Gen Z boys and men more likely than baby boomers to believe feminism harmful, says poll

Boys and men from generation Z are more likely than older baby boomers to believe that feminism has done more harm than good, according to research that shows a “real risk of fractious division among this coming generation”.

…

On feminism, 16% of gen Z males felt it had done more harm than good. Among over-60s the figure was 13%.

The figures emerged from Ipsos polling for King’s College London’s Policy Institute and the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership. The research also found that 37% of men aged 16 to 29 consider “toxic masculinity” an unhelpful phrase, roughly double the number of young women who don’t like it.

“This is a new and unusual generational pattern,” said Prof Bobby Duffy, director of the Policy Institute. “Normally, it tends to be the case that younger generations are consistently more comfortable with emerging social norms, as they grew up with these as a natural part of their lives.”

Link to study: kcl.ac.uk/…/masculinity-and-womens-equality-study…

kescusay,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

Seriously doubt this (and most polling these days). Gen Z is particularly unlikely to respond to polls or answer unknown callers in general. Until those issues in polling are solved, I take them with a grain of salt.

lolcatnip,

Do you have any reason to believe zoomers’ willingness to respond to polls (compared to other zoomers) is correlated with their views on feminism?

rambaroo,

There are multiple studies showing the same thing. Denying it isn’t going to change anything.

Sektor,

The result is not to my liking, it must be wrong.

stoly,

That is NOT what they are saying. They are suggesting that the methodology may have been wrong, which is a perfectly reasonable question that EVERY person should ask themselves EVERY SINGLE TIME they hear about a study releasing results.

BolexForSoup, (edited )
BolexForSoup avatar

So your doubt is based on a feeling? We don’t even consider Ipsos legitimate now?

This feels like the left equivalent of “fake news!” when we see something we don’t like

Deceptichum,
Deceptichum avatar

Did you look at the questions? Half of them are basically, “Have you heard of Andrew Tate” (which of course younger people are more likely to have), “Do you agree with Andrew Tate”, “Is Andrew Tate Bad”, etc.

The polling is irrelevant if the universities questions suck shit.

AnotherAttorney,

I mean, agreeing with Andrew Tate is a pretty solid indicator that you’re not a feminist.

Deceptichum,
Deceptichum avatar

The issue is that younger people are more likely to agree with him, because older people have no idea who he is.

The question introduces generational biases.

AnotherAttorney,

The agreement questions were only posed to those who responded that they knew about him. It’s not like they were asking old people who had no idea who he was if they agreed with him.

MxM111,
MxM111 avatar

Is it possible that you are more likely to know him if you agree with him? And also if you are younger? That will skew the outcome.

AnotherAttorney,

Not necessarily. A lot of people know about controversial figures like Crowder and Shapiro but don’t agree with them.

MxM111,
MxM111 avatar

Of course, I am only talking about likelihoods. If you do not know a person, but have a friend how shares your political views, it is more likely that your friend recommend to learn about that person, if the person’s view also coincides with yours. Kind of echo chamber effect.

BolexForSoup,
BolexForSoup avatar

That looks like a pretty standard battery of poll questions to me. If somebody says they have an opinion of Andrew Tate but you can’t confirm whether or not they have even heard of him, then the answer is near-useless unless you’re trying to make some sort of study about how people have opinions on things they don’t know about, which I highly doubt was the purpose of this poll.

Do you have experience developing polls? It’s OK if you don’t have any, but I’m looking for some reason why your attack is valid in the face of a respectable group like Ipsos. Do you have any sources for why this is bad? I feel like we are just getting your gut feelings here. You have to give us something more than “this sounds silly to me.”

kibiz0r,

Yeah, the privacy-minded socially-averse demographic is a well-documented stronghold of feminist support.

MicroWave, (edited )
@MicroWave@lemmy.world avatar

Looks like this was an online poll where you get paid if randomly selected:

Ipsos UK interviewed online a representative sample of 3,716 adults aged 16+ across the United Kingdom between 17 and 23 August 2023. This data has been collected by Ipsos’s UK KnowledgePanel, an online random probability panel…

kcl.ac.uk/…/masculinity-and-womens-equality-study…

For what it’s worth, there’s a recent Gallup survey showing a similar trend that published a couple weeks ago:

…Since 2014, women between the ages of 18 and 29 have steadily become more liberal each year, while young men have not. Today, female Gen Zers are more likely than their male counterparts to vote, care more about political issues, and participate in social movements and protests.

businessinsider.com/gen-z-gender-gap-young-men-wo…

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

If you pay me to answer your poll, I’ll answer it however you want me to.

bedrooms,

But they didn't tell you how they wanted you to answer, I guess...

anytimesoon,

Truthfully?

