Why don't computers have "computer-numbers" equivalent to phone numbers

Why doesn’t every computer have 256 char domain name, along with a private key to prove it is the sole owner of the address?

Edits: For those technically inclined: Stuff like DHCP seems unnecessary if every device has a serial number based address that’s known not to collide. It seems way more simple and faster than leasing dynamic addresses. On top of that with VOIP I can get phone calls even without cell service, even behind a NAT. Why is the network designed in such a way where that is possible, but I can’t buy a static address that will persist across networks endpoint changes (e.g. laptop connecting to a new unconfigured wifi connection) such that I can initiate a connection to my laptop while it is behind a NAT.

  • Yes, it would be a privacy nightmare, I want to know why it didnt turn out that way
  • When I say phone number, I mean including area/country code
  • AFAIK IP addresses (even static public ones) are not equivlent to phone numbers. I don’t get a new phone number every time I connect to a new cell tower. Even if a static IP is assigned to a device, my understanding is that connecting the device to a new uncontrolled WiFi, especially a router with a NAT, will make it so that people who try to connect to the static IP will simply fail.
  • No, MAC addresses are not equivalent phone numbers. 1. Phone numbers have one unique owner, MAC addresses can have many owners because they can be changed at any time to any thing on most laptops. 2. A message can’t be sent directly to a MAC address in the same way as a phone number
  • Yes, IMEI is unique, but my laptop doesn’t have one and even if it did its not the same as an eSim or sim card. We can send a message to an activated Sim, we can’t send a message to an IMEI or serial number
ulterno,
@ulterno@lemmy.kde.social avatar

its not the same as an eSim or sim card

I think you have part of your answer.
Get a laptop with a SIM Card reader, and do what you may.

The reason it doesn’t work with IP is because, it started out with local networks and was expanded from that. A domain name is similar to a phone number, just that the user has the IP routing information available, whereas in case of phone connection, a probably similar system for routing is all abstracted by cell exchanges.

P.S. Thanks for the food for thought.

Honytawk,

MAC’s used to be static, but then hackers found ways to spoof it. Now manufacturers don’t care to make them static anymore.

Get a laptop with a SIM and you will have an IMEI and phone number, plus 5G.

ForgotAboutDre,

Android defaults to lying about your Mac address, which can be frustrating if you want to manage your home network.

rickyrigatoni,

Really? So I don’t have to worry about them recording my MAC address when I torrent on mcdonalds wifi?

ForgotAboutDre,

Google will know. They gather all WiFi and Bluetooth data in the name of location services.

ChaoticNeutralCzech, (edited )

Because

  1. When the internet was rolling out, a decentralized, open, best-effort solution of TCP/IP thankfully won over telephone companies’ centralized system proposal
  2. IPv6 is still not universal for some damn reason
  3. Onion addresses solve these problems but good luck getting everyone aboard with Tor
  4. You always trade anonymity for reachability, and with the amount of threats, NAT and firewalls have been put up to make it harder for unsolicited requests to reach you by default
skullgiver, (edited )
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    jeffhykin,

    Thank you for such a long and detailed post! I indeed did not know about things beyond the SIM, and I didn’t know about the extra details about the country codes either. That is extremely interesting to me.

    With the phone spoofing though, does that mean two factor with a phone number is basically useless? If I had authentication based on a MAC address, it would take seconds to break it. But I think, and sure hope, that auth based on phone numbers is more secure.

    I think your domain name answer – that for the most part computers didnt need them – is a very satisfying answer.

    pishadoot,

    Phone number 2FA isn’t useless, insomuch as it’s better than no 2FA at all, but it is easily the worst form of 2FA because SIM jacking (usually involves a scammer tricking a customer service agent into migrating your phone number to their device instead of yours in order to intercept the 2FA messages) is laughably simple using easily acquired info such as your DOB, address, and last 4 of your SSN.

    If phone 2FA is the only option, use it. But don’t use it if you have any other option.

    skullgiver, (edited )
    @skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    jeffhykin,

    Wow that’s super interesting to know. So its still got some resistance, but a lot less than I thought. Thanks again for sharing!

