So let me get this straight, a group of people overwhelmingly wish to separate, and the government tries to prevent them from doing that, and you don’t think that’s imperialism? I bet you don’t feel the same about separatism in Catalonia, Donbas, Kurdistan, or the Zapatistas. Classic tankie logic: imperialism good when done by purported “communists.”
I think all regions deserve self-autonomy determined by democratic referendums, unlike the tankies that think the Republic of China should be re-annexed…
That’s good, so do I. But there are other people, people wearing totenkopfs and firing mortars into town squares full of people they call cockroaches for the language they speak, who feel quite differently than us. What is your solution to this, so that peace and democracy can prevail?
Idk, not my place to say. Your solution to oppression of a minority group in one province is full scale war and mass murders of tens of thousands of civilians? Holy shit you guys are warmongerers, America should be paying you! Guarantee you wouldn’t feel the same if America was Russia and Ukraine/Donbas were countries in the Global South in this case tho.
It doesn’t seem like you do given you referred to the current war as an invasion by Russia and Ukraine has been shelling it’s neighbors the LPR and DPR for nearly a decade.
Can you clarify why Russia shouldn’t be involved in the war between Ukraine and its smaller neighbors?
Muddied? There’s this thing called “nuance.” I support Donbas independence, I simply don’t think it gives Russia the right to invade anywhere outside of Donbas, is that that complicated to understand?
So let me get this straight: if the US/Canada were hostile with each other, and the people of Alberta, Canada, were separatists that allied themselves with the US, but the Canadian government refused to recognize Alberta’s sovereignty, you would support a full-scale, deadly American invasion of Canada?
If I considered it justified for the US to enter the war on the side of the separatists, I would absolutely say that it is then justified for the US to invade Canada proper.
To be clear, to be a true analog the province needs to be an ethnic minority which is being targeted by the national government.
Say Alberta was the only majority English speaking province, and Ottawa started putting up statues of a Quebecois terrorist leader from 80 years ago who lead the massacre of 100k English speakers and allied with Hitler during WW2, then they announced that English would be banned from all government facilities including primary schools, and when Alberta tried to secede they sent Nazi paramilitary death squads to harass them and started bombing them daily.
At that point, if the US interceded and went past the Albertan border to attack other military targets in Canada, you would consider that a war of aggression by America against Canada and not them defending their ally, Alberta?
At that point, if the US interceded and went past the Albertan border to attack other military targets in Canada, you would consider that a war of aggression by America against Canada and not them defending their ally, Alberta?
If America’s massacring civilians in Ottawa and Toronto? Yes, of course I would. Any sane person would. Stay in Alberta.
You people call yourselves anti-war? I think you’re the real liberals here.
Sounds like you’re the one who’s pro-war whenever it’s convenient for you. When it’s not convenient, you just say “that’s different!” And refuse to elaborate.
How did Russia invade the Donbas by putting troops in it after being invited? Please admit that the answer is that you actually believe the Donbas is Ukraine and don’t care about its people’s self determination so I can quit asking you this question that you have been dodging for like an hour now.
When 99.9% of people who unironically use the word tankie, and think that ‘fascist’ means ‘anything I don’t like’, also fiercely oppose Donbas independence, and when the one I’m talking to is also refusing to just give a clear answer, I’m not about to say I’m in the wrong for asking some clarifying questions.
Also, why doesn’t it give Russia the right to invade? Was it wrong for the allies to invade Germany proper during WW2?
when the one I’m talking to is also refusing to just give a clear answer
I very clearly said I supported their independence, but okay.
Also, why doesn’t it give Russia the right to invade?
So let me get this straight, you support civilians being massacred and innocent lives being lost? You really think Ukraine is on the same level of Nazi fucking Germany? Honestly I wouldn’t even much of a problem if they just invaded Donbas but they’re invading the whole fucking country and causing so much death and destruction. How is that justified? How can you call yourself anti-war and anti-imperialism and justify a brutal invasion? Some true colors being shown…
you support civilians being massacred and innocent lives being lost?
no, this was why the people’s republics of donetsk and luhansk invited military aid, and was the cause behind the Minsk agreements as well as Russia recognizing the Donbas republics
I very clearly said I supported their independence, but okay.
But you are clearly being deceitful, just in this comment you basically admit that you don’t actually support their independence.
Look:
Honestly I wouldn’t even much of a problem if they just invaded Donbas
The DPR and LPR invited Russia. How could they have “just invaded Donbas.”
Please explain
A) The Donbas isn’t really independent and you consider it Ukrainian property. **(Surely not, you insist that this isn’t the case)**B) You consider soldiers who are in a foreign country to be invaders regardless of the relationship of the two states? **(Can’t be this or the US is invading half the planet right this second, including Taiwan)**C) ???
Please enlighten us.
This isn’t even getting into the point that multiple people made that you’ve ignored for half an hour, that once you’re in a war with someone who wants to conquer you, sending your soldiers into their territory isn’t an act of aggression, otherwise the US and the Soviets aggressed against the Nazis, which only an actual Nazi would claim.
(To be clear, I don’t think you’re a Nazi, just an intellectually dishonest liberal).
Wait, do you support Donbas self rule or not? Are they not allowed to invite their ally (Russia) to support them militarily in a war of aggression by their neighbor, Ukraine?
The Civil War was imperialism but it was good imperialism. Fascist breakaways are a bit different: the Union taking over the South was infringing on their self-governance, but that’s a good thing, Confederates were pure evil. It’s like after WWII and Axis powers became occupied, could you technically call that colonialism? Maybe, but they needed to be.
If Taiwan was blatantly fascistic, genocidal, had slavery, etc. I would support China colonizing them… but they aren’t. They’re neoliberal (much like China), which is lame, but they’re not a Nazi state. Remind me, who was the first in Asia to legalize gay marriage?
Okay, that’s consistent. Given that the modern incarnation of Taiwan was founded as a fascistic & genocidal settler colony, what was the timepoint at which a decisive end to the Chinese Civil War shifted from acceptable to unacceptable in your eyes?
And are they a military dictatorship today? Even when they were, they weren’t a threat to world peace or humanity like the Confederacy or the Japanese Empire. By that logic do you think the US military should intervene in African military dictatorships?
The KMT was certainly a threat to Formosans, and to leftists living in the island they’d seized.
If the Confederacy had survived the war as rump state in Southern Florida and continued to claim to rule the entire US South and in the mid nineties claimed to be a democracy and then finally elected a non-military president in the aughts, would you call the US imperialist for not recognizing the Confederacy?
Almost like the reason some of the population is because they stole from the Chinese people and fled to the island when the people fought back. The oppressor doesn’t deserve to get to pick to be independent
I bet you don’t feel the same about separatism in Catalonia, Donbas, Kurdistan, or the Zapatistas.
Literally none of those are imperialism. Imperialism isn’t having a region want independence. Do you think Scotland not being allowed to have a vote is imperialism?
No it isn’t. The status quo is that Taiwan is a region of China, independently governed. This is the case for MANY places around the world, here in the UK for example we have Scottish and Welsh governments, independent of the UK government. Scotland has its own parliament. Does that make it independent? Fuck no it doesn’t and there’s no mechanism for it to leave either.
There are MORE people in Scotland that want Scottish independence than Taiwan. Chew on that for a bit.
This is semantics. You’re playing with the difference between independent as a country and independent in governance, two different things. You’re not participating in good faith, as per usual.
No it fucking doesn’t, because that’s what it is right fucking now. You can’t be a “separatist” if you already have that. You’re just a status quo-ist.
Fuck me talking to nazis hurts, you’re all unbelievably uneducated.
this is just not true. the overwhelming majority want a return to the status quo, a status quo that was very consistently gravitating towards china before the US decided to stir shit using its DPP puppets. the taiwanese people are perfectly capable of understanding which side their bread is buttered on and that their families cannot subsist on a diet of freedom and democracy.
If you actually read it you would know the vast majority either want to keep the self-governance or become fully independent (50%). Both of those are some form of separatism, even if most of them don’t want anything radical that could trigger a war.
jfc, points for trying to turn this into a semantics game but sorry, fuck you
lets look at bbc, first result we get when we search "台独民意调查“ on google.hk because apparently google.tw is too spicy for google’s techbro commissariat. whatever, close enough:
even tries to reframe it by breaking up de facto status quo supporters into two camps but plurality still supports status quo
how about cn language natopedia
2020, NCCU (same as the bbc study):
“尽快独立”占7.4%
“偏向独立”占27.7%，为历年最高
“永远维持现状”占23.6%
“维持现状再决定”的民众比例持续下降至28.7%
“尽快统一”占0.7%创下新低
2021, united news:
“尽快独立”占18%
“维持现况再独立”占16%
“永远维持现状”占51%
“维持现状再统一”占6%
“尽快统一”占4%
“无意见”占3%
2022, ‘taiwanese public opinion foundation’ (read: cia cutout):
“坚持台湾独立”占27.3%
“赞成但不坚持台湾独立”占22.8%
“维持现状但偏台湾独立”占11.3%
“永远维持现状”占8.4%
“维持现状但偏两岸统一”占6.0%
“赞成但不坚持两岸统一”占9.4%
“坚持两岸统一”占2.4%
look at how they progressively split the status quo category (the size of which does not demonstrably change) into smaller and smaller demos to try and push an agenda
let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and more closely examine what is obviously the most compromised source here. this is the cia cutout’s (shitty and completely unprofessional) paper from this year. they’d probably lose funding if they put something as damning as actual independence vs status quo numbers out there so they decided to go with plausibly deniable second order opinion sets and STILL get blown the fuck out
just take the L dude, taiwanese are completely cognizant of the fact they’re being primed to be the next ukraine and most of them understandably want no part of that
Yes, they moved there and committed ethnic cleansing against the indigenous people of the island. They looted China, lost the civil war and then killed natives when they fled to Taipei.
Go back to sucking Winnie the Pooh’s cock. Too bad he’s too scared to ever actually do anything. He knows that he’s just a little dictator that can only impress or oppress his own people. It would be funny to see how hard you fail, just like you did the last time you decided to pick a fight with your neighbor, Vietnam.
No racism there. I can not be racist against my own family member, which you are. You just wanna wave that card because you think it will work. That was pure anti-CCCP sentiment because your entire dictatorship is nothing more than a paper tiger, just like the other wannabe superpower, Ruzzia. You’re an authoritarian dictatorship, the US is imperialistic, the Ruzzians are fascists. Of the three the only one that is even worth negotiating with is the US, because at least they will pay lip service to their people, unlike the genocidal CCCP and Moscow.
China was nothing but a bully to their neighbors for 4500 years and you want to claim that you aren’t a wannabe bully because you got your face smashed in 50 years ago by Vietnam, and you haven’t dared to try since? Get out of here with that shit. You aren’t communist. You aren’t capitalist. You’re still Han bullys, and just waiting to genocide everyone that isn’t. Just ask the Uigers.
The difference now is that the rest of the world won’t let you, and you’re scared of trying because you fell as a power over 100 years ago, have never caught up, and though you tried hard your leaders ensured you’ll never surpass the US. You got close. That one child policy really bit you guys in the ass.