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Of course not. Why would I care about telling the truth as long as I was getting paid?

tsonfeir,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

I’ll select the first option for everything. Give me my AppleBee’s coupon!!

iAmTheTot,
iAmTheTot avatar

You just said you'd answer it however they want you to. The way they want you to is truthfully.

taigaman,
taigaman avatar

Got eem

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I think you know what I meant.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble,

What you meant is being communicated clearly. Why you think it’s some sort of conspiracy against big feminism or some shit is the confusing part.

They just want you to answer the poll legitimately.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Then why are they paying people to respond?

GregorGizeh,

Id say to make a group of people generally averse to participating in such polls, participate.

Why do people participate in any such polls? Because they think their opinion is important and want it heard, or because they get something. Market researchers usually give test groups their products for free or at a discount. Researchers pay people to participate in studies. Most humans don’t do things without motivation.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble,

So they respond.

If you don’t pay people then you’re only going to get people who are really enthusiastic about it to respond. If you actually compensate them for their time then people will take time out of their day to talk about something they probably don’t care about.

iAmTheTot,
iAmTheTot avatar

No, I don't. You said you'd do whatever they want if they paid you, then immediately said you wouldn't do it truthfully if they paid you to answer truthfully. It's nonsensical.

undercrust,

LOL, this dude’s been lucky enough to never read a strategically worded political poll apparently.

All polls are inherently biased in their wording. Almost no poll-makers are non-partisan, and the people most likely to complete polls are often the most biased.

Statistics baybeee! They’ll tell you whatever you want if you structure your intake datum properly!

TSG_Asmodeus,
@TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

LOL, this dude’s been lucky enough to never read a strategically worded political poll apparently.

So why did women and men respond completely differently, if not because… they feel that way?

BolexForSoup,
BolexForSoup avatar

It is impossible to have truly "objective" polling. There are the questions, there are the answers, and you assess within that context. We have standards and practices that help steer us towards higher quality input/output knowing that nothing is airtight.

This is a nonsense standard of your own making. News, history, doesn't matter. "Just the facts" and "true objectivity" are a noble dream at best (to borrow from Novick) and are unachievable. You do the best you can, account for biases/different narratives, and deliver the results. That's always how it has been. It doesn't make these fields totally arbitrary or worthless as you imply.

FlowVoid,

Then why are boomers immune to the pollster’s secret agenda?

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t remember saying they had a secret agenda.

TSG_Asmodeus,
@TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

Of course not. Why would I care about telling the truth as long as I was getting paid?

So is it just the men who are lying ‘to get paid’, or are the women too?

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I didn’t say they were lying to get paid, I said if someone paid me, I would answer however they wanted me to answer. I speak for no one but myself.

BolexForSoup,
BolexForSoup avatar

Look a lot of yall have some flippant remarks about polling methods, and while they are far from perfect, these are valid methods. Ipsos and Gallup (who showed similar results) are respectable groups. We can bicker about the specific numbers but the trend is clear and it’s something we need to address. Jeering and mocking pollsters doesn’t change that.

astral_avocado,

Good polling can be formated in a way to weed out people giving nonsense answers, it’s like the first thing you learn about polling in sociology or psychology, how to extract quality data.

BolexForSoup,
BolexForSoup avatar

This whole thread is so irritating. The number of people who think their snap judgment of a headline invalidates all of polling/stats is astounding.

astral_avocado, (edited )

It’s easier to think there are easy answers that validate your preformed opinions…

BolexForSoup,
BolexForSoup avatar

“I’ve literally never participated in a nationwide poll nor have I ever made one outside of scheduling with friends but in my expert opinion these questions are terrible.”

xor,

and how many people will click on an ad or email saying you’ll get paid to take a poll?
is that a representative portion of the population or a very niche subgroup of desperate, gullible or extremely bored people?
how/where was it advertised?
…
polls don’t have to be bullshit, but they always are…

lud,

It sounds like you are sent the poll by snailmail and/or you are “recruited” that way and are then sent multiple polls over sometime.

www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uk-knowledgepanel

It’s hard to get random people’s emails and still be sure that the samling is good. This way seems more reliable. The few serious polls I have ever been sent by the National Bureau of Statistics has always been sent by snailmail (or technically digital snailmail which is connected to my digital ID)

xor,

technically digital snailmail which is connected to my digital ID

do you mean e-mail? or is this some UK thing?

lud,

No, it’s a free service you sign up for which delivers all the snailmail you get from governments and others to a digital mailbox instead. It’s like instant snailmail.

