lol I’m not sure who’s side to take here. I tried kagi and I can’t personally justify the cost. The free trial is hard to use because I perform a ton of searches in a day and I keep thinking “I should save free trial searches for a good use case”.
Also, not hard to believe a company would stick the privacy sticker all over their product and turn around and make money off my personal data.
But those “harassment” emails from the Kagi Owner/CEO to me read like a business person with a passion not understanding where these accusations come from. After reading part of that chain, I came out with the feeling that “Lori” just wanted to write some click baity stuff and didn’t really care to dig any deeper. Yes, AI products by a company right now implies they will use your data to train or sell a dataset to some other company. But I don’t see any damming evidence here, just assumptions.
If Kagi is serious about their privacy mission then they should release a clear ToS and a legally binding statement that they will not use our data or meta data for anything.
Click baity stuff? The dude wrote an opinion piece that was only seen by like fifteen people and only meant to be directly linked to folks they engaged with so they wouldn’t have to repeat their reasons for no longer using kagi but then the CEO obsessed over them and Streisand effected it.
As far as I can tell, Lori is just some rando who threw their opinion up on the most basic website I have seen in at least 20 years. They aren't a journalist from what I can see. Their site doesn't have ads. Why in the ever loving fuck would they make something click baity when they didn't really expect anyone to click it and seemingly aren't monetizing it?
It's just some rando who threw their thoughts up and then had them completely reinforced by a shitty CEO sealion-ing them.
Glad I’m not the only one. I was reading the article and then the Mastodon thread and thought I was crazy for feeling like Lori was at least just as bad.
I don’t know if you think I’m advocating against piracy or something but I’m not. I’m just saying Kagi is the same thing so might as well keep the $10/month.
I mean, that seems like a really sceptical way to live. Often things get shilled because people are just happy with the service and think the business is doing things well. I am a kagi user and have brought it up to some others, including outside of lemmy, because I find it produces better search results than ddg etc. And it’s a definite step up from google in privacy
Use Searx with “default [all]” language option. Use Yandex with a VPN. This combo is superior to anything else. Why? Because Yandex is Russian, and unlike western search engines, they ignore DMCA law result removal requests.
Yandex results are almost better than the old 2007 Google, with reverse image search and video search being the king as well.
I used Qwant extensively, until they became another business. DDG was made by a CEO that was in data selling business before, and censors for west government agenda, like Russia bad or Israel good. Mojeek is okay but… Yandex has no competition. Startpage is proxied Google, okay but also dicey ownership.
Digdeeper has a decent comparison of search engines on his blog.
We’ll try and get that okay up to a good and then a great as time goes by! There’s a submit feedback button on results pages if you’d like to be a part of that.
Yours is one of the only names that still carries respect for me. Indexing is extremely hard when the competition is Google, Bing and Yandex, but people need the result quality. Everything else will be fine with time and effort.
I’m still trying to understand searxng, does it start with nothing and build up its index each time you search? Will your results be rubbish for a while?
They promote their search engine but their users don't get to see ads. I don't know what's wrong about that. Every company advertises with its products. I don't see what's reprehensible about that.
We did not say we maintain anonmity, but privacy, which are two different things. For example. your parents may know everything about you, yet still respect your privacy.
They're right, anonymity and privacy are two different things. Since you have to pay to use Kagi, you're not anonymous. But they allegedly don't know what you as the user search for when using their search engine. So they're being honest here and how can honesty be bad here? Anyways, we're on privacy@lemmy.ml, not anonymity@lemmy.ml or whatever.
“AI is mentioned zero times”
While I still give you this one, they're technically correct. The word "AI" isn't there but they mention AI features, haha. It's a bit debatable since Vlad said "kagi.com" - which doesn't mention AI or AI tools. Only when you go to the pricing page there are mentions of AI tools.
I don’t think we have an argument except maybe on technicality, so I’ll do my best to use your points as a springboard for further clarification/critique of Kagi and not of you.
