i thought she just stole the powers of people she touched, and didn’t kill them instantly with death touch?
in any case, she can steal the powers of mutants, which is a pretty good bonus ability to have on deck at any given time. tactically, to ensure the survival of future mutants that might get killed/cured, it would be better if, instead of getting cured, rogue just wore fucking gloves. you know, like what she does already. sort of the reason you might want mutants in the first place is cause like, sure, you get a random kid that gets born, and oh no, that kid kills everyone with super extremely toxic nuclear radiation in this super edgy comic where wolverine has to kill him, instead of just like putting the kid in a zero-waste nuclear power plant or whatever. or like a suit. you get that, but occasionally you also get somebody like forge, who can construct fucking insane technology, occasionally you get someone like prof. x, who has omega cranium dome, and can use the internet with his brain.
oh, but then, forge’s technology is too dangerous, so we gotta cure him, and prof. x can read everyone’s mind, so we gotta cure him so he doesn’t see that i’m into freaky porn that will cause him to clutch his head and go “AUUUGHHHHH” and then faint, as is the fate of every psychic.
basically all that I’m saying is that this kind of mirrors exactly the same way that we look at neurodivergence or disability in real life. everyone’s like, oh, we need to cure the neurodivergence with insane medication, or gene therapy, and the disabled people should be walking around on crazy robot legs! but then the robot legs were too heavy, and the anchor points that were directly mounted to your bones were super uncomfortable, and since people’s body composition changes over time, the robot legs don’t fit anymore, so you gotta buy another specialty production 50,000 dollar pair since it’s not a mass production market, and, oop, since you’re only moving around with robot legs and using 5% of your body in your thighs to work out, now you’re fucked, instead of being jacked, like you would if you used a wheelchair. and oops, look like the robot legs have shit battery life.
and then realistically all of what people in wheelchairs wanted to be able to do was to like, use the bathroom effectively.
i’m not making the kind of blanket statement that, say, curing someone who’s got such mental illness that they’re nigh catatonic, is bad, they might thank you for that, right? but then i’d also say, you know, be careful at trying to “cure” everything, cause oftentimes the cure is some false solution, and oftentimes people really just needed you to have like an iota of empathy and understanding for their situation, so you could work out an actual solution for them, and what they need, and want. realistically you can “cure” a lot of things by just doing something really pretty simple and basically acknowledges the fact that some kind of people fucking exists at all. oh no! i have mental illness! maybe I should just be allowed to fucking exist, though, maybe i only have mental illness because we live in a society and i am the joker. bottom text.
Fun fact - in the comics Forge made a gun that strips away mutant powers, and the government tried to use in on Rogue (which, having absorbed Ms. Marvel, was much more of a threat than her version in the Fox movies) - but Storm, ignorant to the gun’s purpose, took the bullet for her. After that, lamenting the loss of her powers became her entire personality for a while. Comics being comics eventually she got them back - but I think that she is still a bit salty about this, and it shows in that scene.
We look at mutants and see cool powers, but mutants in the Marvel universe are first and foremost a hated minority. Storm wants to fight the very idea of the cure, because if the cure exists - mutants will be forced to take it. The poster boy of the cure in that movie was was Warren Worthington III, and he got one of the relatively good mutations (yes, it’s physically visible, but it’s not one of the grotesque ones) but his father still tried to force the cure on him.
It sucks for mutants like Rogue who really do want to get rid of their powers, but mutantkind as a whole does not have the luxury of allowing the cure to exist.
“Theres nothing to cure? Is that Right Ms. Amazing powers with no horrific disfigurement thats not a threat to anyone?” takes off glove “If I dont need a cure, then shake my hand. Go on. Do it. I’m perfect as I am, right?”
“Uh…I…”
“SHAKE MY GODDAMN HAND BEFORE I WRAP IT AROUND YOUR THROAT YOU STUCK UP ELITIST BITCH”
Right, that’s what I’m getting at. Storms message of accepting who you are and how you were born sounds great and heartwarming when applied to race or orientation. It completely falls apart in a world where trans people exist. It just seems really outdated.
I dunno, I think storm would be supportive of the trans community. I think storm was defending her own right to be a mutant with enough people telling her she’s a freak and people saying they should all be killed.