It functions using an app or website instead of email, so you login by verifying your ID and not a password. I think the service is fairly common where I live.

You can also get some receipts via that service.

The service automatically organises all your mail into folders for each sender and separately for receipts and payments. Sender folders wouldn’t work well for email because you get email for a lot of people and companies but with this service I have only collected 16 different senders over 3 years.

You can also share your digital mailbox with other people.

It’s very convenient and saves time and paper. So I highly recommend checking if anything similar exists where you live.

I don’t live in the UK so I don’t know if they have anything like it.

xor,

so… they scan and digitize your mail for you?

lud,

No, they send it through the service. Nothing ever gets printed.

The different companies and government organisations do have to support it though.

There are a few different companies that deliver the same service, the biggest (and first?) one is apparently used by almost half of the country’s population. Pretty much every service supports all the governmental organisations. Company support varies more.

One of the smaller (not small) service provider is owned by the goverment. I am thinking of switching to that one but I haven’t bother yet.

Apparently at least one of the smaller providers supports scanning of all physical mail but I have never had that.

ClockworkOtter,

That’s an interesting thing to note. If the people more likely to approve of Tate and his message are the ones looking for easy money then that could indicate a degree of selection bias.

Daft_ish, (edited )

The existence and popularity of people like Tate and toxic dating strategy shit might be an indication of how Gen Z is handling misogyny. It’s possible Gen Z hasn’t been exposed to misogyny in such heavy doses as the rest of us. Seeing your peers undervalued and objectified could sort of be an inoculation. There also might be a perquisite strong belief in equality component.

For things like feminism, the battle is never over. Insidious ideals like misogyny needs to be constantly kept in check.

givesomefucks,

Your first link disagrees with the article you posted…

And while younger people overall have a more favourable view of this phrase, there is a big gender divide in views among them: 37% of men aged 16 to 29 say “toxic masculinity” is an unhelpful phrase, roughly double the 19% of young women who feel this way. Correspondingly, young women (47%) are considerably more likely than young men (29%) – or any other age category – to find it a helpful term.

By contrast, views among older age groups vary less by gender – although older men are more likely than younger men to say “toxic masculinity” is an unhelpful term.

It sounds like the only change is you get women are more supportive of feminism than older women…

MicroWave, (edited )
@MicroWave@lemmy.world avatar

The first link is the study the article cites to. Also, I don’t think there’s a disagreement. The portion you cited refers specifically to “toxic masculinity,” whereas the article focuses on people’s reactions to “feminism.” Specifically, it mentions that 16% of Gen Z males felt feminism had done more harm than good, compared to 13% among those over 60, to support its claim.

givesomefucks,

Looked at the pdf …

The public think the oldest group of men are most likely to believe equal opportunities for women have gone too far – but it is actually men aged 30 to 59 men who are more likely to feel this way47% of the public think older men aged 60+ are most likely to believe attempts to give women equal opportunities have gone too far – the top answer given. But in reality, 20% of men aged 30 to 59 hold this view, compared with 13% of men aged 60+.

For 16-29, it’s 5%

So yeah, still not sure why you’re using a string of different articles, but they don’t agree with you main post bud…

MicroWave,
@MicroWave@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not sure what you’re arguing anymore. I said the article focuses on the “feminism” portion of the study. This new portion you cited to is about “equal opportunities.” Look at page 15 of the PDF where it specifically shows 16% for men aged 16-29 vs. 13% for men aged 60+ with respect to “feminism” (the point of the article).

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/574b6510-281a-4a24-8922-63a1aac68a24.png

givesomefucks,

Thank!

I saw the survey was just British respondents, but I didn’t know that question was specifically about British culture…

Sorry, it’s really hard to follow all the omissions and misrepresentations a survey went thru to get to the post you decided should be the main one.

But yeah, older people are going to remember what it was like 40 years ago and can see the good feminism has done.

A teenager would have know first hand knowledge how bad it was even a decade ago.

MicroWave,
@MicroWave@lemmy.world avatar

No worries! Sorry if my tone sounded harsh. Yeah, I agree with you that new articles can sometimes have tunnel vision.

