Arch is cool and all but fixing all the issues every other time you update is a full time job. I can never rely on my system for shit. Sometimes there’s actually a wiki page for the issue but in my experience it’s usually bugs almost no one else has which means I’m on my own. If you’re smart enough for that cool but I’ve dedicated most of my life to only using Linux and I’m still nowhere close to being able to use Arch without spending too much time troubleshooting issues. I think I’d rather deal with Debian repositories being so out of date half my shit is broken because that way at least I only have to fix it once every year or two instead of every goddamn week.
I generally seem to have had a good experience with Linux Mint. I use the cinnamon version.
Even dist upgrades don’t seem to be too much trouble.
I used to main Gentoo but that was a lot of work. I still miss it though, but that was almost 20 years ago, when I was unemployed, and had more free time than money.
I run Windows 10 on my personal laptop and I look at these changes for the sake of change and I am seriously considering wiping it and not just use Linux in a VM.
Arch is not meant to be a daily driver if you’re expecting “shit just works” stability long term when you just blindly run updates. You have to understand what you’re updating and sometimes why.
It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.
If you want to use Arch, you need to invest in snapshots using rsync or dd. Given how it’s a rolling release, you should do this weekly. If something fucks up, grab all your logs and put them somewhere safe. Roll back and look at your logs to see what broke. Then apply updates as needed. You can ignore packages for quite a while. If you’re not smart enough to understand it now, you may in the future. It takes time and practice.
Debian based is only “out of date” feature wise because they do a package freeze. They ensure stability before release. Updates are largely security related.
To be fair if you set it up properly, you don’t install a ton of stuff from the aur, and you stick to a major desktop like kde or gnome it’s stable to the point of being boring.
I’ve recently switched to hyprland from kde just to have something to mess with or tweak when I feel like it. Sometimes they change the config file for hyprland and I have to fix it but I like it none the less. I used kde for a couple years with zero issues and only just switched desktops using the zx backdoor as an excuse to while my system.
This is coming from an individual that hasn’t had an opportunity to switch from an Nvidia card yet.
One does not simply “switch back”. Anyone that stops using Linux was never converted from M$ or A₽₱£€ in the first place, and either was briefly testing it and it didn’t work out for them, trying it under duress and it didn’t work out for them, or trying it to sound less obviously lying or decades out if date when talking it down. Real Linux users only convert others, or tell you it’s actually GNU/Linux, or make sure new users trying out Mint use Debian edition. Real Linux users would use a separate partition or computer for anything that absolutely requires windows that they are unable to part with, even though it can be a pain and windows will periodically try to replace your multi os friendly bootloader with it is own.
I am never going to install linux on my gaming pc. It is too much work if you are into multiplayer/live service games. Windows just works if you uninstall all the ms crap.
The worst web browser ever, period, is still embedded into the system to this day and the entire OS will collapse if you manage to delete. Just an example; without the bloat you literally wouldn’t have any OS left (except, ironically, some unix components).
That said, I agree with you, no OS is great compared with windows lol
I removed my edge browser without deleting webview2. If you use random internet scripts it will remove webview2 which is required by many apps and games. My current windows 11 install have no problems with edge uninstalled the proper way without removing webview2.
I somewhat get the stance some have against Windows. I myself aren’t to fond of Windows anymore and I’ll gladly doge it (and its company) at every chance I get.
HOWEVER, I understand that there’s software or even hardware that won’t and likely will never work on any other OS but Windows (even if it’s only through market dominance).
If ones use case is primarely for multi-player gaming then Windows (for most of these games) is the go to as for that aspect it offers the less painful way.
Could some of those games be made to run on Linux? Sure but it’s likely gonna be a pain all the way through (and will likely break with the next patch).
Some might answer with “to avoid those games then”, but realistically, many want to enjoy these titles, and they have every right to do so.
TLDR: Windows is good at certain tasks, Linux is good at certain tasks. Use the tool that that fits your use case (tasks) the best, but still look over to the other side every onece in a while.
Lol, putting the worst documented distro on the planet on the table is interesting. The majority of people new to linux would switch back to windows within minutes if they had to install and use nixOS.
In terms of stability and packages, it’s an amazing OS. Gone are the days of being afraid that of updates or system upgrades that might leave your system borked. Unless you’re experimenting with filesystems and boot parameters, it’s not straightforward to fuck things up.
On the flipside, by Linus is it difficult to get things working as a beginner. Good luck packaging new stuff, good luck creating new options, good luck cross-compiling, good luck configuring stuff with hardcoded config paths in /var/ or whatever, actually good luck understanding how to configure existing packages, good luck getting any kind of PR merged without the say-so of a chosen few, good luck changing anything in the community without getting past the gatekeepers, and have fun understanding why some random package is being installed and/or compiled when you switch to a new configuration.
