Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign

The findings by a Palestinian pollster signal more difficulties ahead for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel’s stated goal of ending Hamas’ military and governing capabilities.

Washington has called for the West Bank-based Palestinian Authority, currently led by Abbas, to eventually assume control of Gaza and run both territories as a precursor to statehood. U.S. officials have said the PA must be revitalized, without letting on whether this would mean leadership changes.

The PA administers pockets of the Israeli-occupied West Bank and has governed Gaza until a takeover by Hamas militants in 2007. The Palestinians have not held elections since 2006 when Hamas won a parliamentary majority.

TimLovesTech,
@TimLovesTech@badatbeing.social avatar

If Israel actually wanted to rid the area of Hamas, I think humanitarian aid and taking care of the people might have been more persuasive than bombing their families out of existence.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Israel is playing on easy fucking mode here, and they're choosing not to take advantage of it. High-density areas are hell to fight through in a counter-insurgency scenario, but they're ideal for the whole 'winning hearts and minds' thing that has been core to counter-insurgency operations since the British in the fucking 1950s.

Israel chooses not to take advantage. Because they want the insurgency.

Habahnow,

I’m not familiar, could you explain why High density areas are ideal for “winning hearts and minds”?

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Basically one of the core issues with a competent government trying to 'win hearts and minds' is reaching people. Rural and isolated areas are the absolute hardest to deal with, because it's hard to secure the area, hard to reliably communicate, and hard to construct infrastructure in the area. Without those three tools - security, propaganda, and material improvement of conditions - securing hearts and minds is a very difficult task. Infrastructure is more difficult to construct in isolated areas, but essentially infrastructure in all cases benefits from economies of scale - it's much cheaper to build one major project for 100,000 people than 100 small projects for 1,000 people each, or worse, 1000 small projects for 100 people each.

You see this in the (successful) attempts of the British in Malaysia and the (unsuccessful) attempts of the Americans in Vietnam - the 'strategic hamlet' program sought to centralize populations so that they could be secured, means of communication could be supplied, and then the population could be won over with material improvements to their lives. You also see this to a lesser degree in Iraq and Afghanistan - Coalition forces had their strongest support in cities which could be secured and improved at a reasonable cost of investment (and amongst areas that would suffer from sectarian conflict if the national government fell, such as the Kurds and Tajiks).

Habahnow,

Thanks for expanding on you what you mentioned

masquenox,

but they’re ideal for the whole ‘winning hearts and minds’ thing that has been core to counter-insurgency operations

Lol!

Yeah… no. “Hearts and minds” shitfuckery is propaganda for your own side, Clyde. That is all it has ever been.

The keys to winning at colonialist warfare - oops, I mean t to say “counter-insurgency” - is still the same as it has ever been… destroy the means of existence of the population the resistance exists within. Ie, what the Brits did in South Africa and Malaya (and others), what the US did in the continental US and what the US tried (and failed) to do in Vietnam.

Stop being naive.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Oh, the weirdo who keeps calling me Clyde is back.

You have fun ignoring the actual strategies used in counter-insurgency warfare in exchange for your weird, pseudo-religious view of world politics and The Great Satan.

masquenox,

actual strategies

You desperately wanting to cling onto GI Joe fairy tales does not make “hearts and minds” any less of a propaganda strategy purely intended to fool people like you, Clyde. I guess the people who came up with it knew their audience well enough, eh?

But hey… maybe I’m wrong. And in that case it should be very easy for you to find evidence of a colonialist war where this “hearts and minds” malarkey even influenced the final outcome of colonialist warfare.

Shouldn’t be too difficult for you, should it?

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Sorry Bob, I just don't care enough to argue with reactionary scumbags like you. Have fun playing with yourself, though!

masquenox,

reactionary scumbags

I’m not the one swallowing colonialist propaganda, Clyde - you are.

So that’s a no on the whole “provide-a-shred-of-evidence-for-your-claim” thing?

No surprises there.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Sorry Bob, I just don't care enough to argue with reactionary scumbags like you. Have fun playing with yourself, though!

masquenox,

reactionary scumbags

I’m still not the one swallowing colonialist propaganda, Clyde - you are.

So that’s satill a no on the whole “provide-a-shred-of-evidence-for-your-claim” thing?

Still no surprises there.

rosymind,

Agreed. At the very least they could have moved the women and children to safety.

Note: I have nothing against men, and I’m not calling the women weak. I’d say ALL civilians to be inclusive, but I think they could argue that Hamas militants were hiding amongst them (and seperating kids from all their family isn’t… ideal)

piecat,

Implying women are family and fathers are not

Sacha,

Of course, fathers are just breadwinner - that’s their only value and purpose. They don’t “love” their families. Their lives are meaningless and they are violent terrorists.

/s

DoomBot5,

That’s a great plan once the hostages have been released.

DarkGamer, (edited )
DarkGamer avatar

Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities.

This is what the Palestinian public supports [NSFL, Death]

blahsay,

Hamas had wide support before Oct 7, wide support for the attack, and now wide support under invasion to return the hostages and dismantle Hamas.