Your comment is literally filled with racist comments agaisnt Chinese people to the brim. I guess that makes sense as it seems you have a history of racist remarks. CCCP? Haha, it seems you don’t know the name nor can you write
Fox News and Russian/CCP media use the same double talk, enemy at the gates, boogie man bad speak. Supporting Russian aggression in Ukraine or Chinese aggression in Taiwan is the as supporting American agression in the middle east. It all has the same stink.
Lol, I went to high school in the years after 911 and had trash thrown at me and had to have a meeting with the principal when I stopped saluting the flag. I felt like everyone lost their minds and were replaced by pod people. If you’re going to make personal attacks, take a bit of time to check the comment history of who you’re insulating. I’ve never once simped for America.
Something to consider about western propaganda is that it has many mouths saying the same thing. If fucks news and similar cranks were the only ones peddling the China bad shit, you would see more division along the kayfabe lines between the demonrats and the rethuglicans.
Yea, it feels like 4chan suddenly saw the light and then turned far-left all at once. They act like what the far right imagines the left to be like, but just looks like really bad anti-leftist propaganda, or they’re just tankies :/ some hexbears are ok, though, but most here are just discrediting themselves by throwing the propaganda handbook at the passersby.
This isn’t debate club nerd. Nobody is required to be nice to you. We can both offer well intentioned arguements, and also engage in the simple pleasure of calling people dipshits.
Ok when the word “shitlib” is used here we’re referring to smug, rude, arrogant, reddit-brained imbeciles who functionally support imperialism, right wing apologia, and casual bigotry. They also operate in bad faith from the get go.
Uneducated progressive “liberals” who are nonetheless openminded and empathetic are not the people who this term refers to.
Uneducated progressive “liberals” who are nonetheless openminded and empathetic are not the people who this term refers to.
This still feels a little
smug, rude, arrogant
But I’ll take it, I’m certainly not an expert on Marxism. It’s a useful method of inquiry oftentimes, but there are other worthy worldviews and subjects to spend time on that hardly make me uneducated.
I wasn’t referring to you in particular, I was referring to describing types of “liberals” in general. I am not implying that there is something inherently wrong with being uneducated. Everybody is uneducated in a variety of fields outside of their own expertise, such as nuclear physics, foraging, farming, etc. Similarly, most american progressives simply do not know what the terms “left” and “right” mean in a political context, therefore, they are uneducated. Rather, I was implying that these progressives are well meaning, good-hearted people who just need a bit more knowledge as to where they could direct their energy towards political change. I apologize if it came off as condescending, maybe I should have used the term “unactivated” or “new to politics”.
but there are other worthy worldviews and subjects to spend time on that hardly make me uneducated
Thats good, keep reading. If you are interested in politics then I would recommend reading the works of Micheal Parenti.
Yeah, mostly agree, people are kept from thinking and complaining too much by being overworked, stressed, distracted, manipulated, demotivated, denied access, captured by cults, etc :/ sooo … fuck IP law and let’s get pirating, books ain’t gonna read themselves :D
Yea, it feels like 4chan suddenly saw the light and then turned far-left all at once
Exactly this. They’re running around spewing barely-sensical insults acting like they’re dunking on people, but all their really doing is turning off anyone who was ever possibly sympathetic to their cause. And are completely un-informed on top of that
Yes. You’re starting to get it. Being willfully uninformed and forcefully pushing that uninformed view in an organized way is suspicious. Ergo the comparison to the Maga’s and anti-vaxxers. 🤦
I know right! How come there are so, so many people defending China here? I thought they were the minority. Ugh. When I was back on Reddit comments like those would always be downvoted to hell.
When I was back on Reddit comments like those would always be downvoted to hell.
It might be worth keeping in mind that Reddit has, for several years now, biased its moderation policy against the sort of voices who would object to OP, creating a neoliberal echochamber across most of the website.
It’s a shock to find out that the world view instilled in you as common and sensical is neither.
It’s tough to face up to that conditioning, but you can do it if you try, and if you don’t take it personally. It’s not your fault you were filled with imperialist lies, but it will be your fault if you don’t reflect
The issue is there are a much higher percentage here because brigading wasn’t allowed on reddit so they’d be banned for this type of activity. They come here and can do what they want, which is fine as long as it doesn’t hurt other people doing what they want, which in this case is arguably happening because it clutters the comments with the same thing repeated over and over, and they are organized so it’s all up voted. This doesn’t make them the majority opinion though. It makes them the organized opinion. They are not the majority by any means, but they will make sure to come to China’s defence whenever it’s mentioned, where others won’t bother.
Yeah! It’s kind of sketchy how most hexbear.net comments here have >10 upvotes
edit: it’s also sketchy that over 95% of comments on this post are from hexbear.net, while on the average Lemmy post (not on lemmy.world) there would only be less than 20%
It may be hard to fathom for someone who’s so used to Reddit, but Hexbear users really do have a deep love for each other. Also we are really really ridiculously online.
This is kind of analogous to the “CCP is falsifying all of its own data” allegation. You can cling to some sort of dogmatic narrative like Hexbear inflating its stats à la r/the_donald, that’s exceedingly difficult to prove or draw anything conclusive from, or you can take a close look at it and see the reality that lines up with the stats.
Brigading was very much allowed on Reddit as long as it didn’t push the neoliberal imperialist status quo. Since the biggest leftist subs were banned or quarantined the shitheap of a website has seen an unceasing drumbeat of “China bad” and Cold War 2.0 propaganda, with any dissenting opinion piled on and follows across subs and threads. Often for weeks.
Rules only exist to the extent they are enforced. Words aren’t magical. Only the directed use of power gives rules reality, everything else is just so much pablum.
you left a Astro Turfed , hardcore censored Faschist Imperialistic Place that spends its time telling you US lies about its enemies … things are Diffrent when you leave your hole , because You changed location , you now meet “non Rediitors” and Communist and all else thats forbidden on Reddit… , thereby you are Accuring an new Perspective …
If its Scary for you then you need to run back where you came from … where the Yellow Peril rules …
You are so far right that you call anything and everything to your left astroturfing. You’ve been in a bubble for so long that it’s a culture shock when you meet actual leftists.
Oh, yes. Actual leftists that somehow support every action of a particular nation. Actual leftists who don’t mind government control of information and gives incentives for supporting them publicly. Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to. Yep, totally sounds like actual leftists to me…
Actual leftists who don’t mind government control of information
Yes, actual leftists. I’m going to quote to you some Marx. This is from Chapter 2 of the Communist Manifesto which is basically a 30 page pamphlet, I suggest you read it. I want you to pay particular attention to number 6.
The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.
Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
As you can see, nothing here is at odds with that.
Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to.
What groups? If you’re about to use Adrian Zenz as a source you are a joke. If you’re instead claiming that working to abolish the existence of the bourgeoisie is a bad thing you are a clown.
I don’t understand how people don’t understand that control of the means of communication in the hands of the proletariat is a MUST to create a DOTP. Who the fuck do they think owns the media? The proles? Fuck no, the bourgeoisie own the media. It’s ALL their media.
To empower the proletariat in the transitionary socialist state you MUST remove the advantages of the bourgeoisie. This is one of the biggest of them.
Ah but don’t you see that removing the knife from your throat before fighting The Caped Throatstabber makes you just as bad as him, because of human nature or something?
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries
Also note this part:
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production…
Notice, “in the beginning.” Is China socialist or not? It is not the begining. The need to control the means of communication, as well as most of the rest of the goals, is to gain power over the bourgeoisie and place the power into the hands of the people. The means of communication must be seized in order to empower the people to communicate without their interference. How is the control that China has over communication providing for that and not the bourgeoisie itself controlling the media to prevent the people from communicating?
“Freedom of the press” is another of the principal slogans of “pure democracy”. And here, too, the workers know — and socialists everywhere have admitted it millions of times — that this freedom is a deception while the best printing presses and the biggest stocks of paper are appropriated by the capitalists and while capitalist rule over the press remains, a rule that is manifested throughout the world all the more strikingly, sharply, and cynically, the more democracy and the republican system are developed, as in America for example.
The first thing to do to win real equality and genuine democracy for the working people, for the workers and peasants, is to deprive capital of the possibility of hiring writers, buying up publishing houses, and hiring newspapers. And to do that the capitalists and exploiters have to be overthrown and their resistance suppressed.
The capitalists have always used the term ‘freedom’ to mean freedom for the rich to get richer and for the workers to starve to death.
In capitalist usage, freedom of the press means freedom of the rich to bribe the press, freedom to use their wealth to shape and fabricate so-called public opinion.
In this respect, too, the defenders of ‘pure democracy’ prove to be defenders of an utterly foul and venal system that gives the rich control over the mass media. They prove to be deceivers of the people who, with the aid of plausible, fine-sounding, but thoroughly false phrases, divert them from the concrete historical task of liberating the press from capitalist enslavement.
Yes, this is exactly what I said. The control needs to be taken away from the capitalist class who control it in most places. The goal after the bourgeoisie are removed from control is for the people to have control though, not some new bourgeoisie.
Socialism is the transitionary state between capitalism and communism. It exists in a state of warfare between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie.
We are very far away from defeating capitalism and such measures will remain in place until we have defeated it globally. What the fuck are you thinking? “Yes I want to give billionaires the ability to own media in my proletarian state so they can spew garbage propaganda until their counter-revolution succeeds”. Are you out of your mind? What exactly do you gain from this? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. All you are advocating for is empowering the bourgeoisie to crush and re-exploit you.
Ah, yes. China is definitely trying to defeat capitalism globally by opening and expanding special economic zones. If anything, China has become more capitalist (because it makes the current bourgeoisie who control the “communist” government more money). Xi Jinping seems to have an estimated value of at least $1 billion USD. He’s not of the working class. He’s from the political class.
Yes. It is. Your lack of understanding about what their tactics are is a personal failure on your part to seek out the information, not a failure on their part to continue to pursue socialism.
Xi Jinping seems to have an estimated value of at least $1 billion USD. He’s not of the working class. He’s from the political class.
Xi Jinping grew up in a literal fucking cave. This claim is akin to all the estimates of Stalins worth that literally just decided he owned everything that the state owns. Your “”“source”“” for this is capitalist finance blogs after you googled “xi jinping net worth” that don’t break down this figure whatsoever. They all just claim it. It’s literally the embodiment of:
He lived in a cave for some time because his father lost political favor, not because they were poor. He is of the political class. That’s unquestionable. His net worth isn’t public, though guesses can be made from the value of stocks his family can own, which isn’t insignificant. Him “growing up in a cave” is because of his political class standing, not because he was a poor worker.
(It also wasn’t just a cave, but a building constructed of a cave.)
This is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your sentence lmao
Him “growing up in a cave” is because of his political class standing, not because he was a poor worker.
Bro they were poor as fuck what are you talking about.
(It also wasn’t just a cave, but a building constructed of a cave.)
What the fuck do you think cave houses are? Is this literally the first time you’ve ever seen one? Are you really admitting to being that uneducated? Cave homes still have doors and windows nitwit. Doesn’t change the fact it’s still literally a 1 room cave with a bed shared by 4 fucking people.
“They’re not poor they just had to share a single bed between 4 people and walk 3 miles for water” is a shitty racist attempt at trying to maintain your position instead of actually taking on board new information you blatantly didn’t know until just now.