    SwingingTheLamp,

    I haven’t read all of the replies to see if somebody else had said this, but it’s because the Internet was designed to be completely decentralized, whereas the phone system requires your line or device to be registered with the network operator(s). Any device that can get a valid Internet address for the local network can communicate with the whole Internet, but a phone will only work if it’s explicitly known by the phone service provider, and that information shared to all providers.

    We could set up a system, layered on top of the Internet, by which each computer could register itself in a central directory each time it connects, and thus be reachable at the same address no matter where it connects, even on a NAT connection. In fact, it’s easy to do with a VPN and Dynamic DNS (both of which require the cooperation some centralized authority). It’s just not universal, because, well, what’s the utility of doing so?

    slazer2au,

    You seem to have be missing a fundamental thing about tech but I can’t pin down what it is. So I will respond to your edits.

    but I can’t buy a static address that will persist across networks endpoint changes

    You can. It’s called Provider Independent Space and it a pain to go with as an individual.

    Yes, it would be a privacy nightmare, I want to know why it didnt turn out that way

    Because people smarter than you, I, and everyone else in this post said 'Yes EUI-64 is a good idea in principe but the problems on a privacy perspective outweigh the advantages. So let’s build a system called MAC randomisation so people can get multiple address to access the internet with. ’
    The good news is you can turn off MAC randomisation.

    AFAIK IP addresses (even static public ones) are not equivlent to phone numbers. I don’t get a new phone number every time I connect to a new cell tower

    In some parts of the world or before 2000 if you changed mobile providers, say from Vodafone to Telstra you had to get a new number. Since that change number routing has become a nightmare and it makes the BGPv4 table look sane in comparison.

    Even if a static IP is assigned to a device, my understanding is that connecting the device to a new uncontrolled WiFi, especially a router with a NAT, will make it so that people who try to connect to the static IP will simply fail.

    This is a complex one due to NAT in the ipv4 space. NAT exists purely to allow devices to have the same private IPv4 address and hide behind a public v4 address.

    No, MAC addresses are not equivalent phone numbers. 1. Phone numbers have one unique owner, MAC addresses can have many owners because they can be changed at any time to any thing on most laptops. 2. A message can’t be sent directly to a MAC address in the same way as a phone number

    1. MAC do have unique owner blocks. Cisco somewhat owned the 0000.0C block.
    2. Yes you can. That is literally how it works down the TCP/IP stack.

    Yes, IMEI is unique, but my laptop doesn’t have one and even if it did its not the same as an eSim or sim card. We can send a message to an activated Sim, we can’t send a message to an IMEI or serial number

    If your laptop has a regular Sim slot it will have an IMEI. True we can’t send messages via IMEI or serial because those systems were never designed for message routing.

    SchmidtGenetics,
    • No, MAC addresses are not equivalent phone numbers. I can’t edit my phone number for free in 30sec to whatever I want, and I can’t send a message to a MAC address.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6a4ebc36-c74b-49c3-b8fa-71f8291ff02e.jpeg

    You sure about that?

    jeffhykin, (edited )

    Yes I’m sure. Try changing the number to 911. Phone numbers only have one owner, MAC addresses may have many owners.

    SchmidtGenetics,

    Try to change your ip to a taken one. What’s your point?

    jeffhykin, (edited )

    The IP doesn’t persist across network hops (cell tower to cell tower) and the MAC address doesnt have one verified owner. A phone number is both verified having one owner and persists across network hops.

    Sethayy,

    So then drop your phone and pick up your friends.

    What number do you have now?

    Or if you really want an IP to follow you plug in your router at your friends house.

    SchmidtGenetics,

    Static ips persist.

    MAC addresses can be banned

    Phone numbers can’t roam

    Phone numbers aren’t unique (area code)

    Wrong on all fronts.

    Shadow,
    @Shadow@lemmy.ca avatar

    Intel tried this on the Pentium 3, we all hated it so they stopped.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_III#Controversy_a…

    jeffhykin,

    This is the kind of answer I was looking for, thank you!

    adespoton,

    Along with the other comments on UDID, IMEI and MAC, I’d just like to point out that phones don’t have phone numbers.