Tldr: Hamas was and is supported by the Palestinians.

P.s. I’m kinda curious how they conducted a real survey

AnneBonny,

I think this is the poll in question:

www.pcpsr.org/en/node/961

pdf warning:

pcpsr.org/…/Poll 90 English press release 13 Dec …

AbouBenAdhem,

And Bush saw a huge surge of support after 9/11, even though he was widely unpopular leading up to it and nothing about it objectively reflected well on him. It’s a knee-jerk reaction to being attacked by an outside force.

masquenox,

Or it may have something to do with the fact that Hamas have actually proven willing to actually do something about the genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state threatening them with extinction - unlike the Israeli puppets that run the Palestinian Authority.

Tedesche, (edited )

Yeah, so Israel’s done some really fucked up shit, clearly, but when I see polls like this that indicate significant Palestinian support for Hamas, my sympathy for them dips substantially. If you’re going to back a terrorist group, I don’t much care if you get bombed along with them.

BolexForSoup,
BolexForSoup avatar

If you’re going to back a terrorist group, I don’t much care if you get bombed along with them.

They’re still human beings and they didn’t shoot anyone. Should every American be bombed for the war crimes of their government?

Jfc some of these comments are terrifying. Y’all are practically foaming at the mouth with these vile takes.

sadreality,

The goal has always been ethnic cleansing of the region either via murder or explosions, which one is either.

donuts,
donuts avatar

You mean Hamas' goal, right?

sadreality,

no

donuts,
donuts avatar

The Preamble to the 1988 Charter stated: ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″.

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'

sadreality,

BuT LIkE CheCk TiS LInK MaTE, C Me rIrghT

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

Are you having a stroke or are you always like this?

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Hamas is the only group that fights for the Palestinians. Supporting America or the PLO only gets them killed. They don’t give a shit about your support since you’re killing them.

Thinking you’re going to make someone turn against a group by killing their wife and kids and then saying “See, THEY are the bad guys!” is some next level stupid"

sadreality,

Said some clown from comfort of his US or EU home

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Fuck, man, the solution to mutual hate isn't "Keep shooting until there isn't anyone left."

donuts, (edited )
donuts avatar

What if there is no solution to mutual hate, which is why this conflict has been going on for decades?

Edit: to be clear I'm not advocating for genocide here, I'm saying that there probably is no simple solution to peace in the middle east.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

"What if we HAVE to do genocide, guys, there's no other option"

There are longer and fiercer conflicts than this that have been resolved without genocide. You don't get an excuse to get your genocide boner up.

donuts,
donuts avatar

I can see how you thought that's what I was saying, but it's not what I meant.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Ah, my apologies then.

donuts,
donuts avatar

No worries, it was on me. Having reread what I wrote I can see how it sounded like that's what I was saying.

GeriatricGambino,

You should care if civilian get bombed not out of sympathy for them but because it’s the right thing to do. Everything is fucked over there and will make you uncomfortable.

Not_mikey,

So is it alright if Russian civilians are bombed because of their broad support for Putin?, or u.s. and Israeli citizens get bombed for their overwhelming support for the IDF and their atrocities?

Killing civilians is bad no matter their politics.

Tedesche,

No. Governments—even bad governments—aren’t the same as terrorist groups.

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Governments can be worse than terrorists … as evidenced by South African apartheid; Stalin’s starvation of Ukrainians (when the Ukraine was still part of Russia); Hitler’s pogrom against Jews, Poles, gypsies, etc; Mao Zedong’s starvation of 45 million Chinese peasants; and Pol Pot’s genocide against Cambodian citizens of Chinese, Vietnamese, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, and intellectual ethnicities and beliefs.

Nevermind the worldwide genocide of Indigenous peoples through starvation, outright murder, removal of children from families for “re-education”, sterilization of women, etc.

Not_mikey,

What is a government and what is a terrorist group, is Hezbollah a government or a terrorist group?, was the Jim crow bourbon democratic party a government or a terrorist group?, is the Iranian state a government or a terrorist group?

Governments and terrorist groups aren’t mutually exclusive. Many governments, including the U.S., fund and support terrorist groups and terrorist acts, and many terrorist groups provide social and governmental services. Hamas does both, although there terror wing is where most of the resources and energy go, they still are, or at least were, the government of gaza and provided some governmental and social services. Them being a government doesn’t make there atrocities any better or worse, same with the Israeli state.

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

Israel claims they are attacking military targets, civilian deaths are due to collateral damage. The same would be legal for Ukraine to do in Russia. Support for Putin is hard to gauge considering they rig every election.

Zellith,

If your family were to be bombed we would see if your tune changed. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Israel is working hard to make as many enemies as possible.

donuts,
donuts avatar

You're right that he would feel different if his family was bombed by the IDF.

But then you have to consider how he would feel if his family were kidnapped, raped and murdered by Hamas.