The topic at hand is Western media drumming up support for the US’s next foreign policy disaster. The same way they did for Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Vietnam and so, so many others. I would have called this bullshit before I became a communist. You don’t need Marxist theory to see through the bullshit, just object permanence.
Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to.
Some people should be removed from society based on the groups they belong to. Nazis, for example. Pedophiles, probably. And definitely people who put pineapple on pizza.
No, they should be removed from society based on what they want to do. I don’t think the children of nazis should be removed just because they’re a part of that group.
Ideological belief is not a trait that is automatically passed on to children. Children of Liberals aren’t automatically liberals. Children of conservatives aren’t automatically conservatives.
Yes it is. Your failure to understand China’s structure and its goals is a personal failure on your part to seek that information, the information is out there.
If reading is too much for you (I suspect it is or you wouldn’t hold this opinion) then here is a very brief video by Professor Richard Wolff where he cites China as responsible for the globally rising interest in marxism.
If alternatively your position is that marxism is not leftist, you are a right wing clown and politically illiterate.
I am not near left or right, a 1 line axis is not enough to put all the political positions into account.
After reading the first link, socialism is kindof interesting at its core, but in china you have a person that controls eveything, China is a totalitarian state capitalist system. While Socialism would give people freedom, China is doing the opposite. I am not fully invested into this topic but you can’t tell me that stealing Money from bank accounts, allowing companies to do stupid investments that will become waste just to rise some numbers. Generally forbiding the fact that you have issues (disabled) or are different (religion or sexuality) is really just showing how similar this is to Hitlers time.
In Germany we have the Bundestag and its neither leftist or rightist as you elect the group you like which can be left-ist or right-ist, a group of multiple groups will be build for the few years that have together 50%. So if there is onr far-right group or far-left one, they won’t be able to actually do all the harm except people elect that group 50%.
Besides having every few years either same or slight different groups that regime, there is also the Grundgesetz which protect the Human rights at its core and is not changable except all 2 buildings and 1 person allow for this. With this, everthing should be possible while having freedom.
But for China I really don’t know what is the right thing. Its no different than America with capitalism at many levels because both intoxicate the human rights and nature environment. Somethinf like a Bundestag for China doesn’t seem like a great idea if it would be the main thing, because China wants to grow and the Bundestag is too slow for direct and instant changes. But without, you can see corruption at many corners in China.
So you are ignorant. Its ok we have all been there. To live is to learn. I would have an essay very similar to yours a couple years ago. Then I started doing some reading.
Essentially leftism v rightism boils down to either you think people all all equals and should be treated equally regardless or you believe some people are superior to others and should get to treat others as lesser. Its simple as that.
You also said “Its ok” and included that “all” have been there but its only you and the bubble community you live in like you are some superior peace of ****
If you say something is simple, then you are actually ignorant,
I didn’t say all of politics is simple. I said right vs Left is simple. Its an classification system made for the sole purpose of making a complex thing simple.
Its like you are getting hostile at me for saying “using google translate is simple” and saying “Translation is super hard. Learning a new language takes years and even then the subtleties of idioms and the nuance of culture play a significant role in how people speak. bridging the gap between two languages is super complex”
You also said “Its ok” and included that “all” have been there but its only you and the bubble community you live in like you are some superior peace of ****
I’m sorry if my tone came off as condescending but is Understanding not superior to ignorance? Ignorance is a natural state. We naturally transition from ignorance into understanding on many subjects through out our lives. There is no shame in that. clinging to ignorance however is shameful. Realizing you are ignorant is the first step to understanding. The next step is finding more information. I was just trying to encourage you. No need to be so defensive.
The part that you see me ignorant is the problem. Just because I don’t believe in socialism or capitalism or left vs right doesn’t mean I am ignorant. You somehow had an exam about leftism and rightism which did not include more standpoints because your exam topic was just left vs right. It feels like you are literally stuck in this one knowledge and can’t accept other statements. Its also called Dunning Kruger effect.
Just because I don’t believe in socialism or capitalism or left vs right doesn’t mean I am ignorant.
Just because you don’t believe in something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You live in a world where the right left political spectrum exists and you exist on that spectrum whether you know it or not. If there was a classification system for how spicy people like their food and someone called you a “spice chungus” your ignorance to the term and rankling scale would not change the level of spice you like or the fact that that has the name “spice chungus.”
You seem hung up on the word ignorant. I’m not trying to say you are stupid. I’m not saying you are ignorant in general. I’m just saying you seem to be ignorant of Politics. Ignorance is the state of not knowing. It does have a negative connotation but that is just because Knowing things is more is generally regarded as better than not knowing things.
Knowing that you don’t know is a good place to start but only if you try to learn more. Again I am just trying to encourage you to learn more.
I guess you missed the point that one person has the decision to control everything, of course there will be different groups controlling the details, but this is the person who is able to change. Just saying that I should read is pretty much stupid to say, you also just could say nothing, the message would be equal.
But i just gonna be you for a moment: If you do not believe this, you need to do a lot more reading.
Just send me your articles or whatever to justify whatever you mean and don’t be a dick.
How did you come to the conclusion that one person has the decision to control everything in China, an arrangement that has never existed anywhere in history, even actual non democratic dictatorships (which China isn’t)
I guess you missed the point that one person has the decision to control everything
No, he’s saying you’re wrong (and you are). In China there isn’t one person who controls everything. They have millions of elected officials, you don’t have any clue what you’re talking about.
I was curious what you were talking about as there are only 10 comments through Beehaw so I checked out the original. It’s overwhelmingly coming from hexbear.net which we’ve defederated from.
Expressing how you feel about China is fine. Calling someone else a “paranoid weirdo” is not. That’s just plain rude and disrespectful.
Edit: I feel like I should make it extra clear that I am not defending myself because several people think that I’m whining for myself. The one called a “paranoid weirdo” was not me.
What do you mean by “me”? I wasn’t even the one being disrespected. I was merely speaking out for someone else. BTW no one on this thread was ever disrespectful to the 1.3 billion Chinese people. They were disrespectful to their government.
me , thomas muntzer ,pastor 1489 – 1525 , you shouldnt be disrespectfull to me , i am not chinese , i am white ! dont forget your social conditioning , reddit would not approve of this behaviour…
There’s 1.3 billion people in this thread who are supporting the PRC? There aren’t even 1.3 billion people in China supporting China. How is talking about all the nonsense in this thread being disrespectful to anyone, let alone 1.3 billion people?
For the survey team, there are a number of possible explanations for why Chinese respondents view the central government in Beijing so favorably. According to Saich, a few factors include the proximity of central government from rural citizens, as well as highly positive news proliferated throughout the country.
This result supports the findings of more recent shorter-term surveys in China, and reinforces long-held patterns of citizens reporting local grievances to Beijing in hopes of central government action. “I think citizens often hear that the central government has introduced a raft of new policies, then get frustrated when they don’t always see the results of such policy proclamations, but they think it must be because of malfeasance or foot-dragging by the local government,” said Saich.
Compared to the relatively high satisfaction rates with Beijing, respondents held considerably less favorable views toward local government. At the township level, the lowest level of government surveyed, only 11.3 percent of respondents reported that they were “very satisfied.”
Again, the U.S. reveals quite a different story. “American trust surveys over time show a clear distinction between low levels of trust towards the federal government, but a strong belief and faith in the power of local government — at the most local level, those positions may be filled by part-time volunteers who are a part of your everyday life,” said Cunningham. This dichotomy is highlighted by a 2017 Gallup poll, where 70 percent of U.S. respondents had a “great” or “fair” amount of trust in local government.
Saich contends that the lack of trust in local governments in China is due to the fact that they provide the vast majority of services to the Chinese people. This trust deficit was compounded by the 1994 tax reforms, which garnered a substantially larger share of total national tax revenues for the central government. Local governments, despite being faced with declining revenues, were still on the hook for providing the bulk of public services throughout China.
“Local governments were caught between dropping tax revenue and rising expenditures,” Cunningham said. “Many local governments then had to turn to ad-hoc extra budgetary fees to close the budget gap. I think that has consistently undermined trust at the local level.”
The national government leaves the local government responsible for providing services, fucks them over, then convinces the people that it’s the local governments fault because they control the media. Of course they approve of the national government, though not the local at all so…
Also, a large part of the approval that this article states is because most of the people of China “are only a generation removed from an era of chronic food shortages and significant social and economic instability.” Its easy to improve people’s lives if they’re starting from a shitty position. We’ll see how that changes now that they’re playing in the big leagues.
So you were really going to tell someone they’re cherrypicking and quoting a survey that said only 11% of people were “very satisfied” and just hope no one looked through your wall of text, huh?
China just went through a period where in a single generation they eliminated more poverty than any other country in history (save the USSR). Why is it so hard for you to believe that children born subsistence farmers would have a positive view of their government when they’re middle classed and middle aged?
Why did you accuse me of not reading when my ability to humiliate you for being a GUTLESS FUCKING LIAR hinged on my ability to point out something in the middle of that text? Are you stupid?
Why are you accusing me of not reading and then making it clear that you aren’t reading well enough to know who the fuck you’re talking to? Are you stupid?
Out of all the people who replied to you and humiliated you for being an unread and incurious LIB including myself, why are you ignoring literally everything everyone said and clinging to just three words of only my comment “wall of text”?
I advise you to not waste your time arguing with these people. It’s a total waste of time. You can’t win an argument with stubborn people. Don’t be like me who wasted hours arguing with hexbear tankies. Just downvote them then go somewhere else on Lemmy.
Its easy to improve people’s lives if they’re starting from a shitty position. We’ll see how that changes now that they’re playing in the big leagues.
When’s capitalism planning to do that for everyone in the global south then? If you remove china from the statistics on poverty alleviation poverty has been almost stagnant for the last 50 years. China is responsible for almost all of the vaunted “improvement” in poverty. And they’ve done it without bombing dozens of countries per decade!
You said there weren’t 1.3 billion people in China who supported the PRC. Harvard says you were wrong. We’re not talking about the minutiae of Chinese governance here, we’re talking about foreign policy.
PS: If you dig into the numbers (page 3 of the report, aka page 6 in the PDF), 70% of people are fairly or very satisfied with their township governments, so don’t be taken in by the Harvard cope–it really is bullshit.
Chauvinism? Wrong word choice. It’s chauvinism when you go around supporting one group from a position of prejudice, not when you attack some group, which wasn’t happening anyway. Questioning if something is happening organically isn’t the same as saying it’s bad. Skepticism is usually a virtue. Don’t accept everything you see and are told, and don’t accept that it’s happening by accident.
Insisting that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid agent of spooky foreigners is being a paranoid weirdo. Not to mention, plain rude and disrespectful.
Possibly, I didn’t look where they’re all from, nor do I know what hexbear is or why it’s significant. Sounds like some kind of intra-Lemmy drama which I’m not too interested in. Just noticed a fair amount, lets say…not totally organic, seemingly agenda pushing comments.
Edit: Forget my previous comment. I now see the problem with Hexbear.
Hexbear is a large, leftist instance, that just recently federated, and most of us are pro-China. We’re not bots and we’re not getting paid, but we’re not shy about our political views. That’s the reason you’re suddenly seeing a bunch more comments defending China.
