California parents oust school board members who enacted anti-LGBTQ+ policy

Two members of the Orange Unified School District board have been removed by parents who opposed a policy requiring school staff to out transgender kids.

Parents in Southern California have voted to remove two conservative school board members after they spearheaded a policy that forcibly outs transgender students to their guardians.

Members of the Orange Unified School District board voted 4-0 to enact the policy in September. It was passed at 11:30 p.m., after the three opposed members walked out and withheld their votes.

The policy states that parents must be notified when a student seeks “to be identified as a gender other than the student’s biological sex or gender listed on the student’s birth certificate or any other official records.” This includes names, nicknames, and pronouns, and applies even if the student hasn’t taken action but has discussed the matter with a counselor.

…

At the initial meeting in September, the board was overwhelmed by crowds who showed up to either protest or support the policy. However, the majority of the attendees voicing support did not have children in the district’s schools, and most were not residents of the area, according to the Times.

dejected_warp_core,

TL;DR: grownups tried to bully all the “not normal” kids in one go, forever. They’re lucky this push-back is so civil. Here’s a take on why this theme looks familiar: it’s patriarchy.

When you have negative politicized action to reinforce “traditional” gender roles, it’s always in defense of a hierarchy, with hetero men on top (“patriarchy”)*. Embracing equality pushes the social norm towards treating people like people, regardless of gender, eradicating the social barriers and roles in that hierarchy. This effectively tears down a whole kind of class stratification and the power structure that comes from it. It doesn’t scare people; it directly threatens their power and feels like a personal attack, which fuels all the moral licensing needed to be deviously underhanded in retaliation.

IMO, we should quit being surprised and outraged, and instead just expect that some knuckle-draggers are going to show up to try and ruin a good thing. Because as long as someone is invested in punching down on others, it’s possible that they’ll punch all the way to some position of authority if nobody stops them.

(* I have yet to witness a conservative regressive matriarchy, but I’m sure they exist somewhere.)

Mastengwe,

Imagine being such a coward that one’s gender scares you into making oppressive rules.

shalafi,

!Manos -61 points 11 hours ago

Tried stating a reasonable opinion with questions, got buried so hard I can’t respond to the comment without it getting buried and disappearing. Civil discourse anyone? Or is civility only for people you mostly agree with? LOL, this post is blocked so hard I can’t even read the replies without them disappearing. I can’t even tell what OP said that was out-of-bounds.

This is how we create rightwing nuts. Take a person’s reasonable post, beat the shit out of them for some much as having a question, pondering the pros and cons. Nope. Straight to jail.

Put yourself in OP’s shoes. “Fuck me. I just said what I felt as a parent, how I might react. And I get hit with a wall of hate and bans?!” How do you think lemmy swayed OP’s opinion? Discuss. (You’ll get banned or blocked if you do, but grow a pair, state your case.)

I honestly don’t know how I feel about this. If my kid (which I do have one) was trying to pass as another gender in school, but not home, I would want to know. It’s generally not good for kids to keep big secrets like this from the people looking out for them. That’s how they end up getting in to trouble in life.

Yeah, I’d want to know if my child was hiding something so utterly life changing. I hope my kids trust me, but coming out as trans is about as big as it gets.

At the same time, I’m not the kind of parent that wouldn’t support my kid through such an issue. I understand it could be dangerous for some kids to be outted to their parents, but I don’t know that we should be governing based on the worst possible outcomes, when keeping the secret could also be dangerous to some.

Yep, sucks either way. And either way, people may be hurt.

It is telling to me that most of the supporters that showed up had no skin in the game. I don’t think this specific issue is as cut-and-dry as it appears at first. My mind has certainly changed on it the more I think about it.

About that. How would y’all feel if we flipped it? A conservative or liberal mob from out-of-town trying to influence your child’s school board? (Which partly happened here!)

psud,

You don’t need to do this. The original comment is still there, as are the arguments. The only things the mods have removed are insults, the civil replies are all there

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Tried stating a reasonable opinion with questions

Outing vulnerable children to people who will torture them for it is not reasonable and fuck you for proffering it is.

jkrtn,

I’m sure you would want to know. So you can either: 1. create an environment for the child so they feel safe talking about it with you or 2. force everyone working at a school to out children who aren’t ready with potentially hostile audiences just in case your child isn’t comfortable discussing with you. Option 2. is pretty enticing, I guess, zero effort and all the benefit.

I think it is pretty clear where the downvotes are from. The position is basically, “it doesn’t matter if another kid gets hurt, that won’t happen to mine, and I’d want to know.” In terms of setting policy I’d like school districts to instead consider what’s best for the vast majority of (ideally all) children.

shalafi,

!Manos -61 points 11 hours ago

Tried stating a reasonable opinion with questions, got buried so hard I can’t respond to the comment without it getting buried and disappearing. Civil discourse anyone? Or is civility only for people you mostly agree with? LOL, this post is blocked so hard I can’t even read the replies without them disappearing. I can’t even tell what OP said that was out-of-bounds.

This is how we create rightwing nuts. Take a person’s reasonable post, beat the shit out of them for some much as having a question, pondering the pros and cons. Nope. Straight to jail.

Put yourself in OP’s shoes. “Fuck me. I just said what I felt as a parent, how I might react. And I get hit with a wall of hate and bans?!” How do you think lemmy swayed OP’s opinion? Discuss. (You’ll get banned or blocked if you do, but grow a pair, state your case.)