This is a textbook cycle of violence.

snooggums,
snooggums avatar

I would guess the Palestinians see Hamas like the US looks back on the revolutionary founding fathers, people who fought back against an oppressive government in the pursuit of independence. Both situations are far more complex than that, but for the average person who sees regular violence against their group they will support the people who fight back.

Tedesche,

Hamas is not fighting for Palestinian independence, it is fighting for the destruction of Israel. The two situations are not even remotely similar.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

It’s the same thing what are you talking about

Tedesche,

No, they’re not, what are you talking about?

Such substance in these comments.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

They are fighting for an end to the occupation. These their are literal words.

The occupation is israel. An illegal colony on top of Palestine.

If the israelis want to live in Palestine many Palestinians are actually in favor (though with the recent conflict that has probably declined).

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

They are fighting for an end to the occupation. These their are literal words. The occupation is israel. An illegal colony on top of Palestine.

Jews in the levant were considered Palestinians too. Arab nationalists were murdering Jews back before Israel was founded, before the Nakba, back when they were legally purchasing land to live alongside them. This is what caused Israel and the IDF to become a thing, to defend themselves against Arabs murdering them. Hamas is just the latest manifestation of this desire by the same group, their unceasing violence has continued since those early days.

If they weren't trying to murder Jews none of this would have happened, the British wouldn't have concluded that a one-state solution wasn't viable, the UN wouldn't have drawn up borders, and Palestinians wouldn't have started and lost a war against Israel that led to belligerent lands being annexed by the victor.

If the israelis want to live in Palestine many Palestinians are actually in favor (though with the recent conflict that has probably declined).

Most Palestinians want a one-state solution where they deny Jews equal rights:

By 70 percent to 28 percent, Palestinians oppose a two-state solution — “the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.”
An even larger number — 76 percent to 21 percent — oppose a “one state solution …in which the two sides enjoy equal rights.”
https://thehill.com/opinion/4273883-mellman-do-palestinians-support-hamas-polls-paint-a-murky-picture/

520,

If you’re going to back a terrorist group, I don’t much care if you get bombed along with them.

Of course they're going to support Hamas. The terrorist cell are the only ones even remotely in the corner of the Palestinians who were first being Apartheid-level oppressed by the Israeli government, and now are getting absolutely smoked by the IDF.

'Desperate' does not even begin to describe the situation of Palestinian civilians. If you were in the same position, and the only people fighting for you is a terrorist cell, I doubt you'd be that moralistic either.

idiocracy,

hamas doesn’t fight for gaza civilians.

they steal humanitarian aid from them, use them as human shields, and caused this catastrophe upon them.

520, (edited )

And the Israeli government has been doing far, far worse.

Stealing humanitarian aid? The IDF have been straight up bombing refugee camps that they themselves told Palestinians to go to. Not to mention, the Israeli government is directly the reason why humanitarian aid needed to be sent there in the first place, having cut off essential supplies to Gaza.

Using them as human shields? The IDF is performing straight up genocides.

Hostages? The IDF have been doing the same for decades. They literally process Palestinians via a seperate IDF-run court for any and all 'offences'. The conditions they are held in are little better than that of the hostages held by Hamas, but they hold far greater numbers.

Caused this catastrophe upon them? I don't know what part of Hamas's actions you think somehow warrant straight up genocide of Palestinian civilians, but you're wrong.

Hamas are a bunch of shit heads, but they're also the only people that can and will push back against the IDF for its abuses of the Palestinian people.

Again, given the insane amount of deplorable shit the Israeli government puts the Palestinians through, it isn't surprising that they will support shitheads like Hamas. It's basically a choice between the Apartheid level oppressors or a shit head terrorist cell fighting against the Apartheid level oppressors.

idiocracy,

propoganda, fake news, half truths, and bias.

also hamas are not a “bunch of shit heads”. they were voted democratically to end Israel existance.

Limitless_screaming,
Limitless_screaming avatar

They were voted in democratically, because the other option was Fatah. Netanyahu was voted in democratically multiple times, because some people cannot stand the thought of not killing more Palestinians and not stealing more of their land.

idiocracy,

so option 1 was “death to israel” and option 2 was “death to israel” thanks for proving my point I guess

520,

propoganda, fake news, half truths, and bias.

Lol great bait mate. Try trolling harder.

ZombiFrancis,

US backed anything in this is probably going to be a problem for everyone.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

"US-backed" here meaning "The internationally recognized legitimate authority of Palestine"

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Yes, except in this case Biden has publicly backed only Netanyahu up until yesterday.

So like that’s an issue, right?

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

It is. But the implication that Abbas is 'US-backed' misses that Abbas is the head of the PLO, and the PLO is the internationally recognized government of Palestine, rather than someone the US is trying to insert into the conflict or prop up.

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Did you read in the poll that Palestinians want Abbas to quit? Cause it’s there.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Yes, I did, that doesn't change that 'US-backed' is misleading here. I have no problem with Abbas resigning or the Palestinian people desiring him to resign, my only point is that Abbas isn't some US-backed warlord or puppet. He's the winner of the last legitimate elections of Palestine (over 20 years ago now, if I'm not mistaken), the internationally recognized leader of the legitimate Palestinian government, and the US's support, insofar as it exists at all, is to the PLO rather than propping up him personally.