No it’s when there’s mysteriously dozens of comments just magically showing up that are contrary to the vastly popular opinion on only one contentious issue, that serve the best interests of an entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion through fake grassroots posting. Also that entity has a fragile ego and a long history of online manipulation…oh and also coincidentally they are all coming from the same server
I don’t know if the server you are talking about is hexbear, but they recently federated and are one of the oldest lemmy instances. Lemmygrad also has been existing a long time before lemmy became as popular as it is today.
No it’s when there’s mysteriously dozens of comments just magically showing up that are contrary to the vastly popular opinion on only one contentious issue, that serve the best interests of an entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion
I love how liberals think anybody who’s outside of their echo chamber must be a paid shill. It’s absolutely inconceivable to them that there is a significant amount of people who have contrary opinions.
Insult that has no tether to the topic at hand, inline with your other comments that just make vague allusions that could be applied to any topic. Found the bot.
Least deranged response after being confronted with the existential horror that capitalism causes within us and being asked to cast it aside, choosing instead to bathe in the waters of the imperial core like the river of Styx, forgetting anything else exists, freeing oneself of responsibility for their fellow human, untethered by compassion and hope for the future
Yes, anyone with half a brain can see that people from a leftist instance are contributing leftist opinions to a space they just federated with. What were you expecting?
we federated , so now the stupid Imperialsit lies show up in Hexbear , they obviously can not stay , whats you proplem with beeing Corrected ? Do you want to live in Lies Mr. Jesus ? Because you can not be Bothered to do a ideum of research before running wild with the Mob Mr. Jesus ? , you want to forbide our ?
You sound very Priveldged , trying to impose your ignorance on others , whos your Dad ?
You sound just like every other idiot that says that. Trumpers, anti-vaxxers and the like. If you have to look around for yOur Own rEsEaRcH that lines up with what you want it to say, it’s because it’s not based in facts. You guys seem to honestly think you sound smart…smh
also like every other Iraq war Opponents , Vietnam war opponents, Imperialism Opponents ,Julian Assage loyalist etc… dont forget them !
Do you accept “Dissent” at all ? and are you Capable of Processing new information ?
this is REALLY Taiwans Air identification Zone . it is NOT the Taiwanese Airspace , this is a Factuall basis. Please Just Process this new Information , the Article is really missleading , the babycrying will stop after a while , trust me . You are really wrong and most people can comprehend that after a while.
Again, learn what federation is, and while you’re at it, learn that racist white westerners like you are not actually “the vast popular opinion”. You’re just used to reddit, where disagreement is suppressed, so now that you’re in a space where genuine different opinion is allowed, you’re desperate into paranoia.
You’re the only one who has brought up race and are speculating what mine must be. I’m not the racist one in this conversation and I’m not the reddit-y one either. I’m not a refugee, I left that shitty site years ago bot.
There are non-white people who don’t like China because of their aggression and obvious leanings towards imperialism. I’ve got friends and family all over Eastern Asia and their countries are constantly getting into territorial spats with China, including in Japan, the Philippines, and even communist Vietnam, not to Taiwan.
You guys just love China because they represent an alternative to the western US order. Maybe if they nationalized more industries, taxed their rich more, helped their workers with universal health care, and helped their oppressed neighbors instead of shooting at them and trying to take their territory, they would be more exciting to root for. Basically, if they were more like Cuba.
Sure, their are non white people with criticisms of China, but his attitude went well beyond that; saying “the vast majority opinion” on China is the reddit propaganda line is absolutely discounting the opinion of non westerners, and I’m sorry, but that definitely comes from a place of racism.
Like, I don’t ‘love’ China, and I agree that much of their appeal is that they’re an alternative to Western hegemony. It would be great if they were more like Cuba. But I think there’s a world of difference between misgivings like that, and the liberal view that China is so evil that anyone who says anything good about them is a paid bot.
entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion
why would any foreign political entity waste its valuable english proficient resources on astroturfing an online backwater filled with politically illiterate nobodies? peak liberal solipsism
It would appear that way yes…and as mentioned, they have a history of having extremely thin skin and doing exactly that. So do I expect some group to do the exact thing they have always done? Yes. Yes I do.
I would like to ask you to employ some critical thinking here. Setting aside that the people responding to you have much better English than even a pretty high-level English speaker coming from Mandarin, most of these accounts have months or years of post histories spent almost entirely talking to each other on their previously un-federated instance, including in some cases very harsh arguing, as well as talking about the US on a personal level with intimate detail (and/or whatever other country they say they are from). Do you really believe the most simple answer is that this is all kabuki theater by the CPC to astroturf an obscure collection of websites by wasting a ridiculous amount of resources and the time of highly English-fluent actors? vs just “some people think differently from you”?
If you concede this point, then I would like to ask you to just consider for a moment the implications of the fact that you took the much more absurd and flimsy explanation as though it was just the common-sense explanation. What does that say about the way that you conceptualize the world and what people believe?
And by “have a history of it” you mean "I’ve been told it so many times in the western echo chambers I hang out it that I just implicitly believe it.
Mate, you’ve already had it explained to you where we’re coming from, but apparently the idea of people who genuinely disagree with you is so fucking foreign to you that your redditor brain literally cannot process it, so you continue to descend into paranoid delusion.
Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it.
Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least.
When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense.
The irony of someone whose baseline for opinion making was reddit-logo leaving that place and feeling all of a sudden as if the discussion is being manipulated data-laughing
Unfortunately they’re probably real people. Most of Lemmy was full of tankies before the reddit migration so any post involving China or Russia brings them out in force.
Is this that stupid shit where their air defense zone covers a huge chunk of mainland China and they freak out every time China flies Chinese planes over China?
Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.
you would find that 10 aircrafts either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait or entered the southwestern part of the ADIZ. Neither of those is “flying over mainland China.”
The southwestern quadrant still includes a bit of mainland China and is mostly outside of the Strait, not to mention that all of the Strait is still in the ADIZ.
It is, but it was clearly done to provoke Taiwan. Calling this a moot point is like saying that laughing at homeless people is fine because it is not illegal.
If you consider China flying planes on its coastline to be unacceptable provocation, I’d love to know what you consider the USA sending ships half way around the world to that same coastline.
China did not just fly planes on its coastline. They crossed the median line, which is an unofficial line that has been dividing the Taiwan Strait for decades. Planes and vessels from China and those from Taiwan would not cross this line to show mutual respect. China is purposely breaking this unwritten convention. See how they usually just barely cross the median line, fly parallel to the line for a bit and head back? Neither are the planes passenger planes, they are fighter jets. This is different from the US sending ships through the Strait. Sending a military ship through the Strait is a provocation to China, but it is much weaker than the direct provocation of the fighter jets crossing the median line.
idk dog, the wording in the article leaves some weird wiggle room.
Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defense identification zone, or ADIZ.
Hate to break it to you, but even the US state department recognizes that there’s no such country as Taiwan. Please call it by its correct name, “Chinese Taipei,” so people know what you’re talking about.
you realize that the uptick in frequency of these ‘provocations’ only started in response to the pelosi visit? the incident that had a considerable portion of the entire chinese population howling for the cpc to shoot down the plane and engulf the world in nuclear fire? this is the cpc’s way of appeasing its very large and very rabid nationalist constituency (who are very disappointed that they have not died in a nuclear armageddon, btw) and it is a meme on the chinese internet that despite all of its rhetoric, this pathetic level of ‘not touching you’ fuckery is somehow the lowest that the cpc is willing to stoop to when faced with a de jure violation of its sovereignty.
This is the epistemological stumbling block of living in the west, is this cultural remnant of christianity that compels us to view all things first and foremost through the lens of good or evil, moral or immoral, fault and blame.
States are not perfect frictionless spheres floating in a vaccum and acting purely off some set of moral principles. They are enormous machines rooted into existence by countless interfaces, big and small, with the world as it exists. A state operates on material conditions, on probabilities, contingencies and eventualities. The number of trigger states in a computer is nothing compared to the volume of procedure and protocol involved in the running of a society. With this in mind, the more relevant question to ask with any geopolitical event is not “Who is morally responsible for this?” but “Is this outcome a logical one given our understanding of the factors at play?”
It probably does violate standing diplomatic agreements with the PRC over how that sort of thing would be handled. There was a lot of pushback in Taiwan because they saw it (correctly) as pointless pot-stirring.
Anyway, I think most of the flights that aren’t innocuous (and many of them are or they wouldn’t need to have such bullshit articles) are drills in preparation for the possibility of the US using Taiwan as a military platform as it has been angling for in the past. They aren’t just dick swinging or whatever, China doesn’t want to take any risks in the event of a military conflict, though it would prefer such a conflict not take place.
Your account has been flagged for CCP tankie shill-like activity. Please review These Nuts and never forget that Mao killed more people than Stalin and Hitler combined!
Your logic is baffling. Hitler killed millions of people in the Holocaust. Mao killed millions more, yet he’s still a folk hero. Where is the disconnect here?
That the only way you can come to the conclusion that Mao “killed more” is if you’re deliberately downplaying how many Hitler killed, aka Holocaust denial.
I may have missed the lesson where numbers aren’t allowed to be bigger than other numbers, so let me rephrase this in a way you might be able to understand. The most conservative estimate of famine deaths during the Great Leap Forward (backward) is greater than the ENTIRE European Jewish population in 1933 by at least six million.
the GLF was economic policy made in response to withdrawal of soviet technological and financial aid during the sino-soviet split, one of the primary motivating factors of which being soviet insistence on china essentially allowing the soviets to recolonize the port of dalian to build a naval base from which to deploy its pacific fleet.
on top of being under sanctions from the west, the sino-soviet split further deprived china of markets with which to support its all-important capital intensive industries and so china was forced to resort to agricultural export as a method of making up the shortfall. collectivization was also pursued simultaneously to pool domestic capital for internal consumption, but due to various geographical, technical and political considerations, internal consumption was not sufficiently stimulated to support manufacturing, and so agricultural export became the primary way to finance china’s continued industrialization. most accounts that are not hysterically anti-communist (including liberal darling amartya sen) of the period around the 1958 famine have records of aggregate production being more than sufficient to sustain the overall population, with the primary points of failure being overzealous local governments in highly productive areas, as opposed to popular western conceptions of overbearing central government mandated directives.
all this to say that hitler and the holocaust’s relevance as a point of comparison to mao and the GLF as anything beyond ‘people died when he was in charge’ is laughably superficial and mostly only functions as a thought terminating associative fallacy for juicing your dopamine receptors in order to immunize your brain against more correct opinions.
I also like how you’re deliberately trying to whitewash Hitler by ignoring all the non-Jewish deaths he was responsible for.
Seriously, you’re trying to argue that Mao “killed” every single person who starved to death in a famine, but Hitler is completely innocent of any of the deaths that occurred in World War 2. It’s a double standard no one would employ unless they were trying to downplay Hitler’s crimes.
That’s how it works in a dictatorship right? The fish stinks from the head.
To address your disingenuous bad-faith argument, counting non-Jews you have 11 or so million total dead in the Holocaust, we are still nowhere near it. Fuck Hitler, fuck Stalin, fuck Mao, the CCP, and fuck the US federal government.
Again, you’re saying Mao is guilty of every death in a famine because he was a “dictator”, but Hitler isn’t responsible for any of the deaths in WW2 (even the deaths by famine it caused).
