What I don’t understand about the ruling is that congress has already exercised their power. Donald Trump was impeached by congress in 2021 for inciting an insurrection. The states are only enforcing the law based on the ruling a of the House of Representatives and a majority of the Senate.
Removal from office takes a supermajority in the Senate, so maybe disqualification via the 14th does as well. That would presumably depend on Senate rules that currently don’t cover it.
A simple majority ought to be sufficient, but it also ought to be sufficient for just about everything, but it’s not.
14th didn’t say it’s up to Congress either. The Supreme Court said that, and now it’s up to Congress to decide what that looks like. The constitution lets the legislative bodies setup their own rules for how a lot of things function.
I’m not sure I even disagree with the idea that it needs to be done at the Federal level. If individual states can do it, then Republicans will start declaring that everything they don’t like is an insurrection (as their rhetoric already does on many issues) and remove Democrats from ballots.
Whether that means it has to be the legislature and what that looks like are different questions.
This was actually a 9-0 decision. Being a cynic is definitely justified by the state of our government, but you should have some ideas what your being cynical about.
Nothing here says that one party gets to define anything. Also, the court did not say that the Senate must agree by a 2/3 majority, only that Congress must decide. The text of the constitution does clearly make section 3 self executing but, unhelpfully, it does not tell us who determines that an insurrection occurred or whether a particular person is guilty of participation.
It clouds the issue even further that the previous vote failed in the Senate, but would have passed by a simple majority. It could well be that some who voted in favor of impeachment might have voted otherwise if a simple majority were required. I think a simple majority should be sufficient in this case, but that vote never occurred.
Personally, I’m not sure it would be a good thing to remove Trump from the ballot. I think it will be far better for the nation to defeat him at the ballot box. If Trump can actually win, then we are doomed anyways.
Trump is uniquely bad as a human being, but he is not uniquely bad as a potential Republican president. There are plenty of Republicans that would be worse, simply because they are competent and, for many milquetoast Americans, far more persuasive.
I am specifically talking about the current situation. It’s no good to defeat Trump if we don’t also defeat Trumpism.
Judicial review is always about policymaking. That is frankly a massive subject. Where the constitution and/or legislation is unclear, yes, it typically falls to the courts to interpret. However, that’s not even terribly relevant here, since what the court did is throw it to Congress to make the policy decision.
No it just keeps me from having to retype the same thing over and over. And of course it’s from an opinion piece just as the supreme Court judges statement is an opinion piece
No it just keeps me from having to retype the same thing over and over.
So anyone who wants to know where it comes from has to type it to do a search. Yeah, that’s not being an asshole at all. If your that lazy, just paste in a damn hyperlink.
This is wild because Obama got his nom yanked because Mitch said “the institutions shouldn’t do their jobs; let the American people decide if he should be able to nominate a judge!”
You dont saturate the airwaves with radical fascist conspiracist bullshit and then give the listeners and fans the reins to government
What does this have to do with the topic we are discussing? Yeah, that was complete bullshit. If the argument is that the Supreme Court is illegitimate, then I’m with you. However, this particular ruling probably wouldn’t be impacted by a change in the makeup of the court since, as I pointed out, it was a 9-0 ruling. Replace all three of Trump’s nominees with judges that agree with you, and you still lose 6-3.
Personally I think Biden should have stuffed the court with one judge for each Federal district (13). Even if he did that, and all the new judges took your perspective, you still lose 9-4.
The Constitution says what it says. If I lost 6-3 it doesnt change the fact that they decided that the Constitution does not say what it says, and is not the law of the land. We can easily speculate why they ruled that way based on exactly what we know about their corruption. They rejected the Constitution; this is not debateable.