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

It’s not misleading. If you know anything about American history and how they’ve mucked about in other nations’ leadership, you would understand.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Jesus Christ.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities.

Jesus Christ.

TimLovesTech,
@TimLovesTech@badatbeing.social avatar

They have lived in fear under Hamas, but also are not going to side with the people deleting generations of their people from the face of the earth daily.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

It's not about 'sides', it's about not believing that Hamas has done things that it is well-recorded and easily found doing.

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Only found if you have an internet connection … which Gazans haven’t had regularily since Oct 7.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Gazans haven't had one regularly, but the West Bank has largely maintained service, and has a considerably higher level of support for Hamas.

I don't think 'lack of access to information' is the issue here.

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

And the West Bank isn’t Gaza, is it?

Please stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

... the West Bank was polled here along with Gaza.

What am I trying to justify?

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Thinking that Palestinians in the West Bank should somehow override how Gazans polled, ofc without Gazans having stable access to the internet.

The West Bank Palestinians are pissed at the Zionists for burning down their homes and taking property that isn’t theirs to take. Colonialism at its finest right there.

Gazans are dying by the thousands, and since 50% of the Gazan population was children (prior to Oct 7) Israel/IDF practiced child slaughter.

Oh, and here’s a tidbit from the poll you obviously missed … nonetheless, the majority of the Palestinians remains unsupportive of Hamas.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Thinking that Palestinians in the West Bank should somehow override how Gazans polled, ofc without Gazans having stable access to the internet.

The... the poll that you posted and that I am citing is a poll of both Gazans and West Bank residents. It's not 'overriding' anything.

The West Bank Palestinians are pissed at the Zionists for burning down their homes and taking property that isn’t theirs to take. Colonialism at its finest right there.

Gazans are dying by the thousands, and since 50% of the Gazan population was children (prior to Oct 7) Israel/IDF practiced child slaughter.

Oh, and here’s a tidbit from the poll you obviously missed … nonetheless, the majority of the Palestinians remains unsupportive of Hamas.

... what does any of that have to do with me expressing horror at the denial of Hamas's war crimes? Where have I expressed the least support for Israel in this conflict? Where have I denied Israeli colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and attempts at genocide?

Where? Because it's really looking like I'm not being responded to, but an imaginary version of an Israel supporter that has zero relevance to the comments I'm actually making.

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

… what does any of that have to do with me expressing horror at the denial of Hamas’s war crimes?

And again how in the fuck would they know about the war crimes when they haven’t had reliable, steady access to the internet?

You seem to think they should know by osmosis.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

And again how in the fuck would they know about the war crimes when they haven’t had reliable, steady access to the internet?

Again, the West Bank has access to the internet, and even the internet blackouts in Gaza are intermittent to coincide with Israeli offences and minimize proof of Israeli atrocities, not steady.

If your point is "Gazans don't or shouldn't be included in that 90% denial of war crimes", then, if I accept that for the sake of argument, that's still fucking horrifying that residents of the West Bank overwhelmingly approve or deny the war crimes.

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

So are West Bank Palestians supposed to vote twice so Gazans are covered?

Like I don’t understand why you’re harping on about the West Bank? The poll was done on all Palestinians (or at least the ones who had phone access). Why are you focusing on the West Bank then?

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

So are West Bank Palestians supposed to vote twice so Gazans are covered?

I don't understand how you got that from what I said. How is that at all an answer?

(or at least the ones who had phone access)

Again, in the article you posted it specifically mentions doing in-person interviews in Gaza.

Why are you focusing on the West Bank then?

Because you're saying Gaza should be excluded for lack of information?

BraveSirZaphod,
BraveSirZaphod avatar

Mate, this person is either too stupid or too unwilling to actually give a real response to you. Please save your sanity.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

I tend to suspect tunnel-vision when these things happens. Happens to all of us, so I try not to form any long-lasting impressions, unless I see a pattern of it.

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Because you’re saying Gaza should be excluded for lack of information?

I said that because you continuously focused on the West Bank.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

I said that because you continuously focused on the West Bank.

Only found if you have an internet connection … which Gazans haven’t had regularily since Oct 7.

This you? Because that's what started this whole aside about Gaza needing to be excluded.

BraveSirZaphod,
BraveSirZaphod avatar

It's this collapse in truth that worries me more than anything. People will simply ignore reality rather than admit that this is more complicated than good side v. bad side.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

What's the saying? "In war, truth is the first casualty"?

Sadly not new, nor likely to stop anytime soon. All we can do, as outside observers, is try to champion the truth, and avoid embracing lies, regardless of whether they fit our biases or not.

Vilian,

a yes, bevause they have time and internetbto browser their phone all day

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Internet penetration rate in Palestine is upwards of 70%, Jesus Christ

Vilian,

i was talking about gaza

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

The poll is of people in Gaza and the West Bank.