I honestly don’t know how I feel about this. If my kid (which I do have one) was trying to pass as another gender in school, but not home, I would want to know. It’s generally not good for kids to keep big secrets like this from the people looking out for them. That’s how they end up getting in to trouble in life.

Yeah, I’d want to know if my child was hiding something so utterly life changing. I hope my kids trust me, but coming out as trans is about as big as it gets.

At the same time, I’m not the kind of parent that wouldn’t support my kid through such an issue. I understand it could be dangerous for some kids to be outted to their parents, but I don’t know that we should be governing based on the worst possible outcomes, when keeping the secret could also be dangerous to some.

Yep, sucks either way. And either way, people may be hurt.

It is telling to me that most of the supporters that showed up had no skin in the game. I don’t think this specific issue is as cut-and-dry as it appears at first. My mind has certainly changed on it the more I think about it.

About that. How would y’all feel if we flipped it? A conservative or liberal mob from out-of-town trying to influence your child’s school board? (Which partly happened here!)

RatBin,

the majority of the attendees voicing support did not have children in the district’s schools, and most were not residents of the area, according to the Times.

As they’re fighting culture wars at other people’s expenses, on the behalf of their political side, which will not care nor protect them as they think. In which word is it acceptable that a complete stranger has a say in an institution in which they won’t ever take part in?

tigeruppercut,

I feel like a lot of these situations could be mitigated by only allowing people with children in the school to attend, or at least only people who live in the district. It would at least keep those astroturfed groups out, like moms for fascism and the like

andxz,

Please tell me “moms for fascism” isn’t a real thing.

tigeruppercut,

close enough

andxz,

I don’t even know why I asked, of course it exists.

Fedizen,

US policing is like this too. we could greatly improve police results by instituting local civilian boards to oversee police conduct and require police live in the areas they patrol.

mycathas9lives,

Everybody should drink a couple of glasses of water and mind their own business.

kent_eh, (edited )

Remember, people, being informed about who is running for even the lowest level elected positions is very important.

Those positions often have the most day-to- day impact on your individual life, and they are typically the least voted for races.

Kalysta,

And yet, local media has become such shit that it’s impossible to research the positions of many local candidates.

reddig33,

League of women’s voters website is usually a good resource. They send each candidate a questionnaire and publish what they get back.

robocall, (edited )
@robocall@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve emailed local candidates and asked them how they voted on other elections (like who did you vote for president or in the primaries). They’ve responded. I have had some respond very vague, which I interpret as a bad sign, and others were very clear.

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

If they don’t want to say, they either voted Republican or are afraid to be transparent (or both). Either way, they need to be voted out.

shalafi,

You might be shocked at how accessible local politicians can be. It astonishingly easy to get into local politics.

Show up, introduce yourself, shake hands, rinse and repeat. You’ll soon get to know who’s who and how the tides are moving. You’ll see who has influence, and why, learn from there.

LOL, you got me thinking about jumping back in. Locally, some people got together to fight an initiative we didn’t like. Nobody powerful or monied, but they won.

kent_eh,

During the last elections here, the media sent out questionnaires to all of the school board candidates and half of them didn’t bother to respond.

The local subreddit crowdsourced background info on all the candidates and helped identify several of the wingnut wannabe authoritarians.

.

Though one did manage to get elected and almost immediately got suspended for acting like the racist she is during the meetings, and then freaking out when called out for her behaviour.

Lianodel,

That happened with my local library system. We had a dipshit conservative try to ban pride displays. Turns out, even if this is a red county, the people who actually read books and care about public services don’t like that, and now knew to pay attention to local library politics. The hearing about it was packed, and she lost badly the next election.

I admit I didn’t consider voting in library board elections before, but now you bet I’m showing up.

Manos,

I honestly don’t know how I feel about this. If my kid (which I do have one) was trying to pass as another gender in school, but not home, I would want to know. It’s generally not good for kids to keep big secrets like this from the people looking out for them. That’s how they end up getting in to trouble in life.

At the same time, I’m not the kind of parent that wouldn’t support my kid through such an issue. I understand it could be dangerous for some kids to be outted to their parents, but I don’t know that we should be governing based on the worst possible outcomes, when keeping the secret could also be dangerous to some.

It is telling to me that most of the supporters that showed up had no skin in the game. I don’t think this specific issue is as cut-and-dry as it appears at first. My mind has certainly changed on it the more I think about it.

Kalysta,

Many LGBT youth are hiding that fact from their parents because those parents will either throw them out of the house, send them to reeducation camp, or physicallt abuse them for coming out.

This policy is trying to hurt children.

tate,

When kids don’t trust their parents, there’s usually a good reason.

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

Absolutely not. This is a hot take that is not well thought out. At least the way I took your statement is that the parents are the reason the kids are hiding it. I.e. they won’t be accepting or there is some other notion that the parents are responsible for.

First off, kids in high school are constantly battling for their independence. Their autonomy is their goal almost exclusively until things go wrong. A good parent has to watch out from afar and hope they taught their kid well.

Second, the kid could have all sorts of reasons to hiding this. Maybe it was never talked about before. Maybe when it was they didn’t know how to say what they had to say. Kids have a hard time even saying feelings on food choices when they aren’t aware of the vocabulary for those feelings. They just flat out don’t know what they are feeling until they have a meltdown and talk about it.

Third, the parents aren’t always in the way. Kids don’t give parents enough of a chance to rise to the occasion without giving them a chance. Saying they acted this way or that way is not fair and not at all what a good relationship is about. They gotta give their parents a shot to handle it or all of it is speculation.

BreakDecks,

What about a child exploring their gender identity bothers you so much that you feel that intervention should be mandatory? Why do you view being trans as a bad thing by default?

