I get Israel’s anxiety, literally being surrounded by nations that want to obliterate it from the face of the earth. Still, that doesn’t justify war crimes.
a truce is a pause in warfare - peace is only achieved via surrender. in this particular war, it’ll be only unconditional surrender - and it’s obvious who’s going to be surrendering to whom.
The “simple oppressed people” kinda loses its touch when they daily fire dozens of rockets indiscriminately at Israel. They don’t even have targets, just trying to cause as much destruction as possible.
Gaza is literally a fascist ethnostate while Israel is the most ethnically diverse country within thousands of miles. And Hamas’s method of “fighting back” is murdering thousands of innocents and rejecting any form of peace. You explicitly support terrorism?
gaza doesn’t have the autonomy that comes with being a state - the borders and ports are completely controlled by the IDF. Its also about half children by population. Its essentially more similar to a concentration camp for ethnic minorities than it is a state.
Taking hostages and bombing civillians is not fighting back against the settlers. If the actually did it they would attack the settlers and no innocents. The IDF and israel government are committing a genocide against palestinians but at the same time Hamas is attempting one against israelitea. They are the same level of monsters, just one is stronger than the other.
Their attacks were extremely targeted at IDF soldiers. Hamas civilian casualty rate is far lower than the avarage American rate. Let alone the israeli rate
Only 29 of the 1200 killed were children. It’s very clear they avoided killing them.
Meanwhile israel has genocided 6000 children already.
They tell Palestinians to get out of Northern Gaza (to Southern Gaza) while killing them, then they tell them to get out of Southern Gaza (to where??) while killing them. Tell me how this is not genocide or at the very least ethnic cleansing.
Which side is taking hostages? Which side slaughtered, raped, and kidnapped civilians without even claiming they were going after military targets? Hint: not Israel. If you have the stomach, watch this uncensored Oct 7 footage (warning: blood, gore, and death,) and tell me the ones responding to this are the real terorists, and who has the moral high ground. Note how they shoot people trying to surrender and any civilians they happen to come across.
Israel actually have thousands of “prisoners”, many of which are being held indefinitely without charges or trial. Usually when someone is being held against their will, without reason we call them a hostage. Israel has abducted more Palestinians during the “truce” than they have released. Israel is also seemingly responsible for many of the deaths of Israeli civilians on the 7th of October, including shooting people exiting homes in kibbutzim at the orders of the army.If you want to start sharing graphic, gory, NSFL videos, I have countless videos of Palestinian children without limbs, intact skulls, you name it. No one here is defending Hamas killing civilians. But they difference is that unlike you, we are not defending Israel killing thousands of civilians. The IOF is a terrorist army.
Israel actually have thousands of “prisoners”, many of which are being held indefinitely without charges or trial.
That's war; stay belligerent after defeat, be subjected to your enemy's military courts. They still get more due process than the hostages did.
Israel is also seemingly responsible for many of the deaths of Israeli civilians on the 7th of October, including shooting people exiting homes in kibbutzim at the orders of the army
Friendly fire exists therefore terrorism? Please.
No one here is defending Hamas killing civilians.
You are attempting to justify Hamas when you imply Israel is the greater evil, calling them the terrorists.
unlike you, we are not defending Israel killing thousands of civilians. The IOF is a terrorist army.
That's what happens when you start a war, civilians die as collateral damage. Responding to an organized attack by a hostile government is not terrorism. Not responding is foolish.
No, that’s a war crime. Military courts are only allowed to do the minimal required to maintain order against things like looting. And they must return the justice system to local hands as soon as possible.
54 years is a war crime when that measurement is supposed to be in months at the most.
No, that’s a war crime. Military courts are only allowed to do the minimal required to maintain order against things like looting.
Citation?
And they must return the justice system to local hands as soon as possible. ... 54 years is a war crime when that measurement is supposed to be in months at the most.
While the enemy remains belligerent? It's clearly not yet possible. Palestine has been trying to kill the Jews for at least 70 years and have yet to pacify themselves. That's what needs to happen for them to have autonomy for such things.
You’re either in control or you’re not. You don’t get to have so much control that you can arrest people but then throw your hands up and say it’s a war zone.
And don’t act like Israel’s hands are clean. They used terrorism to get rid of the British troops and pursue the original Nakba. White washing that with some “they just hate us” propaganda is bullshit.
So you have a choice. It’s either a war crime or Apartheid. You’re either in control or you’re not.
Edit- I’m sorry I forgot the citation for you. It’s called the Geneva Convention.