AngrilyEatingMuffins,
AngrilyEatingMuffins avatar

You aren’t aware that Israel has cut phone and internet access to Gaza? They can’t see these videos. They’re supposed to trust Israel? Give me a break.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Okay, I see the words 'West Bank' mean nothing to you.

AngrilyEatingMuffins,
AngrilyEatingMuffins avatar

They’ve been fucking with their internet, too. Besides, the media is overwhelmingly anti-Palestine and pro-Israel. You’d just tune it out.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Anything to deny the agency of Palestinians, I see.

AngrilyEatingMuffins,
AngrilyEatingMuffins avatar

Oh fuck you, you genocidal twat. Eat a bullet.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Oh fuck you, you genocidal twat. Eat a bullet.

Love that I get accused of supporting genocide for pointing out the horror of Palestinians denying Hamas's war crimes, despite the fact that I've spent this entire conflict decrying Israel's ongoing genocide.

AngrilyEatingMuffins,
AngrilyEatingMuffins avatar

Why would anyone believe that given what you’ve just posted and the fact that Hasbara votes are following you at the speed of light. Fuck off forever. Die in a ditch.

BraveSirZaphod,
BraveSirZaphod avatar

TIL I'm Hasbara.

Am I going to get paid for downvoting wishes for murder? That'd be nifty.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Why would anyone believe that given what you’ve just posted

"Palestinians are people and not saintly creatures for xenophilic Westerners to paint their own racist 'noble savage' projections over and thus this scientific poll is likely accurate, and thus horrifying"

Yes, what a horrible thing to suggest.

Alternatively, you could look through my post history, since I've been posting anti-Israel opinions since before the October attack, and even more fiercely after the October attack.

and the fact that Hasbara votes are following you at the speed of light. Fuck off forever. Die in a ditch.

what

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Israel cut their power dipshit 🙄

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

The poll is of people in Gaza and the West Bank.

Israel cut their power dipshit 🙄

Oh, so the poll didn't happen? Glad to see you didn't read the fucking article, which was conducted in Gaza with in person interviews during the 'humanitarian pause'. Business as usual for you, Queermunist, more than happy to read in your own opinions to anything you didn't actually read. Israel didn't cut power to the West Bank, by the way, but I know better at this point to expect anything but dribbling contrarianism from you.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

If they don’t have power, how are they going to be reading internet articles? 🙄 🙄 🙄

And they cut off fuel, which means the generators can’t run, which means power is extremely limited. Most people can’t charge their phones.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Consider the following:

  • The IDF defends and arms terrorists and commits terrorist acts on a daily basis
  • All israeli adults serve military duty in the IDF and are reservists. Unlike the Palestinians which are not all part of the Hamas army.
  • Current adult Israelis voted for Netanyahu which violently opresses them and commits genocide.
  • Hamas did not shoot any children
  • Hamas did not rape any women
  • Hamas did not torture any prisoners

This is in retaliation to the IDF which has been comitting all these war crimes even before 7 Oct.

If you ask Ukranians about their army killing colonists in Crimea they’re probably pretty fine with it as well.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

The IDF defends and arms terrorists and commits terrorist acts on a daily basis

Indeed, including terrorists like Hamas.

All israeli adults serve military duty in the IDF and are reservists. Unlike the Palestinians which are not all part of the Hamas army.

A country having universal conscription does not make every civilian a fucking target. What the fuck are you, Henry Kissinger (Rest In Piss)?

Hamas did not shoot any children
Hamas did not rape any women
Hamas did not torture any prisoners

Fucking doubt.

Current adult Israelis voted for Netanyahu which violently opresses them and commits genocide.

Oh, all of them?

This is in retaliation to the IDF which has been comitting all these war crimes even before 7 Oct.

Again, I reiterate - that Israel is horrible does not justify Hamas being horrible or Palestinians supporting the horrible things that Hamas does, or vice-versa.

If you ask Ukranians about their army killing colonists in Crimea they’re probably pretty fine with it as well.

I would be deeply disappointed if they did, because having armed forces murdering civilians is fucking horrific.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You’re in for a treat when you start reading about the Azov brigade. They’ve got literal Nazi’s.

And I still support Ukraine. But the western media trying to paint them as the cleanest war heroes ever is just a fairy tale. Violent resistance against oppression is never a pretty tale of roses. Especially in Hamas case when more than half the “soldiers” are untrained 19 year olds with guns

If israel treated Palestinians they would have all been appalled by what Hamas does.

The Hamas approval rating is basically a “how evil is israel” poll.

Fucking doubt.

youtu.be/mc5iG3DX7ho?si=k_JRYozXtplUgx6T

Zero evidence after two months == it didn’t happen 100%.

If there was any evidence the IDF would have been showing it on national TV for three weeks straight.

PugJesus, (edited )
PugJesus avatar

You’re in for a treat when you start reading about the Azov brigade. They’ve got literal Nazi’s.