Famines were extremely common before the CPC came to power. Most Chinese people lived in extreme poverty, and life expectancy was less than 35, with no significant improvement under the KMT. In between Mao coming to power and his death, life expectancy in China nearly doubled. Today, average life expectancy in China has exceeded that of the US, a feat that would’ve been unimaginable back then.
It’s true that Mao made misteps (which the CPC readily admits), but those specific, dramatic events have been disproportionately elevated to obscure the more general trend, which has been drastic improvements in the lives of the people of China.
Of course, in addition to minimizing the frequency and severity of famines in pre-industrial China, your history books likely did not place the same level of blame on the British for the intentional famines which Ireland and India were subjected to, in which Britain did not only refuse to provide aid to their colonial subjects (often on the express basis that it would motivate people to work harder), but also did not cease their plundering - in both cases, food was exported out of the country while the people starved.
You’re right, what does it matter that every Chinese person gets to live twice as long as they used to, if the process of getting there wasn’t perfect?
Your carefully researched and insightful rebuttal has convinced me. I hate massive increases in life expectancy now. Clearly, we have no choice but to abandon communism no-choice
I read somewhere that Mao’s family was considered well off for peasants because they could afford eggs a few times a year. I have no idea if there’s any truth to that.
It’s funny how you clowns keep pretending that the only deaths Hitler caused were the ones that specifically happened in the death camps, as if he didn’t literally start WWII. And meanwhile you insist that every single stubbed toe and premature ejaculation that ever happened in a socialist country should be added to the “victims of communism” death toll.
Hitler killed millions of people in the Holocaust.
Fascism did this, not Hitler alone. Fascism and Capitalist Imperialism (western as well) started a world war that killed nearly 100 million people in WW2. Mao did not kill anywhere near that much, it’s reactionary nonsense. China experienced the greatest increase in life expectancy in history under Mao
Mao killed trillions of people!!1!1!1111 Stalin killed zillions and Xi is killing gorillions!1111!!1! Omgomgomg wake up sheeple, time to inbade chyna! Heil Amerikkka, Heil Anglostani!
Wow you’re such a :LIB: that you can’t even be bothered to read what you yourself write susie-laugh
Does your brain turn to mush every time you’re questioned or only the times you get quoted? Did you use words that were too big for yourself? michael-laugh
Cancel culture is just changing the channel when there’s someone on your TV screen that you don’t like.
You want go clockwork orange and strap people down, tape their eyes open and force them to watch the things you want them to watch? Because that would ensure the freedom of the people on TV to say whatever they want, right? The freedom of Hollywood assholes are more important that our freedom to change the channel, amirite?
What the fuck are you even talking about with Hollywood and television? Are you on a script? Bitch, you’re the one complaining about cancel culture. You’re the one equating being made fun of for having stupid reactionary opinions to literal torture. Can you please put in the absolute bare minimum of effort when you speak to at least remember the topic of fucking discussion??
I haven’t been so befuddled by a completely deranged and incoherent reply since I last posted on reddit-logo. Buddy I do not miss dealing with dipshits like you.
I understand the liberal brainpan isn’t capable of maintaining a thought or any information for longer than a few sentences, but this is really exceptional. Why are you acting like you weren’t the one crying about cancel culture in the first place? Why do you compare being bullied for your reactionary opinions with torture? Are you stupid?
It’s a problem idiots like to whine about as if it’s actually an important thing and I demonstrated how ridiculous it is because any solution to this “problem” would be insane.
I suggest you read Jonathan Swift’s “A Modest Proposal” so you’ll be better able to understand this kind of rhetorical device. It’s meant to make you think about what the actual issue is, but apparently you’re unwilling or unable to think.
Hint: If you’re not willing to strap people down and force them to watch what you want them to, then what’s the solution to the “cancel culture” problem? Or maybe it’s not actually a problem that needs to be solved. It’s literally just people not watching things they don’t like.
I’m almost tempted to spend this time mocking you for being so fucking stupid as to believe that some idiot offering a cartoonish solution to a problem is proof that it can’t be solved. Because that’s a real fucking stupid thing to say and you’re a real fucking stupid person for saying it.
But it’s more important that I tell you to shut the fuck up and go back to read what the thread you’re replying to is about. You were the one who whined about cancel culture. Turn off the chatbot in your brain and actually pay the fuck attention to what’s going on around you. Holy shit dude.
Britain has committed a lot of killings in my country for 2 centuries. Winston Churchill also orchestrated the well known Bengal famine induced genocide.
My dude calls people statists but then also cites death tolls spouted by the US State department on Mao’s casualties is a level of mental gymnastics that may finally dethrone the Maga morons.
I’m sure there’s some explanation for how Mao killed 100,000,000 people but somehow the population of China went up and the life expectancy doubled under him. It can’t be because the US stat dept. exaggerated the deaths by an exponent tho.
China is fascist now, they can go on calling themselves communist in a vain attempt to have something resembling legitimacy. But any fool knows that when the ruling party is full of billionaires, that’s no communist system.
They Chinese people are a great people and deserve a better government than the fascist regime lead by Winnie Xi Pooh.
Because it’s not saying Chinese people look like Winnie the Pooh. It’s only Xi looks like Winnie the Pooh. Do you understand the distinction between insulting an ethnicity and insulting an individual?
And you must’ve been living under a rock (or behind a firewall in an authoritarian country) if you’ve never heard of Xi being compared to Winnie the Pooh. I hear he’s sensitive about it, and it’s banned to make such statements in China. But since I’m not in China and Xi is a piece of shit, this incentivizes me to insult that shithead in ways that hurts his fragile little ego.
What a useless definition. It doesn’t even consider the class character of fascism.
Authoritarian is a useless word. It literally could be used to describe any state.
China is actually highly democratic, but that would require expanding your bourgeois ideas about democracy and understanding how their system actually works in practice.
Misogyny is a problem everywhere and is in no way unique to fascism or any political economy, is predates capitalism by thousands of years. I agree it should be abolished, and that is what socialism aspires to do. But the idea that it can be eliminated by flipping a switch is idealist and unrealistic. There is plenty of truth to the critique that patriarchy still exists in China, but the PRC has maybe also done more than any other state to end some of the most oppressive forms of misogyny, for the most number of women, in history.
Propaganda about past grievances? That is too vague to be meaningful either. Some past grievances, like the Japanese war crimes in China, are legitimate. Others, like conspiracies about “judeo-bolshevism” are not. The term “propaganda” here is loaded too, like if the US government does its best to bury its history of chattel slavery (like it is doing in florida, for instance), would it be “propaganda about past grievances” to fight back against that? Would you tell the grandchild of a slave in Florida that by spreading information as wide as possible to the people about the crime of slavery it is somehow fascist? it makes no sense
If you’re living in a place where they will drive over you with a tank if you protest the rulers, you’re living in an authoritarian state. This isn’t exacltly a subtle thing.
Misogyny is a problem everywhere and is in no way unique to fascism or any political economy, is predates capitalism by thousands of years.
I’m not talking about a few weird comments here and there. I’m talking about the ruling class in China raping women and getting away with it because it’s considered ok for the rulers to rape women in their society. Because it’s a fascist society. Communism is supposed to espouse equality between men and women. But China isn’t communist anymore.
Propaganda about past grievances? That is too vague to be meaningful either.
“Century of humiliation! We must allow strongman Xi to rule over us for as long he wants to fight back against the westerners trying to humiliate us!”
This is standard fascist propaganda, fear of outsiders, citing past grievances as a reason for needing a strongman ruler.
In reality it’s the CCP is humiliating the Chinese people. It’s a garbage government. The people of China deserve better.
Nah I live in a democratic country where women aren’t treated like property and we aren’t constantly butt hurt about some bullshit that happened in the past. In fact there are billions of people living in similar countries as mine.
Maybe it’s just you and the people around you that are fashy which makes you think everyone is this way. We aren’t.
I encourage you to learn about how fascism works so you won’t be so easily manipulated by fascist assholes like Xi and Putin.
Idk how to tell you this, but the CPC and the Chinese state have like 90% approval from the Chinese people according to western academic sources beloved by libs.
You have it wrong. The Communist Party isnt producing billionaires or getting rich through corruption (at least not in the recent decade of anti corruption). Billionaires join the CPC for THEIR benefit, clout and image.
China is the only country that actually punishes billionaires for their crimes instead of giving them a slap on the wrist, house arrest or just straight up not punishing them. China executes billionaires when they commit a crime. Liu Han ordered a Mafia hit on a villager who protested one of his illegal real estate expansions, as well as a business rival. He was executed for murder. China is the only country in the world that would sentence someone worth $40 billion, let alone to death, let alone not given a presidential pardon. Jack Ma regularly oversteps and gets punished by the CPC.
The only billionaire the west has executed is Jeff Epstein (for entirely the wrong reasons). China’s executed 14+ in the last decade.
If there was a snap election todaty in China with 100% voter turnout, the Communist Party would be re-elected tonight. The party responsible for improving the lives for 1.4 billion people actually isn’t disliked in China. The Chinese are not without grievances with the government but literally no other political system in the world has matched Chinese progress over the last 70 years. The average Chinese person isn’t unaware of western Liberal democracy, it simply isn’t appealing. A system that’s basically a popularity contest that elects senile old men, cowboy actors and reality TV stars that have no business being statesmen is actually not a good system. Having lifetime appointed judges to interpret the words of long dead slave owners is not a good system. Having a leadership spill and a change of prime minister every year is not a good system. We can improve on freedom of expression, sure, but the Chinese people aren’t sheep who need to be liberated. Neoliberalism is the failure in the world, not the Chinese model.
Billionaires join the CPC for THEIR benefit, clout and image.
Yeah that’s how it works in a fascist system. The wealthy join the ruling party and gain connections to other wealthy people so they can all become wealthier.
The existence of billionaires in China indicates that China is not communist. If it were communist the wealth of the billionaires would be seized and redistributed to the people. China is a country where billionaires are legal and labour unions are illegal.
And your obsession with executions is indicative devaluing life. And it’s interesting that you buy into the conspiracy that Epstein was killed to silence him but haven’t considered the possibility that executions happen in China for the same reason.
If there was a snap election todaty in China with 100% voter turnout, the Communist Party would be re-elected tonight.
Then why isn’t there an election? Why aren’t opposition parties allowed in China? If the CCP would easily win an election, why not have them?
It’s because China is fascist. I think you’re confusing fascism with corporatism. They’re not at all the same. in fascism there’s a hierachy and corporations benefit by falling in line with the hierarchy. Winnie Xi Pooh (who shouldn’t even be leader, but pesky rules bout term limits don’t apply to autocrats) is at the top. Questioning his authority gets you executed. The leadership of China is most certainly misogynistic. The propaganda in China is all about century of humiliation kind of things. China is anti-democracy. These are all the properties of a fascist system.
And yeah fascists will lie about being left wing. See “National Socialism”.
Billionaires exist as a necessary evil, they’re not deities like they are to the west like Gates or Bezos, or a pillar of power like Russian oligarchs. China may not be Marxist as it is, but to completely cut away from the rest of the globe would be suicide. Market socialism relies on being a necessary part of the global economy, and China being able to manufacture in it’s current state while being able to raise the conditions of the proletariat makes it either the worst socialist state or the best capitalist state. Neither is worth of the vitriol it has received. If they must exist, better they exist for the benefit of the people rather than own media companies that push right wing agenda.
