I don’t think you understand what class warfare is.
The fact that it’s co-opted by rich people as trying to convince you that environmental disasters they cause is your problem doesn’t change any points made by actual vegans, or the fact that it’s far far cheaper. Even with all the subsidies given out, a pound of black beans/lentils has more calories/protein than a pound of beef, and will cost 1/5 the price. Sure if I want to splurge and buy a premade veggie burger it’s more expensive, but generally it’s just way more affordable.
I think you’re ignoring the general capacity for vegans to maintain nutritionally complete diets without supplements.
And last time I checked, the rich don’t concern themselves with the cost of nutrition. You’re so deep in the class warfare you can’t even see the front lines.
B12 is the only thing, and we can buy food that reinforced with it so no big deal. Many cereals have it added, and this can not be overstated, it’s the only thing that is problematic for vegans naturally. I’m not even a vegan, but B12 is added to all sorts of foods these days.
Also if that’s the case, then eating meat is class warfare. While people are starving, we are growing food to feed to live stock, to get a food people think tastes better. For every 1000 calories of food fed to cattle, you’ll get less than 100 calories of meat. There is not enough land on the planet for every person to eat meat the way folks in the US do.
globalagriculture.org/…/meat-and-animal-feed.html…. "Nearly 60% of the world’s agricultural land is used for beef production, yet beef accounts for less than 2% of the calories that are consumed throughout the world. "
That 60% is counting all the corn and soy agriculture that is fed straight to beef. The world is not big enough for humans to eat as much as meat as people do. As a delicacy? Sure. But eating it every day? Multiple meals? Part of the world will always starve if we do. There is nothing in meat that we can’t get in other ways, not a single thing. So in all honesty if we want a stable world, we will need to figure out our addiction to meat.
Also, choline. Also, numerous micronutrients. Also, nutrient density and bioavailability. Also, non-arable grazing land makes up a large part of that 60% (see Australia). Also, locally sustainable nutrient complete. Also, not subject to needing supplementation from foods only available due to international commerce. Also, where do you think they grow the crops for extracting nutrients for supplements? Also, meat is the battery mass storage of the food world, you can charge it up, it’s portable, easy to keep, won’t spoil until harvested.
But go on, tell me again how the poor have access to nutrition and that it’s not class warfare. Starvation must suck on a full stomach.
Literally every single thing you said is just factually wrong.
Choline is bountiful and not a concern www.pcrm.org/news/…/clearing-choline-confusion. “Micronutrients” I’d love to know which ones. B12 also is in some vegetables, but vegetarians/vegans like to take the supplements just because it’s the only one they “might” not get enough of.
Most of that 60% is used for growing corn and soy used to feed live stock, because letting them graze is inefficient. The vast majority of animals butchered for meat are from factory farms, which are powered by corn and soy. Which could have just been human grown soy and sweetcorn, but instead it makes more money to grow cattle grade. sentienceinstitute.org/us-factory-farming-estimat…
Also they don’t just keep fully grown beef cattle sitting around my friend. They slaughter them on a tight schedule to maximize profit. They don’t function as batteries, they are treated as crops in factories where they are born and die on an optimal schedule. Keeping around a full grown cow marked for beef is a GIANT waste of money, because it needs food, water, and housing despite not going to grow much bigger.
And if meat is the food storage of the world how is it a measly 2% of calories consumed? It feeds next to no one. If it vanished, people would moan and grown, but basically no one would go hungry because it feeds just SO few people on the grand scheme of thing. In fact, if all cows vanished, we’d have vastly more food as the vast amounts of corn, grain, and soy that were going to be fed to cows at a 10:1 return would be sold to people, and instead of growing feed corn the next harvest would be food humans actually like.
I just can not stress enough that they eat 20X as many calories, most of which was grown in fields that could have been from humans, as they provide when eaten. The idea that they are grazing, just simply isn’t true. Letting them graze is an inefficient use of land. cbey.yale.edu/our-stories/disrupting-meat
You’re right, it is class warfare, rich countries should stop eating meat and instead focus fields on crops that are 20X more efficient until everyone has more food than they can possibly eat. www.arktide.org/how-much-food-can-we-grow/#:~:tex….
