It’s an exceptionally bad idea to get the state involved in picking which interpretations of a religion are going to be defended.
Cyprus pretty much has this kind of law, and the Chruch loves tormenting even dissenting Christian theologians or prominent people of faith who disagree with the Church with it, let alone critics who aren’t part of the religion at all.
Soooooo, did Danish government just announce that they will fold and accept any demand if enough people, not necessarily even living in Denmark, make threats of terrorism and murder? Because it kinda sounds like they did…
Woder if it would also work for, I don’t know, universal basic income, 3-day weekends or lower taxes?
They did it to curb carbon emissions… So many sacred books burned recently by people who can’t/won’t even read them. They could at least burn the thing AND plant a tree
You bet I am, but if burning books was the only or worst thing they did I couldn’t care less. Which is why it has to be legal for individuals to keep doing this. Doing it in the name of a government or powerful organisation - this is where it really starts to leave a bad aftertaste.
And just to be perfectly clear, people like me being pissed about something obviously won’t and shouldn’t be enough reason to ban anything. What definitely should be illegal is political meddling, something that connects religious groups in the US more with the religious extremists abroad this proposed law seeks to appease than some Dane with a Quran and a matchbook.
Religious minority? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, is currently neck and neck with Christianity, and is predicted to account for 70% of all religious people in the world - by far - in the next couple of decades. Minority? Pssh!
Not a link to a Quran quote, but it mentions the 3 main ways Islamic teachings state to dispose of old/broken Qurans.
1.burying 2.placing in flowing water 3.burning
Also a fun fact, these only pertain to The Quran in Arabic. Any other language is not considered to be literally Allah’s words and does not have to be discarded in those ways.
Yes, I am proud to say that it is. Burning the danish flag is barely a provocation. The law is intended to stop individuals from provoking or threatening foreign nations, who may feel differently.
It looks like most countries in mainland Europe either restrict flag desecration in general or desecration of their national flag.
Of the mainland Europe countries for which data exists, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, and Romania permit it, and Denmark prohibits desecration of international flags but permits desecration of the national flag.
It looks like the British tradition is to permit it -- the UK, Ireland, Australia, the US, and Canada permit it (though New Zealand does not).
It looks like most countries around the world prohibit desecration of their own flag but permit desecration of those of others.
The only other countries that take the Danish approach (permit desecration of own but not of others) are Uruguay and Japan.
It looks like Europe is actually one of the most-restrictive places in the world in terms of flag desecration. Few countries around the world restrict both desecration of one's own flag and the flag of other countries; almost all are in Europe, with only Israel and South Korea doing the same outside of Europe.
There’s a difference between burning books because you want to eliminate what they contain, and burning the holy text of the religion you suffered under. I think it’s bad for people who weren’t raised under oppression justified by Islam to burn the Quran, but the person who started all this was an immigrant from Iraq. To some people the Quran is a symbol of peace love and their deeply held beliefs. I’ve known wonderful and liberated women who wore hijab. But to others it’s a symbol of brutal oppression, like the Iranian atheist lesbian I once met. The fact is that this situation is far more morally complicated than many equivalents would be.
I don't think that the interesting question is really whether Islam is a good idea or a bad idea. I think that the interesting question is whether a form of condemnation of anything -- Islam, another religion, or anything else -- should be prohibited because some people don't like it being condemned.
You dont need to burn a Quran to condem Islam.Also it is not a form of constructive criticism. What would you say if people flock to burn Torahs instead? Would you also tell the jewish organizations that would protest it to be less sensitive?
Replace Islam with Judaism and it becomes less clear. Hatred towards a religious minority can get really fucking bad and should be stamped out. But also hatred towards your own oppressors is always justified.
Burning a religious text as a public demonstration isn’t a mild condemnation. It doesn’t fall within the realm of civil discourse.
So yeah I think it should be allowed unless Dutch people start actively targeting Muslims. At which point the right to such demonstrations may need reconsideration.
Hmpf. In my opinion this is not as great a threat to atheism as it may seem. As far as I understand it is still allowed to defame Islamic text in other ways e.g. by shredding or exposure to extreme kinetic forces.
Wow, giving in to the threats of people from another side of the planet. Plus don’t they really have any idea what it says about non-Muslim people? Especially women? And of course children!?
Anybody who publicly mocks or insults the religious doctrine or worship of any religious community lawfully existing in this country will be punished by fine or imprisonment for up to 4 months
So Denmark got this Blashemy Law off of the books in 2017, and they’re ready to bring it back.
