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Alexmitter, in What do you think is responsible for lemmy’s growth over other alternatives like KBin and Tildes?
Alexmitter avatar

As someone who first switched to lemmy, and then quickly switched to kbin due to rampant de-federation in the lemmy world, I say I just first heard about lemmy.
But, Kbin is much more modern, and spectating the changes done in the last days alone, it moves fast and attracts many developers while all lemmy 0.18 did was breaking federation with kbin. I can fully recommend the switch to Kbin, its that good.

There is also the issue of Lemmy being developed by a group of genocide denying tankies.

About Tildes, it seems to be more of a clone of Digg in the old days.

Frostwolf, avatar

Thanks will give kbin a second look. Already made an account there just to “reserve” my username :)

Although to be fair, initial impressions are quite good already. :)

InLikeClint avatar

Your name is pretty badass

genoxidedev1 avatar

I personally also went with Lemmy first but switched to Kbin after 2 days because I preferred it's interface (as well as the full transparency on up/downvotes).

I heard about Tildes way before all the API stuff went down (like 2021-ish) but a text only platform just never was my cup of tea, personally.

sab, (edited )
sab avatar

I have never heard of Tildes before, but checked it out now since you said it's text only.

I actually kind of like the look of that site - would have loved to see it as a federated text-only alternative to Lemmy and kbin!

Seraph avatar

It's for all these reasons I'm fascinated Kbin hasn't received a larger influx of new users. It seems truly the easiest to easily switch from Reddit, you just need a browser.

Alexmitter avatar was not really ready to accept a large user amount until a few days ago when they did a large update to the infrastructure, also a little more then a week ago the site still had stability issues and would error out a lot. That just changed and now it is ready to grow faster. But, so far 51k users on already.

sab avatar

Arguably it's probably still not ready - I have heard rumours that running a kbin instance is still much more complicated than Lemmy, and that moderation tools are still somewhat lacking. Which probably explains why there are currently more Lemmy instances out there than kbin.

The confusing thing is that despite this, seems spectacularly well moderated at the mement. I guess that's partly because ernest is a champion, and partly because it didn't have to deal with the same insane influx of users that Lemmy has.

Still - I think the slow growth model benefits kbin quite nicely, and with federation it doesn't really matter to the feasibility of the platform whether people are here or on Lemmy. :)

Roundcat avatar

Honestly, I've appreciated the smaller community size here. Sure there are less niche communities with actual users like reddit, but there is just a much smaller concentration of idiots here than other social media sites, which makes actually talking about shit fun, rather than infuriating.

Part of the reason I stuck around even after all the redditors swam back is because I like the company here much more.

kbity avatar

Well, there's the thing, you need a browser. You'd be surprised how many newer Reddit users access the site primarily or even exclusively on their phones, and who tend to use apps rather than their mobile browser.

snooggums avatar

I use kbin primarily on a browser (firefox) on mobile. My only complaint is the side menu options for aubscribing/blocking being located at the bottom of the page instead of higher up.

aebrer avatar

If you press the hamburger menu button at the top it opens a sidebar that has a subscribe button as well!

snooggums avatar

Oh sweet! Wonder if I was blind and didn't see it or if it was one of the recent changes.

Now I have no complaints!

aebrer avatar

Lol! It also took me forever to notice it, it was driving me crazy and I just started thinking there must be a better way lol

JoeCoT avatar

Artemis is in the works for a native android client, but, also, kbin is a Progressive Web App on mobile. By that I mean, you can go to the site with chrome, firefox, etc, click the menu, and find "Install" or "Install App". That will give you an icon to put on your home screen, which will just open the site like a standalone app. But using your browser. Which means if you use Firefox mobile, you can still use extensions and user scripts and such if you want to.


Using the PWA really sucks on iOS but that is mostly Apple's fault


Kbin already is, it was very much a side project by Ernest that was no where near as mature as Lemmy. As it stands it is growing extremely fast, proportionally it is way more active and grows faster than Lemmy itself. iirc is neck and neck with Lemmy World.