I’d be down for pescatarians though if we actually got around to taking care of the oceans and doing sustainable farming.
If you can’t provide sources in a response I will just have to ignore as a troll though. Because every point you made was just… factually incorrect. I’m hoping you just heard those things somewhere else and repeated them without checking and didn’t make them up to be a bother.
Choline is bountiful and not a concern “Micronutrients” I’d love to know which ones
It’s been common knowledge for decades that maintaining a nutritionally balanced vegan or vegetarian diet is not as simple as just eliminating meat as doing so causes a severe lack of several key nutrients and vitamins. The main offenders are vitamin B12, Omega 3, vitamin D, Zinc, and Choline. Some of these can be accounted for by increasing variety in the diet but others require supplements for a multitude of reasons, either recommended daily consumption cannot be met due to self imposed dietary restrictions, a lack of nutritionally rich sources, or simply how much food you can eat.
Nutritional deficiencies caused by incorrectly managed vegan diets are why doctors in Italy and Belgium are pushing for it to become illegal to feed children vegan diets, because the number of malnourished and dead children of vegan parents are rising in those nations.
Choline is a nutrient that was identified in the 1800’s but wasn’t known as essential to human development until the late 90’s, it’s found primarily in animal protein and severely impacts brain development in young children and has ongoing effects on mental capability and brain function during adulthood and deficiencies have been linked to multiple memory related diseases. According to nutritional data from the US National Institute of Health on Choline density in foods a vegan would have to consume two and a half cups of soybeans every day to meet minimum RDI for an adult as opposed to 300g of animal protein. The next nearest vegan source of choline is chickpeas which have 50% lower Choline density than soybeans (5 cups a day to meet RDI!)
And if meat is the food storage of the world how is it a measly 2% of calories consumed?
Source? Are those numbers including livestock consumption of non-meat products? Pet consumption of meat products? You bitch about not sourcing information when none were requested then drop that bullshit with no source?
I just can not stress enough that they eat 20X as many calories that could have been from humans.
Whole soy beans make up less than 6% of an American production cow’s diet, they can’t handle more, the rest is made up from industrial food waste such as soybean meal from soymilk production, beet pulp from sugar production, cotton seeds from clothes production, brewers grains from alcohol production, citrus pulp from fruit production, corn gluten from corn syrup production, candy and bakery waste. Numbers from non waste food consumption in cows is as low as 2-3%.
Not to mention you complain that it’s only available due to international commerce… yet many countries import meat as well
Which has higher caloric density and thus is more environmentally sustainable than transporting the same nutritional value in produce. It’s like you want to burn more fossil fuels in the shipping industry than necessary.
You’re right, it is class warfare, rich countries should stop eating meat and instead focus fields on crops that are 20X more efficient until everyone has more food than they can possibly eat.
Crop management, pesticides, and harvesting kill far more animals of varying species for the same equivalent nutritional value of a single head of cattle. Animals are also often raised on land that can’t be used for crops turning useless land into sustainable food resources, here in Australia over 70% of all our cattle are grass fed on non-arable land that can’t be used for farming crops and that soil health requires both crop rotation and animal biodiversity otherwise you’re not going to be able to grow vegetables there for long. The only reason a healthy nutritionally balanced vegan or vegetarian diet is even remotely possible is due to globalised trade and access to internationally produced and shipped vegetables. To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally.
Here’s a “fun” fact, first world demand for fruit and grain variety has out priced primary sources of food for local populations in third world countries including things like lentils, quinoa, and avocados.
If you can’t provide sources in a response I will just have to ignore as a troll though. Because every point you made was just… factually incorrect. I’m hoping you just heard those things somewhere else and repeated them without checking and didn’t make them up to be a bother.
If self-awareness was a disease, you’d be the healthiest person alive.