    On land lines, the number is assigned to the line that goes to your house from the local operations center; on mobile phones, the number is linked by your carrier to THEIR SIM card that you stick in your phone.

    eSIM almost gets there; instead of a physical card linked to the phone number, all the logic and secrets are stored in a secure enclave on your phone and THAT is linked to the number, which is in a directory managed by your carrier. It’s linked to the phone itself because of the phone’s IMEI.

    jeffhykin, (edited )

    Sure, I’ll change the title to say “phones have unique phone number (b/c sim cards), why don’t computers have an equivalent?” I didnt mean one phone == one phone number.

    With VOIP I can get phone calls even without cell service, even behind a NAT. My question is why is the network designed in such a way where that is possible, but I can’t buy a static address that will persist across networks endpoint changes (e.g. new wifi connection) such that I can initiate a connection to my laptop while it is behind a NAT.

    Sethayy,

    For the laptop thing you realistically could by a WAN IP per device, itd just be expensivr and also a massive security issue DMZ’ing all your devices

    jeffhykin,

    Cool, I’ll have to look that up!

    adespoton,

    All you have to do is buy your own IP, and you can use it whenever you want. You don’t have to use one given to you by the upstream gateway via DHCP or BootP.

    Of course, you need to make sure the upstream router is configured to not drop addresses it didn’t assign itself.

    jeffhykin,

    Even paying for a static IP its not like a phone number which is discoverable behind a NAT without extra router configuration.

    SchmidtGenetics,

    Have you ever tried roaming with a cellphone…?

    jeffhykin,

    Yep, and I can verify my phone number didnt change when roaming, people could still call me.

    SchmidtGenetics,

    Your roaming is the extra configuration you speak of, and is usually an extra fee…… that’s the “static” part

    Droechai,

    Usually the phone number changes though. My phone number is 070Xxxx… here in Sweden, but my folks in law need to call 004670xxxx to call me unless they are visiting in which case 070xx works again

    jeffhykin,

    You’re right it depends on the definition of phone number, and I edited the original post to try and be more clear that I meant the phone number including the country code and area code.

    If you’re talking about something other than country/area code though, then that’s news to me.

    adespoton,

    That’s like saying “why isn’t my phone number that I set up on my own POTS network usable on the international telephone system?”

    If you’re behind NAT, you aren’t technically on the Internet; that’s why you need Network Address Translation in the first place.

    IPv6 fixes this by letting every conceivable device have its own address on the Internet, but that comes with its own security and privacy issues, so it’s rarely used.

    SchmidtGenetics,

    Static IP

    jeffhykin,

    AFAIK static public-facing IP addresses are limited to a physical location. It would work if my laptop never left my house but as soon as I take it to the airport its no longer accessible. People who try to connect to the static ip would just get a message saying the address timed out.

    mbfalzar,

    I’ve got a VPN set up on my home server so when I leave the house, my public IP is still the same on my laptop as it is at home. If you’ve got people sending you messages directly via IP why wouldn’t you just set that up?

    jeffhykin,

    Thats a valid solution, thanks for saying it!

    I think it is good to note this requires either having another system at home or in the cloud to host the VPN right?

    mbfalzar,

    Not actually! I mean, yes, you’d need another device, but your router itself can be the VPN host if it’s the right model. The VPN server software is extremely lightweight, so most higher end routers just include it as an option in management, but you can get away with a cheap router and something like a cheap raspberry pi/clone, which would also give you something to put pihole on

    JesterIzDead,

    a) what the hell is ipv32?

    b) it’s astounding how many upvotes some of these nonsensical answers have

    adam_y,
    @adam_y@lemmy.world avatar

    I see you getting downvoted for a correct answer.