Compared to a traditional distro, the packaging difficulty distribution is quite skewed with Nix though as packages that follow common conventions are quite a lot easier to package due to the abstractions Nixpkgs has built for said conventions while some packages are near impossible to package due to the unique constraints Nix (rightfully) enforces.
good luck creating new options
Creating options is really simple actually. Had I known you could do that earlier, I would have done so when I was starting out.
Creating good options APIs is an art to be mastered but you don’t need to do that to get something going.
good luck cross-compiling
Have you ever tried cross-compiling on a traditional distro? Cross-compiling using Nixpkgs is quite easy in comparison.
actually good luck understanding how to configure existing packages
Yeah, no way to do so other than to read the source.
It’s usually quite understandable without knowing the exact details though; just look at the function arguments.
Also beats having no option to configure packages at all. Good luck slightly modifying an Arch package. It has no abstractions for this whatsoever; you have to copy and edit the source. Oh and you need to keep it up to date yourself too.
Gentoo-like standardised flags would be great and are being worked on.
good luck getting any kind of PR merged without the say-so of a chosen few
Hi, one of the “chosen few” here: That’s a security feature.
Not a particularly good one, mind you, but a security feature nonetheless.
There’s also now a merge bot now running in the wild allowing maintainers of packages to merge automatic updates on their maintained packages though which alleviates this a bit.
have fun understanding why some random package is being installed and/or compiled when you switch to a new configuration.
It can be mysterious sometimes but once you know the tools, you can directly introspect the dependency tree that is core to the concept of Nix and figure out exactly what’s happening.
I’m not aware of the existence of any such tools in traditional distros though. What do you do on i.e. Arch if your hourly shot of -Syu goes off and fetches some package you’ve never seen before due to an update to some other package? Manually look at PKGBUILDs?
This is true, I wanted to play a game and it looked broken in Linux. When I went back to Windows I discovered that it was a problem with the game. Then I went back to Linux and it ran better than it did in Windows.
Every child should be introduced to linux. Will help them understand better they don’t need to be treated as products and certainly make them more computer literate, and hopefully more security conscious.
Was introduced as a teen. Recently even looked back at my book from the times and it had a whole goddamn chapter with linux propaganda.
Hated it. Felt like high maintenance windows. No reason to even get near. Also, hated it doubly because nobody asked.
Best way would be to switch school computers to linux. That way there’s no active part - it’s here, you have to use it anyway, deal with it. Then you can taste it neutrally, and it becomes just a quirk. Quirk some may like.
It doesn’t have to, but for most users on the level of teens/kids it is. You wanna do something in windows? Done. Just done. No problems whatsoever, most devs bend over backwards for compatibility. Meanwhile finding shit for linux is pain. Most things you heard of are not even there. You have to go through weird apps just to run things you’re used to, and meanwhile OS asks weird questions like which graphic driver to install,
Linux changed a whole lot from the time I was introduced to it, and it became reaaaaally close to being as easy to use as windows. Hell, I even was considering switching to Mint some time ago ( Then bricked my boot. Thrice. And it’s not fault of Linux. I think. ). I like how it looks and feels, and with proton and stuff it’s best time to do so but it still isn’t on the same level of being non-problematic as windows.
Edit: Cannot talk about Win 11. Touched it once. If I need to upgrade, fuck that, going linux. Not worth it. At all.
Not really most detect the graphics card automatically, unless you are on Nvidia in which case you probably built the thing anyway or are a PC gamer which would know that anyway.
Windows isn’t as easy to use and tends to break if given to the computer illiterate from viruses, not doing updates, not rebooting, and so on. I’ve dealt with these kinds of people, they are better off with Linux Mint, ChromeOS, or similar as it doesn’t have these issues. If you are talking about mac then yeah it’s easier, you have an argument there. I would point out as well that most of the easy to use devices run Linux, like Android and ChromeOS devices.
Windows 11 is the new default, so that’s what we are comparing to here.
Dual boots on a single drive and EFI partition are expected to break at this point. This is because Microsoft like to overwrite the Linux boot loader. You should use a separate drive or at least a different EFI partition. REFIND can be helpful too. Dual boots have always been an advanced use case though.
Most people who don’t know their stuff uses nvidia. Happily slowly changing, but nvidia is everywhere, at least where I live. And people who don’t know stuff still hold onto “green good, red hot and bad”.
How do you break Windows except by downloading malware? It literally hides, or rather masquarades it’s settings from you and makes it hard to do anything bad to it. My grandpa uses Windows - I thought about introducing him to linux to breathe second life into his PC but…I doubt he would be able to do much with it. I cede point towards Android.
How is Win 11 new default? I may be out of the loop, but is it now majorly used? If so, I cede all because the only time I tried to use it, goddamn first-time registration died on me. Like, fully. Unfixable. What a mess.
And yeah, again, the boot bricking isn’t on linux it’s just me being an idiot. Also I love how fast you picked up how I broke the boot.
Most people who don’t know their stuff uses nvidia. Happily slowly changing, but nvidia is everywhere, at least where I live. And people who don’t know stuff still hold onto “green good, red hot and bad”.
