Now compare the attitude your government and your officials have. When Russia invaded, The West decided to massively arm Ukraine so it could defend itself, but when Israel started mass murdering civilians, YOUR GOVERNMENT KEPT ON ARMING THE AGGRESSOR, ISRAEL!!
The F-16s Zelensky begged for? Israel has them, and is using them to destroy hospitals and bomb refugee camps.
We, in the so called Global South, see this. And we will remember.
@argumento
> Israel started mass murdering civilians
You're having it wrong. It's Hamas, the ruling party in Gaza, wrecked a bloodbath killing about 1400 civilians in one day. Compare it to Ukraine that never did such atrocities.
Recall Hamas firing rockets at civilians so that Israel has safety rooms in every home. Compare with Ukraine which didn't.
Though I don't really like the idea of comparing a terrorist state of Hamas with a democratic Ukraine.
@argumento@palestine 6th Oct - ~0 deaths. 7th October - over ~1400 killed by Hamas Palestinian terrorists. That is why Israel is now after every single terrorist hiding amid civilian population of Gaza.
@argumento@palestine I've seen you running and accusing everybody of lying and waging genocide. Fuck it, the terrorists you're fronting did film the killing themselves.
I'm not the only one accusing Israel of carrying out a genocide, Raz Segal, Francesca Albanese, Illan Pappé, Finkelstein, Craig Mokhiber, and the lawsuit the South African government submitted to the ICJ also claim Israel is carrying out a genocide.
Why do you believe you know better than all of them?
Nothing that happened on October 7 justifies the mass killing of 23 thousand people, more than 7 thousand children. The destruction of Mosques and Churches, of urban infrastructure both in Gaza and the West Bank. The mass detention w/om charges of Palestinians, that have reported torture and some of them dying under torture. "Execution style" killings by the IDF.
@argumento@palestine And you thought after Hamas would kill 1.2K Israelis, Israel would do what? Acknowledge the long standing conflict? Kill the same number of Gazans in return? Sure they'd be coming after every single terrorist to stop it for good.
@argumento@palestine Because I've seen reporters asking a demonstrator at a 'pro-Palestine' rally whether she knew what has happened on 7th Oct and she replied negatively.
So I'd rather judge for myself rather than joining your mob thinking.
1 demonstrator said something, so Craig Mokhiber, who resigned as UN Human Rights official over what he called "the inaction" of the UN over a "textbook case of genocide" is wrong.
And you call what I do, researching and reading on the subject, "mob thinking".
Because you are an European, and Europeans tend to think of themselves as superior to "the jungle" that lies outside your "garden". That's why when you see brown people fighting for their land and their right you go to the "evil terrorists, islamists, jihadists" racist mindset.
I'm quoting Josep Borrell on the "garden vs jungle" thing. Borrell is the head of the EU diplomacy. The EU is a democracy (or at least it claims to be), so Borrell represents you.
If you can blame all Palestinians for Hamas, I can put Borrell's words in your mouth, and further shove them in with my foot.
The International Criminal Court is irrelevant here. South Africa has brought its case to the International Court of Justice. It's a few blocks away from the ICC, but it's an entirely different court.
Israel is a racist, apartheid State, and its very existence is an act of extreme violence against the Palestinians they displaced in the Nakba, as well as those who lived decades under military occupation, as those who rot in Israeli cells without charges.
@polezaivsani By that logic of eye for an eye and tooth for tooth Hamas is doing anything but terrorism, engaging in justified retaliation for Nakbah and 76 years of humiliation and death at the hand if the occupier.
@dung_eater Sir, you better be careful trying logical rigor on social matters in general, and your twisted kind of reasoning in particular. @palestine@argumento
@argumento I wager it's only natural to do it when that's the subject matter. Not that you didn't repeat apartheid a whole bunch of times. @dung_eater@palestine
When I first saw this, my first thought was that it was satire. Because, as a social scientist and critical theorist, logic is in fact essential to my work. Your statement is, in fact, off the asinine dial.
My second thought is that it could be interpreted as a threat: "Sir, you better be careful . . . " doing what I would say is a completely reasonable thing. This puts you far beyond the pale.
Your claim that Hamas killed over 1400 civilians in one day is false.