    IP addresses are like street addresses. I can live at 10 High Street in London, you can live at 10 High Street in Ohio. Those are not the same address right? Folk confusing public and private ip addresses.

    jeffhykin, (edited )
    1. Yeah I was lazy with saying ipv32 just to mean something excessively long. I didnt want to say ipv6, since I kinda think it needs to at least be 64bits (edit: ipv6 is actually 128bits), and really for a public-private key pair it should be larger, so more like 512 to avoid anything like the v4 v6 cacatestrophe again in 20 years with post quantum forms of asymetric key challenges. But I didnt feel like writing all that out.
    2. I’m with you. I knew I’d get people not reading and say “that’s the ip address”, but MAC address? 🤦‍♂️
    Kolanaki,
    @Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

    That’s what the serial numbers on the parts themselves are.

    slazer2au,

    What makes you think all phones have unique numbers? Some have no direct dial numbers.

    As for each device getting a unique IP address this is somewhat in the spec for EUI-64 IPv6 address. Your IP is based on your interfaces MAC address but this becomes a privacy nightmare.

    If the MAC address’s of the wifi chip in your phone is 1122.3344.5566 your IPv6 address at home can be 2001:0db8:0000:00000:1122:33ff:fe44:5566 but when at work your address may be 2001:db8:1000:0000:1122:33ff:fe44:5566. No matter where you connect to the last 4 sections of the address is the same and companies will use that as one of the data points of your digital profile.

    JesterIzDead,

    The IMEI is unique

    jeffhykin,

    I meant “in the same way that phone numbers are unique to phones (not perfectly unique, some phones have dual Sim, some have no sim, sometimes a Sim changes numbers after contacting the provider, etc)”

    Its just typing all that^ in a title is kinda long.

    EUI-64 IPv6 (and why its not a reality) though is kinda what I’m curious about. But not really because, even under that spec, its still not static like a phone number. I want to know why networks were not created in a way where I can send a message to a laptop regardless of what WiFi its connected to (assuming it is connected and online).

    slazer2au,

    Because it will be an ungodly thing to manage. The national phone databases are already a nightmare to manage. it would be far worse if we had a global one.

    SchmidtGenetics,

    Isn’t that what a MAC address is? There is a few ways to ch age it unless that’s been fixed iirc.

    pinchcramp,
    @pinchcramp@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    I don’t think that’s something that needs to be fixed. Your phone (and probably your computer) can randomize its MAC address every time it connects to a new WiFi to make it harder to track you.

    Guest_User,

    You will always be able to spoof your MAC address if needed. I don’t see the standard ever changing enough to prevent that.

    AFKBRBChocolate,

    Though the same is true for phone numbers

    jeffhykin, (edited )

    I’m shocked this answer has so many upvotes. No, a MAC address is not close to a phone number. No two people have the same phone number, and I can’t just edit my phone number to be someone else’s number.

    • “two network interfaces connected to two different networks can share the same MAC address”
    • “Many network interfaces, however, support changing their MAC addresses”

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address

    skullgiver, (edited )
    @skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    JesterIzDead,

    Not quite. IMEIs are unique to hardware. IMSIs are unique to SIMs

    SchmidtGenetics, (edited )

    You ask a “no stupid” question then try to call out an answer? Bold move cotton.

    Sure you can change your phone number, it’s called spoofing, or just call your provider and get a new one, sometimes they charge sometimes they don’t. So why are you claiming it’s not possible?

    People have the same phone numbers, that’s why area codes exist, that’s kinda the same thing as a provider and a MAC address, no…?

    Edit well then. https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6d898f12-13ae-4017-addf-c53d0ad6f2b4.jpeg

    jeffhykin,

    Fair, I could have said fully qualified number, including country code.

    And also fair, instead of saying a MAC could be edited, I should’ve said each phone number has one global owner, while each MAC address could have many owners.

    Corrections have been made 👍

    ArbiterXero,

    It’s called a MAC address.

    The problem with it is mostly routing.

    The osi model has 7 layers of connection to form a proper internet connection.

    The MAC address exists but doesn’t leave the physical network. The MAC address is used to physically connect your computer to the router, and it defines your piece of hardware.

    The IP address can change, because your computer can connect to different networks.

    If you tried to route everything with a MAC address, (which isn’t possible, but for arguments sake we will pretend it is) the problem is that when you take your phone with its MAC address off your wifi and on to your work wifi, Where would the registry be? How would the Internet know how to find your phone? Do you just log into one giant global registry so that everyone can find your phone when they are trying to communicate with it? That would be a giant fucking database and everyone would always be trying to use it.