I wouldn’t say defederation is rampant, but there were a few very high profile examples that hit right when people were new. Specifically, Beehaw/LW and Exploding Heads/everyone. Plus the whole thing about NSFW content and types.

While it’s true that many of the original devs have problematic views, it’s not really meaningful. The software is open source, there are tons of new developers (with varying views), and the code has nothing to perpetuate their ideas. In fact, they are pretty isolated on their own instance (Lemmygrad) since everyone defederates them almost immediately.

Alexmitter avatar

Besides lemmygrad and explodingheads which are truly legitimate cases, defederation just hurts everyone. New users just expect to sub to the communities they like on reddit. That includes NSFW because that simply is something people want, and it never was an issue on reddit. The whole discussion on larger lemmy is childish and prude.

And about the developers, lemmygrad is largely isolated, but is not and those same tankies run that. In fact its also the only lemmy instance that blocks all kbin instances via blocking the kbin user-agent. The development is also still largely steered by those tankies.


The NSFW stuff was/is a bit more complicated than it might appear on the surface. A lot of instances do not allow NSFW. No judgement, it is what it is. But people on those instances could sub to NSFW communities elsewhere, primarily LemmyNSFW. Less so now, but for a while it was common for those posts/communities to not be tagged NSFW, which caused them to show up on All for people that didn’t want to see it.

Then there was the question about types of NSFW content. Even people that enjoy your standard porn categories had lines they didn’t want crossed in their feed. Specifically animated/cgi CSAM and scat. The former is illegal in some jurisdictions, and caused a different instance (name withheld) to be widely defederated. The latter was more of an issue with limited tools, but the result was the same- either LemmyNSFW blocks that (at least until better tools are available), or they also get cut off.

Alexmitter avatar

I am not even speaking about LemmyNSFW and the discussion around what should be allowed on there and the discussion if they allow CSAM or not. It hit me when my favorite furry focused instance got blocked from which was my home on lemmy because it has two mild NSFW communities on there. Nothing illegal, nothing legally questionable. Still de-federated.


Sounds like you joined one of the anti-porn instances. I can’t read German, so I can only guess that the rules say that, but it’s not obvious on Join-Lemmy. I really wish they’d include some meaningful detail on their standards for fed/defend, since that’s what really matters. Instead we have that garbage about matching your values, and each one has a one-liner about who they are.



Nepenthe avatar

Assuming they mean the thing with the loli. There was some poll or something about what was allowed, but if I recall, things that were visibly meant to be children was not too well received. They settled on allowing porn of people that looked youngish but not verifiably underage, because the consensus was it could be hard to tell.

Obviously a polarizing issue. One side wants scorched earth on anything under 35, severely limiting half of porn and almost all of Japanese porn. Other side wants to know if it's logically illegal to date short people now.


Ah, thanks. Google wasn't helping.

Other side wants to know if it's logically illegal to date short people now.

Bit of a tangent, but I've noticed a bit of an over-correction with the age thing. Back in the 'good' old days, a grown ass man like 40 year old Seinfeld would date a sixteen year old, and it would be tolerated or accepted. Obviously icky in retrospect and it's good that it's now illegal. But now you'll often read people say online that a 35 year old dating or even being attracted to a 25 year old is a red flag. I mean, it may not be ideal, and age gaps can cause issues (IRC women who date older men are more likely to be abused), but adults finding adults attractive or dating isn't necessarily creepy.

I do find porn where a petite 20+ actress is clearly pretending to be younger quite problematic though. It's not so much what they look like, but how they act. Like Piper Perri, the small blonde woman from that meme with her sitting on the couch with the black guys. Looks really young even though she's 30. As you say, there's a lot of porn like that.