Israel has adjusted the number to 1200, they oficial figure is no longer 1400.
Those 1200 are not only civilians, that number includes veterans, police officers and soldiers.
A number of the people murdered on October 7, maybe up to a hundred, were killed by the IDF, that attacked with tanks and helicopters building and vehicles, killing Israeli in the crossfire. Search Hannibal directive.
the simple solution is to hold everyone accountable for any war crimes they committed. killing civilians is a war crime. genocide is a war crime. (here’s the specific case being raised against Israel if you’re interested https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192) per the definitions given in the Geneva convention. You may have your own views, but international law is pretty clear on this.
Per the same laws Israel has the right to proportionally defend themselves, this operation in Gaza is doing far more damage than Hamas did. Everyone calling for a ceasefire is doing so for humanitarian reasons, nobody is saying that Israel hasn’t the right to retaliate against Hamas. They just don’t have unlimited license to destroy the Palestinian people as a whole in the process.
@mapachin I agree, everybody should be held to account of the same rigor of international law.
At the same time I'm sure Israel is targeting only the sites they believe host or are used by terrorists. If Hamas used separate facilities from the civilian infra, I'm sure there'd be minimal civilian casualties. @palestine@argumento
When the IDF took the Al Shifa hospital by assault, all they provided as evidence of it being utilized by Hamas was a Coran, a curtain, a couple of AK 74U (that witnesses say the IDF planted themselves) and a sheet of paper with the days of the week.
So let me be skeptic about "Israel only targeting the sites" where the resistance is.
(That is but one example, I can quote a dozen different ones)
@argumento@mapachin@palestine
I'm not claiming that Israel is free of fault here. Btw, there was at least some cctv footage of terrorists bringing in hostages there.
When army goes after a terrorist group hiding among civilian population in a densely populated region, there certainly will be casualties among civilians, awful accidents, bloody mistakes and everything in between.
That doesn't make me happy one bit. Though I can't think of a better response should've terrorist attacked my town.
What do you think about the Algerian FLN putting bombs in cafés killing civilians, as part of their war of liberation?
A sad necessity brought up by the cruelty of French occupation (that had bombed villages to repress the Algerians), or do you think they didn't have the right to use any means necessary to free themselves of occupation?
@argumento Allow me to answer this from my gringo perspective, or at least the one I was indoctrinated into believing.
When the IRA does it, it’s bad but not terrible – mostly anyone you ask, unless they are die-hard conservatives – will just call it “a necessary use of violent means”.
But when non-white person does it, it’s terrorism. The same reason we call gun violence and literal terrorist attacks in American schools “school shootings” instead of what it is.
But I know you already know that, calling someone a terrorist absolutely diminishes any reason and context leading to such attack, dehumanising the perpetuator in the process. Which, as we both know – is very convenient for the establishment.
That’s why the fucking Kurdish resistance including Rojava (I am aware they are not called that anymore) is viewed mostly the same as ISIS in my home country.
@dung_eater In my country, white people are calling one's fellow white terrorists to be criminals. Even the terrorists themselves after some time admitted that their practice is wrong for many reasons. @palestine@argumento@mapachin
Of course terrorism is wrong, war is a terrible thing, hurting another human being is an act of cruelty. But when you don't have any other mean to resist violence being done on to you, when you have no other means but terror to fight terror, you do. Even Gandhi acknowledged the right of people to resist violence violently, he just though non-violence was better.
@polezaivsani Why would that matter when you’re basically pulling out “but Hamas” argument when discussing tens of thousands of civilians murdered by a nation state our governments fully support?
@dung_eater Because you tried portraying terror as a racial matter. While Hamas' attack is the direct reason the IDF brought about the retaliation. @palestine@argumento@mapachin
Arabs gets to live in occupied Palestine because they are the original population of Palestine, and the ethnic cleansing of 1948 wasn't complete. It's all in Pappe's book.
Arabs, Armenians, Ethiopian Jews, are NOT citizens of Israel, because Israel is an apartheid State and only Jews are full right citizens.