    Routing is a big and complex problem, and these things didn’t work with ipv4

    They do work better with IPv6. IPv6 adresses don’t need to change like ipv4 for a bunch of reasons.

    From a philosophical level, the Internet was designed for people to be anonymous and make relatively anonymous connections. You wanted to be flexible enough that you can just be assigned a new number and work with that new number quickly.

    This is a really simple explanation, and I got some basic facts wrong just for ease of understanding, but the principals are correct.

    slazer2au,

    If you tried to route everything with a MAC address, (which isn’t possible, but for arguments sake we will pretend it is) the problem is that when you take your phone with its MAC address off your wifi and on to your work wifi, Where would the registry be? How would the Internet know how to find your phone? Do you just log into one giant global registry so that everyone can find your phone when they are trying to communicate with it? That would be a giant fucking database and everyone would always be trying to use it.

    This is a solved issue called EUI-64 IPv6 addressing. It is a privacy nightmare.

    ArbiterXero,

    Yeah I addressed that IPv6 CAN do it, but you’re right.

    Philosophically, I don’t want people or companies following me around that much, hence the “private MAC addresses” that came out a few years ago

    slazer2au,

    I hate to break it to you but MAC randomisation has been around since 2007. Fuck we are getting old.

    HakFoo,

    And before that, a bad firmware flash could garble the MAC.

    ArbiterXero,

    Shut your filthy mouth! 😝

    HakFoo,

    And before that, a bad firmware flash could garble the MAC.

    jeffhykin, (edited )

    Every phone number has one owner, but MAC addresses can have many owners. They’re categorically different.

    How would the internet know how to find your phone?

    The same way phone calls try to find a phone when its powered off. Attempt, and then fail under a timeout.

    Where would the registery be?

    Same place as the phone number registry. Or the domain name registry.

    That would be one giant database

    Yep the domain name registry and cell phone registry very much are AFAIK

    ArbiterXero,

    The domain registry is NOT, and it’s categorised by various tld’s the scope of the routing is MUCH higher traffic.

    Your cell phone is run by a provider and has maybe 0.0000001% as much lookups as routing would have.

    These things are all done in various tree light structures to try and eliminate central points of failure . The Internet was designed to try and resist failure, and you are creating some central failure points.

    Even if you created several of them, synchronisation issues would be Basically impossible to fix or take up unbelievable amounts of bandwidth

    jeffhykin,

    This I’m interested in, because its at the edge/limits of my knowledge when it comes to domains and cellular networking.

    Are you saying if cell phones had a larger address space, let’s say 32 digits base 10, and every device was given a cell phone number, it would overwhelm the existing infrastructure?

    ThanksForAllTheFish,

    My understanding with phones is that you phone your own provider, who then looks up the provider of the number you’re calling based on country code, provider or area code prefixes. Providers will “peer” with each other to route calls over the most cost efficient path. So the other sides provider is responsible for getting it to the right destination phone within thier own customer network. Theres no authentication from the sending party on a protocol level, this is why scammers can spoof as any phone number.

    I believe that IP routing does something similar, the IP data is handed over to possibly multiple providers until it reaches its destination provider. The blocks of ip addresses are published as linked to an Autonomous System and each autonomous system has an owner/provider. The source is not authenticated at a protocol level which is why we need client and server certificates.

    In DNS you go to the root TLD servers and ask what IP the .com resolver is. The .com resolver has a list of mappings of authoritative name servers to domains. So example.com may have an authoritative NS of 1.2.3.4 who you can go to and ask what IP test.example.com is hosted on. The authoritative name server is the source of truth for that domain and other servers cache it to prevent overloading and increase speed. You may check with the authoritative NS if you want, but it may be slower to respond than your local NS. Again DNS is not authenticated at the protocol level so we need server certificates to prove that the device behind the IP serving you is allowed to serve you test.example.com.

    ArbiterXero,

    It’s not just the address space, but also the sheer number of lookups.

    DNS has authoritative name servers based on tld, and then domain, and then maybe subdomain.

