@hailey decades ago, after mass protests against injury and death caused by microsoft, the Netherlands announced that they would begin supporting Linux first for most needs throughout the country
(very good actually once you adjust to it being different, many problems simply disappear, but stuff isn’t designed for you and it’s frustrating but you make do, also people go out of their way to aggrieve you)
@scherzog@hailey I actually own an e-bike and it's still impossible to use for me; trying to climb a normal hill here, even with maximum legal assist and on the lowest gear, leaves me so acutely in pain I can't really continue
@scherzog@hailey it was really disappointing. and, regretfully for the Linux analogy, I tried to jailbreak it only to discover that while I could circumvent the speed limits (something a lot of people care about and I don't), circumventing the average power and more importantly torque limits would require me to reverse-engineer more awful Renesas binaries than I ever want to have in my life
@scherzog@hailey even getting to that point required a 200 GBP proprietary dongle and a Windows app with so much DRM you'd think MPAA wrote it. it included a custom kernel driver that protected code segments of a .NET application from inspection and a custom mscoree.dll wrapper, and that was not even the most concerning part of the whole system
@aud@hailey@scherzog I don't think anything can be worse than a Shimano or Bosch e-bike. I would never buy a prebuilt one after this experience; conversion kits seem like the limitations in them are at least easier to circumvent
@whitequark@hailey@scherzog that was sort of my hope as well, in that in theory it has to be at least somewhat configurable since the frame you’re slapping it onto is variable. I haven’t done much besides confirm they exist and could be had for about 300 Euros though, and I have no idea if those are any good.
The whole e-bike thing is weird because I’m pretty sure the motors in scooters can be more powerful (watts); obviously scooters are different and the motor must supply all the power, but still, what a weird set of legislative conditions exist right now. Like I think the power of the motor has a maximum in the EU?? Which is weird because obviously people have different masses and carry different amounts of stuff and…
@whitequark@hailey@scherzog yeah, I was really excited until I saw the 250W limit. I know in the U.S. you can nab ones with like, 1000? Or you could at some point. I don’t want to go at breakneck speed, but it would be nice if I could carry heavy groceries up a hill. I get the speed limit; I’d even understand an acceleration limit for assisting. But whhhhhhy the power limit.
@aud@hailey@scherzog possibly because if you set a power limit the bikes will be designed to a price point and therefore the limit couldn't be bypassed by manipulating the firmware
I keep seeing electric skateboards around here. I can’t imagine those are legal in any shape or form. I bet they have kilowatt motors on them just because.
@aud@hailey@scherzog they do! I've looked into these motors for non-skateboard-related reasons, they're absolute beasts
the range of what I've seen is from 250 to 1200 W, I don't know what people put on actual skateboards, that's just from window shipping. also the amount of lithium under them is downright concerning
@whitequark@aud@hailey@scherzog so the way the European power limit regulations are written is kinda fucky, but I think they’re set at 250 W to try to avoid e-bikes being significantly faster than typical manual bicycles with typical riders on dedicated cycling infrastructure (they’ll still be faster on hills, but not much faster). this (and the 25 km/h speed limit) of course ignores countries that follow European regulations and don’t have good dedicated cycling infrastructure and expect people on bicycles to mix with cars…
…however, the regulation used to define the power is one that is pretty clearly written to prevent a manufacturer from giving a motor an unrealistically high rating - the process is, essentially, the manufacturer makes their “best estimate” of the power the motor can sustain for 30 minutes at an RPM that at least 90% of the maximum power can be produced at. if it successfully makes that best estimate, it’s good to go.
a lot of manufacturers have an incentive to make sure they only estimate that their motor can sustain 250 watts, even if it can actually sustain a lot more. the higher-performance Shimano, Bosch, et. al. motors are well over 600 watts peak, and they can sustain more than 250 watts. (this is also why European market motors advertise torque, rather than peak power. if they advertise peak power, what they’re doing to defeat the power limit regulations will be more obvious, but if they’re all advertised at 250 W, it’s not obvious that the more powerful ones are more powerful.)