I bet prof x would provide some psychic help to alleviate the pain of being trapped in the wrong body and beast could provide a less invasive way to fully transition using some gene therapy from mystique cells.
That’s definitely what they were going for. X-men had other jokes clearly indicating the comparison between the LGBTQ movement and being a mutant. The comparison doesn’t work as well for kill everything she touches lady, though lol.
I think Storm is correct in the literal sense. Rogue doesn’t have the sniffles, her body is “healthy”, it’s all functioning correctly. The fact that Rogue kills people she touches isn’t a health problem, it’s a problem with what her species is. You don’t call a lion sick because it kills zebra. There’s no “cure” for it.
Can a program be created that would turn Rogue into a homo sapiens? Yes. But I think Storm is objecting to the language of calling that a cure.
Nah, there is nothing wrong with Rogue. She just lives in a world where her evolutionary trait is frowned upon by society. If she was allowed to embrace her true self and kill indiscriminately she would be much happier. Even more so than giving up her genetic advantage.
It might be lonely for a time but we all know she eventually runs into someone who can neutralize her power.
Edit: looking online Rogue also gains full control over her powers in some instances.
Gentle reminder there’s a kid who got the power to blow himself up. Once. And he used it. Her perspective on the evolutionary trait is positive because she got a good roll of the dice while those around her got significantly less lucky. She is able to restrain her power unlike instant death touch girl, she’s able to use it multiple times unlike Bailey Hoskins, and her big struggle is she can’t go murder psycho? Again I really think her perspective is positive because she’s got significantly more control and usability out of her mutation.
I believe there was either another mutant with the ability to, or they found a way to, detect mutant abilities. I saw a short video that recapped the comics so I unfortunately don’t know a lot of the details. The name of the comic is linked on the wiki though.
Once…well if it’s the same kid I remember reading about around the recent ‘Trial of Magneto’ then twice. He got resurrected as a zombie due to Wanda trying to resurrect the mutants that were died up on Genosha. She messed up big Zombie attack. He blew up again.
Couldn’t find anything that suggests he was resurrected or even made an appearance outside his specific comics but possibly! Really cruel fate for this kid though.
It’s the comics where horticulture appears and magik goes full demon. I definitely remember a guy who blows himself up completely as I only read genosha a couple months ago.
Ok but shouldn’t she just end this argument by grabbing Storm? Iirc, not only would she kill her or at least shut her up, she’d also take on her powers and get to be the weather goddess for awhile. Be nice to see what someone with her emotional damage did with that. Would it be “You get a tornado! You get a tornado! Everyone gets a tornado!” Or "I’m just gonna send the rain to the starving drought-stricken children in Africa and let the sun shine rainbows on the Pride parade, I wanna bring joy for once in my fucked-up life! "
Yeah, rogue is the true master of adaptation. Comic book rogue even gets to keep their powers indefinitely, if she absorbs long enough. She has the potential to become the most powerful being in the marvel universe.
but like she clearly doesn’t want to kill people, what you’re saying is effectively that people should be entirely determined by their genetics and have no say in the matter, which is… rather fucked up?
it gets extra terrible when we remember that a significant chunk of humanity is born with evolutionary traits specifically evolved to help hunter-gatherer tribes, i don’t think people with ADHD and autism want to be compared to someone who kills everyone she touches…
She doesn’t want to kill people because society has taught her that killing is wrong. There is no societal precedent for someone with her ability. If a shark was raised to believe it was a tuna it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a shark.
And I know for a fact that ADHD people don’t appreciate the fact they have to medicate to be valued in their society.
Edit: but can’t you just except that I am on magnetos side, professor x?
She doesn’t want to kill people because society has taught her that killing is wrong.
Yeah, something about perpetuating your own species seems like a logical reason to teach people that.
Also, most people instinctively do not want to kill. That’s why military training has to cram the idea of “you have to kill people” down their trainees’ throats, and reportedly many still don’t pull the trigger when they see they will actually end up killing someone.
Honestly, this makes me worry about you and what you’ve done or plan to do.
We’re talking about fictional characters. Rogues mutation has the potential to spur a new species of human. Her progeny will define a whole evolutionary line. Your simple mindedness makes me worried people like you vote.
