Old folks like me remember the Eighties when the civilized parts of the world decided that the South African and Rhodesian apartheid states were no longer acceptable and systematically excluded them from sports and culture and commerce and, basically, civilization.
To me it seems plausible that #Israel is heading down a very similar path.
For those who don’t remember, apartheid’s number one argument in its own self-defense were “You may not like what we do but our neighbors are much worse, so criticizing us is unfair and unbalanced.” Sound familiar?
@timbray there was also an extremely sophisticated propaganda apparatus for keeping the question of ending apartheid out of the Overton window. I just started reading this book; hard to remember how effective the campaigns were!
@timbray Israel is different from apartheid South Africa. Israel has no legal system of apartheid. Israel aspires to insure equal rights irrespective of race, religion, or gender. There are numerous Arab Muslim Israelis who can attest to this equal treatment. In contrast, the National Party of South Africa in 1948 essentially said, "Here is a system of racial segregation. We call it apartheid." Apartheid was a stated policy of South Africa, whereas it is merely a characterization of Israel.
@escarpment Oh, of course, Israel does not constitute “minority rule” in any meaningful sense. I’m just talking about the process of the world running out of patience.
@timbray The world never "had patience" for Israel. Before Israel's founding, Jewish immigrants to Palestine faced xenophobic and antisemitic violence from the local population. When Israel declared independence (with the UN's blessing), this violence escalated to a full blown military conflict. The message to Jewish people has always been "go home, outsider."
@escarpment I'm not talking about the Palestinians, who have been repeatedly and comprehensively crushed by Israel. I’m talking about the wealthy democracies who are the gatekeepers of commerce and culture.
@timbray I will grant you that the "wealthy democracies" are "losing patience" with Israel because the propaganda of the regressive extreme right (Hamas, Iran) has somehow wormed its way to becoming a celebrated cause of the western progressive left.
@escarpment Nah, it's simpler than that, it's just the video of slaughtered children.
The rest of this conversation is predictable so I’m checking out. Israelis I think do not recognize the risks of the path that Netanyahu is leading them down. I understand you think I’m wrong and that’s OK. Bye.
@timbray Furthermore, Israel is not "heading down" any sort of path of isolation. It has been scorned and isolated since its inception by antisemitic governments who persecute Jewish people in their citizenry and therefore do not tolerate a Jewish state. This condemnation has taken on many forms throughout history, from Zionism is racism (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_3379) up to today's accusation of apartheid.
@escarpment Being an old guy, I have to disagree. During most of my life, Israel has been seen as a shining beacon of progress and democracy and technology and so on, and received plenty of support from basically every civilized country.
@timbray@escarpment A country can be a beacon of democracy and economic prosperity, and still do some f'ed up sh*t.
The USA, for example.
The problem is so few can avoid the trap of "river to the sea", on either side. Israel is a legitimate country that has a right to exist and defend itself, and the Likud party's rule over the last 30 years has been fucked up for the Palestinians.
Too many people assume commenting on one implies an aligning opinion of the other.
@timbray The term "civilized country" is subjective and fraught. The countries that historically have condemned Israel are the likes of Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Egypt, Algeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, and others. These countries have historically been under the USSR and now Russia's sphere of influence. Many would probably take offense at calling these countries uncivilized. This bloc is constantly devising new propaganda to discredit Israel.
@escarpment It wasn't the pressure from that kind of country that took the minority-rule regimes down. I will accept that I could probably find a better label than “civilized” but it’s pretty obvious what I mean - wealthy democracies.
@timbray I would view the history of South Africa in less moralistic terms, or less in terms of historical "progress". South Africa is now an increasingly corrupt state that grows increasingly closer Russia. They bring a genocide case against Israel to the ICJ but stay mum about Darfur and refused to arrest Omar Al-Bashir over Darfur.
@escarpment Astonishingly similar to South Africa's PR line back in the day, always saying criticism was unfair because other people were worse. After a while it stopped working.
@timbray It's already happening. I hear about people from academia who feel unwelcome. Someone who almost got a good position in a university abroad just got rejected "because it's not a good time for this" and people are reporting that they are gaslighted.
@hananc It’s not gonna get better. Unless there's a path in Israeli politics toward a saner future, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't know what the “saner future” looks like and how such a path might become available.
@timbray the comparison is pretty weak. The white settlers in S Africa had a founding myth of pure domination. Israel was born of the Holocaust. It was easy to exclude just another white European state. To exclude the only majority Jewish country is a much more sensitive affair.
@guacamayan I grant all that, but larger and larger chunks of the population, especially younger cohorts, are becoming alienated from Israel. Those dead children on TV are a real PR problem. My hope is that a more lovable Israel will emerge once Bibi departs. Don't know if that hope is reasonable tbh.
@timbray yes, things have changed. What worries me is that instead of saying "we don't want to look antisemitic so we'll keep accepting Israel," some people might move to "if it's antisemitic to oppose Israel, I guess I'm antisemitic."
Add comment