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

Nothing bothers me about that at all. It bothers me when people blame parents for not being close to their kids like it’s always the parent’s fault. Kids are secretive for millions of reasons and reducing it to “they are secretive when there is something wrong with the parent” is not fair at all to them.

jumjummy,

Guess what? Kids exploring gender identities is not some scary dangerous thing, and if you have the right bond with your kids, they will tell you. These “outing” prohibitions are there to protect the kids from parents who have created such an environment at home that the kids don’t feel safe telling them.

Children aren’t some objects that parents own and control.

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

I never insinuated ownership. That’s a jump you made. Kids hold things back for more reasons than the parents. There are plenty of people that do things their parents don’t know about for whatever reasons they justify.

BreakDecks,

That’s no reason to force teachers to share everything they know with parents, especially since this is specifically targeted at kids who explore their gender identity, rather than something harmful that might actually justify alerting parents.

You came in here initially defending a legal mandate that targets vulnerable children, and now you’re defending yourself as if your original point was that parents should be more involved in their children’s lives.

Nobody disagrees with you on the latter, only the original argument you are now trying to deflect from.

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

I never disagreed with any mandates or agreed with them in any shape or fashion. I disagreed with blaming parents for their kids not wanting to tell the parents.

BreakDecks,

So all of the parents who emotionally and physically abuse their their queer children are faultless, and abused children should unconditionally trust their abusers because they’re their parents and must know what’s best?

And now you’ve spent the last 8 hours angrily arguing this in a thread about queerphobic educational mandates, because you have absolutely no opinion about the mandares of which we are all discussing?

C’mon man… You don’t have to die on this very stupid hill. You don’t even have to admit that you are wrong. You can just stop digging this hole.

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not defending anyone that abused anyone. Read the fucking writing. I’m saying that MOST parents aren’t given a chance to even know about every kid. Kids build up these gigantic pillars of fear and don’t even give their parents a chance to respond.

Am I talking about the dicks that bully their kids? No. I’m talking about every day parents that love their kids and are kept out of the dark for the kid’s choice. It happens all the time. Then they grow up and realize all their fears were their own doing.

I have seen it soooooooo many times.

Are there shitty parents that are crappy? Yes. But that is not who I was talking about at all. Read what the fuck I wrote.

BreakDecks,

Going out on limb here, but you sound like you’re venting about your relationship with your own kids. Given your belief that kids don’t deserve privacy, such a lack of trust in you would be entirely deserved.

If this isn’t the situation, it will be someday, if you ever raise a kid without dropping the helicopter parent routine.

mycathas9lives,
@mycathas9lives@mastodon.social avatar

@BreakDecks @GladiusB

Everybody needs to drink fresh water every day and mind their own business, and stay in their own lane, including the kids.

BreakDecks,

including the kids.

Absolutely deranged take in response to this conversation. If anyone needs to mind their own business it’s the transphobic ghouls trying to force teachers to out queer kids to their parents.

And maybe you. Absolutely zero self awareness to butt into a conversation to tell everyone else to mind their business, and add nothing else to the conversation but your own nose.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

First off, kids in high school are constantly battling for their independence. Their autonomy is their goal almost exclusively until things go wrong.

What the hell can go wrong being called "he" in second space?

A good parent has to watch out from afar and hope they taught their kid well.

Sounds like that's on parents to do a better job teaching, not to enlist the state doing a more invasive job at watching.

Maybe it was never talked about before. Maybe when it was they didn’t know how to say what they had to say.

Maybe you should have talked to your kid about all the ways people can be before it could be an issue; possibly enlisting a drag queen to read them a story at a library?
Even if that kid ain't Queer they'd be prepared to be a good friend to any classmates who are.

Third, the parents aren’t always in the way. Kids don’t give parents enough of a chance to rise to the occasion without giving them a chance.

Kids aren't required to give parents "the chance" to not send them to conversion camp to be tortured, asshole.

EldritchFeminity,

Let’s take a step back and look at the mandate in question because the scenario it puts forward is so farcical that I can’t imagine a situation where it’s true.

The idea of a kid being publicly out at school but not at home makes no sense. Kids might be out with their friends, sure, but having the entire school recognize them as a different gender than their parents? The only situation where this mandate would take effect is one where a kid has privately confided in a teacher or counselor, or maybe at a school LGBT group or something. All of which are situations where breaking the kid’s trust and consent are the worst way to go about things. A kid’s consent is just as important as an adults.

In the above scenarios, the way to go about it is encouraging the kids to help them gain the confidence to come out on their own or protect them from transphobic and homophobic parents. Snitching on them won’t help either way.

The only purpose of this mandate is to make trans kids afraid of being outed to transphobic parents. The cruelty is the point.

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

If the mandate is to keep it from abusive parents cool. I approve of this. My original comment had very little to do with the article. It has more to do with the comment that kids hide things from their parents because of their parents. Kids hide things because they don’t want to get caught in some instances. Especially if they are lying. Which is the original comment parent to the comment I replied to.

EldritchFeminity,

If my kid (which I do have one) was trying to pass as another gender in school, but not home, I would want to know.

From the parent comment.

The comment you replied to and the parent comment were both about the mandate in the article, which is why you’ve gotten the pushback that you have. Neither had anything to do with kids lying to hide things other than protecting themselves from transphobic parents. The mandate in the article was expressly created for the purpose of outing kids to transphobic parents, hence the comment about kids not trusting their parents usually for good reason.