Rogues only obligation is to preserve the traits she has been given for survival of her offspring.
Like I mentioned before there are instances where rogue has complete control. Also she could find a suitable mate that is powerful enough to withstand her power.
Edit: I’m glad I could introduce someone to the driving conflict in xmen. Your welcome.
This is a really good question. Does her power affect the fetus? Is she doomed to always have a miscarriage? Could you solve the abortion issue by figuring out when hew power activates?
Taxonomy works in retrospect. We don’t classify new species nor branches until they already exist. We can’t simply predict.
A species is defined as a group that can interbreed and produce viable, fertile offspring. Mules for instance aren’t a distinct species because they are largely infertile. This is why we classify in retrospect.
4.5. As a result it’s impossible to know if Rogue would even constitute a new species. She would need to be capable of having children who can have children with each other. And I don’t even want to get into how fucked up the implications of that are. It also means that if Rogue or her children could have viable offspring with ordinary humans, they cannot be different species.
Even if she was a whole new species, Rogue would probably not be an entirely separate Genus either. She would likely be Homo still. The split for her species wouldn’t go that high up in taxonomy.
An organism is not only obligated to preserve its specific traits. It’s obligated to preserve as many traits similar to its own as possible. This is why you’ll see family groups in nature work together. Uncles and aunts will nurture their nieces and nephews because a substantial portion of their own genetics lives on in their siblings’ progeny. They can still pass on some of their traits in that way.
6.5. This is why some people think gay people exist, from an evolutionary perspective. A tribe with 12 adults and 5 children is able to better provide for their collective kids than a tribe of 12 adults and 6 children. Some of the gay people’s DNA is still in their nieces and nephews.
Sometimes you don’t need to even share genetics with someone else. Completely unrelated cat moms will raise their litters together, because it raises their chance of survival overall.
This is all basic college biology. You should be able to find it fairly easily.
I would argue Rogue would does not benefit from society and remaining lowers her chance of survival because ordinary humans want to kill mutants. See magnetos origin story. Without Professor X’s intervention Rogue would have been killed or she would would have embraced her powers and fought for survival.
As for if she would be a new species, you don’t have to purposedully inbreed anyone. It would just be a natural part of population growth. It eventually becomes inevitable.
That’s the definition of a new species however. Until Rogue’s progeny can no longer have viable offspring with anyone except themselves, they aren’t a separate species, let alone genus. This is why dog breeds aren’t different species. They may be different, but they can still have children together that can go on to have other children.
I would also argue this is a fictional version of evolution where giant fantastical leaps in genetics are possible and you can’t really apply evolution theory as we currently understand it. I do accept my understanding is limited so I did change my OP but really some of this stuff may be decided if we get deeper into xmen lore.
As I get older, I come to realize that Magneto and Xavier needed each other. Both of their philosophies were required. Peaceful resistance must recognize when violence is needed to maintain peace and safe lives. Violent resistance must recognize it is the last tool, not the first, and that you can win many hearts and minds with peaceful methods. Peaceful resistance will otherwise die a quiet death as all are killed, and violent resistance will otherwise die a loud death as all are killed. The former inspires support by those who cannot believe the inhumanity of the opposition. The latter inspires support by survivors who launch guerilla attacks.
I read somewhere that Xavier was likened as MLK and Magneto as Malcom X.
Malcom was very problematic in many ways but he does make a lot of correct assements about the dynamics of oppression. Given Malcolm’s background mixed with his unabashed stubbornness I give him respect. He was wrong about a lot of things but he wasn’t afraid to stand up to anyone and have strong convictions.
Yes player names can’t have knight display correctly because it has “nig” in it. Even though there are several characters with knight in their name and items referencing knight in their descriptions. The censor is poor however, so “KNight” works if you don’t mind capitalization errors
They’re more meant to be an allegory for race, with the competing mutant organizations being the competing parts of the Civil Rights movement. Professor Xavier is MLK and Magneto is Malcolm X.
No. It isn’t. People read way too much into children’s comics. I guess when you know nothing about anything other than being gay, everything becomes about being gay.