It’s the constitution, not Webster’s dictionary. It is not the Constitution’s job to define every single word that is within the Constitution. Participating in an insurrection is participating in an insurrection, which is what happened on January 6th. The Constitution clearly states that anyone who does such is ineligible to hold office again. This is not complicated at all. What is happening is a slow coup
Read your argument above then read this response again. You are arguing that the court is overriding what the constitution says, then arguing that it doesn’t matter that the constitution says nothing on the subject. Your mind is a really weird place.
That is the worst case of obtuse misreading ever. The Constitution is very clear on this. The SCOTUS is ignoring it and making up conditions that DO NOT EXIST.
According to your very own interpretation with this question there is no such thing as a crime because every time a crime is committed someone has to step in and define what a crime is. We can’t say a victim was murdered because there’s no one to determine what a murder is. Fraud and larceny cannot possibly be crimes because the Constitution nor the Senate have appointed someone to define what larceny and fraud is.
Do you not see how psychotic resorting to such ridiculous semantics are?
Why is everyone so desperate to back up the SCOTUS claim that ‘there is no law, therefore there can be no disorder’?
It’s not even a “dogs can’t play basketball!” ruling; it’s a “there are no dogs” ruling.
Are you really not aware that one of the primary jobs of Congress is to literally define what a crime is? That’s what laws are. There is literally a statute (several actually) passed by Congress that does define what murder, fraud, and larceny are. That’s the cornerstone of due process. A crime isn’t a crime unless there is a law being broken. You have failed your constitution test.
What the fuck are you on about now? This has nothing to do with prosecuting Trump and his conspirators. You seem to have me pigeonholed as a Trump supporter or something. I’m commenting on a single ruling on a subject that is just as likely to damage Biden as Trump.
Republicans say Biden is guilty of insurrection for allowing illegal aliens across the border, and will happily remove him from every ballot they can because of it. It’s absolute bullshit of course, but Republicans aren’t shy about passing bullshit or ruling based on bullshit. If that shit show sounds great to you, then you go ahead and override the court and send it to the states.
Yeah, I just cant wait to see what happens when everyone keeps taking down the roadblocks to fascism and then gets all surprised when they get a fascist government installed which can never be removed, so yeah, okay, you win: the SCOTUS was protecting Biden.
And this folks, is why voting in November is IMPERATIVE. Don’t listen to the right-wing propaganda-spreading accounts here that post all day about how you should not vote because both parties are bad for America.
They KNOW you’re not voting for Trump and they KNOW you cannot be persuaded to- so the next best thing is for them to bullshit you into not voting at all- which in the end- will still help Trump win America.
If you think conservatives judges denying us our right to ban a “man” from running because of an attempted overthrowing of our government- denying us AFTER we went through due process to arrive at a legal decision to-
Just wait until the someone even worse than them has the authority to pass laws.
It’s worth doing more than voting. If you’re able, sign up to volunteer and donate. Adopt a close congressional race too; fairly modest travel can get a lot of people to a swing district for the day.
It means picking a swing district near you, and then supporting the Democrat with volunteer time and (if you can afford it) money and recruiting others to join you.
I just got run out of hexbear because I believe voting for Biden, while shitty, is a form of harm reduction. I got called a genocide supporter and a fascist followed by hours of threats and wishes of harm, including my favorite. An emoji of a location where Nazis were executed by partisans in Yugoslavia.
I’m new to lemmy so just kinda assumed it was a leftist space. I didn’t realize that it’s just red tented Nazis with no actual love for their fellow human beings. Something I consider necessary to being a socialist in any form. That sucked.
I always see reports of this behavior from hexbear, but I’ve never been subjected to it, even when disagreeing with the user base there. Though,I am wondering if they just blocked me because I haven’t seen any of their posts in a while, now that I think about it.
I made a snarky comment on a post from a Hexbear Truth-Teller once. The OP replied to me after a few days and thought it was important that I knew they couldn’t see my post from the Hexbear server.
Uh sorry guy, not my concern really since it seems your server is the one blocking me.
I don’t really understand hexbear. They are leftists that are so left they are Nazis?