    When you’re dealing with IP addresses, there is no such tree that I lookup, I just fire it into the abyss and let the routing hardware do the lookups. I know who my gateway is to the internet, but I usually don’t keep the routing information.

    My ISP’s routing hardware then says “this IP was last found somewhere in Europe so I’ll fire it at my European connection and hope they get it right.”

    Losses are expected.

    IPv6 CAN route with larger address tables, but the “fire and forget” method still exists.

    There’s also a method to scream at all my peers “do you know where 5.5.5.5 is, because I don’t know” I’ll remember their answer for a bit because that’s useful, but I’ll eventually forget it because I expect it to move. I expect this ip movement because I’m fault tolerant. I might not find the fastest way there, but I’ll find it.

    Philosophically, the internet is designed to be fault tolerant and pseudo anonymous. So if 5.5.5.5 is somewhere in Spain and my Spain peer dies, I recognise that the packets are failing and then I start blasting them at England, because my British connection knows all about the Spanish villa and can pass along my messages. I don’t really care where Spain is, I care about who can get my message there and that’s it. It’s too onerous to always keep track of where everyone is, and MOST people on the internet I don’t actually know about because they’re behind a Nat gateway and I don’t care about them. This makes it so I only have to care about edge devices and greatly simplifies my list.

    So for example, your laptop isn’t actually on the internet. Your modem/router is, but your laptop doesn’t exist to the internet. When I want to send you a packet, I just send it to your router and let the router handle it. I don’t even know that your laptop exists, and I don’t care.

    Well your router will send the data to your laptop instead of your phone because the Nat is keeping track of who requested it and your phone didn’t ask for it. This causes problems because it means that from outside your network, I can’t just connect and send data inside your network unless someone asked for it. So I can’t just call your cell phone unless it reaches out first because I don’t know that your cell phone exists, and even if I did, the router would block it. This is why port forwarding exists, it allows you to have your laptop get ALL data sent to the router on port 12345. I still don’t know about your laptop, but I know that there’s a server on your IP address on port 12345 that I can connect to and request/send data to. Keeping track of all of this just so that I always know where your laptop is requires a fair bit of coordination at many layers.

    Ideally it has a domain at a registrar that I can ask about where it currently is. The routing is still “fire and forget “ because it simplifies my list of “where every IP is” and even then, I only know about the laptop’s edge connection to the internet and let that edge take care of where to actually send the data so I don’t have to think about it.

    In IPv6, Nat works a little different, but it’s still close.

    I’m honestly not sure how many mistakes I made, I just kinda brain dumped info, so let me know which pieces don’t make sense.

    jeffhykin,

    If I’m understanding correctly, you’re saying that right now the network doesn’t have an exhaustive table of IP addresses to physical locations. It has a cache, and a hierarchy, and the path to a location of the IP is fluid.

    But a system where every device could be directly contacted/identified like a Sim card, would effectively require a complete table of “what network is device ABC at”. A table that is updated every time the device changes network connections. It would be like trying to change domain name to point to a different IP address.

    The problem is, updating a domain to point to a new IP takes hours or days not seconds, so doing that every time a phone changes WiFi is not practical.

    Is that a good summary?

    ArbiterXero,

    Yes, but we’re talking about “seconds” and “nanoseconds” rather than hours.

    Networks move much faster than we do.

    There’s also no hierarchy of IP addresses, and that matters for lookups.

    So the 1 second it takes to do a dns lookup is WAY too long for continuous ip lookups, and the size of the database and chains requires explaining where to find ip address X is too long and updates WAY too much to be accurate and/or kept.

    Lookups are easiest if you know “I lookup .uk addresses at this particular server in England” because that particular “ authoritative DNS server” only really handles its own little segment of lookups.

    There is no such hierarchy in ip addresses, and they can’t really be cached for long.

    You would have to continually know and update all of them. And we sorta do in the larger routers, but keeping that up to date at the edges would require a TON of bandwidth.

    dual_sport_dork,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    Notwithstanding the instant privacy nightmare this would create, essentially abolishing online anonymity overnight, this is kinda-sorta what MAC addresses are already. As to why MAC addresses can be spoofed so easily without any real impact on anything, refer to my first statement.

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