For those people who do not understand why this law was made it is because not that long ago in Denmark a crazy man burned the Quran which resulted in a lot of havoc which resulted in hundreds of cars that were either burned or destroyed so for something like that to not happen again they banned burning religious things
I don’t think that applies here. Why would you ever burn a Quran IN PUBLIC? If you are not religious, or subscribe to other religions, why would you even own a quran? Quran burning in public has only one purpose, to provoke hate. Same as burning flags in public. Or hating certain groups of people in public. None of it is allowed or ok to do.
If you burn that thing at home or throw it in the trash, nobody will care. Otherwise it just falls into the “incite violence” category of things, because that is exactly the thing you are doing.
If moslems then go into a rage and be violent themselves, that isn’t ok either, that should be clear.
You should be allowed to display your beliefs in public, regardless of how enraged they might make others. You shouldn’t be allowed to make direct threats, but anything else should be fair game.
I completely agree with you and @pizzazz. Keep in mind though that in most European countries some harmless displays of belief are already banned, for example burning the national flag.
Then in Germany and Austria you can be arrested just for looking at a swastika on your phone.
This is provided those beliefs are not offensive. If someone finds those practises offensive then do them out of the view of the public.
Religious violence should have a law encompassing this. People should never be allowed to use religion as an excuse to use violence: this is why we have a legal system. I do not understand why most countries in Europe are tolerant on this when it comes to the Muslim and Jewish communities.
People are idiots who follow a crowd. Give me one justification for the Kardashians. Look at how long it took for gay rights laws. And then look at how long it is taking for those laws to be accepted. We still see homophobic and racial acts today. Relying on the good of people is simply crass.
Democracy means letting people with other world views exist in peace.
Please consider how you want to be treated by this world and how you can make your own positive impact on humans around you.
I am an atheist myself and will vehemently defend secularism but your comment boils down to hate and demanding others have the exact same beliefs as you do.
No, it stops you from burning a religious symbol in public. Secularity means that state and church are separate, which is a different matter. A lack of secularity would mean you can go on trial for not following the word of some god e.g. for loving someone from the same sex.
These are terrible and should be fought.
Bu this particular law is stopping assholes from being assholes.
Book-burnings also had a severely terrible history in the 3rd reich and are nothing but demonstrations of power, hate and close-mindedness.
I view all religions as a threat to humanity. I question the people reading books that were written thousands of years ago and believe the bullshit stories contained within them…
I´m an atheist myself but let´s be reasonable here. While things like not properly separating church and state, religious extremism and fundamentalism are obviously threats to a “free” society, it is an overstatement and a generalization to say religions in general would be.
Kinda unsettles me a bit. To be clear, I don’t want violence. But I also don’t think that burning an object should be punishable. And that goes for stuff like my country flag, my pride flag, my bible. People should have the freedom of expression, even if their expression is a bad take or a waste of paper and nylon.
I just wish everyone could be more chill. Half the people need to quit being assholes, and the other half need to take 12 seconds to calm down and not freak out over something small. We have much bigger things to freak out about that we should be (constructively) freaking out about, like the collapse of entire food chains due to overfishing.
They should, violence absolutely works. It’s just that no one knows what it’ll cost until it’s all over, and there’s no way to know until it’s done. Using violence is going all in, and only a fool thinks they can never lose.
While I’m sure most people doing this are just irl trolls looking for outrage rather than making any deeper political point, the return of blasphemy laws to Europe after we spent so long removing them and lowering religions influcance seems like a backwards step.
They can say what they want, but when they’re adding special protections for one piece of literature as it’s a religious one, that’s what they’re already doing.
Yeah, reading the article you want to comment on is difficult. Requires actually putting in 10 minutes of effort instead of just being outraged at a headline
It’s a law that protects religious books in a way non-religious books aren’t, just because it offends religious people. I don’t understand how that’s not a blasphemy law, Book Edition.
What you can’t do, is grab the microphone and say muslims are subhuman worthless rats that does nothing but chug camel-piss and beat their wives.
But that has nothing to do with book burnings, no? Either that was already illegal hate speech or it won’t even be affected by this new law.
Book burnings should stay legal exactly because they aren’t degrading anyone. Just an object. They are only inciting violence from the very religious POV that the books themselves hold the rights a person has. But they don’t - and they shouldn’t. Comparing violence towards things with violence towards people is simply being dishonest, or in the worst case it means adopting the perspective of religious extremists.
Book burnings should stay legal exactly because they aren’t degrading anyone.
So, you’re going to decide that no one can feel degraded by having their religious scripture burned, just because you can’t comprehend the feelings others.
That’s a very strange take, given that we’ve all seen what the reactions of Muslims around the world has been. A fair amount of them clearly feel very strongly about this. It is after all, their, scripture.