You’re either in control or you’re not. You don’t get to have so much control that you can arrest people but then throw your hands up and say it’s a war zone.
The world isn't as binary as you seem to think it is. Clearly they are doing both, so they can. Control ebbs and flows and can be gained and lost, and can be at values other than 100% or 0%.
And don’t act like Israel’s hands are clean.
I'm not. There's plenty of blood on everyone's hands in a conflict that has gone on this long. Google irgun to see the worst of it. Still, I find Israel to be by far the more sympathetic party. They haven't behaved that way since the Jews became a nation and Israel's civil rights record is far better than those who oppose them today.
They used terrorism to get rid of the British troops
White washing that with some “they just hate us” propaganda is bullshit.
They are literally murdering Israeli civlians en masse. If it were peaceful hate there would be no war.
So you have a choice. It’s either a war crime ...
Still waiting on citations that Israel's military courts count as a war crime.
or Apartheid.
Such definitions pervert the meaning of Apartheid, and depend on treating a belligerent national group like an ethnic group. This is nothing like South Africa; Arabs are 20% of Israeli citizens and are not subject to the same restrictions as the hostile Arab nations trying to kill them.
You might be interested in this video regarding how the UN declaring Israel an Apartheid state went down.
Ah yes 1948. Wasn’t there another war, just a few years earlier where we all determined that war wasn’t a reason to clear ethic populations off of land? Where we all decided that ethno states were bad?
Or was it only when the Germans did it? And I don’t care that there Palestinians also attacked the British. I’m only refuting the idea that Israelis are purely victims.
And in international law there is no 50%. Especially not for Fifty Four Years.
And you really, really don’t want to get into the meeting civilians en masse argument. Far more Palestinian civilians have been murdered by a supposedly professional military and Israeli settlers.
You also don’t get to conflate citizenship with rule. You don’t have to be a citizen to under their rule. Israel rules over 7 million Palestinians. That’s 50%.
Wasn’t there another war, just a few years earlier where we all determined that war wasn’t a reason to clear ethic populations off of land? Where we all decided that ethno states were bad?
Can't attack an ethnostate that's trying to kill you, that makes you as bad as Nazis!
Why can't they just let those nice Palestinians murder them and drive them into the sea without consequence?
I’m only refuting the idea that Israelis are purely victims.
Never made that claim, Hoss. I'm pointing out who the terrorists are and what caused this chapter of the conflict.
And in international law there is no 50%. Especially not for Fifty Four Years.
CITATION?
Far more Palestinian civilians have been murdered by a supposedly professional military and Israeli settlers.
Killed, yes. Murdered, no. Collateral damage in warfare/retaliation for violent attacks by a belligerent nation.
You also don’t get to conflate citizenship with rule. You don’t have to be a citizen to under their rule. Israel rules over 7 million Palestinians. That’s 50%.
Yes, they have administrative control over a hostile belligerent nation that is still trying to kill them after being overwhelmingly defeated time and time again. They refuse to concede and portray themselves as the victims, for some reason people like yourself find it compelling.
Lmao Lemmy deleted my response so this is going to be shorter. (Apparently hitting the vote arrows reloads the page)
The source is the Geneva Convention. It makes statements like, “administrative control over a hostile belligerent” and “Collateral damage in warfare/retaliation” admissions of war crimes, not arguments. We literally hung Nazis for killing civilians as retaliation.
And the entire supposition of having to genocide them first is both Nazis propaganda (since you want to directly reference them) and bullshit. Palestinians have been very clear that they want the 1969 borders and Israel to stop their occupation.
That’s just code for supporting genocide and totalitarianism. The only way to stop a terrorist movement is in fact to engage with it and deal with their grievances in good faith. You only fight them where it is necessary because every fight makes more recruits for their cause.
Too bad the grievances of these specific terrorists is that if you don’t become muslim they’ll kill you.
This isn’t some fucking oppressed minority group just trying to be a good lil’ bean and live their lives. They’re radicals that want to genocide people and convert the world to islam by force and threat of death of you don’t.
Do you think you should engage with domestic right wing US terrorism? To ask the christo-fascists why they are doing what they’re doing and to please stop it? No, they’re insidious because they will die believing they’re 100% in the right and that you trying to prevent them from a full takeover is being “intolerant.”
Fucking insane you people sit here defending the middle east’s version of conservative Christian nationalism. Fuck all religious nutter butters, they’re the crabs in a bucket trying to revert us to the middle ages so they can have their way with society.
The Christian population in Gaza has declined by 2/3 since 2009, when there were about 3,000 total. Today there are fewer than 1000.