They promote their search engine but their users don’t get to see ads. I don’t know what’s wrong about that.
What’s wrong is Vlad had “That community is 100% responsible for Kagi’s growth as a business through word of mouth (Kagi does no paid advertising)”
And he should be the first person to know that statement isn’t correct.
may know everything about you, yet still respect your privacy.
The problem here is that nobody in this community will recommend a corporation that "may know everything about you but respect your privacy."
When recommending a messager service, common consensus always leans towards the one that knows the least about you.
This is because corporations can change or be forced to give up data, which would render the pinkie-promise of “we won’t” moot
I’ve seen an argument posted here or on Reddit that Google is technically private because they know about you and won’t sell ads; it’s basically the Kagi line. Basically nobody cares even if it’s true (and it’s turned out to not be true).
Vlad said “kagi.com” - which doesn’t mention AI or AI tools.
Maybe not the homepage, but the site itself is very explicit about AI being the point of their project. And if Kagi will change their statements about everything else on a dime, and have such poor views on privacy, why not also follow their own manifesto?
You can read their pro-AI manifesto on the Kagi.com domain right here.
You can read a critique of this manifesto and how it talks about you “volunteering” your data to search engines, and other creepy stuff, right here.
I’ve been using Kagi for a while, so I’ll post a few quick thoughts I had after reading the article, linked blog, and mastodon thread.
The one thing in the blog post I strongly disagree with is her statement that the summarizer is “the same old AI bullshit”. I think they just assumed that without actually testing it. The summarizer is fantastic, and is a great example of the right way to use LLMs. Its output comes entirely from the URL or file you specify. It does not hallucinate. You can ask it follow-up questions about the document, and again, its replies are limited in scope to what’s actually in that document. If you ask it something out of scope it’ll tell you that it can’t find that information in the document. This is great because it’s using the LLM for what LLMs are actually good for — complex language parsing — and not for what they’re bad for, like reasoning or information storage/retrieval. It’s actually quite difficult to misuse the summarizer. It’s straightforward and effective. This is Kagi’s killer feature, IMO.
I can’t speak as highly of its search-integrated AI features like FastGPT. They mostly take information from the contents of the first few search results, but they also seem to “fill in the blanks” more than I’d like. Sometimes it gives me information that is simply not in the sources that it cites. It’s not as bad as using ChatGPT (which hallucinates all day every day, and if it ever tries to cite source is hallucinates those, too) but it needs improvement.
That said, Kagi doesn’t shove the AI down your throat like you might think reading the blog post. These are separate features that need to be explicitly activated. Plain searches don’t return results from the LLMs. If you want that, you need to explicitly go to the assistant or trigger the “quick answer” feature on the search results page. EDIT: I just realized that this is not totally true as of a few weeks ago, when they added a feature to automatically trigger the “quick answer” blurb for search queries ending in a question mark. Perhaps that’s why Lori felt like it was over-emphasized.
Anyway, back to the summarizer, here is an example of it in action. I gave it the URL of the Mastodon post. I think this is an excellent result. I also asked it an unrelated followup question so you can see that it limits itself to the information in the URL. It will not make shit up!
The summarizer lets me download conversations in markdown form, so I’ll just paste it right in here so you can see.
The author wrote a blog post criticizing the search engine Kagi, which then prompted the CEO of Kagi, Vlad, to email the author directly to argue against the criticism. [1]
The author woke up to an email from Vlad, the CEO of Kagi, who was upset about the blog post the author had written. [1]
The author decided to publicly share the email exchange with Vlad, as they felt it was important for people to see his unhinged behavior. [1]
The author refused to engage in a private debate with Vlad, as they did not want to be taken “to Crime Scene Number Two” without any accountability. [1]
The author believes Vlad is unable to accept criticism or disagreement, and that it “eats him alive” when someone doesn’t agree with him or his company. [1]
The author states that no other search engine CEO has emailed them directly to “mansplain their company” in this manner. [1]
The author sees Vlad’s behavior as “petty and sad” and believes he has no understanding of boundaries. [1]
Other users in the thread share similar experiences of Vlad’s inability to accept criticism and his tendency to simply restate his own opinions rather than address counterpoints. [1]
The author and others characterize Vlad’s behavior as that of a narcissist who cannot tolerate disagreement. [1]
The author and others are amazed by Vlad’s decision to set up a separate company in another country just to print and give away t-shirts, rather than focus on improving Kagi’s core search functionality.