It’s not just extremists that are upset. We should not give in to extremeists demands under threat of violence, But just because they want something doesn’t mean there isn’t other good reasons to do it.
But that has nothing to do with book burnings, no? Either that was already illegal hate speech or it won’t even be affected by this new law.
It has everything to do with incitement against ethnic groups. Which is exactly what they’re trying to expand
They are only inciting violence from the very religious POV that the books themselves
Yes! That is. Incitement against ethnic groups. You’re targeting a specific ethnic group with your action, and you provoke and insult them for belonging to that group.
Just like if you burn an Italian flag outside of the embassy of Italy. Italians would rightfully be upset. So you’re not allowed to do that. Or will you use the same logic there “they are only inciting violence from the very Italian POV that the flag themselves”?
You still don’t seem to understand, you will be able to burn any good damn book you want. Just not in public. Not in the town square. Not outside of an embassy.
They’re not telling you can’t do it. They’re telling you where, you can’t do it.
You will still have the freedom as an individual, to go into your back yard, and burn as many books as your heart desires. Hell, you can even invite all of your friend so they can come and watch you burn books.
The public act is exactly what should stay legal. This is not a debate about fire hazards and matters of insurance after all, it is about the right of expression, and that is a debate about behavior in public.
So, you’re going to decide that no one can feel degraded by having their religious scripture burned, just because you can’t comprehend the feelings others.
They have the right to feel like however they like. You for example are free to feel sad, angry, happy, horny, offended, relieved, or anxious about this comment of mine. But none of those are what I intent to incite. So you feeling one way about my comment shouldn’t be the only consideration when it comes to questioning if my comment should be legal. It shouldn’t be disregarded altogether either - but the right of expression is an incredibly important legal asset, and such a trade off shouldn’t be made lightly.
A book burning with calls to violence against humans - that, definitely, should be (and is) illegal. A book burning as an expression of “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” - that is not a call to violence, that is a valid expression of your democratic rights. Intent matters.
We should not give in to extremeists demands under threat of violence
What you’re debating and arguing for does not exist. You do NOT have the right to express yourself in any way you see fit. You are constrained by the laws governing your country. And believe me. There are laws against certain types of expression.
Burning forgein flags is a form of expression. You are not allowed to do that in public. But I don’t see you going on about how it’s infringing on your freedom.
You quote half of what I said to then reply that “but in effect we are”.
Had you quoted the entire thing, the answer and retort is already there. If you don’t sleep at least 5 hours in the next 5 days I will spit at your house and piss on your cat.
Are you giving in on my demand by sleeping at night? Or is it because of other, unrelated reasons?
Your whole argument of, I should be allowed to express myself in any way shape or form that I see fit. Is not a good one. Because you do not have that right.
How many times have you gone out and burned books in public? Do you typically attend book burnings? Is that some holiday you have that you need to preserve. You go out and burn a Bible every other week?
Or is this a thing that no one does. Except those who wish to provoke and insult? Can you mention any book burnings in recent times in Denmark that was not about provoking and insulting?
What you’re debating and arguing for does not exist. You do NOT have the right to express yourself in any way you see fit.
I agree. You’re mistaken if you think this is what I ask for. I’m saying the consideration of weighting individual freedoms against each other mustn’t be taken lightly and in this specific case the freedom of expression should win.
Your whole argument of, I should be allowed to express myself in any way shape or form that I see fit. Is not a good one. Because you do not have that right.
My actual argument is this: When it comes to book burnings, since there’s no harm done to anyone and no call to harming anyone either, the freedom of expression should be given priority over religious sensitivities. This would be different if there was something harmful being done or incited, but the only things that really are in danger here are books and the only people taking offense with that are people who think specific objects should be treated as more than a book by everyone in- and outside of their religion.
How many times have you gone out and burned books in public?
Never, but that would be an extraordinarily bad argument for or against any kind of freedom.
My actual argument is this: When it comes to book burnings, since there’s no harm done to anyone and no call to harming anyone either, the freedom of expression should be given priority
Those on the opposite side would disagree. There is harm being done. not all harm is physical.
This would be different if there was something harmful being done or incited,
The act of burning it is incitement.
but the only things that really are in danger here are books and the only people taking offense with that are people who think specific objects should be treated as more than a book by everyone in- and outside of their religion.
As mentioned many times. You are not allowed to burn flags of forgein nations.
You can use the exact same arguments. It’s just cloth that’s in danger. Only people of that nation is taking offense. why should everyone outside of their country have to care about their flag?
Why should their sensitivity triumph that of my right to burn flags?
In this case. We already have a standard that is so similar to what is happening.
a flag is a symbol for a group of people. so is the quran.
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