@StoicLime
> what are you using as an alternative?
I never really used Titter. My account was just a sock puppet that echoed my posts from my Mastodon account. I'm posting this from Mastodon right now, but I also have a Friendica account, and I'm keen to check out CalcKey. All of these, like Lemmy, are part of the fediverse and interoperate with each other.
(sorry if that's obvious to you but it's not to everyone so I'm spelling it out)
I went back to Mastodon. Had to move my account twice more to find an instance a) I really gelled with, b) took the safety of marginalized people seriously, and c) did not hesitate to pushback against the hateful stuff.
Sometimes I feel like my reddit experience was so different from a lot of people's. I unsubbed from all the default subs and built a specific homepage for the things I found interesting. Unfortunately for me, that means the communities were (relatively speaking) smaller than the popular ones, but still large enough to have frequent engagement. Going to be hard to replicate that, I think.
My approach as well, it took me a long time to realize why I got weird looks saying I browsed reddit at work. My page was opensource,computer, tech, stuff with some other hobbies.My friends was just porn lol
It is the solution, the problem is that it’s too complicated for your good ol’ Joe. they just want to quickly sign up, doomscroll through the algorithm and maybe contribute a little as well. One of social media’s key perks/flaws is its centralization.
“Servers? Instances? Is this a place to connect with my friends or a goddamn server room?”
I agree. It's been fun and challenging to learn even just as a user. I work in tech and it is a lot of concepts to grasp and understand. So much potential though!
People said that about reddit, I don't think Lemmy is anywhere near being too complex for the average user. More that social medias generally favor simplicity because simplicity is easy to control, modify, and generally nudge from a developer side trying to guarantee a very specific use case that generates money, rather than just naturally occurring social systems.
Let's be real, humans have been dealing with social networks far more complex, systems more complex, for almost all of human history. The sheer volume of people, no, but the actual processes of interaction, yes.
“Servers? Instances? Is this a place to connect with my friends or a goddamn server room?”
That's not a property of of federation (see email and websites) it's just because early adopters are a little wired. In any new social phenomenon, it takes a second wave of adopters (first wave of followers) to bridge the wierdos from the masses.
Cue this classic study in leadership: https://youtu.be/hO8MwBZl-Vc be the first one to follow the wierdos and show the masses it's cool.
But couldn't it be made easier? Who cares which server a community or a user is registered on. I register where a friend sent me the link to and from there on it shouldn't matter and could be handled in the background.
The big sites are also not one central instance. They have several distributed instances all managed by the same company.
Future instance owners and moderators don't want users and communities to be able to migrate seamlessly. Mastodon has the same fatal flaw. They want to keep your history and relationships hostage so you can't leave. This is the only thing turns signup to Lemmy and Mastodon into an important decision you don't want to get wrong. That's why you have to read and read and read before signing up and be a Lemmy expert before choosing the right instance for you.
Of course by this time 99% of users have gone back to Reddit. And the 1% that stays still feels like a huge wave.
Also many elitists are happy signup is clunky, it filters out the rif raf and the common Joe. It creates an exclusive space where everyone uses Linux, loves anime and don't like sports.
A place with no cultural relevance ree from eternal September.
And while you can't directly transfer the history (the debate over how/whether to do this has gone on for literally years), you can export an archive you can keep locally, and there are tools out there to parse it and convert it to some other form (static website, whatever). Someone's probably written an importer by now, though I'd have to look.
Future instance owners and moderators don’t want users and communities to be able to migrate seamlessly. Mastodon has the same fatal flaw
This is misrepresentative for a few ways.
For one, you can in fact migrate your mastadon account, fairly easily in fact.
For another thing, instance owners and moderators don't really get to choose whether migration is possible, the code contributors do. I suppose instance owners could start forking their own version of lemmy to make that harder, but ultimately there will always be folks willing to host the "best" version, and so people will just leave
Fediverse will go through what Linux went through. Be seen by businesses as an existential threat. Then face FUD and EEE campaign.
One day, likely earlier than Linux witnessed the rise of RedHat, Google, Facebook as prominent businesses that became poster children for Linux, new or existing businesses could be built around and/or on fediverse. They may as well come together to form an ActivityPub foundation similar to the Linux Foundation for all we know.