Tak,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m betting that 16% suffers with toxic masculinity.

smileyhead,

Everyone who doesn’t accept this is toxic!

maynarkh,

This is exactly why it’s not a helpful term. We are all suffering from it, all genders alike but in different ways.

The phenomenon referred to as toxic masculinity is a trait of society, not individuals. It’s the sum of all destructive societal expectations placed on men, the whole “don’t cry, repress your feelings, you must be the strong one” thing. It causes men to be emotionally repressed and potentially violent or self-destructive, and also causes society to associate leadership and strength with men alone, contributing to a glass ceiling effect for other genders.

A lot of people hear “toxic masculinity” and associate it with “men bad”, that’s why it’s not as constructive a term as it could be.

Omegamanthethird,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

“A lot of people hear “toxic masculinity” and associate it with “men bad”, that’s why it’s not as constructive a term as it could be.”

Specifically, people have been told that it means masculinity is toxic rather than a specific type of masculinity.

HauntedCupcake,

It sits in the same realm as “mansplaining” to me. There’s an actual academic background behind it that’s largely fair and reasonable, but I mostly see it misused as a way to attack men

Omegamanthethird,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

YES! Mansplaining isn’t just a man explaining things.

MrJameGumb, (edited )
@MrJameGumb@lemmy.world avatar

“1/5th of one quarter of the small group of men who participated in one survey that was only taken in a single country know who Andrew Tate is and approve of him, thus all GenZ men hate feminism”

This article is a fucking joke

Sasha,

I can’t believe I actually had a full on moment of, “thankfully that’s not me” before realising I’m not a boy or a man anyway.

This is sad and concerning though

paddirn,

Is this just a cyclical thing that will swing back and forth like a pendulum? Feminism surges for a few years, following a big sort of zeitgeist-defining event ( being the recent one), but then it sort of just gets taken for granted, attention lags, and a quasi counter-feminist movement emerges that pushes back against that. Have we had this happen before in the past few decades? I feel like recently at least I’ve seen a lot more men online bemoan the fact that nobody is paying attention to their inner-world. It’s not even men bringing up or attacking feminism as a problem, I feel like more of the arguments are careful not to go there, more that society in general just doesn’t care that much about men’s emotional world. I would assume that along with that, you’d have some men pushing back against feminism or as seeing it as having over-extended itself.

nicetriangle,
nicetriangle avatar

I feel like more of the arguments are careful not to go there, more that society in general just doesn’t care that much about men’s emotional world.

As a man I feel like the main people to blame for this are men both now and historically. So many of us were raised with this macho bullshit hold-it-all-in thing and our parents' generation were even worse about it and theirs even worse still.

exocrinous,

Men and women are both welcome to join nonbinary people in the fight to smash patriarchy

driving_crooner,
@driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br avatar

en.wikipedia.org/…/Backlash:_The_Undeclared_War_A…

This is something feminists already wrote about since the 90’s

rikudou,

Well, that’s a new one. Not that surprising, though.

muntedcrocodile,
@muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world avatar

How did they define femanism cos by trational dedinition of equal i heighly doubt it

nicetriangle,
nicetriangle avatar

I'd wager that people who think that couldn't give you a coherent definition of what feminism actually is.

God fucking forbid women receive equal treatment or autonomy over their bodies!

ArbitraryValue, (edited )

Is there a coherent definition of feminism that feminists agree on?

(I think that people’s opinion about feminism is commonly their opinion about self-identified feminists. It’s fair to say “I believe feminism is harmful because the opinions I have heard self-identified feminists express have often seemed ridiculous, offensive, or counterproductive” without needing a definition of feminism that goes beyond self-identification.)

nicetriangle,
nicetriangle avatar

The definition I found that popped up on google pretty well sums up what I have always heard women say.

The advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes

It's really that simple. It's not a women over men movement. It's a movement to receive the same respect, rights, and inclusion that men have enjoyed basically forever. They want the right to make decisions about their body. They'd like to maybe not be victims of sexual assault and rape and staggering percentages (about 1 in 6 American women will be raped in their lifetime). They'd like to have a better chance at corporate leadership (10% of fortune 500 CEOs are women). They'd like to have more of a footprint in government (roughly 28% of the US congress is female and this is a record high).

They just want equity and respect and they deserve it.

ArbitraryValue,

There’s an essay that I agree with about that sort of definition.