I get it, I don’t like voting for Biden, but we live in a two party system where we have to vote for the least evil one.
And despite myself, Biden has passed some of the most progressive legislation ever (at least my lefty podcasts tell me that) So while he was glacially, immorally, slow to call for a ceasefire in Gaza, he has done it and his policies are inarguably more moral than Trumps were and likely will be, should trump win.
Many of the revolutionaries replaced even more brutal governments but realistically its only ever been where people were fully denied rights that revolutions were successful. Example: its well understood that the british empire ended slavery after a series of slave revolts. Cubans also had less rights than vacationing american mobsters under batista.
Often more developed countries get better mechanisms to resolve disputes: elections, courts, regulations, insurance, strikes, etc.
Oh I agree, I abhor violence and it is my sincere wish that no human anywhere perished in such ways. But I am not a naive enough fool to believe that meaningful change is always bloodless.
Personally I think it will be the coming food riots that really kick things into high gear. And its going to happen sooner than people realize.
And yet he was overwhelmingly the favorite pick for Black voters in the 2020 primary.
People change. Context matters – some of those bills were even supported by black community leaders. It obviously didn’t turn out well.
Plus, it matters to some people that he was happily VP under Obama. I personally don’t get it, but to some people being #2 to a black person at #1 meant something.
They are leftists that are so left they are Nazis?
Tankies are not really leftists. They are conservatives who call themselves leftists. They are engaging in modern propaganda.
One of the standard tactics of fascists is to sew chaos and confusion among any who may resist. A tankie’s primary goal is to create confusion and demotivate progressives.
Not everyone falls for it, but some tankies can be pretty convincing that they really believe their nonsense. Do not be fooled. Tankies are absolutely lying. They are pro-level trolls with a deadly serious goal.
Tankies are not really leftists. They are conservatives who call themselves leftists. They are engaging in modern propaganda.
I wish more people realized this. They are bad faith actors who exist solely to disrupt and recruit. What I find particularly reprehensible about the Hexbear playbook is they appeal to the most disenfranchised part of the LGBTQ+ community and take advantage of their rage by giving them a target…not coincidentally, the same way the public face of the right wing panders to rural white men. Hexbear is queer-friendly and does offer a safe space, but they don’t actually discuss, much fight for the rights of the queer community in any way. They give them anti-west talking points, wind them up, and send them out into the world, but they don’t actually give a shit about their recruits’ queer existence; they’re just a tool to be used. It just sucks to see, for a number of reasons.
Wow. I was completely unaware of Hexbear’s specific flavor of manipulation. Thank you for spelling that out. That is both heart-breaking and frightening.
It also explains some of the bizarre conversations I’ve had with certain tankies. I’m usually not kind to them, but I think I can be both more sensitive and more persuasive with certain LGBTQ+ tankies now that I know some of them may actually be victims of manipulation. So, again, thank you.
Unfortunately, Lemmy.ml and a few other still-federated instances are currently infected with tankie mods. Some are a bit covert about it, banning people for clever little twists like “minimizing genocide” if the user calls any current military action a genocide.
Conservatism, including fake progressives like tankies, are a cancer that are long overdue for a cure.
This is their classic pincer maneuver employed by the establishment - and it works really well: the left wing candidate is both too left and not left enough.
You see it in every election.
It works so well because they own mainstream media so they can run all narratives at the same time as opinion pieces to hamstrung the left. That’s how the ratchet works also.
That’s why it bears repeating that if you don’t vote for Biden in the General Election, YOU ARE HELPING TRUMP. No “genocide Joe” arguments matter at that point no matter how much you twist your logic, no matter how you WISH things worked with the US general election. These are simple FACTS.
It also works because, simply put, those of us not on the Right have a tendency to disagree with one another on what to support. Now I’m not saying this doesn’t happen in general. Only that we’ll do it even to the point of detriment as we recognize situations and cases we feel need to be supported, instead of just what needs to be attacked, and those can vary widely.