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

The parent comment absolutely said they did not know how the felt not knowing if their kid reported to school as transgender and then not to the parent.

EldritchFeminity,

Right, it also said this:

I understand it could be dangerous for some kids to be outted to their parents, but I don’t know that we should be governing based on the worst possible outcomes, when keeping the secret could also be dangerous to some.

To which the comment you replied to said that when kids don’t trust their parents, there’s usually a reason. Which you disagreed with and called a “hot take.”

The whole conversation is about kids lying to their parents about being transgender, in regards to a mandate that forcibly outs them to their parents. We’re not talking about kids lying about drugs and alcohol or something like teenage rebellion, but about kids lying about a fundamental part of who they are. And the most likely reason that they would do so is because telling the truth would be dangerous. There’s no sensible scenario where a kid would be publicly out to the entire school without their parents knowing, so this would be the kind of thing a kid would confide in a counselor or something privately, and if this were a therapist or a doctor the kid was telling, there are literally laws preventing them from telling the kid’s parents without the kid’s permission.

There’s also the fact that the OP is based on a zero sum fallacy in which schools are either telling all parents or telling no parents, and that’s not how things work. Plus, now that I’m looking at that quote, “keeping the secret could also be dangerous to some”?? How could not telling a parent that their kid is trans be dangerous for the kid??

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

I understand the consequences about reporting to some parents. But my original response has nothing to do with the transgender discussion. It has to do with the tone that someone said “We know why they don’t say anything. It’s because the parents can’t be trusted.” Which is extremely damaging. Are there parents that shouldn’t know? Fuck yes. Are there shitty abusive parents that can’t accept their children? Absolutely.

But it’s also dangerous to not give parents a chance in this situations where it’s uncertain. Especially if you haven’t given them a chance. Bring a friend. Say it public where you can go elsewhere to think. I know it’s not easy. I’m not saying there are easy ways all around. I’m saying there are parents that give a shit and it’s dangerous to just assume they don’t care enough to listen.

That is putting their emotional response in place where they aren’t even given a chance.

ripcord,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

I think you’re potentially right in some cases. But the much more LIKELY scenario when a child wouldn’t be out to their parents like this - a pretty rare scenario - would be when there’s a good reason for it. Which I think is the root disagreement here.

Otherwise if the parents and kids are communicating so poorly there’s also something pretty broken in the home.

EldritchFeminity,

Except the person you replied to was specifically talking about trans kids not telling their parents that they’re trans. So you’re arguing against a point that nobody made.

And in cases like that, where a trans or gay kid won’t tell their parents, it’s usually because their parents have made it abundantly clear their entire lives how they feel about LGBT people. There’s plenty of other reasons. Anxiety is completely irrational, for example. But those cases are just a matter of not telling them yet. And that’s a choice for the kid to make, not the school. There’s literally laws preventing pediatricians and therapists from telling parents stuff like that without the kid’s consent. Schools can provide counseling to help kids gain the confidence to do that, but they don’t have the right to forcibly out kids. Kids have just as much a right to privacy as their parents.

More importantly, you’re falling for the same zero sum fallacy as the parent comment, which is the exact intention of this mandate (besides hurting trans kids). They want to remove all nuance from the issue and make your immediate emotional reaction bias your opinion. It’s never an all or nothing situation. Every single day, schools make case by case decisions about how to best take care of the kids there. Some things are best dealt with without, or simply not important enough to bother, getting the parents involved. You probably don’t need to be called and told that Robert asked a teacher to call him Bob instead. And yet, under that mandate? The school would be required to do exactly that.

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

How dare I go on another tangent in a random internet discussion?! The nerve!!

stembolts,

Lotta text to say you don’t create an environment where children feel safe talking to you.

Lemme show you what we see when we read your post.

  1. Kids wanna be autonomous, I expect that they’ll do it wrong and I’ll then enforce my corrections.
  2. I didn’t teach communication to an adequate level with my children so they have meltdowns, I think this is normal.
  3. Kids should give parents more chances. Seriously kids, give me more chances. Another chance please, another chance.

Obviously I’m taking massive liberties with your text, but so are you with every other family that isn’t yours. Doesn’t feel nice does it? That’s one reason why all of your posts are disliked.

redditsuckss,

I mean, is drug use any different?

BreakDecks,

Are you arguing that exploring gender identity is similar to getting addicted to drugs? This is a very stupid take…

redditsuckss,

Not really, but I’m sure biased people like you would think that.

BreakDecks,

What bias are you specifically accusing me of here?

redditsuckss,

Your biased support of the LGBT agenda.

BreakDecks,

lmao, that’s exactly what I fucking thought.

redditsuckss,

Ok?

stembolts, (edited )

Your statement is extremely open-ended so it is impossible to know what you mean by this, so I can only answer generically.

Yes, drug use is different for various reasons.

A granular example is that some drugs, such as cannabis, limit brain development permanently when consumed below a certain age. Other drugs have similar impact. Since this causes measurable damage to a child’s development, it is different.

If there is a connection between a child wanting to keep information about their perception of themselves private from their care giver and the damage caused by some intoxicants I am failing to see it and would appreciate more insight into your rationale.

Finally, unrelated to your reply at all… I am realizing that autonomy itself is seen as harming a child by many parents. Controlling parents are not a new thing, so this is not surprising to me, but I think if we were to boil down opposition to this, in most cases, we would be left with, “I don’t see my child as a potential adult, I see them as a subservient to be controlled.”