Assistant:
The knowledge provided does not contain any information about the capital of North Dakota. The context is focused on an email exchange between the author and the CEO of Kagi search engine regarding criticism of the company.
I’m not linking my personal/payment info to my search history because I hate being advertised to and from what I can see, there’s little in the way of scruples/forethought attached to this company. They’re going to sell that info if it isn’t hacked out of them first.
The GDPR conversation is hilarious. Sure they’re a US based company, but after 5 years of operation I would’ve expected them to have consulted a lawyer about this at some point. Forgetting (assuming it’s not “forgetting”) about the required documentation is not the worst thing in the world morally but it doesn’t exactly make them look competent either.
I read the article, and nothing in there seems to be a valid criticism of Kagi as a search engine. It’s all about the founder not understood GDPR, or how Kagi wasted money on free t-shirts, or the writers personal opinion on AI.
This is largely an opinion piece. It has merit as such, but please don’t take this article as factual journalism.
I think the author makes that clear early and repeatedly and it isn’t ever framed as anything else than a walk through their thought process. I’m surprised you even felt this comment necessary. The article anchors heavily on privacy as a focus, and if you don’t care about that so much then all you have to worry about is a company that spends a couple hundred k of their startup money on t-shirts.
So…even if their search is perfect, and you don’t care that they really just want to charge you for search while they use you to train their AI, it is a paid service, so criticism of their ability to manage money is valid as an overall product review too though.
I agree with you. I just felt it necessary to inform those that read comments and not the article itself. Especially because (here’s my opinion) I feel that if you don’t pay for a product, then you ARE the product. Even if Kagi isn’t perfect, the payment model should be supported to foster this kind of internet.
I feel that if you don’t pay for a product, then you ARE the product. Even if Kagi isn’t perfect, the payment model should be supported to foster this kind of internet.
I agree with you, and I would just balance your statement out a bit and say that while the payment model should be supported, we should be wary of weak business models or predatory marketing that open up the door to just a different flavor of enshittification.
My 100-search trial expired this week and I was literally planning on subscribing later tonight. This has made me think twice.
But it takes me back to why I tried Kagi in the first place: What else can I use that respects privacy?
I don’t think any of them do completely. DuckDuckGo uses Bing, so is Microsoft; Google is… well, Google; Brave is apparently really shady; I’ve never thought much of the results from Bing directly. Startpage seemed ok but apparently uses Google.
What else?
I also like something to be integrated into the browser. As a Mac user, I can’t add new search engines to Safari (and have actually switched to Orion, but may now switch to Firefox or back to Safari).
I use Startpage and am happy with it. Yes it uses Google, but Google can’t track you as they can only see that the search came from the Startpage server. You also don’t get any of the AI summary or sponsored link bullshit. Beyond that, you could try SearXNG which can aggregate results from many engines.
Yeah I had SearXNG running via a Docker container and it was pretty good. I didn’t like having to use a domain name and expose it over the internet though, because Docker is running on my NAS. I guess I could give it another try using Cloudflare tunnels so I don’t have to open anything up.
Also as a Mac user who went from Safari, ended up using Orion up til recent Kagi drama, and found LibreWolf. It works well and I’ve found it to have better compatibility versus Orion. I’ve used that with Searxng for more private searches.
You’re not going to have much luck finding a search engine with good results that doesn’t depend on google or bing. Kagi is no different. Using a searx instance is probably best if you’re looking for something without official agreements with bing or google. Edit: Here is a list of independent search indexes I just discovered in another thread seirdy.one/…/search-engines-with-own-indexes/
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