Email went through similar trajectory too. SMTP, IMAP, pop are are open protocols. Yet we have a sort of oligopoly on email.
Similar to how Windows did not die away because Linux came along, existing social networks may remain in existence. The availability of fediverse as an alternative would keep them busy
Personally, I don't think replacement should be the goal. As others have said, a better, more likely outcome is that the Fediverse become a viable alternative to big social media (in the eyes of the public) & an influential part of the ecosystem.
And anyways, the Fediverse is a solution for me - and others, presumably - but it probably won't be the solution for social media influencers, terminally online political provocateurs, people stuck in the endless, algorithmic (and psychologically manipulative) stream of 'content' which Big Social offers, advertisers, etc. As long as people have those sorts of relationships to social media and as long as capitalism and consumerism exist, big social media platforms will always be around to capitalize on that and fill that niche.
Plus, the barrier to entry for the Fediverse is technical skill, which has impeded its accessibility to the broader public. While making the Fediverse more accessible and cultivating that technical skill and know-how in the public are both things I support, I appreciate the more intentional social media communities which are forming around here and are able to grow sustainably quite possibly because it's harder for the average person to wrap their head around. It reminds me a lot of the older days of the internet.
The best thing for that, IMO, is for the Fediverse to continually exist in its decentralized state and provide unique examples of how social media could be, for it to keep growing slowly, for average people to come here of their own volition, see how things are here, and decide on their own that they want to be part of it.
I’m new to the fediverse. My biggest gripe about big social media, is that the signal to noise ratio (SNR) is very low. My hope is that since this isn’t a solution for the folks you mentioned, that the SNR will be much higher here.
We are still missing basic tools, like the ability to import full history from one instance to another. To import posts and comments, not just followers and those we follow, or lists (which often isn't functional as on my current instance). Frankly we should be able to import history from non-fediverse social media too, if one has output files from them. Nobody I'm aware of has built a single tool to help them navigate those histories, let alone import them.
Some people are working on that. Calckey will soon be able to import posts from twitter (can alerady import from mastodon). Pixelfed can already import from instagram right now!!
Kbin and lemmy are very late in that regard. You can’t even migrate your social graph.
I'm unable to do that on pixel.infosec.exchange which is the pixelfed instance I'm on. Is there some trick to it or is it just not universally available yet?
This kind of import is something that I would absolutely love to see, but some backend stuff has to be figured out. Unfortunately, importing and creating thousands and thousands of posts can absolutely hammer a server, and it gets amplified if everybody's doing it at the same time.
I had some ideas for a tool a while back that could import your posts first, help you sift through what your "Greatest Hits" were in terms of big life events or lots of conversation, and help you import those into another platform. The downside is, though, that you still wouldn't be able to reconstruct the threads for people who haven't moved over to the fediverse yet.
That's just because they haven't been taught about it yet. Once it catches on more (Twitter and Reddit refugees, Meta app) it'll become more widely understood and more people will start using it. Once you understand the point of the Fediverse, using it isn't a whole lot harder than any other social media.
I don't know you overestimate people, I think if the Fediverse will succeed its gotta be dumbed down a lot more for people and made seemless so it works without them having to think about the various instances as much.
They don't really HAVE to think about the various instances imo. They just need to join one, that's it. Following users/communities from other instances isn't hard to wrap your head around, you just follow them. badda-bing badda-boom. The @instance.whatever bit of their username barely matters. You just say "that's like a URL to find that user on a different instance than the one you chose". People arent as stupid as you might think, they just need someone patient enough to explain.
I mean yeah, that's me. I'm just a regular guy, but since reddit decided to screw up in the worst ways possible, I need an alternative. I don't fully understand the fediverse but I'm going to make an attempt to use kbin and see how it goes.
For most of the users currently online it's extremely difficult to understand the concept of federation and how everything works, so I doubt it'll ever be as prevalent as "the big social media platforms", but for technically-inclined users, it'll definitely have at least moderate success.
I believe that's the point: Coming from Reddit, I don't understand what Mastodon (yes, I thought it is something similar!), Fediverse, Lemmy.ml and feddit are, have in common or where the differences are.
And furthermore: Why should I care?