Jesus Christ, imagine not knowing that the Azov Regiment hasn't been an independent paramilitary for almost a fucking decade now.

Good job gobbling up Russian propaganda, though! Low-information twats who think they know everything are great for unwittingly spreading false information that suits their biases!

The Hamas approval rating is basically a “how evil is israel” poll.

And what's the "How are the war crimes?" question? Also a "How evil is Israel?" poll?

youtu.be/mc5iG3DX7ho?si=k_JRYozXtplUgx6T

Zero evidence after two months == it didn’t happen 100%.

If there was any evidence the IDF would have been showing it on national TV for three weeks straight.

Fucking lmao.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

reuters.com/…/last-defenders-mariupol-what-is-ukr…

AZOV’S ORIGINS

The Azov Regiment began as one of many militias of volunteer fighters who banded together to fight pro-Russian separatists backed by Moscow who carved out two breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine in 2014 after Russia annexed the Crimean peninsula.

Mariupol is the spiritual home of the Azov Regiment which it helped Ukraine recapture from pro-Russian fighters in 2014 and where it had a permanent base until the 2022 invasion.

The militia emerged from Andriy Biletskiy’s Patriot of Ukraine organisation that critics say championed white nationalist, anti-immigrant extreme-right ideas.

www.aljazeera.com/…/who-are-the-azov-regiment

Azov is a far-right all-volunteer infantry military unit whose members – estimated at 900 – are ultra-nationalists and accused of harbouring neo-Nazi and white supremacist ideology.

The unit was initially formed as a volunteer group in May 2014 out of the ultra-nationalist Patriot of Ukraine gang, and the neo-Nazi Social National Assembly (SNA) group. Both groups engaged in xenophobic and neo-Nazi ideals and physically assaulted migrants, the Roma community and people opposing their views.

I’m pretty sure that they’ve got some Nazi shit going on there. Mind showing me where im misinformed?

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

AZOV’S ORIGINS

ORIGINS

ORIGINS

Our media’s “obsession” with the Azov Regiment (the volunteer militia the Azov Battalion no longer exists) – a single unit of the Ukrainian National Guard – is based largely on superficial or out-of-date research.

Multiple expert assessments made in 2022 conclude the modern Azov Regiment is a fairly typical fighting unit, with little, if any, political bent.

There isn’t space to canvas all these in a short piece, but this is the conclusion of Anton Shekhovtsov, Ivan Gomza, Anders Umland, and Vyacheslav Likhachev. For a concise summary, Likhachev’s point-by-point rebuttal of the Azov-Nazi narrative comes highly recommended.

Read more: Cyberwar: Keeping track of the battle to keep Ukraine online

The Azov Regiment of 2022 bears little relation to the ragtag militia the Azov Battalion of 2014, formed from a few dozen football hooligans, and – yes – far-right extremists.

Crucially, in late 2014, Azov was absorbed into the Ukrainian National Guard, allowing greater state oversight, with considerable attention paid to cleansing the ranks of far-right elements, in what should be recognised as an example of successful deradicalisation.

The Azov Regiment has been repeatedly reconstituted; its extremist early leaders such as the odious Andriy Biletsky are long gone, and, more recently, its fearsome, pseudo-pagan regimental emblem has been abandoned.

Both Shekhovtsov and Gomza describe Azov as “depoliticised”, with Umland writing “its recruits now join not because of ideology, but because it has the reputation of being a particularly tough fighting unit”.

Nonetheless, Russian state media makes endless reference to the diabolical “Azovtsy” to justify its brutal invasion of Ukraine.

https://lens.monash.edu/@politics-society/2022/08/19/1384992/much-azov-about-nothing-how-the-ukrainian-neo-nazis-canard-fooled-the-world

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Russia will use any excuse it wants to invade. If Azov didn’t exist it woud be NATO being too close. Putin just wants more land that’s all.

That said you can’t just discard the Azov origin which is only 8 years old. That’s like saying ISIS origins don’t matter. The old gang with a new name is just the old gang.

This article is a great summary. Especially near the middle: www.thenation.com/…/azov-battalion-neo-nazi/

"

There is a kernel of truth in the allegations that Azov is just a Russian bogeyman. The Kremlin and Ukraine’s neo-Nazis have a symbiotic relationship that reaches to the very heart of this war: Putin needed a pretext to justify his illegal invasion; for that, he turned to Azov. Moscow seized on Azov’s existence to paint all of Ukraine as a cesspool of fascism in need of “denazification.” Azov is the linchpin in Putin’s narrative—without it, his excuse for the war is gone.

In turn, Azov’s defenders have capitalized on Russia’s obsession by implying that anyone who criticizes the group is a Putin apologist. Moscow and Azov use each other to defend the indefensible: For Russia, it’s acceptable to invade a sovereign country to fight neo-Nazis; for the West, it’s appropriate to lionize neo-Nazis because they’re fighting Russia

OUT WITH THE OLD, IN WITH THE OLD:

The problem with insisting that Azov’s neo-Nazism is just a Russian lie is the abundance of evidence to the contrary. Seven years’ worth of Western articles chronicling the group’s nature was too much to ignore. This left Azov’s whitewashers with the unenviable task of cobbling together a come-to-Jesus story in which Azov began as a neo-Nazi paramilitary group but somehow saw the error of its ways before 2022.