Here’s a relevant excerpt:

I feel like every single term in social justice terminology has a totally unobjectionable and obviously important meaning – and then is actually used a completely different way.

The closest analogy I can think of is those religious people who say “God is just another word for the order and beauty in the Universe” – and then later pray to God to smite their enemies. And if you criticize them for doing the latter, they say “But God just means there is order and beauty in the universe, surely you’re not objecting to that?”

The result is that people can accuse people of “privilege” or “mansplaining” no matter what they do, and then when people criticize the concept of “privilege” they retreat back to “but ‘privilege’ just means you’re interrupting women in a women-only safe space. Surely no one can object to criticizing people who do that?”

Let’s say that, for example, I affirmed my belief that people should be hired based on their ability rather than on their sex, but then I said that there are more men than women in software development mainly due to biological differences. That doesn’t go against your definition, but do you think most feminists would react well to it? They didn’t when James Damore said it, or when the president of Harvard said something similar…

(This is despite the fact that it’s commonly accepted that biological differences between the sexes are the main reason why there are more men than women who are violent criminals.)

nicetriangle,
nicetriangle avatar

As a man myself I'm just having a hard time sympathizing with other men who grief at a term like "mansplaining" and in that find the justifications for disregarding the crux of what feminism seeks to make right. Is the term thrown around too much? Sure, I bet it is. So are a lot of absolutely vile quips about women. I can empathize with why some women are as verbally antagonistic towards men as they are.

To your other point. Are women underrepresented in STEM fields because they lack the ability to tackle those problems or because women have been historically directed away from those sorts of professions for as long as we have history to look back on?

You can play some of this off to less women wanting X or Y job, but if you cannot acknowledge men holding 9 out of 10 CEO positions in fortune 500 companies as maybe being a symptom of major structural imbalances in favor of men, I do not know what to tell you. I've watched women be professionally undermined throughout the entirety of my working life.

Also I missed your edit on your previous comment:

(I think that people’s opinion about feminism is commonly their opinion about self-identified feminists. It’s fair to say “I believe feminism is harmful because the opinions I have heard self-identified feminists express have often seemed ridiculous, offensive, or counterproductive” without needing a definition of feminism that goes beyond self-identification.)

Would it be then fair to say that, men broadly speaking are harmful because a not insignificant group of men rape about 16% of the female population? I think judging any group wholesale by the actions of it's most extreme cohort is problematic. And in this case we're talking about words women said that made some guys feel bad.

I just don't buy into the counter argument to feminism and I think this quote sums up how a lot of men are feeling about the topic right now.

When you're accustomed to privilege equality feels like oppression.

maynarkh,

To your other point. Are women underrepresented in STEM fields because they lack the ability to tackle those problems or because women have been historically directed away from those sorts of professions for as long as we have history to look back on?

To speak to that, back when software development was not a prestigious job, it was done mostly by women. The lead developer for the Apollo program’s guidance software is a woman, Margaret Hamilton.

bedrooms,

Well, in the old days US women couldn't even vote. Feminism was thus more important than it is today. It's not really surprising to me that opponents increase by 3% points as women win more equality.

Deceptichum,
Deceptichum avatar

So it seems it’s largely ethnic minorities in this age bracket that support this view?

What’s the bet that correlates strongly with religiousness.

AbouBenAdhem, (edited )

To be fair—they’re asking people to judge the effect of a movement, but only one of the groups remembers what things were like before the movement. It could just be that more gen Zers honestly don’t know the answer.

bedrooms,

Although I understand the importance of feminism, I never had the impression that feminists are good at PR. Somehow, most articles written by feministsI've read love to stereotype and bash men.

lolcatnip,

That’s selection bias. Reasonable feminists usually don’t crow about being feminists, probably because they don’t want to be judged based on stereotypes about feminists.

andyburke,
@andyburke@fedia.io avatar

... just curious, but are you perusing a lot of feminist literature?

I know I'm not.

But what I do see are the articles that the right wing has decided are rage inducing and fair game and that they plaster everywhere to try to influence people.

So ... maybe worth some thought.

bedrooms,

No. And I don't think I've encountered these articles on right-wing webpages when I vistas there out of curiosity. I instead think some were rants on Reddit written by feminists (while I can't recall how I encountered others). So maybe a selection bias on my side, or the loudest feminists get more upvotes even outside rightwing subreddits.

spujb,

this is the correct analysis. true feminists are fine at PR, but unfortunately grifters who profit off of right wing ideas being spread have a vested interest in making feminists appear evil in order to maintain the status quo.

pete_the_cat,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    520,

    Feminism is something with many internal factions. But yeah, the loudest ones aren't usually interested in genuine discourse. Some of those factions can act every bit as unhinged as 'persecuted' Christians about total non-issues, like Oscars nominations despite womankind as a whole having some very real issues to worry about.