The way to raise children to be functioning adults is to offer them the same respect, freedom, and autonomy that they will have when they arrive at adulthood. Does that mean let them do whatever they want? Obviously no. But there does seem to be an astonishingly large population that doesn’t seem to see their own children as being separate from their parents. Differing experiences, views, challenges that the parent has no idea how to deal with, or at worst, is openly hostile towards. Children are the experts on themselves, parents are mentors to guide the way, but many parents seem to treat their children as prisoners and their home as a comfortable prison. A comfortable prison is still a prison, and the prisoner will notice whether it be now or when they are older and start discussing their childhood with friends.

In short, children are far more aware than many give them credit and will develop into that awareness with confidence if guided by gentle mentorship. Or they will grow through the prison floor like a pissed-off dandelion if restrained.

I’m not a writer, open to critique always.

EldritchFeminity, (edited )

Is drug use any different than what? Kids wanting to go by a different name? Or self-harming?

On all 3, being required to tell the parents is a big issue as the parents might be a part of the problem. Plus, requiring staff snitch on kids is a great way to get kids to never tell anybody that they’re having problems and just bottle it up inside until it festers into some kind of breakdown or long-lasting mental health issue. My mom was a guidance counselor for many years, and she had to make plenty of house calls with CPS in tow.

Sometimes, kids need the help or advice of a third-party adult that they trust who isn’t their parents or their friends’ parents. Hell, in my 20s, I was a manager at a fish market, and even I played that role many times. Oftentimes, it was as innocuous as distracting an earnest and loving mom so that she would stop trying to answer questions for her kids during their interview with the boss instead of letting them answer for themselves, or helping them work up the courage to tell their parents something important like that they’re gay. But if I had broken their confidence and told their parents? The kids who asked me for advice on stuff like how to quickly save money so that they could get an apartment when they turned 18 because their mom was kicking them out of the house would’ve never dared come forward with that.

Demanding teachers put the feelings of some parents above the wellbeing of the most vulnerable kids by not letting them use their own judgment to do what’s best for each kid on a case by case basis isn’t the right way to go about this.

GladiusB,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Acting? These are words. Actions are something different. Get a dictionary and read it before trying to sound smart.

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Do you normally ask this of people? Or do you wear a helmet wherever you go?

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m just going to report you. Good luck. You cross too many lines and don’t understand how to properly communicate. I have a different perspective. There are plenty that respect that. You can’t see that line. It might be your own projection.

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    THOSE ARE JUST WORDS THOUGH!

    😂

    damn you’re a stupid piece of shit.

    dustyData, (edited )

    The only one sounding dumb here is you. Someone gives an honest, respectful and transparent appraisal of how your arguments sound in public and this is your reaction. I wouldn’t want to be your kid and if I were I wouldn’t want to talk to you either.

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Kalysta,

    I feel really bad for your children reading your responses here. You sound unhinged.

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Lmao like you know how well adjusted they are. You don’t understand parenting and it’s sad you think you do.

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    you’re the sad piece of shit here, buddy.

    dustyData, (edited )

    Lol, I will tell this story to my mom and she will laugh at you. Then 20 minutes later we won’t even remember that you exist. Just like your kids won’t in 20 years.

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Yea. Sure buddy. ;)

    dustyData,

    I’m not your buddy, pal.

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m not your pal friend!

    Dkarma,

    Your interpretation leads to kids being hurt by their parents.

    GladiusB, (edited )
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    You have zero evidence to support that claim. It is purely anticdotal and not even close to realistic.

    EldritchFeminity,

    Outing trans and gay kids to transphobic and homophobic parents has zero evidence that it causes real harm and puts those kids in danger? I’m gonna need some sources on that. The suicide rates and rates of homelessness among LGBT youth say otherwise.

    BreakDecks,

    There is literally no reason to be this huge of an asshole because your shit argument got debunked. Walking away with your tail tucked would be more dignified than this tantrum you’re throwing.

    You have zero evidence to support that claim.

    Here you go: en.wikipedia.org/…/List_of_people_killed_for_bein…

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    I am not saying that at all. Re read what I wrote. I said that not giving parents a chance is not fair to the parent.

    BreakDecks,

    This isn’t a bad argument in isolation, I’ll give you that much, but in the context of outing queer students to their potentially intolerant and abusive parents, while prohibiting any nuance to actually protect students from abuse (even if the kid tells you) is a horrific idea that will absolutely hurt vulnerable kids. Not trusting teachers to make the right call and punishing them if they try to protect a child from parental abuse isn’t fair to the teachers or the affected students. Fuck your right-wing “parental rights” bullshit, enroll your kid in a private Christian school if you’re so hellbent on repressing them.

    The fact that you are so hung up on gender identity specifically suggests that you understand this fully, hold hatred against queer people, and want to see kids forced into the closet or exposed to abuse by these measures. That you understand the discriminatory intent, and agree with it.

    That you’re such a piece of shit to everyone criticizing you basically confirms it.

    Just go back to Reddit where you belong.

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t hold hatred to anyone. I just don’t allow people to bully me into stupidity. I know what I meant and I know what I said. If you don’t like it, don’t respond.

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    bwahahaha!

    Yeah, if that’s the case, tell me more about “acting” and “words”?

    fuck me, you’re such a stupid piece of shit.

    hermitix_world,

    You found stupidity all on your lonesome. No bullying required.

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Ok then. I’m so glad you have to pick on the guy just saying parents aren’t to blame for all the older kid’s choices. It makes total sense to keep yammering on with the dumb statements.

    BreakDecks,

    Lmao, I definitely didn’t make this guy stupid. He was like that when I found him.

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    You can go fuck yourself little shit bag

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    does baby need his bottle?