I think it will be hard to convince a significant number of people to come here and STAY.
I hope I'm wrong. I just created my first community :-)
IMHO these are fundamentally different concepts. Popular social media is made popular by pushing curated 'engaging' content, rather than organic content, to monetize gullible users. It has become an entertainment venue, giving their audience a steady stream of what they want them to see, even if by force. Popular "Social Media" has rapidly devolved into a real-life MST3K. Users feel betrayed that the sites no longer feel like the social experience/experiment they wanted.... but are users really wanting to leave, or just switch to voice outrage?
Alternatively, the fediverse doesn't appeal to those wanting force fed entertainment, or seeking viral fame amongst family/friends, and outraged users will complain it doesn't function like so-and-so site, or work 'their way'. It is more technical and takes more proactive actions to engage with others, which is a positive thing.
Users think they can switch from Coke to Pepsi, but the fediverse is more of a mixed drink with some extra bourbon.
Could it / should it replace popular social media? Probably not, unless more mindsets change over what a social media experience should be... but it can fill a growing gap as this happens (which will in-turn improve features & development).
I would say, if in theory a social media achieved a small community, informative and positive culture which avoided spreading misinformation or cultivating harmful stereotypes of those they disagree with via the mechanisms of that social media, that it should be more standardized and more widely accepted. Largely because that is just more healthy in general. Not that Lemmy will necessarily be that in practice in the long run.
I'm hoping it'll be more like craft beer and become it's own market that overlaps with more mainstream options but still has a solid base of users\customers that keep it separate.
Unlikely. When users left Digg for Reddit the internet was smaller and the users more technically minded. And even then it was essentially just creating a new account. You need an one stop solution for users to migrate and federation by definition isn't that. As a result discovery (and growth) is still hard even for Mastodon that's been around for a while and it's a relatively mature platform.
The various people who work on the fediverse are all doing it for fundamentally different goals, solving different problems, and building different things for different people. It just so happens that, more often than not, a lot of our stuff works together now thanks to the hard efforts put forward by people who cared about interoperability.
I personally believe that the fediverse will kill traditional social media platforms. Because if you can just communicate around a walled garden, what's the point or value in staying in one?
I think we still have a long way to go in terms of usability and design. Those things, along with marketing, remain pretty steep barriers to adoption by people who are unfamiliar with it. There are also a lot of capital-H Hard problems that need to be sorted out down the road, like better filtering and moderation tools, and more robust controls for privacy. I have a feeling we'll get there, but only through hard work and collaboration.
I guess a different way of understanding things is that, the fediverse might not kill the competition outright, but it has the potential to outlast them as something better. And hopefully someday, it'll be as ubiquitous and ordinary as email.
It's more closely related to the initial intentions of the internet than most other social platforms. Ideally it could get things going back in the right direction again iif nothing else!
since there isn't any strong way to collect data or advertise it will always be an underdog compared to big business.
that being said, the fediverse could outlast a few mainstream networks and build lasting strength with that. I'm an ideal setting it could become a defacto network over time.
can we get young people coming here though? that's how we get the tides to turn
@knighthawk0811
> since there isn't any strong way to collect data or advertise it will always be an underdog compared to big business
... unless and until democratic governments ban corporations from spying on the people using their platforms, as they bloody well ought to, if they have any respect for the human rights of the citizens. Or pass laws that force the Walled Gardens to federate with similar platforms, like the Digital Markets Act.
@knighthawk0811
> can we get young people coming here though
That's a very good question to ask a young person. OTTOMH though...
... anything they have to use at school, they're unlikely to use by choice at home or elsewhere. What would have got me to join the fediverse if it existed when I was a young person? Hearing that someone I respected had joined like Upper Hutt Posse, or Michael Franti, or RATM, or even David Bowie. Pop poets are the vanguard party of the young.
I for one am a young person, but my peers are too tiktok obsessed. While I use an VPN 24/7 I liek that the fediverse is not banned at school Still use VPN tho
Algorithm and peer pressure. I'm among one of the only damn kids in my school who never used that shit. Its a special event when I meet someone who isn't addicted to it
If you move you lose your history and relationships behind. There is no migration, same as Mastodon. On purpose so as not to disempower instance owners
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