Welcome to today's thread - #CrossBorderRail 2024 Extra Days 7 May - La Ciotat - Nice - Ventimiglia - Limone - Breil-sur-Roya - Nice - La Ciotat
Crossing these borders:
Cap d'Ail 🇫🇷 - Monte Carlo 🇲🇨
Monte Carlo Country Club 🇫🇷 - Monte Carlo 🇲🇨
Ventimiglia 🇮🇹 - Menton Garavan 🇫🇷
Olivetta-S. Michele 🇮🇹 - Breil-sur-Roya 🇫🇷
Limone 🇮🇹 - Vievola 🇫🇷
@SuVergnolle Indeed! I’m looking forward to this - I missed going to these lines in 2022 due to a train strike so I’ve been looking forward to this for a while!
@jon When I was living in Nice, I took them quite a lot. Did a ballet internship in Monaco and had to use the Nice - Monaco line every day. I realized at the time how important and busy this line was (and unfortunately, not always on time 😫).
As for the Italian coast and limone it’s just 🤩 for me but this might be due to my unconditional love of Italy. 😗
Enjoy the trip and looking forward to reading your experience (it’s been a very long time I did not use these lines…)
@SuVergnolle indeed. It’s heavily used, and the infra is close to capacity and outdated. But improving it between Marseille and Nice is hard - hilly and quite dense population!
Loads of commuters boarded in Saint-Raphaël, and despite air conditioning blasting strongly the CO2 PPM isn’t great. The air con must be set to circulate and cool, not draw much air in from outside.
@jon@DiegoBeghin I think I blogged about this years ago - the Riviera has an inversion of the usual commute pattern by class, in that working-class people in the tourism industry work in Monaco near the train and office workers work in Sophia-Antipolis far from any public transport. (As you note, these are workers and not tourists; the tourists in the Riviera don't take the train unless they're railfans.)
@partim would be handy to know. Because if what I was told in Ventimiglia holds this is one of the most stupid border ticketing issues I’ve encountered.
@jon Checked now. The trip was in September 2022. I don’t have the actual ticket any more, but it cost 7.60 from Cuneo, so unless they increased prices since, I want to say it was to Tende, not to Olivetta.
@jon Cuneo – Olivetta is 8.20 now, so it is possible that I bought that and there was a sixty cent price increase since. But then, Cuneo – Tende would have been an international ticket and might have been more expensive than a domestic one for the same distance.
@partim@jon It was probably a Cuneo-Olivetta ticket. The international TCV fare has always been far more expensive than an Italian ticket to Olivetta. Years ago, however, it was possible to buy international tickets at ticket offices and, if I remember correctly, also at ticket machines
@cruentapolvere@partim Cuneo - Breil, yes, buying to Olivetta would be cheaper. But Cuneo to Vievola or Tende, surely the international fare should be cheaper than to Olivetta? And I can confirm from yesterday’s bitter experience you can’t buy Limone to Vievola or Tende at a machine.
@cruentapolvere@partim I asked the train manager on the way to Limone (northbound). She told me she could only sell me a ticket to Olivetta (southbound).
When you’re about to board a really scenic #CrossBorderRail train - Ventimiglia-Limone - and the windows are dirty. Take matters into your own hands! 🙂
@mario@jon systematic checks at Menton Garavan coming from Italy, documents of each passenger were checked every time I have been through. I get the impression that there are fewer checks at Breil-sur-Roya coming from Italy, but I only pass through there a couple of times a year.
Migrants anecdotally seem much reduced in number compared to this time last year.
Do Italy and France have a “Kilometerpreis” any more that’s standard? I need a ticket from Limone to Vievola, as from Vievola and purely by km ought to be cheapest. In France I’m covered by a French TER ZOU ! Pass. @wrzlbrnft@partim do you know? #CrossBorderRail
#CrossBorderRail 2024 Extra Days 7 May Train 5 of 8
R 22959
15:20 Limone - Breil-sur-Roya 16:43
Trenitalia
Train type: Alstom ALn501 DMU, 3 carriages
⛽️
🚲: ✅
🦽: ✅ (Limone not accessible though as far as I can tell)
🛜: ⛔️
🍽️: ⛔️
🧳: 🙂
🧽: 🙂 (cleaner than this morning)
Ultimately I conclude Vievola 🇫🇷 is one of the oddest stations I’ve encountered on #CrossBorderRail
It’s in France but only served by Italian trains
But no one can sell you a ticket to go to Vievola from Italy - because no one can sell tickets from Limone or Ventimiglia to any station between Vievola and Breil-sur-Roya, but at least all the other stations are also served by French trains
@R1Rail Sort of. Even had the border stayed where it was you’d have this problem at Breil sur Roya that’s been French throughout the whole period of the line’s operation, even pre 1947.