    BreakDecks,

    you need to calm down

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    he needs more than just that.

    UnpluggedFridge,

    There are millions of things kids keep from their parents while growing up, and they do it for millions of different reasons, some good some bad and some goofy. Why do we need the government stepping in deciding which secrets, especially those that have nothing to do with the administration of education, are valid?

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    My point has never been that they should. My point is that it’s not solely the parent’s fault that kids hide things.

    UnpluggedFridge,

    Everything requires context. Sometimes kids hide things because their parents may react with violence or some other form of extreme punishment. But regardless of the reason, I would be concerned that these mandatory disclosure policies are stifling the 1st amendment rights of the children, and even worse they are doing so based on a specific viewpoint.

    psud,

    I didn’t tell my parents I liked fucked both boys and girls, they eventually noticed who I was having over overnight

    I don’t think I ever told anyone about the gender dysphoria I felt when I was young, and I’m really glad that if anyone at school discovered that from something I said or did they weren’t going to tell my parents. They would have been supportive, but I wasn’t sure of myself at all and support might have pushed me too hard in one direction or the other

    FfaerieOxide,
    FfaerieOxide avatar

    If my kid (which I do have one) was trying to pass as another gender in school, but not home, I would want to know.

    If you don't already, it's because you haven't made your child feel safe telling you.

    redfox,

    I agree with you. I would be very upset if my public school didn’t report major changes to me.

    I would also feel like a failure of having open communication with my son if I didn’t know something like that and he wasn’t confident in telling me or didn’t feel safe and loved.

    If he was cutting himself and they didn’t tell me, I could attempt to press charges. I know people will not view self harm and identity the same thought because of sigma.

    I wish we could create an environment where there’s no need to protect a kid’s identity issues because of ridicule and torment. There’s failures all around here.

    Kraven_the_Hunter,

    I know people will not view self harm and identity the same thought because of sigma.

    It has nothing to do with stigma. Why are you equating gender identity with self harm? That’s a pretty shit take.

    redfox, (edited )

    They arent. I’m not saying gender identity is self harm. That’s why I mentioned your quote.

    It point is regarding being selective about what is required to report and not. I dont feel comfortable with the school deciding which major concern to report or not.

    Edit, not sure how I see you drawing that conclusion. I used the word stigma because of what people can go through.

    FfaerieOxide,
    FfaerieOxide avatar

    I dont feel comfortable with the school deciding which major concern to report or not.

    Gender identity is not a major concern. It's an aspect of identity

    Be a decent parent your kid will tell you all by themself.

    aleph,
    @aleph@lemm.ee avatar

    You are less comfortable with schools being able to deal with sensitive situations in a nuanced manner than you are with forcing them to adopt a single, narrow, sledgehammer approach that could put many students in harm’s way?

    That’s a rather peculiar take.

    redfox,

    I hear what you’re saying.

    My personal desire to have a school tell me what they know isn’t based on a lack of empathy.

    dustyData,

    But it is based on a lack of empathy though. Everything in this thread coming from you is about you, how you are perceived or judged as a parent or how much power you can exert. Authoritarianism with good intentions (I control you because I care) is still authoritarianism.

    Even when discussing self-harm, you don’t mention the hypothetical kid’s safety at all. “I would press charges”, what does that accomplish? that doesn’t address any issue or solves any problem, your kid is still suffering so bad that they feel like they need to self-harm, a judge decision can’t change that.

    Not single lick of empathy there, but posturing and high horse riding. “I dont feel comfortable with the school deciding which major concern to report or not”, feel as uncomfortable as you want but that won’t change the fact that schools actually have to do that every single day. For all sorts of reasons. It comes with the territory. That sentiment is just an expression of desire to control. Schools need more nuance and preparation to make those decisions, not less. It’s impossible to have any social system where the system agents don’t have to constantly decide what to say to whom. It’s called being in a society.

    redfox,

    I see your point. As I’ve been thinking about the need for kids to have resources somewhere, the school is a pretty good place for it. They need a safe place.

    I don’t need to control my kid. I don’t do that now. I believe in setting the condition for honesty and growth, like making mistakes, without being crushed for it. Feels like that’s working so far.

    I would support the ability for them to get counseling on how to deal with parents and how to deal with a world that seems to shit on and oppress small groups of people. I just would want them to get me involved at some point. Maybe there are cases where that’s not in the best interests of the young person. That’s the argument for giving the school discretion. I see that.

    My self harm comment was because of my concern for my kid’s safety, that’s why I would personally be mad. I wouldn’t think that needed spelled out, but I’m guessing you’re using its omission to support your judgement.

    I disagree with your high horsing assertion. You’re allowed that opinion of me, but working through things is easier when you aren’t called names. It feels like most of your comments are high horsing from the other side. I’d rather you just ask questions.

    dustyData, (edited )

    No name calling on my part. I was just expressing the public impression that your comments creates. If you take that as an insult, then maybe do some introspection on why you consider other’s feedback to be derogatory, and only seem to be comfortable with interrogatories. To give opinions means necessarily subjecting ourselves to other’s opinions about our opinions. Why would you be mad that a school determines that the best course of action is to protect the child’s privacy and conceal some part of it from you? maybe you are the problem, that’s always a possibility, and that’s not a personal attack on you as a parent, it’s protecting the child from you. Often times that’s the only recourse the school has when dealing with abusive and overbearing parents. Like I said, schools need more flexibility and nuance available for their response, not less.

    EldritchFeminity,

    Here’s the thing, the situation that this mandate was created for is so improbable that I literally can’t imagine a scenario where it would occur.