No, Mutants were more than an allegory for gay and non-hetero people. They were more focused on other marginalized groups at the time. That included the aforementioned group, but bonehead worded it in such a way that it made it sound it was only for that group of people.
I may have accidentally implied that all mutants are just a stand-in for gay people, which the scene in question very much IS about gay people since no one talks like that about a disability. But at least I didn't just brush them off as just crying victim.
Add in heavy elements of anti-racisim and you have a more accurate picture.
Mutants were the marginalized, of every stripe.
After all, the early 60s we're the height of the civil rights movement. The human enemies in the comics were saying shit that was lifted whole cloth from what white supremacists were saying in the US.
Given that Mutants were written more for all marginalized groups and not JUST LGB individuals is the point here. But yeah, “anyone who doesn’t agree with me is literally hitler” is the appropriate lemmy-take on it.
Lemmy is definitely black and white but your comment didn’t exactly read that way. I don’t think you’re Hitler though, shit just gets lost easily in text.
Because back in the 60s-80s, the T hadn’t been adopted yet?
From about 1988, activists began to use the initialism LGBT in the United States. Not until the 1990s within the movement did gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people gain equal respect.
The transgenderism movement hasn’t really been accepted widely until rather recently, in fact. EVEN with “LGBT” becoming a thing in the early 90s. There was some discussion of “this being a thing since the beginning” – so I’m referencing that time period in relation to that part of the discussion.
There was some discussion of “this being a thing since the beginning” – so I’m referencing that time period in relation to that part of the discussion.
I took a survey recently that asked if I thought people were too sensitive about things other people say and I couldn’t bring myself to say disagree completely, because so many people are so sensitive about the idea of someone else being hurt by something
X-Men comics are. X-Men movies are coded to sexual minorities in particular. Like the way they come out to their parents. Including parents who are politicians who are vehemently anti-mutant.
Bi/pansexuals are often accused of skirting around the problems other LGBTQ+ folk have. They can live an outwardly heteronormative life and not have to deal with social stigma. I fit in this category. This critique is sometimes unfair, but not always.
Storm is taking up this position in OP. Rogue might be analogous to a very obviously trans person who gets a lot of looks in public, if not worse. You could see why someone in that position might want a shot that makes all their problems go away.
That’s because the whole point is responding to the issues of the day. The comics first came out in the 60s, and the main players are clear allegories for MLK, Malcom X, and the KKK. 2000s movies play off 2000s issues.
yeah this is basically true, but the X-Men also surpass their allegory, often, to real life problems, by both actually treating their mutants as though they have mutant powers, and as though they have problems that go along with, say, randomly being able to explode anything you touch, right. but they also surpass their allegory by just having real world problems just exist for their characters. prof. x used to be a football star or whatever before he got wheelchaired, he’s not innately wheelchaired as a result of his psychicness or mutantcy or whatever. cyclops isn’t even blind, he just has laser vision. if you look at the origins of the team in giant-size x-men, they’re all more, like, multiracial. you get the introduction of storm, thunderbird, colossus, nightcrawler, and none of those new characters are american, the two that would be white otherwise are basically weird monsters, and they all have to deal with shitty racism. X-Men, new and old, has kind of infamously just straight up had gay characters, and I think more recently you’ve had some trans characters too but idk much, maybe an area for improvement. there’s no reason for their mutant powers to serve as allegory when they already portray those issues in the comic.
the distinguishing factor of X-Men in my mind is that it’s a fantastical commentary on race, sexuality, gender, whatever, but it’s not using the mutant powers for allegories for that. the mutant powers are just the element that makes it fantastical, and they’re kind of an exploration of the concept of random mutant powers more in earnest, than just like sort of, as a vehicle for something else.
Nah. It’s more of a general allegory encompassing all forms of minority groups and social outcasts. Different writers and editors choose which ones to highlight. For example, while the original Lee, Kirby 60s run–and Chris Claremont during the 70s–might have emphasized disabilities, through numerous stories like Days of Future Past, God Loves Man Kills, and New Mutants #45, Claremont during the 80s prioritized race and sexual orientation.
I remember the one Wolverine issue where he had to kill some teen whose specific mutation caused everyone around him to die. And Wolverine had to kill him and cover it up so that mutants wouldn’t be hunted down.