@dung_eater No, never been there nor in Gaza or West Bank. If you're going to berate me for talking of something I have no first hand experiences, then I would only retort that I haven't been to space either, without it being a stopping me from explicating about stars (just an example, not that I know much about stars). @palestine@argumento@servelan@mapachin
@polezaivsani so let me just say that I have (Tel Aviv) and that let me witness border controls and absolute fuck ton of IDF soldiers and metal fences everywhere. No country treats it’s citizens that way, especially when those pointed guns at and stuck at the controls were Arabs, not Jews.
You not only don't have first hand experience, you are biased and refuse to see reality. You have been proven wrong a dozen times in this conversation: on the number of deaths on Oct 7, on the friendly fire on Oct 7, on Arabs, Armenians and Ethiopian Jews having the same rights as Jews in Israel, and every time you just dodge the bullet or cover up your ears and go "la la la la la la, Hamas Hamas Hamas". Please, stop being a clown.
@dung_eater Oh, never did I claim to love the idea of walls and fences. Not one bit.
I see it as the lesser evil (compared to all out war) when people can't reach unanimity with the seething confrontation. This ugly fence is monument to a human failure.
These means cannot bring about peace. I wish more people on both sides of the wall would realize that cohabitation is the only peaceful option.
@polezaivsani Well, I’m glad you’re privileged enough to just state the victims of colonisation and apartheid are equally responsible for their situation as their perpetuators are.
@dung_eater Again, this one-sided bigotry. These victims had committed a bloodbath couple months back and I don't see the 'cease fire' folks mourning them much.
How about Palestinians go and build a flourishing state rather than lobbing rockets?
@polezaivsani Oh, we absolutely do. Fuck Hamas. But then, Hamas is not Palestine.
And treating the Oct. 7 attack as in vacuum and as an attack commited by the Palestinian civilian populace experiencing genocide right now is what leads to said genocide in the first place.
How about Palestinians go and build a flourishing state rather than lobbing rockets.
There’s so much wrong with this statement I will not even humour you further. Stop being ignorant piece of shit.
@crashglasshouses I’ve checked it out, as a matter of fact yes, Otto Skorzeny and numerous other fun war criminals were recruited by the Israel to train Mossad.
@jeremy_pm The occupier rhetoric is I believe meant to dispel a conversation. I don't want to have another lengthy discussion on the meandering history of the conflict. @argumento@mapachin@palestine
It all started with the British mandate over former Ottoman colonies, that was unlawful and an imposition on the Arabs by the European powers. During the British Mandate, the UK favored the migration of European Jews to Palestine. Not only that, when the Brits saw the Arabs as a people to be dominated, they saw the Eruopean Jews as their allies in occupation. That's why the armed and trained them.
Then WWII happened, and the British enroled the Jewish colonists of Palestine in their army to fight Hitler, and provided them with more weapons and training.
Then, as the Jewsih population ammounted to about a third of Palestine, the British decided to gran them more than half the country, and set up an "Arab state" in 42% of Palestine. To which, obviously, the Arabs refused.
Then came the fateful year of 1948, and the Nakba.
The Nakba was the name the Palestinians gave to the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, which is carefully studied in Illan Pappé's book of the same name (recommended reading).
In that year, BEFORE the Arab armies intervened, the Jewish terrorist groups Haguena, Irgun and the Stern band, committed countless killings, destruction of buildings and whole villages.
After the Nakba, Israel occupied almost all of Palestine, with the exception of the West Bank, that ended under the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan's control.
And that was the situation until the war on 1967 and the UN resolution 242, and the "Land for Peace" Israeli plan, all of which opened (or at least appeared to open) the way for a two State Solution.
Yet, the Two State solution was never achieved, because Israel didn't want a Palestinan State, because Israel, both left and rifght wing parties, wanted the WHOLE of Palestine to set up their Apartheid Jewish State.
I can quote both Illan Pappe and Mark Regev and even Netanyahu on this. But I'll let Caitlin do the talking while I drink my coffee:
I'm gonna skip the Yom Kippur war, and fast forward to the Camp David accords. Supposedly, those were meant to end the conflict, and to allow for a disjoijnted Palestinian State in 22% percent of Palestine, Gaza and the West Bank.
But the "Palestinian State" wasn't really a State, as it didn't control the borders, airspace, international trade, nor had it right to engage in diplomacy w/o Israel supervision.