    A kid being out publicly at school but not at home? It makes no sense. Out with their friends, sure, but the only way that I could see this mandate taking effect is in a scenario where a kid has confided privately with a teacher or school counselor, or at a school run LGBT group or something. And that’s not a situation where you would break the kid’s trust and tell their parents. It would be a situation where you help them gather the confidence to tell their parents on their own, maybe in the safety of the counselor’s office or something for support. But never go behind their back and tell their parents without their consent. A child’s consent is just as important as an adults. Self-harm or drug use? That might be a time when you need to get the parents involved, unless they’re the problem, in which case CPS comes into the picture.

    The point of this mandate is to put the fear of being outed to transphobic parents into the hearts of trans kids and nothing more. The cruelty is the point.

    redfox,

    That makes more sense to me. I would worry that it takes away a small group of people in an already limited avenues situation.

    I don’t know how to do both. Giving a young person counsel to tell their family would be of great help. Maybe that could be a compromise? If I did something to make my son feel scared (again, I’d be mortified of that because of would feel like a major failure), I would be ok if the school was providing the assistance to help, maybe with the worst thing being they have to mention it eventually?

    EldritchFeminity,

    Requiring schools to mention it at all is an issue, though. There’s laws that prevent pediatricians and therapists from doing exactly that without the kid’s consent, and for good reason. Kids have as much of a right to privacy as adults.

    Schools already provide that sort of counseling (at least good ones do). My mom was a guidance counselor for years, and she had the phone numbers of several therapists in the area to send kids and families to for help for all kinds of reasons. She also did house calls with CPS in the worst cases, but that’s beside the point.

    Putting a timer on being forced to out kids isn’t going to help anyone. It’s just going to give kids in bad homes time to put together a bug-out bag and split before shit hits the fan, making them homeless and putting them in a vulnerable position for sex trafficking, drug use, and exploitation. And even in innocuous situations with accepting parents, that’s just telling someone who can’t swim that you’re giving them five minutes before you push them into the deep end of the pool.

    Just because your kid doesn’t feel comfortable talking to you about some of this stuff isn’t a moral failing on your part or anything. It could be for any number of reasons. Anxiety sucks. It took me 10 years to come to terms with being trans and tell my parents, despite them being some of the most liberal people I’ve ever met and friends with the only trans person I know of in my hometown. And if I had been in school and my school had told them without my permission? The violation of my privacy would’ve been devastating and probably sent me to therapy.

    Sometimes, kids just need a neutral third party to talk about things with. I mentioned in another post how I played the role of confidant and advisor to kids a ton as a 20-something year old manager at a fish market. Everything from distracting loving but overbearing parents so that their kids could speak for themselves to the boss to providing financial advice for a kid who knew he only had 2 years to save up for renting an apartment and buying a car when his mom would inevitably kick him out at 18. Having somebody with a viewpoint who is outside of your parents’ social circle to ask about things is a tool all kids should be free to take advantage of, and not everything talked about needs to get back to their parents’ ears.

    redfox,

    Thanks for this. Honestly, I see this a bit differently from my initial thoughts.

    EldritchFeminity,

    This is why these kinds of things are so dangerous. They’re designed in such a way as to gloss over any nuances and appeal directly to people’s emotions.

    It takes so much effort to show how harmful these actually are, while these people go on to pass more harmful laws while you’re busy getting rid of the first one. Republicans put forward over 200 anti-trans bills in the first 6 months of last year, amounting to something like 1.2 new bills every day.

    If I wasn’t a part of this minority group and didn’t have the experience working with kids that I do, I don’t think I could point out the issues in this well enough that other people could see what I’m seeing. I can see them clear as day, but that’s because it’s part of my lived experience.

    Whenever I see something like this, I always ask myself, “If this were aimed at adults, would I feel differently?” and “Is there hard data to back this up, or is it entirely running on assumptions/emotions?” Children are a favorite demographic to use for political stunts because everybody wants to protect them, and they can’t speak up for themselves about what they actually want and what would actually help them. It’s why Republicans hate Greta Thunberg so much. Because she’s so vocal and an activist standing up for what she believes in, and it goes against what they want you to think about kids.

    seth,

    My sibling had to hide their orientation for years because our parents love their Abrahamic god more than their children’s well-being, and also hid it from me out of fear that I would react in the same intolerant way. I wouldn’t have, but understand why they thought I would.

    I wish there had been a safe adult resource to talk to for them, like an openly tolerant and welcoming teacher or counselor who wouldn’t breach their trust; it could’ve saved years of negative self-esteem thinking they weren’t good enough to be loved for simply being themself. There sure as shit wasn’t that resource in our home or church. If parents aren’t trusted by their kids, it’s because they have shown their kids they can’t be trusted. That isn’t a freak occurrence, it comes from years of demonstrating it through their words and actions.

    FfaerieOxide,
    FfaerieOxide avatar

    I would be very upset if my public school didn’t report major changes to me.

    Be a good parent and your kid will tell you themself

    If he was cutting himself and they didn’t tell me, I could attempt to press charges.

    Transition is not self-harm. In many cases it's what prevents feeling the need to self-harm.

    I know people will not view self harm and identity the same thought because of sigma.

    They don't view identity as self-harm because they are correct, non-assholes.

    I wish we could create an environment where there’s no need to protect a kid’s identity issues because of ridicule and torment.

    You aren't doing that advocating for forced outing. You're doing the opposite.

    redfox,

    forced outing

    I guess that’s ultimately what would happen, and indeed wouldn’t work.