Obviously even having this discussion and discussing the nuances of it can make you seem really creepy, and as you say make the discussion polarising. A bit like deciding to have a discussion about how to solve Israeli-Palestinian conflict on your first day, no one sensible wants to have it whatever side of the argument they may fall, and I get why many people would not want to see anything even remotely questionable pop up in their feed even if the actors are in their 20s. If only that they don't want to have to explain why they're subscribed to that content to their significant other, family or friends.


Child Sexual Abuse Material, basically the current term for child porn. is completely right on all of it. There is a missing detail that loli (along with a few other questionable/objectionable subs) were banned from LemmyNSFW, and went to a different one that promised to be less restrictive, and is widely defederated because of it.

(Side note: While it can be difficult/impossible to draw the line based on appearances, these were clearly and obviously meant to be depictions of children, and often very young children)


While it can be difficult/impossible to draw the line based on appearances, these were clearly and obviously

Ugh. Why am I not surprised?

I think there's a discussion to be had about questionable porn, like I mentioned in a comment above someone like Piper Perri (of sitting on a couch with black guys behind her meme fame) is nearing thirty. I get that people wouldn't want something featuring an actress like her in their feed because she looks younger, but I also get why people would find it draconian to ban it as she is an adult woman.

But you can't really have a nuanced discussion on where to draw the line, and end up having to err on the side of caution, because of the creeps.

Reminds me a bit of discussing free speech or Israel. There are nuances, and the line is blurry, but nuanced discussion is impossible, because before you know it you're agreeing with someone with a swastika tattoo on his forehead.


You are correct that there’s overlap of users with, but I don’t see much of the offensive content coming from there. If nothing else, they put their masks on when on that instance. I’m sure there are people on EH with alts elsewhere, but they aren’t given the free reign to cause the same problems. is no longer a recommended instance, and probably won’t be again. But yes, I agree with you that the confusion caused by defederation is a bad thing.

Does some of them being tankies have an effect on the code?

sab, (edited )
sab avatar

Worth noting that is also run by the developers as their general instance (while Lemmygrad is the tankie one). It's easily forgotten at least for kbin users though, as federation with it has been somewhat broken for a while now.

samwise avatar

Seconding the kbin love. It’s closest to the Reddit experience for me and I don’t mind using my browser for it on my phone.

Alexmitter avatar

A API is in the works, and once that happened apps should pop up like they do for Lemmy.

Anomander avatar

About Tildes, it seems to be more of a clone of Digg in the old days.

It may resemble digg 1.0, but it's intended as a spiritual successor to pre-diggpocalypse reddit. It's a project by the guy who originally built Automod and is very much like Reddit was just prior to the launch of the subreddit system - two years before digg 4.0 launched and the refugees started arriving.

Intended to be more of a wide-open commons than a platform for subdivided or niche communities.

Tildes has very limited adoption during the reddit protests because it's on an invite system and doesn't want a huge influx of new people all at once, for all that it is accepting and even seeking growth over time.


It looks dead.

You can't even join unless you know someone, to recover your password you need to send an email, and the most upvoted post has 500 votes.

The about section has a philosophy section which likely took longer to write than was taken designing the website, and one of the top posts is about how they're going reorganise everything into their equivalent of subreddits. What's the point if you only have 100 users?

Reddit thinks they don't need mods. Tildes seems to think they don't need users.

it's intended as a spiritual successor to pre-diggpocalypse reddit.

Because the guy who created it, seemingly doesn't get that times have changed. I mean, the nokia 3310 was a great phone in its day, but it's 2023.

And I get that they don't care, but if your main audience is former mods who like organising things without the interference of users, they're not going to have enough or sufficiently interesting content to attract critical mass and a wider audience.

At which point, you might as well turn your reddit replacement into a wordpress blog and have the same discussions you're having now in the comment section. Because unlike tildes, people are working on plugins which will allow wordpress to become fully part of the fediverse.

Anomander avatar

This reads a lot like you're kind of working to shit on them, though.