Every pre-built machine I have seen using Nvidia has it written on the front. Including the laptop I am using now. It works fine on Linux btw, provided you grab the right ISO.
Windows 11 installs itself automatically on newer machines as it did on my parents laptop, nags you if you refuse. Same way Windows 10 did when it came out. It comes with pretty much every new machine too. That’s what I mean by it’s the default. Windows 10 support also ends next year. You are severely out of the loop if you haven’t noticed, or you have an unsupported machine.
As for Windows breaking that’s what eventually made me switch to Linux again, Windows 11 taskbar decided to stop working on two different machines.
On Linux you need root permission to do much damage besides deleting files. You can create a non-root account for someone, or just tell them not do anything that prompts them for a password. There are few places where you can break something from a GUI in Linux, and those are things like disk managers that are equally dangerous on Windows. On Windows you can go to device manager and straight up disable devices. I’ve seen someone do that with their WiFi card. If it’s still an issue tell them to use Chrome OS or another immutable Linux. On those systems the OS partition is read only with snapshots in place. Those are almost impossible to fuck up short of reformatting your PC.
Check on EducaandOS. It’s my region’s school distro. It was absolute crap around 15 years ago, when they launched (names Guadalinex Edu), but it was preinstalled in school laptops so we learned to use it.
Right now it’s pretty decent and simple enough to just throw it into a kid’s computer, but sadly nobody gives a fuck about it. It would be so cool if more institutions tried to pull projects like this
Something like Linux Mint is very easy to use and doesn’t require much maintenance. You don’t need to reformat every year or two either when Windows inevitably shits itself.
Yes you can! What do you think a Chromebook is or an Android tablet. Modern Linux is quite easy to use, in some areas easier than modern Windows. This is especially true if you have the kind of children who get viruses all the time.
I obviously meant normal linux distros when I referred to linux. Not chromebooks or android.
Also, using those is in no way the same as learning linux. In a chrome book you’ll just be using a browser. In a phone, all the apps are locked down and you have no access to cli.
I never said the objective was to learn Linux. The objective is to use it.
You can get terminal access on a smartphone. I can give you a screenshot or two if you like. You can also run Linux apps on ChromeOS now. It leverages containers from my understanding, a technology baked into the modern Linux kernel.
No it’s not pedantic you are using a true scotsman fallacy. That being said I don’t think using Linux Mint is any harder than using and maintaining Windows especially if you don’t have existing knowledge of either. macOS is easier to use than either Linux Mint or Windows.
I never said the objective was to learn Linux. The objective is to use it.
Well you were replying to a comment of mine where the topic was teaching children linux.
You can get terminal access on a smartphone.
A child will never bother doing that.
You can also run Linux apps on ChromeOS now. It leverages containers from my understanding, a technology baked into the modern Linux kernel.
Yeah, I never said it couldn’t.
No it’s not pedantic you are using a true scotsman fallacy.
It’s not a true scotsman fallacy when neither chromeos nor android actively & openly advertise themselves as “Linux”. Yes, they are linux and that has been acknowledged, but not advertised.
Is your bar seriously advertising? The mental gymnastics going on here is crazy. Yes it’s a true scotsman fallacy. It doesn’t matter if someone born in Scotland calls themselves Scottish or not, legally speaking they are still Scottish. That’s how that works.
A child might not bother with the terminal on Linux Mint either. Does that mean Linux Mint isn’t a real Linux now?
You also severely underestimate what children are capable of. I installed my first Linux distro, and taught myself HTML and CSS while still in primary school. I don’t think you have any idea what children can do. I could probably outclass most adults with technology when I was 16 or so.
You also severely underestimate what children are capable of. I installed my first Linux distro, and taught myself HTML and CSS while still in primary school. I don’t think you have any idea what children can do. I could probably outclass most adults with technology when I was 16 or so.
Um, I started using linux on my own when I was 9-10ish years old. I know perfectly what a child is capable of. But an average child will not do that.
NixOS is semi-immutable but not really designed to be user friendly. I think we are more talking about Universal Blue, Fedora SilberBlur, OpenSUSE microOS, VanillaOS and so on.
Tbh I’m pretty new to nixos, but I’m starting to believe if we had that the exact same config (at least without flakes, I’m still having trouble undertanding them) but with a slightly abstracted UI, it would be one of the most user-friendly distros out there.
Like just imagine being able to click “Add program”, write the name of a program, having all the options appear below as dropdown menus or on/off switches, then click big blue button “Apply” to rebuild.
As it says on the website, this is still in development and not actually ready for use by mere mortals quite yet. It hopefully will be at some point though as that is its explicit goal.
Apart from the game mode update notes being hard coded to show steamos updates, bazzite is a drop in replacement that doesn’t get rid of your non flatpak packages each update. It also bundles or has easy installation options for all the recommended third party software everyone uses with the deck.
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