Like really WTF. I get that between Milano and Paris Trenitalia and SNCF compete. There they might not want to sell each other’s tickets. But here through Breil sur Roya they operate PSO supported services that complement each other. Politicians from PACA, Liguria and Piemonte need to come down on both like a ton of bricks and fix this shit. #CrossBorderRail
And the lobbyists from Community of European Railways want politicians to believe that if you leave state railways to it they’ll fix ticketing problems.
Come to Breil sur Roya and SNCF and Trenitalia can’t get the basics fixed here - for two complementary publicly subsidised train services 🤦♂️
Also the maps in this region… conveniently forget 3 stations on the bit of line circled - because SNCF doesn’t serve those. Yeah it doesn’t exist if SNCF doesn’t serve it!
@jon I think if it's a diagram of the line or set of lines, then only showing rails and stations served by the line/operator is perfectly logical. There's the SNCF logo too. It would probably confuse people more if they showed stations they don't serve, or show a complete national railway map. too much irrelevant detail, I'd never expect a complete depiction of the world from such a diagram.
@jon oh, they don't use that route at all? sorry, that wasn't clear to me, I understood they run through it without stopping. In that case, it doesn't belong there! (or maybe dotted and with stations, ideally even with name of operator, to illustrate someone else's service)
@KarlE no they don’t run it at all. So either it ought to not be there at all, or be there with stations. Tbh these services on these lines overlap so much they’d do well to better integrate the SNCF and Trenitalia offer. Oh and Vievola is on, and only Trenitalia trains serve that one!
@jon Oh sure. And that's true everywhere (cue comparison on prices etc).
But the fact Nice's population (and the people who tend to go there and around) is overwhelmingly affluent, coupled with the fact that Nice already has a massive well-connected airport (3rd biggest in France, iirc), has to be a big factor in the total absence of momentum toward a Marseille-Nice TGV…
@jon Paris-Nice could be a ~4h30 TGV… Very much competitive against flights.
Instead, it's a ~6+h ride → only the most committed will opt for that over a cheaper flight.
@deivudesu and all the ones in the morning were OUIGO last I checked.
But even before you talk high speed, are they making the best of existing infrastructure here? Absolutely NOT. You can provide better in this region on the existing lines.
And there’s this sign at Breil-sur-Roya - with 2 train lines to Italy - where they’re going “tough shit if you want to go to Italy”. It might almost be worth emailing Letta about this
@jon 🙃 I think the only one that I had without WiFi in the last couple of years must have been the "Heide-Express" - Harbug to Hannover and back on a Saturday. I prefer the one via Uelzen usually for various reasons, including the WiFi. 🤷♀️
#CrossBorderRail 2024 Extra Days 7 May Train 8 of 8
TER 81662
21:58 Toulon - La Ciotat 22:25
(It’s actually the late running 20:58, but the data is still the same)
SNCF for TER ZOU!
@jon passenger information is not good either: I was trying to use that train last year when there was strike action in a french signal box. no one in Italy was able to tell me whether the train was running or not, even at the counter in Ventimiglia (turns out it was not actually). In Trenitalia IT systems, the train does not exist outside of Italy.
@bovine3dom@jon Wait - „Fermeture de la ligne Nice-Tende“? What‘s going on there? Are they seriously planning to close the line? And if so: Will Limone-Breil-Ventimiglia (operated by Trenitalia) be affected as well?
@michael_h@jon They're doing work on the tunnel between Sospel and L'Escarene. The SNCF is using that as an excuse/opportunity to not run any trains at all and refurbish them. Won't be any TERs running until that's done. September 2024 - December 2025 planned.
Trenitalia trains will still be running. In fact they might run more as they've been planning on running one of their new "touristic" trains on the line, IIRC
@bovine3dom@michael_h they ought to run to Peille or L’Escarene (I forget which has two tracks). But SNCF, and a branch line - sooner close the lot! (Oh and there are regions with AGCs spare - leasing a couple while the PACA ones get renovated would not be hard)
@jon@michael_h I really get the impression that they view the line as a burden rather than the huge opportunity that it is. A fast direct train from Nice to Limone could be a big hit with skiiers, for example.