    MagicShel,

    People who say reasonable things most people can agree with rarely get their own platform.

    gAlienLifeform,
    @gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

    Also, lots of people who say reasonable things have lies spread about them by misogynists and get made to look unreasonable

    MagicShel,

    That too, that too. There are a lot of times something sounds absolutely nuts without context (and reasonable with it) and that is frequently used against certain folks as well.

    DarkThoughts,

    Not everyone claiming to be a feminist is actually one. There's a lot of misandrists that use the feminist label to spread their bullshit. But feminism in of itself is meant to be an egalitarian movement, it's about equality. It was never meant to bash men or make them unequal to women.

    I do agree however that many feminists often look away when these type of people spew their garbage out into the public. I think especially women need to make sure to tell these people where to stuff it and that their shit isn't welcomed.

    frezik,

    A good chunk of the “feminist” who are guilty of it are also TERFs. To them, trans women are just creepy men, and trans men are women trying to cheat into getting male privilege. They started from a place of hating men, and that’s where they went.

    Feminism as a whole has also been trying very hard to kick them out of the club. That’s difficult when there’s no central authority figure who dictates what is and is not feminism, but TERFs don’t last long at most of the meetups.

    rambaroo,

    That has nothing to do with feminists as a whole, it’s just how the media works. You don’t get clicks without controversy. The vast majority of feminists I’ve known irl are chill people.

    TSG_Asmodeus, (edited )
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.

    Does anyone have a link to any of these? I keep hearing recently that somehow this has been a thing for ages, but last I checked “wanting gender equality” was the driving idea of feminism, and that a large portion of women and men agreed with this.

    I’m in my early 40’s and I definitely haven’t seen some deluge of articles by women, who while proclaiming feminism, “stereotype and bash men.”

    EDIT: Seven downvotes, zero links. Pretty par for the course, guys. I’m not surprised, just disappointed.

    EDIT 2: To any men, or boys, reading this who have been assaulted, there are supports for you. Feminism is as much about getting you the support you need that you don’t have just as much as it is about getting women the support they need. I can’t cover every country here, but if you’re from Canada like me here is a government link to services for men and boys in intimate partner violence situations, and for ‘general abuse’ there is this link. There are people out there who care, please reach out to them.

    Derproid,

    Go take a look at the UN’s Twitter account on National Men’s day. Or I remember articles about how 1 in 4 homeless are women and it’s a tragedy for women. Honestly if you have seen articles like these before you’re either not reading many of them or you aren’t noticing what they are saying.

    TSG_Asmodeus,
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    Go take a look at the UN’s Twitter account on National Men’s day. Or I remember articles about how 1 in 4 homeless are women and it’s a tragedy for women. Honestly if you have seen articles like these before you’re either not reading many of them or you aren’t noticing what they are saying.

    So an article, and some twitter comments. That’s not exactly “…most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.”

    bostonbananarama,

    How dishonest can you be? You specifically asked for a link to ANY of these. You got a response that gave you some examples, and you respond:

    So an article, and some twitter comments. That’s not exactly "…most articles written by feministsI

    You didn’t ask for most of the articles and it isn’t reasonable to expect someone to provide you 50-100 links.

    If you have a genuine disagreement with what they provided you should present that, but as it stands you’re being terribly dishonest and disingenuous.

    TSG_Asmodeus, (edited )
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    You got a response that gave you some examples, and you respond:

    What examples? The guy said look on twitter on National Men’s Day, and a reference to an article (without linking to it) for a hand sweeping ‘Most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.’

    (EDIT: To be specific, here’s EXACTLY what I said:

    Does anyone have a link to any of these? )

    No-one here has linked to any deluge of ‘feminist’ articles that ‘love to stereotype and bash men’.

    What is the actual, legitimate complaint against this:

    Feminism is a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes.

    bostonbananarama, (edited )

    What examples?

    The ones you were given.

    The guy said look on twitter on National Men’s Day,

    No, they didn’t. They told you to look at a specific account on a specific day.

    and a reference to an article (without linking to it) for a hand sweeping ‘Most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.’