It looks dead.

Ok? I don't know how you'd get that impression and you don't really elaborate, but I don't really see what might lead to that impression.

You can't even join unless you know someone, to recover your password you need to send an email, and the most upvoted post has 500 votes.

Yeah. Invite systems are a valid solution when you're looking to limit the pace of growth, and social media sites like aggregators often want to rate-limit growth in order to avoid an Eternal September moment changing their culture. Password recovery is amusingly antiquated. Their scoring works different and the numbers don't translate 1:1.

The about section has a philosophy section which likely took longer to write than was taken designing the website, and one of the top posts is about how they're going reorganise everything into their equivalent of subreddits. What's the point if you only have 100 users?

Yeah. Welcome to Tildes, a site utterly dedicated to high-concept, high-content, participation and engagement - with near every aspect of its design based around discouraging low-bar contribution and encouraging effortposts. If you personally find a long philosophy section and a ultra-simple aesthetic to be disengaging to you - then they're probably working as intended, and you're just not the target demographic. They're reaching about the same growth point as Reddit did when it made that decision themselves, and from what he said in the announcement they're facing the same problems. They're sitting at numbers well above "100 users" though, - as mentioned, they're not trying to be a highly-active and super-busy space. Several thousand users on Tildes produce a much smaller total footprint than several thousand users on lemmy or kbin.

Because the guy who created it, seemingly doesn't get that times have changed. I mean, the nokia 3310 was a great phone in its day, but it's 2023.

And I get that they don't care, but if your main audience is former mods who like organising things without the interference of users, they're not going to have enough or sufficiently interesting content to attract critical mass and a wider audience.

At which point, you might as well turn your reddit replacement into a wordpress blog and have the same discussions you're having now in the comment section. Because unlike tildes, people are working on plugins which will allow wordpress to become fully part of the fediverse.

This is the part where it's just like ... did Demiorz kill your dog and fuck your wife or something? Because these read as if it's coming from a pretty personal set of feelings for you.

It's a website where you are not the target user. That's fine. You don't need to hate them for that. They don't need to change for you.

If this whole thing isn't personal between you and them and is simply about the fact that they're a 'reddit alternative' that isn't the Fediverse, I think playing Websites We Use like it's sports teams where our guys are the best and everyone else is shit is ... kinda juvenile.


My only gripe with kbin is that it’s made with PHP and lemmy is Rust. But it’s only a childish gripe, I know hahahaha

Alexmitter avatar

You should always use the language you are most comfortable with, and for ernest that simply is PHP. Its not what I would have chosen either, but things like the facebook and telegram backends are in PHP and they certainly work very well.

Haus avatar

I've been using both kbin and a lemmy instance since the blackout. Both have been fine overall, but kbin has a slight edge in usability.

OpenStars avatar

A fantastic answer, though I'll add that OP is likely unaware that the vast majority of the "growth" on Lemmy is actually due to bot accounts. Which is somewhat irrelevant as it is still an enormous platform even after accounting for that.

Also I saw that r/ModCoord leaned more towards Lemmy, seemed somewhat biased against Kbin, and was reportedly enormously biased against Squabbles even to the point of deleting posts trying to talk about it (which not being able to check deleted posts anymore, I did not try to verify). That would make sense then that that could be why people heard about Lemmy before hearing about Kbin.

Plus the mobile app too - although I'm mostly happy with the browser view of kbin (for reading, though writing comments in it is a huge pain).

Lunyan avatar

Yeah i heard of Lemmy first, but when I found out about the developers being tankies I switched to Kbin. I actually prefer Kbin a lot now! It's obviously still earlier in development but I think it shows more promise.

Hypx avatar

There is also the issue of Lemmy being developed by a group of genocide denying tankies.

That’s probably the one thing that will catch up to them. I think there will inevitably be a hard-fork of the codebase in order to get away from the original devs.