Hamas has made a huge push to either get them to convert or leave, and have killed dozens.
And why compare them to al Qaeda? Why not the Taliban?
They have a formal alliance with the Taliban, and both are the governments of their state. Both have pretty much the same platform as well, and both are officially opposed to AQ because AQ competes with them for power.
You are literally considering existing on an undisputed land as “occupation” and self-defense as ethnic cleansing. Just look at numbers of Palestinian population and the whole ethnic cleansing shit I see on the internet falls apart.
Yes, it is undisputed land. How else would you call it? Had Palestinians accepted one of the 14 offers Israel gave them, it could have been Palestinian land but now it is an undisputed land.
Reminder that a majority of Palestinian deaths since October 7th were not members of Hamas
Reminder that hundreds have been murdered in the West Bank since October 7th even though “war” was only declared against Hamas who has no administration over the West Bank
Reminder that a large swath of civilian deaths were children who had no say in the 2006 “election” of Hamas to administer the Gaza strip
Do you have a citation for hundreds of murders in the West Bank? All I can find are articles about individual incidents, and one that mentioned 34 children.
Reminder that a large swath of civilian deaths were children who had no say in the 2006 “election” of Hamas to administer the Gaza strip
Gazan checklist: Elect a terrorist government, support Intifada (70% support,) have lots of kids in miserable conditions while in what critics call an "open air prison," teach your kids to hate and become militants, allow Hamas to hide among your children while starting an unwinnable war, then blame Israel for the inevitable and predictable consequences.
Why do none of you seem to consider Gazan parents responsible for the circumstances of their children?
Your post was basically a blood libel against Palestinians.
I'd love to hear you make this obviously absurd comparison. Tell me more about how personal responsibility for one's offspring is the same as baseless accusation of murdering and using the blood of Christians for rituals. I'll wait.
Blood libel or ritual murder libel (also blood accusation) is an antisemitic canard which falsely accuses Jews of murdering Christians in order to use their blood in the performance of religious rituals.
You are blaming children for the sins of the parents at best. Or absolutely making up accusations out of whole cloth at worst. It’s not 1:1. But it’s still not a good look.
You are blaming children for the sins of the parents at best. Or absolutely making up accusations out of whole cloth at worst. It’s not 1:1. But it’s still not a good look.
So, not like blood libel at all then. Got it.
Parents are in fact responsible for the conditions their children experience. They chose to create them under those circumstances, they chose to stay in those conditions, (before the war started they could have left through Rafah,) and most chose to support Intifada, (citation above,) leading to the current reprisals.
Reminder that multiple Palestinian villages have been ethnically cleansed in the West Bank during the assault on Gaza, by settler militias supported by the IOF.
Reminder that Israel rejected early proposals for hostage exchanges opting instead for carnage on the Palestinian civilians.
Reminder that Israel KNEW of the October 7 attack ahead of time and failed to do anything to stop it.
Reminder that Israel is by all accounts a setler-colonial ethnostate imposing apartheid on the Palestinian people.
You called them an apartheid state, Algeria, (along with Palestine and other Pro-Palestinian Islamic nations,) had something to do with the UN inappropriately defining them as such. Maybe watch the video?
The title is a whataboutism. So no, I’m not going to give it engagement, even to debunk it. Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and imprisonment of Gaza is objectively Apartheid, all on it’s own.
No there wasn’t. Israel has never stopped committing acts of war against Gaza. There was a blockade in place and they never stopped doing strikes. To say there was a truce is fucking farcical.
Reminder that hundreds of Palestinians were murdered during the 9-year “truce” from 2014-2023. Not to mention the land stolen and the homes, farms, and crops destroyed in the West Bank during that period.
Sorry, but I couldn’t find the statistics on rockets fired by Palestinian children. Just some assholes named Hamas, maybe Israel shouldn’t have helped to create them.
Did I ever say they don’t count? The point is that both Israel and Hamas violated the “truce”, making it a stretch to say there was an actual truce prior to October 7th.
Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians suffer as a result of the exchanges between the IDF and Hamas.
Both the IDF and Hamas do not care about their civilians.
Both the IDF and Hamas do not care about killing civilians to achieve their goal.
But the IDF has been doing this for far longer than Hamas and helped to create them in the first place.
This is as terrible an argument as when republicans point to maps showing huge swathes of land colored red as if it’s land that votes instead of the smaller blue areas of land filled with way more people (i.e. actual voters) and claiming that republicans are underrepresented. Lives are what matter and it’s clear who is doing more killing.
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