    Yes, which you could have easily googled if you wanted to read it.

    Regardless you asked for examples, and then upon receiving them stated “that’s most?”. No amount of examples was going to be sufficient, your response would have been the same regardless. Your original question was dishonest in that you weren’t interested in the answer.

    Edit: As for your definition, I don’t think anyone opposed that definition. Feminism is a large banner under which a lot of groups identify. So your extremely generic definition doesn’t encapsulate all persons or groups.

    TSG_Asmodeus,
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    No, they didn’t. They told you to look at a specific account on a specific day.

    Not the OP, and still not any links. ‘Go take a look at the UN’s Twitter account on National Men’s day.’ isn’t an article written by a feminist. ‘Or I remember articles about how 1 in 4 homeless are women and it’s a tragedy for women.’ that’s both not a link, and doesn’t ‘stereotype and bash men.’

    Still waiting for a link of an ‘article written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.’ Feel free to post one.

    bostonbananarama,

    OP had mentioned feminists being bad at PR and then mentioned negative articles.

    They supported that with the Twitter content being bad PR and an article they remembered seeing. OP also responded to you saying that they didn’t maintain a log of all feminism articles they had read. Apparently you expected them to source links to all the articles they’ve read in the past.

    No one’s going to do that, if they do supply links it would only be one or two, at which point you’d have made your “that’s most” comment, which was the whole point. You’re a dishonest interlocutor.

    TSG_Asmodeus,
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    OP had mentioned feminists being bad at PR and then mentioned negative articles.

    Not ‘negative articles’, he said ‘most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men’ (emphasis mine.)

    and an article they remembered seeing

    Again not an, most. That is dishonest and disingenuous. Either ‘you’re’ looking specifically for feminist articles negative towards men, or ‘you’re’ being dishonest.

    Caitlin Moran even wrote a damn novel on issues and challenges facing straight, white, able-bodied men that need to be solved. If feminist PR sucks, you’re reading right-wing articles/twitter posts/apparently reddit posts according to another post of theirs.

    (I put ‘you’re’ like that because it’s a royal ‘all of us/you’ and also you’re responding to me within minutes of him, so it feels like the same person I’m responding to.)

    bostonbananarama,

    Not ‘negative articles’, he said 'most articles

    Yes, the articles were negative in their views.

    Again not an, most. That is dishonest and disingenuous. Either ‘you’re’ looking specifically for feminist articles negative towards men, or ‘you’re’ being dishonest.

    At this point you’re (2nd person, singular) either stupid or spectacularly dishonest. You keep referencing most, so apparently he needed to cite, with links, 50.1% of all articles by feminists or you’d bring your same criticism. Guess what, “most” could be true and he could only cite a single article. They are not mutually exclusive. (I’ve never accepted or rejected the most claim). Maybe the majority actually are negative, maybe he’s only read three articles by feminists and at least two were negative, maybe he only reads negative articles, and yet you still attack most. Rather dishonest.

    Caitlin Moran even wrote a damn novel on issues and challenges facing straight, white, able-bodied men that need to be solved.

    Umm…and? One person wrote a novel? A novel isn’t an article and one isn’t most! Obviously OP is right because you didn’t even give links to most articles. See how easy it is to be a dishonest interlocutor and not meet people where they’re at?

    If feminist PR sucks, you’re reading right-wing articles/twitter posts/apparently reddit posts according to another post of theirs.

    That actually doesn’t follow at all. Feminist PR could suck and none of those things be true. Mainstream media, like “most” media, likes to present items that will drive clicks and viewership. People with preposterous views have an easier time getting traction because their comments will drive interaction. So the majority of feminists could be levelheaded and pragmatic, but the minority with outlandish takes on issues will likely get more press attention.

    TSG_Asmodeus,
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes, the articles were negative in their views.

    We’re on day two of not a single link from him or you. I’m done with this, if you want to keep screaming to the winds that ‘most feminist articles are…’ then prove it.

    Turun, (edited )

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

    Especially the history section will be relevant to you.

    When people complain about feminism they generally complain about forth wave or maybe third wave feminism. When people point out all the good feminism they usually mean first and second wave feminism.