Not arguing with you, but I wanted to contribute by saying that most people, at least in the US, are also deficient in magnesium, zinc, and vitamin D. For all this effort carnivores are putting into to convince others that their diets are sufficient, often times those making those claims haven’t looked inward to see what they themselves are lacking. Perhaps it’s a complex issue, dunno
I actually ran into someone with big conspiracy energy at a food expo the other day, and he like started ranting about how the government has proven that it’s more interested in promoting what food pays the most in lobbying over actually caring about our health and it’s like… bro you are channeling some major conspiracy theory vibes but I can’t at all argue with your point. Between the food pyramid being drawn up by farmer lobbyists, corn syrup being put into everything despite it poisoning the lower class, and corps only getting a slap on the wrist when they make false food claims… it’s pretty obvious the government isn’t super concerned with our actual well being with our diets and we should all make sure to look inward.
It’s funny you mention this, because a few days ago I went to my local market to grab milk, and the regular milk was more expensive that the plant-based milk…never thought I’d see this day in the US!
My favorite is that a a celiac, all the gluten free stuff is 20% more expensive. Because you know, rice and tapioca are such expensive, exotic ingredients
Absolutely fucked up that your taxes go to supporting animal abuse whether you like it or not. Although, arguably worse is how many people don't even give the animals' suffering a second thought and just take the selfish path. Even fucking stupider is that chicken can be bought at the same price as tofu per kg. Like what the shit? Stop subsidising it. It's environmentally destructive and incredibly immoral.
I’ve always thought that vegan activists would be a lot more successful if they could end these meat subsidies, instead of harassing the public. If the price of meat triples no one is going to be eating meat regardless of their politics.
Yeah but good luck getting anything passed when the GOP and all of the animal agriculture lobbying industry will be screaming from the rooftops about how everyone’s favorite foods will be more expensive.
Forcing people to do something is easier than making them change wilfully. But people still should have the moral integrity to make the right choice regardless. Plus, people are so propagandised and indoctrinated by the industry from politicians and other bullshit that it would be an incredibly hard battle to fight.
Change zoning laws so I can raise my own in my backyard other than just chickens. I have no problem raising and slaughtering my food. No need for factory farms.
Since we can’t modify suburbia to accommodate that many cattle let alone the additional waste, how about we make specially designated places where we can send all our cows to live.
And since everyone travelling back and forth to look after their cattle would be highly impractical how about we designate a handful of individuals to care for all of the cattle so everyone else can worry about their other jobs.
And since it’s difficult for a single family to store and consume a whole cow, how about we designate a group of people to slaughter and process them into more manageable pieces.
And since everyone going to one place to get their meat and somewhere else to get the rest of their produce, how about we just sell them in one place together.
It’s almost like we know how this works out and should just improve the regulations around caring for our food while it’s alive.
Really? That’s the angle you’re going for? Lmao you’re offended by the word “veggies”, a word nearly universally used by nearly every English speaker? Uh oh, looks like your fragile masculinity is showing
If you knead bread by hand, it’ll have some human DNA in it from e.g your skin cells. It’s almost impossible to cook or process food while preventing it from getting literally any human cells into it, because humans are shedding cells and DNA literally all the time. You can wear gloves, hairnets, and frequently mop up, but eliminating the problem entirely is hard.
Both a vegetarian burger and a beef burger are probably going to have more human DNA in it than either a steak or a pot of black beans would.
We need to fully remove subsidies on corn… Hemp is a full replacement that offers far more uses… AND it makes great fabrics to further reduce the use of polyester
If you grow corn with subsidy and then sell that corn as livestock feed to cows, then you’ve indirectly further subsidized beef.
Though… this viewpoint is partly misleading people. Corn stalks and pith which humans can’t eat and need ruminant animals to process is what gets fed to them. We don’t always feed corn kernels to cows en masse, though many farms do. If they can find a buyer for the kernel for other consumption (human, fructose syrup, etc), they will sell it that way as it is more profitable. So even if it wasn’t subsidized and we only produce high priced corn for humans, we’d still feed the stalks and pith to cows.
Correct, but the vast majority of corn subsidies are to grow corn not meant for humans to eat. They are to grow animal feed, or ethanol.
So the first category I count as subsidizing the meat industry, since it exists purely to make raising live stock cheaper. The second category doesn’t really impact food.