It’s an allegory for the civil rights movement with prof. X as MLK Jr and Magneto as Malcolm X. In proper allegorical fashion this means it can be representative for any form of civil resistance by a repressed class, including the fight for gay rights.
It works even better if you expand to include neurodiverse individuals as a group, with gay etc being a subset.
There is a huge spread in abilities and disabilities. What all share is being different from normal, and the reaction of “normal” people to that.
Some have massive benefits, with relatively small downsides akin to storm (e.g. well adapted autism or ADHD). Others have a mix akin to beast etc. Others are completely screwed over, akin to Rogue.
In real life, I know people who would slap you in the face for suggesting a cure. I also know others who would bite your hand off, if one was offered.
as a person with autism and probably adhd, my take on it is that it would be real fucking nice to be able to take a pill that makes more neurotypical for a couple hours, which is sort of what adhd meds seem to do and a big reason why it annoys me that everyone glosses over my adhd symptoms.
like yeah there are benefits to having autism, but it’d also be pretty fucking sweet to not feel like i’m going to explode because people around me are being too loud
I definitely get that’s the point, but the analogy breaks down when applied to characters like Rogue. Like there may be something there about how you can feel guilty about who you are because it “hurts” other people, but there are real world ways to give those people support and love without needing to “cure” them. Rogue doesn’t have that option, there’s not a found family that can make her not kill people when she touches them. There’s something innately and indisputably dangerous about her, which is not a great feel to apply to any marginalized group.
Tell that to the gay kid in the 80s during the AIDS crysis when everyone was scared of gay people, who just wanted the thing that makes everyone hate them just go away.
But there’s a difference here. Yes there is a parallel to the AIDS epidemic here, but the difference is that the panic surrounding those with AIDS was unfounded and steeped in bigotry, while the fear of being killed by touching Rouge is very real.
Like, no it’s not a moral failing to have AIDS, but that doesn’t mean the incredible advancements we’ve made in HIV treatment are a bad thing.
To be clear, Rogue is still absolutely valid as a character who struggles with an innate affliction that is, for perceived or misguided reasons, considered dangerous. There’s definitely parallels to conversion therapy and the like. But the analogy to the persecution of marginalized groups is just broad enough to contain both those whose identity is the “disease” (Storm) and those whose identity is tied to but not synonymous with their affliction (Rogue). It’s the distinction that makes this particular line hit just a bit off the mark. Conversion therapy vs AZT, as it were.
Whether the threat is real or perceived, the end result is the exact same. Society blames a particular trait shared by a group of people even though a very small percentage of those people pose any sort of threat due to that trait. Gay people were literally killed because of that perceived threat. And often no one was punished.
You also have to remember the time when this movie was released. Gay people had only just started being accepted, and there was a concerted effort by certain religious groups to try to derail any legal recognition of gay people. Don't Ask, Don't Tell was still a very real thing in the military. The entire trilogy is an allegory for gay people. The original comics may have been about race, but these movies were for a different audience. It was a commentary on exactly what was happening during that time.
You can criticize the sloppy writing of the third movie, but don't dismiss the efforts by people trying to get a message across to the general population.
I disagree. There are definitely people who would be “you just need to control it, no need to change it”. Which is why Storm is portrayed like that. It’s a lack of empathy.
I suppose it depends on how the scene puts delivered. If it is portrayed as a lack of empathy or just understanding, then yes I absolutely agree it’s realistic. If it’s portrayed as an empowering moment, that’s where we run into issues.
From distant memory, it was the latter, but I’m trying to find clips that put it in context. Let me know if you find one.
I see that meme a lot in autism communities, and it seems to fit very well. Every time it’s posted, it gets controversial between people with low support needs claiming that there’s nothing wrong with us, and people with higher support needs, claiming that it’s not wrong to seek a cure.
There were inconsistencies with the pictures and he always skirted the question when that came up. If I remember right many people asked him to just post a video? And either he refused or he posted something that was really really really bad quality that didn’t make sense considering the quality of everything else he had?
Ooooh yeah! Honestly it’s been forever so I’m blanking on a lot I just remember reading a huge write-up of all the issues with it. I think it was on subredded drama?
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