A part of the Palestinian resistance saw the Oslo and Camp Davis Accords as a betrayal of the struggle to liberate all of Palestine, and rightfully so, so they continued the resistance by different means. Including the unarmed first and second Intifadas, and the rock throwing and other ways of struggle. To no avail.
Each time, the IDF (or IOF as its better called) responded with disproportionate violence.
All the time, the Israelis kept on grabbing more and more land in the West Bank and Gaza, although the illegal (as per the 242 UN resolution) settlements in Gaza were dismantled when the IOF stopped the direct military occupation. (Can't remember the year, following the Oslo and Camp Davis accords).
Israel also isolated the Palestinian cities and villages in the Wes Bank, building massive walls and highways.
If memory doesn't fail me, it was after the Israel's represion of the first Intifada that Hamas was founded. Up till that time, the Palestinian Resistance was mostly secular, both with Nationalistic and Marxist-Leninist tendencies. But the Oslo agreements and the inability of the Palestinian Authority led to the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) taking a front role.
The Israeli, following the maxim "divide and rule", foster Hamas, let them have funding in different ways. In Netanyahu's own words, Hamas was the tool to keep a Palestinian State from happening.
Then the 2008 elections came, and Hamas surprisingly won them over secular (and corrupt) Al Fatah.
Israel, the EU and the USA were not having it, and despite the popular vote, they supported Al Fatah in not transitioning power.
This led to the current situation. The "Palestinian Authority", with very low popular support, rules over isolated enclaves in the West Bank, and the Islamic Resistance took De Facto power on the Gaza strip.
The Gaza strip is a strip of land. It borders with Egypt to the south and is surrounded by "Israel" (occupied Palestine) on all other flanks. It has been called "the worlds biggest open air prison" and "the worlds biggest concentration camp", because it's basically surrounded, people can't go in or out, Israel control what comes in down to the number of calories it allows per capita.
Gaza is not a State, Gaza is a concentration camp. In that situation, the Islamic Resistance broke from the prison on October 7. And they are entitled to defend themselves, a inmate in a concentration camp has the moral right to fight to free themself, even if they need to kill the guards, even if they need to kill the guard's families. They are fighting for their freedom. But it doesn't end there.
At least two intelligence bodies, the Mossad and the Egyptian Intelligence, had prior knowledge of Hamas planning an attack, and, at the very least, they were inept, if not complicit, with it happening.
What would that imply, why do I say this?
Because Israel has ALWAYS, from day zero, pretended tom keep all of historical Palestine to themselves. And this is documented in history books.
@argumento arguement, judging by how you're bursting with caps I suppose you're about to explode and mar what little humility the discussion had with more crap. @jeremy_pm@mapachin@palestine
@polezaivsani
Did you even read that whole finely written short history or are you just a fascist?
I think the latter due to you labelling colonialism and genocide resistance as “terrorism”. Imagine calling those brave Jews who resisted and survived the Holocaust “terrorists”. That’s what you’re doing.
@cwtshycwtsh, you go easy on your woke kool-aid. To get back to your senses a bit, try reflecting on Hamas, the ruling authority in Gaza, wrecking a bloodbath on 7th October killing ~ 1400 people. Try answering yourself what where they thinking, how the massacre was to bring about peace.
Once you get back to normal, come back I'll tell you about the great terror of Russian communists.
on October 7th 1139 people were killed, some of them killed by the IDF
the October 7th masacre wasn't too bring peace but to stop the occupation, or at least to draw attention to the unbearable life the Palestinians have been living for the last 75 years
if you are unaware of the occupation, you can't understand Hamas and the only explanation you give yourself is 'they hate Jews". Too simple.
The figure of 14 hundred deaths has been debunked more than once in this conversation. Even quoting official figures. How long are you going to keep repeating the same false statements?
You really, REALLY follow that thing about "a lie repeated a thousand times becomes truth".
I'm glad to see you can change your mind if presented evidence.
This is a 2 decades old documentary on Palestine, made by award winning journalist John Pilger. Please make some time to watch it, it's rather balanced and interviews many Israelis, as well as Palestinians.
@argumento The film, does shed mode gory detail on what I mostly knew.