The fixation with executions comes from the accusation that billionaires are in charge. It they truly were, they wouldn’t be subject to the same laws as the common folk, and yet herr they are. Unlike Russia or the west, they are held accountable for their actions to a higher degree. All else equal, the CPC treats billionaires worse than any other form of government, and that’s not a bad thing.
For your second point re: elections: Why? The US doesn’t even have free elections, an electoral college overrules pupular vote, nor does the UK, the king and house of Lords aren’t subject to democracy. The Soviets had a free election in 91, voted to remain socialist,nand it was hijacked by the west. Allende was democratically elected and the west supported the usurper. An election while liberalism exists is just inviting interference. Taiwan didn’t have elections for 4 decades and were still beloved by liberalss. The house of Saud doesn’t have elections, did 9/11 and is a close US ally.
If the outcome is obvious, why waste time and resources to indulge western sensibilities, as if bourgeoisie democracy is a human norm, when you can skip that step and move on with increasing society? If it just leads to a Chinese Jan 6th, or worse, why would that possibly be on the table? The CPC would win and somehow the losers would obtain US military grade weapons and seize power. And even if there were no interference and the CPC won anyway, guess what? Every paper in the west would claim it was rigged.
Ren Zhengfei, the CEO of Huawei, has had people arrested and thrown into a dungeon. Billionaires here don’t have that level of power.
You keep imagining yourself as some communist revolutionary, but you’re just another useful idiot that’s been fooled by fascist propaganda.
You should know that fascists are liars and will even label themselves as “communist” if it furthers their goals of acquiring power.
After the ruling party of China did the Tiananmen Square massacre (en.wikipedia.org/…/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests…) and got away with it, they shifted to being fascist thugs whose only goal was to maintain and expand their power.
If you’re gonna support fascist thugs, at least be honest about who they are. You look really silly otherwise.
Source? Zhengfei couldn’t even keep his own daughter out of prison. Xi has been the one to crack down on billionaires (part of why a lot of my family like him better than Hu) so if it happened ages ago, I don’t remember. Even so, he’s less wealthy than Jack Ma, who is subject to the CPC’s rules, not vice versa.
All I know is the CPC has done more for the working class, lifted more workers out of poverty than any of the government’s that have earned your respect.
If all they wanted to do post 1989 was to maintain and expand power why the fuck haven’t they? Mongolia is right there, the Qing annexed it, the ROC annexed it, but the PRC can’t? Why forgive loans for Africa?
Why exempt Tibetans and Uyghurs and Mongolians from the One Child Policy? What kind of fascism does population control on the Han majority but not the minorities in their country?
If the goal was to acquire power, there are dozens of regimes that have done a better job at seizing absolute power, but instead the CPC open up more? The Juche government of the DPRK has absolute power, why didn’t China cloister itself from the world like pre Deng? Or start proxy wars in foreign countries to push nationalist jingoism?
I support my countrymen, no fascist thugs. If you’ve ever been to China you’d know it’s not some Orwellian nightmare state. Listening to the media’s portrayal of China when they lie or twist the truth on just about anything else is the brain worm talking. China’s fascist like Saddam has WMDs.
Think about where you’ve gotten your conception of China from and question whether or not they’re biased. You’re talking to someone with first hand experience in China.
I think you make some excellent points and I was glad to read much of what you wrote. If you don’t mind, I am curious about how concerned you are about the points raised above regarding women in positions of power and Xi’s unprecedented (to my knowledge) third term?
I’m not an expert on the gender dynamics of the political system, so it’s something I’ll have to look into, but to address the term limits thing, I kinda have to explain how the political system of the PRC works.
The way the President of China is decided is on the system of the People’s Congress. Starting from the lowest, most local level (will refer to as level 1), grassroots civilians will elect a congress representing the village/town. Larger populations elect people to a congress representing whole smaller cities, municipal districts or a county. This is level 2. Then for level 3, it’s a congress for cities and prefectures. Level 4 is a congress for provinces and autonomous regions. Level 5 is the National People’s Congress.
Depending on where you live and how populated, as a grassroots/civilian voter level, you elect someone to level 1 (more rural areas) or 2 (cities). Then, candidates from 1 & 2 elect someone among them to move up to level 3, level 3 select someone among them to move up to level 4, and so on. Its not possible to “skip” levels, you can’t get elected into a position of power unless you’ve held a lesser position of power and was competent enough for your equals deem you worthy of advancing. Level 5, the National People’s Congress consisting of around 3000 delegates, then elects the Central Committee for the PRC as well as the President of China by majority vote. The move to abolish term limits was put forth and passed by the National People’s Congress. They must have thought it was inconsequential, or it was more important to consolidate power during rising tensions with the west. Whatever the reason, this did not increase the powers of the office of President. If it was a malicious power grab by Xi, this was a poorly done one since General Secretary (the leader of the executive branch of government) had no term limits to begin with and holds more power (for reference, Deng Xiaoping was never President, but served 3 terms as General Secretary but was the most influential man in China during his active years)
Now, term limits in and of themselves aren’t necessarily good or bad. They were never in the original constitution of the PRC to begin with, were added I believe in the 80’s and abolished in 2018 since its effectiveness is questionable. German Chancellor’s have no term limits, nor most countries with Prime Ministers.
Thanks for answering and for trying to contextualize the answer as well. I think the latter in particular was very helpful. You are very much correct in your assertion that term limits are not a part of many democratic institutions, and I do not see any inherent issue with this. I imagine it might also depend on the particular mechanics and dynamics of the systems in question. Countries such as Germany and those with prime ministers often have a system of representation that allows for smaller political parties, which I think makes it harder for a single candidate to stay as head of state for a prolonged time (though I know of at least one case of this happening even if it isn’t necessarily a bad thing).
I did not know about the way you (to me) seem to choose representatives who then iteratively elects further candidates representing them. If my understanding is correct, then I would say that the first election seems to form the basis for the subsequent ones, which I think is a neat idea. However, that would also imply that how the first election is conducted is quite important for the composition of government. What limits are there to who can be a candidate in the first and second stages of the elections? I assume of course you had to make some simplifications, so I might be off track a bit here.
Well instead of minor parties, there are simply different factions in both the CPC (the executive branch) as well as the People’s Congress. Although there are actually minor parties in the National People’s Congress, but even to me they seem like tokens.
There are more hardline Leninists vs more free market liberals, among other stances for the way China should move forward in both branches. Nanjie, for example is still Maoist because the people chose leadership to remain Maoist, compared to Shenzhen or Shanghai which is far more liberal. Although as a whole, in recent years “centrists” (by Chinese standards) have been more likely to be elected upwards beyond a regional/county level, but that might be due to the fact that the status quo, although not perfect, has been more beneficial than detrimental to the average Chinese.
As far as I’m aware, the lowest levels of election would be the equivalent of like a village council (although villages in China may be considered a small city in other countries), and candidates I believe have to be citizens that have no prior convictions. Relevant background also helps.
okay guys , so since this hole federation stuff your Pro Imperial Wrong Takes comes my way , it must be corrected …
this is Taiwans Air Identification Zone https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/96f46344-321a-40b3-b066-3b697afe616b.jpeg it is a Bullshit leftover that spans so vast over china that it simply can not be not violated ,… theirby producing the most wonderfull “Permanent - Saturaton - Propaganda” of China Bad Bakround noise for the Imperial core audience in their Echo Chambers .
PS: this is where real Journalist go in the west , when they start beeing critical of non approved subjects.
“Good thing propaganda only ever happens to other people”
withdrawing support for Taiwan in the still-distant future.
They’re going to tip the Republic of China in to the ocean as soon as they’ve stolen all of TSCM’s productive capacity. That’s all this was ever about. They’re building chip fabs in Arizona right now. As soon as the US can produce it’s own Chips the RoC is… going to go right back to tense but peaceful relations with the mainland like they had before DC started waving it’s grand imperial [redacted] around.
Yeah, you can say in a meaningful sense that the US co-founded Taiwan. I personally think that part of the reason the US wants to recreate Taiwan’s manufacturing capacity is that it makes Taiwan much more expendable, meaning it can be used for military provocations and even war (as some US generals are openly calling for or predicting) without risking the loss of an irreplaceable economic asset to the US.
I thought the US Taiwanese support had more to do with keeping an open lane in East China Sea? If they can win over Taiwan somehow then that would be completely closed off in a potential future conflict.
The indigenous inhabitants and the 10,000 or so dissidents that they put in camps at the beginning of their incredibly democratic four decades of martial law.
Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan’s air defence zone . . . Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.
For those unfamiliar with the Air Defense Identification Zone:
Not only does it include a lot of water that isn’t part of the Strait, right off of China’s coast, it also includes a portion of Mainland China a few times larger than Taiwan itself.
People like to talk like China is flying jets over Taipei City, but you can fly a plane from one city in Mainland China to another, only passing over land, and be in this zone. Mind you, I don’t think Taiwan having this zone is bad – countries generally should be aware of air traffic nearby – but this is part of a long history of alarmist headlines by western media regarding what is often very uninteresting air traffic in the PRC.
OK, but these articles arent alerting on that type of traffic, only when military aircraft are flying near Thailand, so whats the significance of the ADIZ extending into China in this context?
Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan’s air defence zone . . . Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.
This is what the original post quoted. Flying over international air space is NOT news worthy. Unless China does it, suddenly it’s news. And yes, in case you don’t understand, the median line IS international air space. In fact, that’s USA’s whole point of freedom of navigation is that anyone can fly or sail over that median line.
So if your argument that countries shouldn’t freely fly or sail over the Taiwan Strait, you agree with China, NOT Taiwan.
My argument is that you shouldn’t fly military aircraft so close to a country in their ADIZ after stating you don’t believe they’re a country and that you will take them over with violent means if necessary.
Ah classic, your all for rule of law until there’s an actor you don’t like following rule of law. Suddenly the law should change just for them. Hypocrite.
Because a poll asking a direct question is a hell of a lot more accurate in gauging how the population feels about the issue.
Political parties can lose elections for their stances/actions outside their main one – which seems to have been the case per the actual person from Taiwan that responded to your comment. It doesn’t matter what a party is called or what their main goals are if they’re bad at their job.
If and when the people of Taiwan decide they want reunification, it will happen. Thankfully Beijing isn’t going to be allowed to force the issue.
The majority of Taiwanese people has always wanted to remain status quo, as indicated by the two triangle data lines in the plot. Since declaring independence is basically asking China to attack and that peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population) either, the majority are of course pro-status quo. It does not line up with how DPP ate shit last year.
peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population)
Again, this was “forced” reunification in that poll, i.e. military takeover. Of course people oppose that. I think at least the plurality opinion is against peaceful reunification under the PRC too, but it’s not by as high a margin.
No, it was NOT “forced” reunification. The two reunification choices in that poll were “unification as soon as possible” and “maintain status quo, move towards unification,” neither of which is forced.
Do you even know why the pro-independence party (DPP) lost so badly in the local election for mayors? Because the people were disappointed in what DPP had done with the economy, not because they didn’t agree with the foreign policies DPP was pushing! (Please note that I’m not saying most people agree.) In local elections, people are going to choose whoever they believe would be the best for the city/county, not the one whose views on China they agree with.