I’d agree that it’s not. What about honey makes you feel like you need it or otherwise that it is somehow different than eating other animal products? If you use it just because you like it, you could argue the same for any other animal product. I’m primarily concerned with their lack of consent, in some cases the clipping of queen bee wings & confinement to a fixed space, & resource theft. There’s also the concerns of native bee populations being unable to compete with honey bees.
Reminder that farmers can spend something like a dollar per cow per year to allow their cattle to roam through public lands to cause erosion, shit in streams, spread giardia, and give farmers reasons to kill coyotes and wolves.
The solution to bovine methane emissions is to install a cowalitic converter inside their mufflers. Just like we do with quad udder milk exhaust collectors.
On a serious note i read a while back that they are looking into a type of gut bacteria to give to cows which will significantly reduce the methane produced by the cows digestive system.
They surpsingly release most methane through burping, not farting. Even more surprising is that they burp so much methane that it is measurable from space
A 1,200 lb lactating beef animal needs around 3% of it’s body mass every day. So around 35lbs of dry matter forage per day. Works out to around 6.4 tons DM/year.
Under irrigation, In areas without freezing temps, 25tons DM/acre is possible (not easy) or 4 cows. In areas with freezing temps 12-15 tons DM/acre can be accomplished or 2 cows (1 cow if the growing season is short)
10-15" rainfall zone produces around 600lbs DM/acre of which around 50% is available (timing issue) this is around 0.15 tons DM/acre. 6.4 tons DM for one cow is around 43 acres.
In a 5-10" rainfall zone it reduces to under 200lbs DM/acre total. Or 0.05 tons DM/acre or around 128 acres per cow. With that much walking their energy needs increase by as much as 50%. Or around 200 acres/cow.
Guess who grew up on a ranch with BLM grazing ground :-) My grandfather decided going bankrupt was a better than listening to a younger more hotheaded me.
Cool cool cool, guess who grew up in Texas around 100 ranches? You aren’t accounting for how many times / much hay can be harvested from an acre of land, especially when you are talking about bahaia. While it may cost you a little more, to transport it to northern states its not 100 acres per cow. If your grandfather was a rancher, he definitely isn’t taking his cues from one granddaughter, especially if that’s how he raised your parent. We are a omnivores. We can get everything we need from both plant and animals, but as far as full chain amino acids- proteins, it is far more efficient from animals. The sad thing is we import a lot of meat, oddly enough from countries that don’t have near the land mass, and more people per acre than we have here and less regulation on how said how the meat was raised, so tell me if it take 100 acres of land to raise 1 head of cattle is possible?
Hey mathematician, there are nearly 40 million cows in the US between beef and dairy, times that by 100 hundred, and that means we would need 4 billion acres to sustain them. There is only 2.4 in all of America. You dolt.
Lol. A swing and a miss. Not even close to what I said. Try again. Since your from, Texas perhaps your should see a Dr about concussive brain trauma.
Here’s a hint. Divide 40million by 2 cows per acre and you get 20 million. That’s about how many acres we need to use to feed every cow in the U.S under irrigated annual crops production. Instead we use around 800 million acres (grassland plus forest).
So 97.5% of the land are we are using to graze cows, we don’t need to use. We do it because the government subsidizes archaic agricultural practices and makes it affordable.
In some places, sure. But not everywhere they are. And you could/should reintroduce bison where they can go instead of using cattle. And the government should get more than the pittance they get per head.
Most retail nut milk is actually mixed with a variety of gums and other texture enhancers.
Fresh, homemade oat milk is actually really easy to make by that process, but store-bought oat milk needs to have consistent flavor and texture/mouth-feel. So there is a bit more that goes into it.
This is also true of other non-dairy milks. That’s why I only use Trader Joe’s or Westsoy shelf-stable soy milk for making yogurt. No gums.
These are industry standard additives, that are trivial to develop recipes for. The research involved is minimal, and wouldn’t represent a significant portion of the business.
You’re the only one talking about niche/specialty products though. Not denying that those products require extensive research, but I doubt that those products alone are responsible for the considerable markup on the typical alternative milk products, which truly are closer to “oats blended in water”, and probably make up a majority of sales.
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