Instead we have a line that is so badly maintained that it has (if memory serves) a 10km/h speed limit on sections. Sections that they aren't even going to upgrade during the closure...
The timetable's so bad that when the tickets were free after Tempête Alex the trains were still empty
@bovine3dom@michael_h indeed. Nowhere between Breil and Tende does it exceed 40km/h, but the design speed is 80! And yes there are a few places it’s slower still. And the French parts are worse than the Italian parts.
@bovine3dom@jon Ah, that‘s the reason, thx. But SNCF‘s approach to solving the problem (closed tunnel) is IMHO „misrouted“ literally: They could learn from Trenitalia and route TERs between Nice and Tende via Ventimiglia-Breil 😉
@michael_h@jon even fixing the timetables would be great. The first train from Nice gets to Ventimiglia at 06:31 and the first Italian train to Limone leaves Ventimiglia at 06:18. The next one leaves at 10:39...
@bovine3dom@quixoticgeek@michael_h and by some amazing luck I still don’t understand Marseille - Nice - Ventimiglia - Genova timetables did get fixed in December (you don’t get stranded at Ventimiglia 1 hour 56 mins now). So maybe there’s a tiny hope..?
@quixoticgeek@michael_h@jon while we're here I'd like to complain about how colossally stupid it is for the signs in France at the station to all say Ventimiglia but for the signs on the trains to all say VINTIMILLE
So many needlessly distressed tourists panicking that maybe they somehow got on the wrong train
@bovine3dom@michael_h there’s sod all political will to fix this stuff though it seems… But I’ll do my bit and put this one in my priorities list and write it all up!
@jon Oh my goodness, this crap is not just limited to #Luxembourg! I was trying to purchase a train ticket from Bettembourg to Strasbourg, only to find out that I had to buy two separate tickets in the end (and had to provide many details for one of them)... Can you believe that the train is even free in Luxembourg? #CrossBorderRail🚂💔
@jon the really annoying thing is that soon there will be no SNCF trains running on the line for a year or so because of work on the line going up to Breil from Nice but Trentitalia trains will still be running. But there's no sane way to buy tickets for them...
@jon Last time I looked there was a special section in the local trentitalia rules saying that if you got on at one of the stations in France you were allowed to buy a ticket from the guard, but no details on what tariff you could expect to pay.
@jon Thanks, that's good to know. Very frustrating that they won't make these things more human friendly. They've already tunnelled through the mountains, selling us tickets should be the easy part
@jon I imagine this line of the Tenda railway must be one of the greatest fuck-ups of cross-border-rail traveller experiences between two G7 nations, in terms of e. g. timetable and ticketing 🤯
@jon Thank you! Apparently, it's not yet implemented on all levels. Need to check how it looks on my mobile in Tusky. There it shows up - but when I'm home I simply prefer to use my computer and the way bigger screen. (Not to mention the full keyboard... ⌨️😀 )
@BDeutelmoser I admit I was a bit surprised at how slow the take up of these newer Emojis has been. But I’m also not keen on stopping using it as there’s no ready alternative.
@BDeutelmoser it’s been quite a day. I’ve discovered an amazing region. But I’m hopping mad about the rail companies’ inability to cooperate. This is going straight into my highest priority fixes list.
@jon I feel so blessed that we have the #Deutschlandticket now. I just dread the day when they will rise the price and totally forget people that get social benefits or are low income - because there's no nationwide ticket that takes this into consideration. #Sozialticket
@jon One of my favourite travel destinations is the UK. Apart from the fact that there's no ferry from Hamburg to Dover (or any other harbour) anymore I mostly use NationalExpress tro travel though the country: It's cheaper (because I book early) and more comfortable with luggage. Although the overnight coach from Heathrthrow to Penzance was a nightmare last year: Driver shortage and we got stock along the way because there was no replacment driver. 🙃 Could that be a result of #Brexit?
@BDeutelmoser UK on Interrail is amazing value though. For something other than simply a return trip have you considered that? There aren’t even reservation fees, mostly. @wrzlbrnft & @NymeHess have both been posting about it recently! (And while I’m from UK I’m very seldom there these days)
@jon Return trip won't work when you head from Penzance to Cardiff and then back to Heathrow. Also: I'm travelling with a smoker as my travelling budy. 😂 I think you get where I'm going with that. I am well aware that there's the Night Rivera from Paddington to Penzance - I'm a trained travel agent so I have checked out all options. From Stade to Penzance would take 24 hours by train. 😳 Last time I checked I couldn't buy a ticket that would cover the whole journey online. 🙃
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