I don't want to pretend to know better how to untangle the mess except for keeping nourishing awareness and empathy on both sides.
Seems to me that none of events since 7th Oct are conducive to this end. Again Palestinians are chanting 'from the river to the sea' and Israel is scratching their heads on how to go about Gaza.
@argumento How is current state of affairs helping Palestinians to build a sovereign state?
Kill a thousand people to draw attention (as some say here) and call out Israel on genocide? Sounds rather ridiculous to me.
I'm not here to tell any of the sides what to do, other than to retain what shatters of humility and compassion there are still left. And carry on inching to a better faring.
@argumento Get down from you high moral horse, and tell me with a straight face that none of ancestors in say a century or two had dabbled in some such acts? Mine did, and I'm sure there where moments where I could've be seen on either side of the injustice.
Yes I do understand what apartheid means, and you don't moralizing doesn't seem to offer anything of a value to me. Unless you're willing to explicate the broader aspects of just. @ridicol@cwtshycwtsh@jeremy_pm@mapachin@palestine
@argumento I find your rhetoric likewise deranged.
You keep abusing history to acquit the bloody massacre. You (figuratively) kill a thousand people and then go around crying about the injustice from past decade or two. W/o mentioning a word how the Gaza has been run for a decade by a mostly internationally recognized terrorist organization.
Stop telling me about injustice until you're willing to admit your own faults.
@argumento Go read some history to learn what's the deal about terrorism and why it's universally despised.
If you believe that that's an acceptable device, then you must also accept the consequences it comes with and stop crying when the other side hits back.
Though I find it (the prem and cons) to be abhorrent. You be you.
You claim the decades long crimes of Israel against Palestinians are "gory detail", and also claim that Palestinians don't have the right to fight to end them, yet you call me a racist, whitey.
Your mind and morality is so perverse. Defending Palestinian’s is defending Jews and every ethnic or religious group who have been historically persecuted by another group. Defending Palestine is defending everybody’s right to live in peace with dignity. #NeverAgain means Never Again.
If you don't want to continue, Vasilii, then just shut up.
From the river to the sea is a slogan calling for liberation. Calling for an end to an apartheid State and ethnic cleansing is not the same as calling for ethnic cleansing. It's just your narrow perspective and your racist bias that makes you think so.
@argumento you're have my permission to shut up to, argumento.
When a whole lot of people perceive that slogan as antisemitic, then either that many people are racist, or there is something wrong with the slogan. My biases take is that it's the latter. @jeremy_pm@ridicol@cwtshycwtsh@mapachin@palestine
Vasilli, you are wrong. The reason why white Europeans perceive the slogan "from the river to the sea" as antisemitic IS because they are racist. No one else in the world feels that way. I might add that it's also about the collective guilt Europeans have over the Holocaust that, funny enough, happened because white Europeans were racist and antisemitic.
White supremacist and racism as a system are European inventions, they heavily influenced European culture and are they key feature of Europe's relation to the rest of the world, either as a justification for colonization and slavery, or as part of a paternalistic attitude.
Read Frantz Fanon, Cedric Robinson, I forget the names of the authors but there's The Invention of the White Race and How the Irish Became White.
From the River to the Sea Palestine will be Free. This is a call for a return to a free Palestine for the Jews, Muslim’s and Christian’s who call this land their home and have lived there together in peace for centuries. The only group advocating and acting out a genocide of the indigenous Palestinian people are the Zionists.
The Zionists originated from Europe not Palestine.
@jeremy_pm I'm not willing to start that discussion again, we're obviously holding different views on it.
Me, I'm not swayed by your take on the meaning. There is too much double entendre in it to consider it benign. @argumento@ridicol@cwtshycwtsh@mapachin@palestine
Your argument re Putin is the same argument the USA and Israel use against Palestine, however, Palestine are the Ukraine in this scenario.
Israel is an occupier of Palestinian land.
As #GenocideJoe said in 1986; The U.S. would have to invent an Israel if it didn’t exist.
Hey Vasilii, what are you gonna do in a few days, when the ICJ rules there is a genocide (or risk of thereof) in Gaza? Do you think you'll have an aneurysm, or just cognitive dissonance?