My biggest and most consistent concern every election is whether we can come together in consensus long enough to make a difference. My second concern is whether we can hold that energy long enough to continue pushing for positive change.
I mean you are right, but hopefully we learnt our lesson when we got the current supreme court because Hillary was not pure like Sanders.
So long as we keep in mind that their goal is to split the working class in manageable little pieces we can put our differences aside to come together to at least stop the slide and hopefully take a few steps in the right direction.
So what happens if the states continue to keep him off the ballot? Does the federal government take over their elections, or do they refuse to recognize the electors?
The supreme clowns are giving an opinion and states are already starting to ignore their opinions. What happens if the states ignore this and say their state rights exceed here?
What a mystery! Who knows what happens when States try and assert their “State’s Rights” to ignore the federal government, it’s never happened ever in American history, thank you for asking such a deep and intellectually thought-out question!
The bigger news isn’t that he’s back on the ballot, but the 5-4 split within the unanimous ruling.
They unanimously agreed that a state Court can’t ban someone from election to a federal office based on federal rules. There’s something to be said for that, which is why the liberal justices were all on board with it.
The 5-4 split with the separate opinions, however, was Thomas, Alito, Robert’s, Kavanaugh, and Gorsuch saying that federal courts also can’t ban someone from holding office for insurrection even if convicted of the crime in a federal court.
They’re setting up Trump to be eligible to be elected President even if he loses the insurrection trial prior to the election. They’re saying only Congress can ban him from office for insurrection.
The liberal justices wrote a heated rebuke of that in their concurring opinion, and Barrett sided with the liberals, but scolded the liberals for being too mean about it in her standalone concurring opinion.
“It’s not for us to decide. It’s up to the Republican controlled Congress to decide to allow Trump and any other Republican candidate and not allow Democrat candidates the same luxury.”
I leave it to legal minds better versed in this but it was a unanimous decision and its not devoid of sense that States (some of whom consistently elect bad-faith actors who are a threat to civil society) should not be able to mix-match disqualify candidates, but rather that a federal mechanism for enforcement needs to be legislated by Congress.
They have literally provided a roadmap to disqualify Trump/future ilk that they cannot turn around and deny when it comes back to them to adjudicate on eventually. The law is iterative so its for the best. In any case, he’s gonna lose his state criminal trials so they’ll finally be able to put him away or dispose of him. Even Barrett was bitching about giving too much of the plot away
I mean, the whole argument hinges on the fact that the procedures around Section 3 are ambiguous, but clearly since states haven’t tried to do it themselves before, that means they obviously don’t have the authority. So, the precedent exists not because it has actually been set, but because it can be inferred to exist by the fact that it hasn’t been set.
May as well have signed it in crayon, too. OH WAIT THEY DIDN’T SIGN IT
It doesn’t really make any sense, the SCOTUS expects congress to vote on enforcing laws that they passed 150 years ago every time the issue comes up? Why? They already voted.
Many of there recent ruling use that logic, like the epa one that says the must be hyper specific. Ending the ablity of the government to functio is the core goal of republican party.
What happened to upholding the constitution? He is literally barred from office for his crimes, and his legal defence was that he did those crimes but it shouldn’t disbar him (even though it very clearly does).
It’s so wild that the ‘but the people have democratic rights to choose among candidates’ crowd invoke that argument to make the candidate that’s promised to end democracy and rights one of the options they can vote for
And also, he never won on the people’s democratic right to choose among candidates. Hillary did. He won because the president is chosen by the states, not the people. Don’t like it? Abolish the electoral college.
Abolish electoral college is not the answer to these issues. Unless you have a new idea in mind. Electoral college is better than using popular vote. It helps prevent fraud from any one particular state.
I was mostly curious those that want to abolish it what their alternative solution is.
