the entire government will be using [Olvid], the world’s most secure instant messaging system," French digital minister Jean-Noël Barrot confirmed on X.
Clearly they’re very discerning when it comes to their choice of communication apps. 🙄
the client is open source. but the server? not so much.
in any case, if security is the concern… they should probably switch to a government-built system that only runs on gooberment devices. Will it be shitty? absolutely. But data is owned by whoever has the hardware it sits on. if it’s not your device its not your data.
No trust in serversPersistent security even in case of a compromised server
From Olvid website
They are advertising the fact that the security does not depend on the server.
I don’t know what is worth.
Also it’s developed by a French company, I think this is the main argument for the French government, they want to have options that does not rely on US companies.
You’ve misunderstood. With the client code you can be sure that your messages are properly encrypted before leaving the device. If that’s done correctly, you don’t need to trust the server, because it can’t read your messages just like some attacker couldn’t. Signal is pretty similar, they didn’t update the public server source for a few years, and even with the source, we can’t know that that is what they’re actually running. But with a verified build of the client code we can know that our messages are encrypted such that, even if they held on to them until quantum computers became mainstream, they’d still be properly protected.
You’ve misunderstood. With the client code you can be sure that your messages are properly encrypted before leaving the device. If that’s done correctly, you don’t need to trust the server, because it can’t read your messages just like some attacker couldn’t.
It kind of depends on how keys are handled. If the key passes through their servers at all (and it probably does,) then they have access to the keys and sufficient information to decrypt it. it’s possible the app does send keys independent of their server- I don’t know- but I very much doubt it. if they were capable of sending keys without a server, chances are very good they don’t actually need the server for the messages themselves. (which would then ask why they do have a server.)
But with a verified build of the client code we can know that our messages are encrypted such that, even if they held on to them until quantum computers became mainstream, they’d still be properly protected.
Assuming they don’t have the keys. This is not a valid assumption so far as I’m aware.
If the key passes through their servers at all (and it probably does,) then they have access to the keys and sufficient information to decrypt it. it’s possible the app does send keys independent of their server- I don’t know- but I very much doubt it.
The keys shouldn’t be on or go through a server anywhere, that would be an absolute joke.
What makes you think that private keys are being sent anywhere? This app uses a slightly modified version of the Signal protocol (because of course it does), as they describe here, section 27, page 90. Only public keys should ever leave your device, otherwise no amount of showing the code would make it secure. That’s the whole point.
Again, with the client code you should be able to tell that the keys are generated there and not sent anywhere.
As I said, with any app, just because they publish some server code does not mean that that’s what they’re running on their server - for security you have to be sure that the app is sufficiently secure on its own. Even if they were running the exact public code that “didn’t save the keys” the server could harvest them from memory.
Again, with the client code you should be able to tell that the keys are generated there and not sent anywhere
then no one- including the intended recipient- can decode them without that physical device. kinda defeats the point of a messenger service. The codes have to be sent somehow. Either it’s sent along their servers, or the recipient’s device directly.
I really don’t care to get into it. Just know that if you’re using a generic, stock device… any message you send should be considered compromised. depending on the app, and the device in question, it may (but not necessarily) require physical access to the device. but, by it’s very nature, the messenger service meant to be decoded and read. it is fundamentally permissive in nature.
Is it secure enough for France’s needs? Probably. does it mean it’s the best? Probably not.
You seem to be a bit confused about how asymmetric encryption works. There is no need for private keys to be transmitted for a messaging service to work. I encourage you to read about the difference between public and private keys in asymmetric encryption. They are generated in pairs, such that when something is encrypted using a public key, it can only be decrypted using the corresponding private key. So it’s not correct to say that the message can’t be decrypted by the intended recipient - they are in fact the only party who can, but even the sender can not.
the server can store metadata though. who you’re texting, when, how often, etc. - and store that indefinitely. or even store the encrypted message, and when a flaw in the encryption is discovered 10 years later, they’re all readable. their servers could be breached and that info could be siphoned by criminals selling it to the highest bidder.
signals blog had an interesting post about what they’re doing to prevent these issues
Only the client. Though that’s probably enough to make sure messages leave your device suitably encrypted. Depending on the algos it could be quite vulnerable to hndl attacks, though, or (less likely) any undiscovered backdoors in the implementations. Of course, even for Signal one has to trust they’re using the public server code anyway, but at least we know they’re folding in a quantum-resistant algo.
It’s a really big problem for ministers using private messaging services. All of this is supposed to either be public domain or secret. If it’s labelled as Secret it should be officially secret, not just “we didn’t tell anyone about it”.
Accountability and transparency are cornerstones of democracy.
I mean, any program you didn’t make isn’t truly secure from your POV, that’s all there is to it. And since this affects their governmental employees only it’s more than reasonable.
Is that all there is to it? Signal is open source. If they wanted to be extra paranoid they could take and maintain their own branch but that’s a bit silly. Building your own is almost certainly the least secure option
French here. It is all about the IT sovereignty (souveraineté numérique). The idea is to use French solutions in order to limit leaks if confidential information and dealing with other country without worrying about threat of limiting, stopping critical services. Also it is easier to apply EU laws like GPDR. That is why all the French private company dealing with sensitive information (military, cyber security…) are only using French solutions.
Yeah I mean you’re not exactly shedding some deep insight here, it’s very obviously that. While there’s merit to banning WhatsApp, it’s just foolish to ban signal. It’s the best in class for a reason, and it’s open source. France should devote resources to auditing and supporting signal if they really want to throw money to developing secure software.
I get it, but I just don’t get why wouldn’t they just follow other govs’ steps and just set up a matrix server instead. It’s already available and proven.
How is this a bad deal for the public? Tax dollars go directly to the local market and the only people who have to change their behavior are those voluntarily seeking employment in the government.
You have no idea how complex it is to develop E2EE software. At least they could go with self hosted Matrix (in fact they already do in some departments!). Matrix is even designed to be extensible!
What security vulnerabilities does Signal have? I implore them to find a more secure messenger.
Edit: Apparently they’re using Olvid. Claims to be the most secure messenger. Only the clients are open source, not the server code and they’re using a whole different algorithm. I seriously don’t understand why they don’t just partner with Signal, bet these guys don’t even have Signal’s level of quantum resistant encryption.
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