    Self harm was just an example of a duty to report, wasn’t saying that’s the same, I know that’s how it probably sounded.

    Iwasondigg,

    I live in this school district and was part of the group of parents that got these board members recalled. The issue is forcing educators to report it instead of trusting them to do the right thing. If they have a good relationship with the parents and know it’s for the best to tell them what is happening with their student, or if they suspect there’s something going on in the home where it’s better for the student to keep their confidence, the decision should be up to the teacher to do what is right. These are not black and white situations. Also, regardless of anyone’s opinion on the issue, the state had already made a policy, so these board members knowingly made a political decision that cost the district millions of dollars to defend in court, knowing they would lose. They didn’t care, because they have no kids in the schools here. They were political activists using our kids as pawns. To the curb with that trash.

    FfaerieOxide,
    FfaerieOxide avatar

    I live in this school district and was part of the group of parents that got these board members recalled.

    Good looking. Thanks for being cool.

    S_204,

    Don’t be a shitty parent and you don’t have to worry about this. That’s really how easy it is on this specific topic.

    If your kid feels safer talking to their teacher about their identity than they do their own parents, then you have absolutely failed as a parent.

    FfaerieOxide,
    FfaerieOxide avatar

    If your kid feels safer talking to their teacher about their identity than they do their own parents, then you have absolutely failed as a parent.

    Speak that shit.

    jjjalljs,

    Try to remember when you were a kid. Would you want your teacher ratting you out to your parents for something personal and harmless, and that you aren’t ready to talk about with your parents?

    How would you have felt? About the teacher, the school, your parents? Do you think this would have negatively affected your school work, social life, and home life?

    aleph, (edited )
    @aleph@lemm.ee avatar

    I think you and others who thought the policy was a good idea are missing the key reason why it isn’t.

    The rule forced schools to notify parents regardless of the circumstances. It did not say that parents must not be notified under any circumstances. That’s a massive difference.

    As you said, this is not a cut and dry issue. If a school deems that a trans student’s health and safety are in danger and that the parents should be notified, then they can make the decision to do so. However, under most circumstances, if the parents are not already aware that their child is changing their gender identity then there is a good reason for that.

    These situations are highly sensitive and must be dealt with on a case-by-case basis - the policy destroyed all that and put many students in danger unnecessarily by completely removing all nuance from the situation.

    EldritchFeminity,

    I said this further down the thread, but demanding teachers put the feelings of some parents above the wellbeing of the most vulnerable kids by not letting them use their own judgment to do what’s best for each kid on a case by case basis isn’t the right way to go about this.

    The odds of a kid being out at school but not at home are incredibly unlikely, in my opinion. With their friends would be one thing, but to be publicly out without their parents knowing? Makes no sense, especially with the chances of bullying or somebody else just snitching (intentionally or by accident) to their parents. I could see kids confiding in a school counselor or a teacher that they trust, but the way it’s worded is all about making trans kids afraid and nothing more. Under this mandate, if your kid asks a teacher to call them Bob instead of Robert, the school is required to tell you. The cruelty was and continues to be the point for these people.

    maniclucky,

    Someone involved in this stuff should tip off the teenagers to the gratuitous malicious compliance that’s sitting right there (preferably with a teacher who’s in on it).

    Just every day, whole classes should request to go by a different name. Then, the school is compelled to annoy the parents over teenage bullshit. And when the angry parents are pissed that they are getting spammed by the school, all the school can say is “we can’t change the rules, the current school board forces us to do this”.

    EldritchFeminity,

    I love this idea. Have a Spanish day where everybody needs to use a Spanish name, a French day, etc. You could go totally into it and even use it as a fun thing where you get to teach kids about different places and cultures.

    maniclucky,

    Teach about different cultures?! But that’ll make the conservatives mad! 🤣

    Blackmist,

    I’d guess the rule isn’t really for you though.

    If a kid would rather tell a thousand other people that they’re trans and keep it a secret from a parent, it’s not really someone that has a right to know. And in all honestly not really the sort of person that should be in charge of children at all.

    phdepressed,

    The danger to trans kids can’t be understated more in your comment. Outing a kid to parents against their transition is a good way to get them shunned and bullied to homelessness and/or death. Unsupported and bullied kids have astronomically higher rate of suicide, homelessness, and just plain chances of being murdered like that Oklahoma trans teenager recently.

    Teachers can support a kid in coming out to their parents or out the kid to their parents based on their judgement rather than being required to do so. Your child has a right to privacy as well, depending on age and whether the secret harms others. Being trans at the point where they want to change their name is usually a high-school thing and being trans isn’t harming anyone.

    Reverendender,

    Some good news sure is refreshing

    ChihuahuaOfDoom,

    How can you be a member of the school board in an area you don’t live?

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    It said the supporters were from elsewhere, not the school board members. Or did I miss that?

    Iwasondigg,

    Hi I live in this district and was part of the recall effort. Those board members didn’t have kids in OUSD schools. They send their kids to private school. I don’t know where they live, but they are politically active in other nearby communities outside the district and would encourage extreme political activists that don’t live in our district to come make a circus out of board meetings. Their focus was not on kids or schools. Their interest was only in chaos.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t doubt that their focus was on chaos at all. I’m also not surprised that they didn’t have kids in the public school system. I was just basing it on what I read in the article and I didn’t remember reading anything about that in the article.

    ChihuahuaOfDoom,

    Thanks, apparently I can’t read.

    Noodle07,

    Reading is hard, so many letters, so many ways to arrange them

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    oops. poos.

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