Under popular vote, DeSantis is still running and maybe now he gets 63 billion votes from Florida alone. The impact of this fraud (there are not 63 billion ppl voting in Florida) is bigger with no electoral college.
Other countries don’t have EC bc other counties don’t have our state and government structure.
Also it occurs to me that there are other factors that disqualify candidates from being president- the bit about being 35 or older means AOC can’t be president right now and the bit about being a natural-born citizen disqualifies Schwarzenegger and isn’t it interesting that the court hasn’t taken up the issue on how that denies voters their democratic rights? I mean, when you want to understand how to apply the constitution as it pertains to who may not serve in office, don’t you want to consider all the disqualifiers and their mechanisms?
If you’re under 35 or foreign-born, it doesn’t take an act of congress to bar you from office, those things are the law and already in the constitution with plain wording. A plain reading of sec 3 of the 14th amendment basically reads as if the authors of the amendment intended it to take an act of congress (with 2/3rds majorities, in both houses) to allow an insurrectionist that previously took an oath of office to serve again, but the court magically inverted that by asserting the only congress could invoke section 3
Nope, this is the court bending over backwards to deliver a political outcome
The section specifically says congress can allow someone to hold office with a 2/3rds vote. How does it make any sense that it also takes specific congressional action to disqualify someone? A simple majority could stop that.
They even noted on a footnote a case where a 2/3rds majority voted to seat a former confederate. Yet they didn’t bother to outline how he was disqualified to start with. It wasn’t congressional action.
And they exceed legal thoughts as the suppose there needs to be uniformity so the president is president for all. History is filled with candidates that didn’t appear on the ballot is some states. Lincoln wasn’t on the ballot in some southern states. Like it or not, that is how it works.
And while the majority was rightfully chided for going beyond the question presented, shame on the liberals for ruling to protect their federal power rather than protecting the integrity of elections. I hated the oral arguments where they were all saying it “feels” like a federal question. If you want it to be a federal question, amend the constitution so the feds are in charge of elections. Until then, states have the right to decide who is on their ballot.
States should still have full power to tell their own electors who they can and can’t vote for, congress deliberately can’t control that and SCOTUS can’t tell them what rules to use. Ballot access don’t matter if votes for the traitor are void by default.
What about a motion in congress to exempt Donald Trump under the 14th amendment? If it failed to get 2/3 approval would that defacto mean he is barred from office?
Sorry if that’s a dumb question, I’m not American.
That’s exactly it though - if the court said state judges can enforce laws keeping people off ballots, then you’d have fascists using the courts to secure and entrench power by keeping democrats off the ballot. There’s all sorts of zealots on the state courts, if the Supreme Court said this was legal I have no doubt that at least the AL supreme court would quickly find that Biden is guilty of insurrection against god or something and knock him off the ballot there.
Something as big as keeping a presidential candidate off the ballot can’t be up to the states, because there’s a lot of crazy state governments.
So because we have shit states who race to the bottom means we can’t have states control their elections? Ruling by the lowest common denominator is a a recipe for garbage.
We just had a president calling up state leaders to try and reject the winner of the election.
No one took him up on it, primarily because there was no legal basis to do so.
If a state can remove a nominee before the election even starts, that would NOT be good for us. We’ve seen time and time again how political factions will use any leeway they have to solidify power.
The difference is that this isnt a whim…he is legit a criminal traitor who engaged in insurrection and is disqualified by the Constitution. States’ rights have nothing to do with any of this.
Ideally you’d just challenge a ruling like that and have it thrown out for being meritless and the judge who made it sanctioned. But the supreme court has ruled that judges have absolute immunity for their actions no matter how corrupt, so the best you can do is vote them out of office and then do nothing to them like we’re doing here.
The justice system is more concerned with protecting itself than justice and it’s the supreme court that’s been heading that boat for the last 200 years.
Still that doesn’t make their argument not stupid as hell. They have chances to fix it here and just refuse to admit that there’s a problem.
Add comment