@jeremy_pm Donetsk and Lugansk are 'Palestine' and it's fucking well obvious. Ukraine's military, thanks to the same scumbags arming israel, is second in size and firepower to the Russians, in the region. Fair fight guy, and Ukraine WILL end up like FORMER Yugoslavia. All that's left is Montenegro, and all that will be left of FORMER Ukraine will be Kiev. Meanwhile, Z will... see image 🤣 @polezaivsani@argumento@ridicol@cwtshycwtsh@mapachin@palestine
@polezaivsani
They are absolutely not similar. One is a slgoan used by oppressed peoples. The other is a talking point of an invader. The only thing similar to Putin's speech is #Israel 's rationalization of "freeing #Gaza from Hamas". But in typical #Zionist fashion, you invert reality. @jeremy_pm@palestine
@polezaivsani
and if those "lot of people" use that very same slogan to proclaim their own--and only their own--freedom on stolen land, what is it then?
@gwit I'm mildly amused as the amount of crime you're willing to accuse me of. Some of those had plenty presence in my lineage, others not. Just as it did for yours.
Are you trying to assume the role of victim to acquite your crimes?
Terrorism is not a political label it’s a description of actions. The biggest purveyors of terror on the planet are the USA yet they, like Israel, are never prosecuted for their crimes enabling them the freedom to pursue their global crimes.
@jeremy_pm I want you to cut expand your narrow woke horizons to see how myopic your 'from the river to the sea' stance is. That blow for blow act in which a whole lot of people are dying the more you push it.
ok, but there's a difference between raiding the hospital to find evidence of Hamas operations and leveling the building, right?
the issue is that Israel continually uses excessive force when operating in this very dense urban environment. the way you're phrasing this dramatically minimizes the actual damage being done AND ignores the compounding damage to the Palestinian people that will continue to take its toll long after the campaign ends because of the heavy damage to civilian infrastructure. which, incidentally, is also a war crime.
@mapachin I'm poorly positioned to judge what better ways IDF might've taken.
Though I've seen them admitting their mistakes on a bunch of occasions, something I've never heard Hamas do. That gives Israel some credibility. Though I would welcome a thorough objective scrutiny of all the facts and put the perpetrators on trial. @palestine@argumento
@polezaivsani@mapachin@palestine@argumento you're poorly positioned to be saying anything. you already admitted that you don't want to understand the problem, probably because it makes it easier for you to say a bunch of racist nonsense and claim you didn't know!
@polezaivsani Murdering 20,000+ civilians, most of whom are were literal children, some of them not even 1 year old (!!!) is not a “bloody mistake”. It’s an indiscrimate murder.
@polezaivsani@argumento@mapachin@palestine if you don't like "terrorists" "attacking" your town, consider not murdering them for generations and subjecting every new generation to mass murder. that might help.
@polezaivsani If this was true, they wouldn’t have targeted houses of individual journalists as they did. And the tradition of murdering journalists is quite a long one in Israel. The same goes for humanitarian aid and UN peacekeepers. Israel killed numerous ones.
Who the fuck fires on medical staff? Who in their right mind explicitly targets journalists? Oh wait. I know. A war criminal.
@not2b Because Israel isn't known to be indiscriminately destroying cities. That's my predisposition.
I've seen no evidence showing that they go after civilian infrastructure at will. Though I've seen a number of sham accounts spread by the 'cease fire' folks.
Doesn't mean I'm going to dismiss the fact to the contrary, but so far I didn't see much, apart from the folks yelling apartheid and genocide every few words.
@not2b Was there a map that showed which parts are used by terrorists and which aren't?
Deliberation means they destroyed something w/o there being good reason for them to do so. @mapachin@palestine@argumento
@polezaivsani@mapachin@palestine@argumento No, deliberation means that they did it intentionally. I deliberately drove to work today, and there was a good reason for me to do so. Maybe they feel that they have a good reason to completely destroy the city of Gaza; they certainly did so very effectively.
Clearly we aren't going to convince each other, so I'm going to mute the conversation.
@polezaivsani@mapachin@palestine@argumento The problem with this argument is that it says a military objective trumps civilian casualties, and is very close to collective punishment's perfectly fine.
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