    Edit: chances are you’ll have to watch with subtitles (it’s in German), but here’s a documentary (with commentary, because the documentary fucked up hard in some parts) about feminism: youtube.com/watch?v=I-OFCy-NrU4

    And here is an interview with one of the subjects of the documentary who felt wrongly presented (rightfully so): m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvPExRR_GRg

    bedrooms,

    Well, the problem is that nobody collects history of feminism articles they have read. I'm not gonna spend time on collecting them. Even if I did, you don't know how fair my collection strategy would be. I have no idea what Google query would reproduce the samples the average person encounters these things online. So, to do this fairly requires a dedication akin to writing a scientific article on this topic... Nobody has the time.

    And if I presented such a survey, you'd do your own research to verify the results anyway. So, I hate to say this, but why not check the web yourself?

    If you don't, I think the most feasible you could try is to summarize people's replies.

    TSG_Asmodeus,
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    Well, the problem is that nobody collects history of feminism articles they have read.

    Apparently you don’t have to, because ‘Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.’ So go find some of these articles.

    It’s not my job to verify your insulting, reductive, broad-sweeping claims. Feminists have fought for equality for both men and women, this is a fact. The missive is “… a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes.[a][2][3][4][5] Feminism holds the position that societies prioritize the male point of view and that women are treated unjustly in these societies.[6] Efforts to change this include fighting against gender stereotypes and improving educational, professional, and interpersonal opportunities and outcomes for women.”

    How we go from that to ‘most articles just stereotype and bash men’? You don’t get to make a claim like ’ most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men’ and then literally provide zero examples. This is just Hasty Generalization and it’s depressing to watch another man do this in a thread about the sudden decline in men agreeing that gender equality-seeking is somehow ‘stereotyping and bashing men.’

    bedrooms,

    I agree with you on what it is, though. The problem, if the problem exists as I wrote, is the PR.

    PR is different from what feminism is.

    I guess what I wrote is too nuanced to understand in the first sight. I advice you to temporarily assume I'm correct, so that you can calm down and see what I really mean here.

    TSG_Asmodeus,
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    The problem, if the problem exists as I wrote, is the PR. … I guess what I wrote is too nuanced to understand in the first sight

    Not really, you said:

    I never had the impression that feminists are good at PR. Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.

    And, to this point, still haven’t posted a single one.

    To quote a philosopher from my youth:

    If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.

    bedrooms,

    I agree with you on what it is, though.

    Can you explain to me how you interpret this one, then? I'm pretty sure it's just misunderstanding.

    TSG_Asmodeus,
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t agree with you, because you said the ‘issue with feminisms PR’ is posts on twitter, reddit, and ‘most articles I read’. You didn’t respond with any of the articles, and people say all sorts of things on twitter and reddit. They don’t encompass the entirety of a group like people who want gender equality.

    Here’s an example of how feminism helps boys and girls, and the positive impacts of it.

    That’s two articles I’ve posted here, feel free to post your myriad misandrist feminist articles.

    bedrooms, (edited )

    I mean, how many URLs do you want from me?

    Edit: you ignored my question btw...

    Edit 2: You don't understand my point. The only thing I can do is to tell you to read my past comments carefully at this stage.

    TSG_Asmodeus,
    @TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

    I mean, how many URLs do you want from me?

    I mean, one? You’ve literally posted zero. In the time it took you to reply to me a half dozen times you could go look up articles you vaguely remember that are ‘… written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men’, take some, and then post them.

    The only thing I can do is to tell you to read my past comments carefully at this stage.

    Or (see above)

    bedrooms,

    I think you misunderstood what I mean by "most articles". I mean the articles that reached me. That's different from the articles that's online.

    If you just want one, there was already someone who posted two for you. Can you explain to me the point of me adding one?

    queermunist,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    Y’all know it’s incels, right?

    Deceptichum,
    Deceptichum avatar

    From what I read of the polls, Im strongly inclined that its religion based not incels.

    djsoren19,

    I’d like to warn all the Americans against generalizing based upon their personal experiences or beliefs here. This is a UK study that sampled a UK population. These results can’t necessarily be generalized to any other country, this is focused on the UK culture.

    rustydomino,
    @rustydomino@lemmy.world avatar

    There was a recent story on NPR that addressed this. I can’t find it now but basically it said that all these studies in isolation have issues but now there appears to be a trend that transcends national boundaries and cultures.

    gAlienLifeform,
    @gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t know about the NPR one, but Business Insider and the Financial Times had articles recently pulling together a bunch of surveys finding similar trends in the US and around the world respectively

    sagrotan,
    @sagrotan@lemmy.world avatar

    Who’s that “Poll”? I wanna kick her in the pussy…

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