Additionally, if you look at the latest opinion poll for the presidental election next year, you’d be surprised to find out that the candidate from the pro-independence party is leading.
Source: am Taiwanese
ps. you made a typo in your comment. it was the 2022 local election, not 2020.
i am sure the success or failure of those domestic policies were not in the least contingent on international political conditions. the economic policies of an island that imports 97% of its energy with a food self sufficiency rate of around 30% and exports accounting for 70% of gdp can in no way be considered to be overexposed or at risk to trade fluctuations and even if that were the case, i am sure that foreign policy would not play an outsize role in determining the magnitude or periodicity of said trade fluctuations.
Like asking yankoids what they want to do with “their land”, the question is pointless and only serves to legitimize a faulty preposition.
The ROC also still claims to be the legitimate government of all of China (plus Mongolia and a sizable chunk of Russia) so its not like they’re just sitting there minding their own business either.
The ROC also claims the South China Sea as its own and has build naval bases in there. Even the DPP doesn’t want to give up those naval bases. So, it’s the Republic of Taiwan to stick it to the Mainland commies, but “akctually, we’re the Republic of China, and the South China Sea is part of Chinese naval waters, so we get to build as many naval bases as we want” to Vietnam and Indonesia.
Yeah, obviously it’s a glorified puppet state but there’s no point in arguing from that standpoint here. If a country is to exist, it should know about local air traffic, that’s all I’m saying.
Taiwan is a rump state of the despotism that existed before the Maoist revolution. When the government fled to the island, the US backed them up and prevented the revolution from purging them from power and uniting the whole country under one flag. They exist today as they are because of western intervention, and is therefore a puppet state. I disagree with ‘glorified’ considering it’s taboo internationally to even call them a state.
I started writing out a timeline but I don’t know what position you’re asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China so that the US could us the island as a threat against China – as it also attempted to do in Korea when it had more-or-less complete control of the southern half. Taiwan spent about 40 years as a military dictatorship killing tens of thousands of dissidents, native Formosans, and others (this was called the “White Terror”), while their patron the US looked the other way while it pumped resources into the country (for the ruling class, mind you) to use the island as a sweatshop site in the interim. This legacy and its connections to fellow US puppet South Korea and US ally Japan go a long way to explaining its current capacity in manufacturing, which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.
Both Taiwan and SK have made various attempts to assert themselves (with some success in both cases), but with the pathetic diplomatic position of the former and the continued military occupation of the latter by the US, I think “puppet state” is a fair title for them, perhaps as much as Israel, but that’s its own can of worms.
I didn’t really intend on getting into litigating this topic, but I’m happy to discuss it as best I can.
I started writing out a timeline but I don’t know what position you’re asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China […] which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.
Yes, I know about its not-so-glorious past and the White Terror. Thousands of innocent civilians were killed. It was terrible. However, I must respectfully disagree with you on the “puppet state” part. I don’t think that Taiwan is a puppet state. The US sponsoring Taiwan is a thing of the past. Neither is a pathetic diplomatic position a good reason for being a puppet state.
if US support dropped overnight, reunification with the mainland would become inevitable. it’s a puppet state in the sense that it’s propped up by the might of the US/NATO military.
It’s kind of a weird way to define a puppet state IMO, because you could make the same case for a lot of countries. Like the US supports the Mexican government, and would have likely already been overthrown by the Sinoloa Cartel without US support. So is Mexico a puppet state?
Hey now that you mention this, it does kind of make less sense. But I think I should be taking a break from this horrible post. There is no use arguing with someone that is completely unwilling to change their mind. Look at my comment history. I’ve already wasted hours.
I didn’t see this reply before. The other commenter has it right that the relevance of its pathetic diplomatic position is that it is being propped up by the US/NATO and ultimately depends on them to exist apart from the PRC, which makes it very difficult to oppose them. Incidentally, does the US not sponsor Taiwan? Even just recently there was this, which sure seems like sponsorship to me.
I could have formatted it better, but the rest was focused on the puppet part and then I prefaced the sponsorship part with “Incidentally” to indicate changing over to an adjacent subject.
Not only did the US turn a blind eye to the White Terror, but they were positively gleeful about it, as a key target of it was of course not only indigeneous-politics based, but fundamentally anti-communist.
Indeed a basic presupposition of the US providing you such extensive economic support, as a forward base in Asia against communism, is that you crush any opposition to its ‘proper’ functioning as such an economic and military asset. That supposes that you will crush any radical, labor, trade-union, let alone explicitly socialist or communist activity which appears to challenge the state.
The PRC wants a peaceful reunification, which would not be aided by them continuously flying military jets over the island. I, too, would prefer peaceful reunification, which means some level of cooperation and tolerance is necessary.
The RoC won’t give up their holdings in the interest of human benefit, but liberalism shows us that there are countless ways to skin a cat. The RoC is not autarkic and is very dependent on its NATO friends and its trading partners. As the US wanes and third world nations stand up, the support for Taiwanese nationalism will surely dwindle, and RoC leadership may be put in a position where their best offer is clearly to reunify.
So Chinese bots are on lemmy too now. You obviously didn’t read the article - “Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.”
In international relations, militaries have defined and at times unspoken rules of engagement. This was NOT routine flight over mainland China that you are making out to be, but was a clear breach of said protocols. Thus Taiwan sent its fighter jets to observe the Chinese military aircraft.
I literally quoted the part that you just also quoted, which specifies that some of the craft were merely in the ADIZ, the one thing I was talking about in my comment
Like 6ish years ago we all, liberals and leftists together, were creeped out by the right’s sudden proliferation of “NPC” memes, correctly pointing out how dehumanizing it is and conjecturing darkly about what exactly this kind of rhetoric was priming these people for. Now, the overton window’s so fucked that the we’ve normalized deploying the exact same invective against anyone who speaks up on behalf of humanity and against a US-dominated world. I’ve driven past the ruins of the Japanese concentration camps out in the miserable desert, and to know that so many people around me who act self-righteous but stand for nothing would rebuild those camps at the snap of a finger, or the running of an op-ed, or a scary news story…well, these people may haughtily object to being called blue MAGA, but that sure doesn’t stop them from doing absolutely fucking everything they can to earn the label.
Beep boop I have been programmed to make really fucking cool historical dramas beep boop (This is my stereotype about China idk what else happens there I just really like Three Kingdoms adaptations did y’all see 2008’s Red Cliff it was dope af! John Woo directing!)
I mean, it was made solely for your benefit (though I did like reading it). For your convenience, here it is again.
They are mocking you because they have assessed you as not interested in really engaging with people. If you were more unassuming, the response would be different. It sucks to be dogpiled-on, it has happened to me – with this very group no less – but it’s good to try to have some perspective of the limits of the implications of such behavior.
Also hexbear is just a little excited to have liberals to use as punching bags via federation, so there’s definitely a bit of a hair trigger. I generally prefer to stick to my own ways of talking with people for various reasons, but I struggle to find serious fault with them when I am essentially doing the same thing in my own way with others, and OP seriously brought this upon themselves by posting such a stupid, misleading, and alarmist article (see the comments about the Taiwan ADIZ from myself and others).
Edit: also I checked back and yeah, you were picking a fight. Liberal complains about “brigading,” socialist A criticizes them, socialist B riffs on socialist A’s comment, then you come and reply to socialist B with “You seem upset,” which I would struggle to read as anything other than condescending and terse. I misread
It’s not like you said “Hey, what about the Taiwan Strait part?” and got people screaming “HOG OUT OR LOG OUT!”
I don’t think I’ve expressed any liberal sentiments here at all.
I legitimately don’t care either way tbh. All this does is once again reinforce the idea that leftist spaces on the Internet are hostile to anything besides a very narrow set of ideas which makes up a very small and myopic subset of leftist thought. I am not here to cure anyone’s ignorance. I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit.
Whoops, I misread the reply chain pretty severely, you can ignore the edit. You were picking a fight, but not along the lines I wrote there.
I don’t they’ve expressed any liberal sentiments here at all.
Neoliberal is a subset of liberal (in the traditional philosophical sense, not American vernacular), and there is a very clear divide in the thread between neoliberal and socialist.
I legitimately don’t care either way tbh.
With due respect, you’re just a little Not Mad, but let’s not belabor the point. I’ve been Not Mad too, it’s not a sin.
All this does is once again reinforce the idea that leftist spaces on the Internet are hostile to anything besides a very narrow set of ideas which makes up a very small and myopic subset of leftist thought
There are a bunch of things wrong with this, starting with that the article was misleading dogshit and deserves to be mocked. Beyond that, the cultural clique of Hexbear can be myopic, but I think that it does not compare negatively to modern neoliberals in this respect. It is much more interested in international perspectives rather than the perspective of the “international community” (i.e. the EU + the Anglosphere + the most convenient elements of Taiwan, Japan, and SK). They quite frequently read neoliberal writing and listen to neoliberal speeches and so on, while neoliberals are usually content to hear about anything to do with their opposition exclusively through second- and third-hand reporting by their own media.
Which leads me into my next point, that “tankies” etc. are readily called fringe by liberals on the internet, but internationally represent a very common set of opinions (or a strong overlap therewith). It is itself myopia to dismiss the opinions of Chinese and many other people in the imperial periphery and consider only the opinions of the imperial core when evaluating what people think and what “leftist thought” consists of. You could not serious believe, for example, that the Collected Writings of Chairman Mao are important to only a “small subset of leftist thought,” right? Sure, you are unlikely to know anyone – or even to have ever met anyone in your real life – who regards such a thing positively, but your personal experiences are not the world.
As an aside, the “bot” rhetoric that the liberals so often display is not really helping your case about the tankies being especially closed-minded.
I am not here to cure anyone’s ignorance.
Do you see how most people would not be interested in talking with someone who says things like this? That level of condescension rarely produces anything other than scorn.
“You are being condescending to me too!”
Sure, I don’t think that’s an unreasonable view (though not my intention), but I am nonetheless explaining and substantiating my differences rather than merely denouncing what you say as “ignorant,” and even if we nonetheless accept my fault, that just results in a criticism towards both of us rather than solely towards me.
I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit.
I would not have replied at all if I didn’t recognize your username. You hadn’t been saying anything in this thread that someone would normally think merits a serious response. You were derisive right out of the gate. To act this way and then complain about other people not turning the other cheek and speaking patiently to you is silly.
I promise you that if you make an alt (preferably with a different username in case people are grumpy with the interaction here) and post a thread on asklemmygrad or askchapo to the effect of “Hey, I’m a [whatever you call your flavor of liberalism], but I want to learn about what you believe on various topics and what you think of certain criticisms . . .” you will get mostly responses that are earnest. If you expect people to be polite and unassuming towards you when you begin by being aggressive and presumptuous, you will almost exclusively be disappointed, and I don’t just mean that for interacting with commies.
Ignorance, once again, being the idea that ML orthodoxy is the only “true socialism.” We’ve been over this already and I’m not sure there’s much point in carrying on this conversation if you are going to intentionally misrepresent politics I have articulated to you a number of times.
And to be honest, it sounds like you are the one doing a lot of speaking for the Chinese while making a lot of assumptions about my relationship with Chinese society. I don’t really feel the need to justify any of this to you or trade cultural credentials. That honestly feels offensive and chauvinist.
I do appreciate the discussion though. I hope we can continue this in a different setting somehow.