The narrative that emerged goes like this: (a) Azov’s deradicalization started after it joined Ukraine’s National Guard—over time, Biletsky and other veterans of the 2014 battalion were filtered out, implying that the new leadership is neo-Nazi free; (b) yes, there are a few leftover neo-Nazis in the National Corps, Azov’s political party; but © that doesn’t matter, because the Azov Regiment—later a brigade—has long since separated from the National Corps, which is little more than a fringe political sideshow.

"

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

That said you can’t just discard the Azov origin which is only 8 years old. That’s like saying ISIS origins don’t matter. The old gang with a new name is just the old gang

It's literally the opposite though - it's a new gang with the old name, which is why useful idiots keep repeating neonazi claims about Azov. Recruits have been assigned to Azov by standard Ukrainian National Guard's standards since it's absorption and the purging of many of its radical members in 2015. In an organization where the term of enlistment is 3 years, and not permanent, unlike, you know, ISIS, or even voluntary political parties, 8 years is a long fucking time.

The article relies on the presumption that Western media reporting on Azov pre-2022 weren't offering surface level analysis that anyone who actually followed the fucking situation knew was outdated by 2017. But believe what you want - useful idiots always do.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

A bit further down the article it also goes over the current members of Azov and how they are basically the same as before and they’re still saying Nazi shit.

"

Prokopenko, for his part, came out of the White Boys Club, superfans of the Dynamo Kyiv soccer team (far-right groups organized around soccer teams are common across Europe), who celebrated him when he was given an award in October 2022. The group’s Facebook posts have typically included phrases like “100% White” and “88” (code for “Heil Hitler”), praise for Holocaust perpetrators, and Waffen-SS insignia.

During his time in Azov, Prokopenko’s platoon was unofficially called the Borodach Division. Its insignia was the Totenkopf, the skull-and-crossbones design used by the SS, which has become a popular neo-Nazi symbol. (Azov’s version added some fascist whimsy by giving the skull a beard and hipster mustache.)

Azov’s current acting commander—who took over in June 2022, after Prokopenko surrendered to Russian forces—is also an original Azov veteran.> By 2021, the Azov Movement’s position as a premier hub of transnational white supremacy was firmly established. It was tracked by researchers; its fighters were banned from receiving military aid by Congress; and it was kicked off Facebook. The State Department declared its political wing a “nationalist hate group.” Journalists exposed its enlistment of fighters from Sweden to Australia.

"

forty2,
@forty2@lemmy.world avatar

It’s relative. If you’ve seen people around you being abused you become a little desensitized to what ‘abuse’ is. If abuse is normal every day living for one person, and not for another; the later sees it as abuse and the former sees it as another normal day.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Gaza resident anytime in the last 50+ years and consider yourself lucky that your reality allows you to be able to identify an atrocity when you see one.

Consider the reality these people have experienced for generations before leveling judgement on their opinions.

rosymind,

The entire situation is nauseating. I understand that Israel is a U.S. ally and that sometimes supporting allies means making decisions against better judgement, but… I would rather the U.S. wasn’t involved in this at all. It’s a bloody mess. Literally.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Yeah, no, I don't think I'm gonna play apologist for the opinion that "Hundreds of Israeli civilians had it coming for the crime of existing, I'm glad that they were gunned down by a terrorist attack, this isn't a war crime in the least."

That kind of "But they've been living in fear! It's different!" justification is the same shit Israel has used throughout its history to justify its atrocities, and it's no more valid in the mouth of Israel than it is in Palestine's.

forty2, (edited )
@forty2@lemmy.world avatar

You’re missing the point. For whatever it’s worth, I do agree with what you’ve written here. But what I’m talking about is perspective in understanding why the opinion polls shows the numbers they do.

What I’m NOT talking about is it being an excuse for behaviour. Surely you can understand why attitudes and opinions might differ between geographic regions and due to history.

Get off your soapbox, and try to understand why people think the way they do. You may come closer to actually understanding the nuances of reality instead of cocooning yourself in talking points. It’s all about relative perspective if you want to understand numbers being thrown around

Edit:

Just to be more clear, what I’m talking about is the difference between

“Hundreds of Israeli civilians had it coming for the crime of existing, I’m glad that they were gunned down by a terrorist attack, this isn’t a war crime in the least.”

And

“Hundreds of civilians have been killed for years, I’ve seen it happening and nothing has changed over a reasonable period of time. I guess this isn’t a war crime.”

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

What I’m NOT talking about is it being an excuse for behaviour. Surely you can understand why attitudes and opinions might differ between geographic regions and due to history.

'Understanding why' and 'playing apologist for' are two entirely different games. I understand why the Nazis garnered support in Weimar Germany. I understand why the Israeli security state developed and has such wide support amongst Israelis. I understand why Palestinians support terrorism while locked in a purgatory of occupation and imprisonment.