@whitequark@aud@hailey@scherzog also, the regulators in Europe are, AFAIK, trying to require all sorts of DRM to try to prevent modifications to the speed limiters on e-bikes (they seem to be more worried about the speed limit than the power limit)
@aud@hailey@scherzog@whitequark also, there is a class in Europe that does allow significantly more power, in exchange for requiring registration, licensing, and insurance - L1e-A. basically this is a class meant for ICE mopeds that are limited to 25 km/h and 1000 W, but is allowed throttles (and more power).
also there’s L1e-B, the class for 50 cc, 45 km/h, 4 kW mopeds, and some EU countries have a subclass of this (that still requires registration, licensing, and insurance) for high-speed pedal-assist-only e-bikes (although they all, AFAIK, allow a lot less power than L1e-B’s maximums)
but in both cases there’s limits on where they can go that don’t apply to regular e-bikes
(meanwhile in most US states, we have the “class system”, which is basically a mix of European and US federal regulations. the federal regulation is just 750 W (but nobody knows how this is actually defined), must have pedals, and the motor on its own can only get up to 20 MPH on the flat with a 170 lb rider. the state class system expands that to class 1 (20 MPH pedal assist only) which is allowed everywhere by default in most states, class 2 (20 MPH with a throttle) which is allowed everywhere paved by default in most states (but not on dirt), and class 3 (28 MPH pedal assist only, except in New York where it’s 25 MPH because it’s only allowed in NYC where the speed limit is 25 MPH) which is generally only allowed on roads. none of this requires licensing or insurance, and AFAIK the only places that require registration are those that require it for all bicycles (like my city 🙃).)
@bhtooefr @aud@hailey@scherzog@whitequark
Fwiw In the places where ive lived (Oregon and California) this is essentially not enforced - I personally know about a dozen people who ride bikes that go >30mph and none of us has ever gotten stopped for it (ive gotten stopped for disobeying other traffic laws but the cop didnt look twice at the bike which is 100% illegal). Probably different in EU/UK where there actually is bike infra and thus actual safety concerns, but ya in the US you can basically do whatever for now.
There's a guy who has the same commute I do who rides a converted BMX bike that can do 45mph (72km/h) and he wheelies past me all the time.
@whitequark@aud@hailey@scherzog Yeah, Bafang mid-drives (BBS02, BBSHD) are so easy to modify that you can do it via web page. Of course, self-installing a motor and then buying a separate cable to change firmware settings isn't helping with that "bikes are linux" analogy.. 😏
@aud@whitequark@hailey@scherzog Yeah, I got the BBS02 on my main bike because it's cheaper. BBSHD came on a (used) cargo bike that I got though, and I love it.
They are just supposed to even out slopes and wind a bit, and accelerate to 25 km/h faster. They are not supposed to be electric scooters, those already exist.
Also regarding torque and all that: there's a mechanical limit to what the motors can do too. Most can do no more than 250W while those on pedelecs go to 350
@whitequark @scherzog@hailey
That sucks. Idk if this is still the case but there are at least used to be a ton of bikes that were well over the legal power and speed levels - just on a rocker switch for front or rear motors, each of which was legal in isolation, but the rocker conveniently had a middle position that engaged both. I have one that I ride basically like a motorcycle incl up hills and right by cops all the time. Hopefully u find something that works for u ♥
@whitequark@scherzog@hailey On a https://www.pony4.bike/ with a pinion 12 (or 14?) gear box I can pedal myself through a meadow and also uphill on rather steep slopes.But to keep doing that for some distance is no fun.
Too many occasions are built just on car mobility.
@neuimneuland@hailey I have an e-bike and even with maximum assist and lowest gear it is too painful for me to ascend half of the hills around on the bike; I have to spend half a hour doing this by hand or be in so much pain I have to sit down on the pavement or wherever because I can't stand anymore
@whitequark@hailey That sounds awkward. Either there is something wrong with the bike, with your driving or I suppose your body is in a somewhat bad condition (which isn't meant offending or something, just a guess).
@neuimneuland@hailey I'm disabled (fibromyalgia), yes. you'd think an e-bike would be a useful assistive technology but it's not, at least not if I stay within the completely batshit legal limits for power
@whitequark@hailey For disabled persons, there are many special bikes to address individual issues. However, I don't know what e-bike related limits do apply in your country.
@hailey for me it’s more like “nicer than alternatives, but subtly annoying in different ways, and i’m supposedly able to fix by myself but never figured out how to”
@xarvos, the complexity of a modern bicycle is so low and the design is so transparent that with all required tools and a day to waste you can reverse engineer everything to adjust loosen stuff and figure out what needs replacing. I basically fixed up two bikes in the last few months, one of which revived from a rather bad shape. A more realistic problem would be parts’ availability, or rather, availability at a reasonable price.
Can’t say the same about the mentioned kernel, especially when involved hardware manufacturers not disclosing semantics. Modern computing is very fucked when it comes to fixing things and the only known solution is to not the compooter. But hey, they’re putting general compooters in vehicles now, definitely going to make them more safe and fixable.
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