Ignorance, once again, being the idea that ML orthodoxy is the only “true socialism.”
That is not the hexbear line and not even relevant to the thread. Being an anarchist or whatever you like doesn’t mean believing western smears of China – like this incredibly poor article that you keep talking around.
We’ve been over this already and I’m not sure there’s much point in carrying on this conversation if you are going to intentionally misrepresent politics I have articulated to you a number of times.
I remember now from that conversation a week ago that you insist on being some type of socialist but I am pretty sure you never specified.
And to be honest, it sounds like you are the one doing a lot of speaking for the Chinese
It’s not an unfounded opinion that the CPC has strong popular support. That doesn’t mean the majority of China is ML in any serious way – plainly, they don’t seem to be – but it does support the view that articles like this are a completely bullshit characterization of the PRC - RoC situation and most people in China (and many other countries in the imperial periphery) would agree.
while making a lot of assumptions about my relationship with Chinese society. I don’t really feel the need to justify any of this to you or trade cultural credentials.
Reading another comment you made in this thread: Whoops, I guess you probably have met a Marxist or two. That wasn’t terribly important to my argument, I was merely speculating on how you might have developed you false opinions. Given this new information, I don’t have a new guess.
I don’t care about your life and wasn’t attempting to initiate some identity game, I merely try to understand things in terms of how ideology is downstream from personal circumstances, and how an ideology that is well-suited to one’s personal circumstances can nonetheless lead them to have a distorted view of the world outside their experience. I support your inclination to not discuss these details with me but invite you to reflect on them to yourself in this context.
I read GS’s thread, what do you want me to say? I have more personal, firsthand experience with China than anyone commenting there? I have family there? I speak the language? I have an actual stake in Chinese society? I think we’ve seen conclusively that none of that matters if you do a wrongspeak.
GS even admits that the brigading is obnoxious then goes on to defend it. Like I said, this is well beyond my ability to truly care, I was just really hoping that lemmy would be a place people could discuss these topics instead of just trolling, and then having double standards when someone else gently pushes back.
GS even admits that the brigading is obnoxious then goes on to defend it.
Dogpiling and brigading are two different things. Brigading is (at least loosely) coordinated, dogpiling is something people do when they are there, coordinated or not. The algorithm just happened to put this thread near the top on Hexbear, which is only federated with a handful of instances, as can be seen by the fact that I was the very first person to comment on it (next was op, then myself again, iirc). It is categorically false to my knowledge that this thread was “brigaded,” a bunch of people with similar opinions on this issue just all saw the thread.
And it is obnoxious, but “obnoxious” doesn’t mean “evil,” especially when you were speaking so derisively about the people you had to have seen made up the bulk of the thread when you made your first comment. Honestly, what did you expect? In most political communities you’d get a very similar reaction, and I’d prefer a single emote to a “Crimes of China” copypasta filling up my inbox.
Scare quotes are used for discussing definitions, as in, uh . . . “socialism” is not “when the government does stuff”. I was not meaning to convey that you used a word that you plainly did not, just highlighting that me agreeing to something being obnoxious does not mean agreeing to it being seriously wrong (which in common parlance might be called “evil”).
You both quoted the same exact piece of text. You said they didn’t read the article but you didn’t even bother to read their comment?
You are calling a human being a bot, literally dehumanizing them, because they don’t have the same hatred of China as you. You should really check yourself. You are full of hatred and ideological poison. It is clear from your comment that you have limited literacy skills and understanding, you should check out some other perspectives and try to broaden your horizons. Here is one. This is also another incredible resource with a lot of essays and information with a different perspective
No no never engage their statement on it’s alleged merits. Kick them in the [redacted] and then ask them why they can’t walk while laughing. It is the weirding way.
Amazing how comfortable you are being racist on a public forum.
Anyway, people should look at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JADIZ_and_CADIZ_and_KADIZ_in_East_China_Sea.jpg and take note of how far Taiwan’s ADIZ extends into Fujian province of mainland China and the open ocean (which is the southwest corner the PRC’s airplanes were supposedly encroaching on). These articles are obviously published to make China seem more aggressive than it really is. Meanwhile the US, with the most powerful navy in the world, parades its warships through the Taiwan strait, which for some reason is not seen as a threat or provocation. Also Taiwan claims the mainland as its own territory. Oh, poor little Taiwan. Lol, get off it.
Yes, the ADIZ includes part of China, but this article is mainly about jets crossing the median line of Taiwan Strait. Also I don’t think Taiwan gets mad over any jets intruding the “overclaimed” part of the ADIZ.
Didn’t take long for that one to come out, accused of being racist and immediately compares the leader of China to a yellow cartoon bear lmao. Incredible
What’s wrong with Winnie the Pooh anyways? Who doesn’t want to live the rest of their life eating honey and being a loving, caring member of their community?
That is one of the top all time posters over on hexbear. I’m not sure why you keep thinking that established posters are new bot accounts, but it’s absolutely not helping you to look less ridiculous
Imagine going off on people for the age of their account when you’ve been here for 2 months (reddit refugee) lmao. You don’t have the highground here and your feigned elitism makes you look like a clown.
The instance I’m a part of (hexbear) just federated with Lemmy dot ml a week ago. So I don’t have many comments on here obviously. I am unfortunately addicted to the internet and have way more comments than that on my accounts main instance. I wish this was my only comment in 3 years lol. Could have got so much done instead of wasting time on my phone.
“How am I being racist? I’m just assuming anyone who disagrees with me must be a certain ethnicity and/or bot.”
This really isn’t too complicated. Stop using Chinese as a pejorative and “bot” as a thought terminating cliche. It prevents any meaningful discussion, and yes, it’s also very racist.
The term isn’t being used as a pejorative. The term is being used as an adjective to a pro-chinese social media commentator. Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
The term isn’t being used as a pejorative. The term is being used as an adjective to a pro-chinese social media commentator. Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
Chinese refers to the people who live there or who’s families emigrated from there, not randos online who don’t support the rabid NATO line. your racism is showing.
Sir or Ma’am, I am a US citizen of Chinese descent and I assure you that you are being a cracker, and you can stop any time.
My bias is towards peace and against interfering in other countries’ internal affairs. Taiwan is part of China, this was settled in 1972. It’s only in recent years that the US has taken a hostile stance against the PRC since its peaceful economic rise has started to threaten US hegemony. This is not my fight, it’s not your fight, it is the fight of the US ruling class—its political establishment and its financial oligarchs. China and the US should be allies, and we should be putting our combined labor into decarbonization, healing the ecosphere, reparations for the global south, and preparing communities for the effects of climate change.
Also, my family immigrated from Hong Kong before it was released from British rule, so by your logic I should be against China, which I’m not, because I’m capable of critical thinking.
Good on ya, assuming I’m American (I’m not). Also, classic use of US bad, therefore Russia/China good. Two countries can be overmilitarized imperialists at the same time.
They’re only a global superpower that is constantly causing problems for everyone around it, no big deal or anything. Definitely not newsworthy at all, no.
Capitalism and the neoliberalism that supports the aristocratic hierarchy funneling wealth from developing nations is destroying the world. But go ahead, focus on China while the housing crisis and inflation fuels fascism inside western countries destroying them from the inside.
Developing fascism is the understatement of the century lmao the US has slavery enshrined into the 13th amendment. Henry kissenger is literally still alive.
When white people do it, it’s “difficult history but ‘workable’” but when China superficially resembles it (taking Chinese history at face value), it’s “unforgivable capitalist dictatorship imperialist empire big brother”
There’s more to China’s political system than “just a dictatorship” but I won’t disagree with you that it’s not a dictatorship if you see one party rule as emblematic of one.
What I am arguing is that even well intentioned comments like the one I was responding too still misrepresents history and is to the benefit of the American political establishment (that being Washington and its business oligarchs). The person I was responding too wasn’t blatantly wrong, but the diction at use here is deserving of criticism. “Developing fascism” is an easy way to conflate both the Western European fascist culture and aesthetics and the historically unique proto-fascist (before fascism was defined academically) culture of the USA.
Neoliberal bootlickers like Johnny (“sell-out to the WEF”) Harris exploit this heavily to great effect on large for-profit social media sites: trading historical nuance for sensationalism. This isn’t a moot point it’s whats happening now.
Fair enough. I can see how the phrase “developing fascism” might mask the severity of the existing and growing problems within the U.S. To be honest, I wasn’t really aware of such differences, and think that myself and a lot of other people could learn a lot from that message. I’d be happy to discuss what we both think of as Fascism to make sure we’re talking about the same thing.
But also, that wasn’t really my main point. I’m not trying to minimize the faults of the US or demonize the Chinese political system. I of course know that there are a lot of forces contributing to the state that it’s in, and that there are a lot of factors that keep it that way. And I’m not even especially criticizing the idea of one-party rule.
But the fact is that there are many, varied human rights and freedoms being suppressed in today’s China, and those problems have been perpetuated or worsened under the control and direction of a single dynasty of leaders. I’ve read and watched a lot of accounts of political events in 2021/2022 from people who live inside and outside of China, and I’m forming my opinions on those. Stuff like the inhumane conditions during lockdowns, constant nucleic acid testing, corruption and negligence leading to huge wastes in the housing markets, etc. And I know that a lot of these phenomena were spun up due to how quickly China industrialized as a nation. But too many of them were brought about under the direct orders of Xi.
So when people see criticisms of China being challenged, whether or not they disagree with the idea of a dictatorship, they see it as a denial that those injustices are happening. I think more productive than arguing with someone who you perceive to be misunderstanding something, would be to ask them questions, see where their misunderstanding lies, and to offer information or sources that could educate them or help them educate themselves. When you go into the interaction assuming that someone is trying to paint with a broad brush and accuse them as such, then you’re going to get a lot of people to shut down, and then they’ll never receive your message.
control and direction of a single dynasty of leaders
What does dynasty mean in this context? Because Xi Jinping is not related to his predecessors in office. If you meant political cliques or political in-groups then sure? The CCP is not a dynasty/monolith and has over 98 million members. This is also to reference that provinces also have their own local governmental bodies as well. Plenty of criticism can be made for political delegation but dynasty-ism isn’t one of them.
The best way to help the Chinese people is to also understand why China is the way it is today, and understand one’s own role in this discussion. A lot of people are going to be shut down in these threads because these articles aren’t for us working class people. It’s for politicians: www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/…/text
Fearmongering always causes damage no matter how many of us are have good intentions.
It’s a good point. You clearly have a lot more knowledge about the situation than the average joe. Just remember to be empathetic with ignorant people like me when sharing it
There’s been both “China Best” and China being shady posts. We’ll never know for sure in this age of fake information. Might be that they’re trying to follow the Russia model.
Shitty things like… Flying within China’s ADIZ that happens to overlap with Taiwan’s ADIZ because Taiwan refuses to use the median line as their ADIZ boundary like China does?
Just so you know, when you insult someone like that without explanation. You push them away from your position. I will now make it my mission to learn everything I can about tankies to prove you wrong. 😃
You’re defending a dictatorship that pretends to be communist. China is closer to fascism than most of the world. Which you’d understand, if you weren’t a fucking tankie.
I’m not defending China, or Russia, or America. I’m just looking at media with a clear perspective. Which you would understand, if you had a skeptical mind.
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