I'm not going to play apologist for them. I'm not going to sit here and say "Oh, I guess that's a little bad, but it's okay, because they're suffering too."

Supporting war crimes is horrifying. "They've had atrocities inflicted on them often too!", yeah, and so have the Israelis, and yet when Israeli polls come out with horrifying numbers like "70%+ of Israelis support bombing Palestinian civilians", I'm aghast at that horrific shit too.

It's not okay. It's not to be justified.

Get off your soapbox, and try to understand why people think the way they do. You may come closer to actually understanding the nuances of reality instead of cocooning yourself in talking points. It’s all about relative perspective if you want to understand numbers being thrown around

Man, I don't know what you think I'm doing here. What talking points am I cocooning myself in? Please, give an example.

forty2,
@forty2@lemmy.world avatar

Dude, maybe I’m not explaining myself properly because I feel like we’re talking about two different things.

You said you “understand why Palestinians support terrorism while locked in a purgatory of occupation and imprisonment” if you understand this, then do you think their (meaning the average person) definitions of certain terms may be different to what we see?

If my definition of normal is not your definition of normal then can you judge the “normalcy”?

Again, I’m not saying this excuses behavior. But I do think it sheds light on why the poll is at 10%. The average Palestinian has seen copious amounts of indiscriminate violence (as has the average Israeli resident), do you reckon they might have a different bar for what constitutes a war crime or atrocity based on what they’ve been seeing around them for years?

Personally, I think this low poll numbers speaks more to what people are defining as an atrocity over there. Shits gotten so bad that murder is common.

As for talking points…man, I want to apologize for that. I felt myself getting emotionally invested in this back and forth and really shouldn’t have said that. I think “apologist” just triggered me because it’s gained a bit of a stigma

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

My point here is twofold:

  1. That not defining murdering civilians as a war crime is horrifying regardless of whether or not you've had war crimes perpetrated on you, and that Israel's extremists peddle the same basic line of "It's just paying them back", and it's fucking horrifying there too.

  2. That the deliberate denial of atrocities is a common phenomenon amongst radicalized supporters of causes, such as how British imperialists denied their atrocities and ignored evidence to the contrary, or the denial amongst some Americans of US atrocities at home and abroad.

Whether either or both apply, it is fucking disgusting and horrifying. Again, Israel makes the same excuses for their high level of support for murdering Palestinians - it's no more justified there than it is here.

forty2,
@forty2@lemmy.world avatar

I agree with you on both points. Whats missing is the difference in definition of “war crime” and “atrocity” by the average citizen. These polls weren’t conducted solely on politicians, dignitaries, intellectuals, and the like.

If you don’t recognize an act as a war crime any more because of your lived experience. Are you able to willfully apply (or not apply) that label correctly?

Again, thinking about why the poll reflects the attitude towards Hamas + atrocities. Its not a matter of tit-for-tat I think; that is, its not “well they’ve been committing these ‘atrocities’ against us, so us doing it to them is valid/justified”. I think its “things have been happening and i don’t know what a war crime is, so when we do the same thing to them it can’t be a war crime…can it?”

In order for “deliberate denial of atrocities” to apply, you have to recognize an atrocity first and then deliberately deny it. Undoubtedly, the case amongst most intellectuals inside Gaza is that they recognize it very well. But I’d argue it isn’t true for the average citizen on either side of the fence. I’m talking about the people that are watching all this unfold from inside the border, Israelis and Palestinians. Shop keepers, taxi drivers, etc.

In fact, I’d wager that if a similar poll was conducted on Israeli citizens they’d most likely have a similar response to “did the IDF commit atrocities”. Its status quo over there. I’m not debating if these people are right or wrong in their thinking, I imagine there’s a whole conversation to be had around the notion.

So while it is definitely not right to say that Hamas did not commit war crimes or that they aren’t responsible for atrocities, I think its important to understand (and not vilify) that the very definitions we’re using for those terms may not be consistent inside that particular region. And that this should play into our accounting for why only 10% of Palestinians think Hamas committed war crimes.

That’s it. That last line, that’s all I’ve been trying to say

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

In fact, I’d wager that if a similar poll was conducted on Israeli citizens they’d most likely have a similar response to “did the IDF commit atrocities”. Its status quo over there.

I mentioned that, specifically. My point is that that standard is fucking horrible on either side.

forty2,
@forty2@lemmy.world avatar

My point is that that standard is fucking horrible on either side.

Without question. This is the scary part when it comes to “after the conflict”. There is an entire population of people for whom violence on this level has been normalized; but vilifying the people caught up in their respective propaganda machines and the machinations of their respective governments isn’t going to mend fences down the line. At the geo-political level, they may shake hands and even settle differences one day…but the familiarity with intense violence will need to be reckoned with and reconciled for the general population on both sides.

jeena,
@jeena@jemmy.jeena.net avatar

We are shocked! Who would have thought.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

😲

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