I have an account on both. But I timed myself for about 5 minutes on both Kbin and Lemmy (yes I am that kind of person) to see which I found more intuitive, fun etc and just felt like Kbin worked better for me. Just feels more natural somehow

But it's also good that there's different options for different people and everyone's not just having to use one centralised website like the one most of us have just come from...

I have also signed up to Squabbles which is another centralised service, kind of a cross between Twitter and Reddit. It's so-so, but a lot more interesting than tildes

marsara9, in Will Lemmy posts be searchable on Google? avatar

So I've been working on a solution for this.

As I see it Google and others are going to have a hard if not impossible time to incorporate the fediverse, and the fact that the same content can exist on multiple servers.

So I'm working on a search engine specifically build, for Lemmy at least. Where it'll take you to whatever your preferred instance is when tapping on a search result.

I hope to have a MVP up and running in a few more days.


Please pop a reminder here. Commenting for a bump.

CosmicSploogeDrizzle, avatar

Search their name on GitHub and you'll find it. Star it to follow.


Can the reminder bots be migrated too?


Interesting. I hadn't even thought about how the fact that instance1.[post] and instance2.[post@instance1] is essentially the same thing and how search engines would handle it. Interested in what you come up with!

marsara9, avatar

Thanks. If you do some digging you can find the project on GitHub but note that it's a work in progress still. The UI is lacking and it's rough around the edges but it's "working". And I still need to do some optimizations on the crawler itself, etc....

It's also going to be completely self-hostable just like Lemmy, etc...

yasuocidal avatar

Hey, can you dm me the git link, i would like to contribute if i can : )

CosmicSploogeDrizzle, avatar

Search their name on GitHub


Do you mean the ‘crawler’ repo?

Spliffman1, avatar


klyde, avatar

That sounds awesome. Can't wait to see it.


Lmk once it’s up

static avatar

The mastodon crowd was verry anti on search engines, and killed projects like this.
But yea, do it! I think the lemmy/kbin crowd would mostly like it


Can’t emphasize enough how important this is for the growth of Lemmy. Many people I know only access Reddit through google searches.

marsara9, avatar

Yep and I'm one of them. Go look me up on Reddit and I think I have maybe 20 posts over the 14+ years I was on the site. ...joined Lemmy and immediately got frustrated that I couldn't find anything. So I figured I take a crack at it. Especially since I couldn't see how Google would ever be able to link me to my instance. Let alone make it easy to search the entire fediverse without having to write out every possible site, with new ones popping up every day.


I wonder if it's possible to have a sophisticated search engine similar to Google's, with BERT and kNN or vice versa. It would be the closest thing to Google search but specifically for Lemmy posts.


Easier to find a Reddit post through Google than by Reddit search.

minnieo avatar

we need a search engine for the entire fediverse, it would be a game changer

chainsawrobot avatar

If this guy changes the internet include me in the screenshot.


I’ll invest in seed funding stage. 😂


I can see this being helpful

(commenting so I can bookmark)


Shit dude, that'd be a sweet little tool.


This would be awesome!

Doll_Tow_Jet-ski avatar

That is great. Thanks for the initiative. Have you considered contacting the people at DuckDuckGo so that that search engine can access Lemmy/Kbin content?

meekah, avatar

IDK, isn't it the same for reddit? It also encourages crossposting, so the same content is on there several times. Maybe I don't understand the fediverse well enough yet, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

ClarkDoom, in How are lemmy and other fediverse platforms profitable?

One of the points of federated and decentralized social media is that there’s no need to profit. The concept is that communities are built by individuals instead of a central institutions and the communal gain is what incentivizes folks to host servers and participate. I see it as a similar ecosystem as the open source software community who constantly gives everything away for free because it serves the common good, enables faster innovation and widens the spread of knowledge that makes everyone more successful/efficient at the end of the day. If these decentralized social networks can provide the same level of benefit as Reddit, I.e. people adding “Reddit” to their search queries to get first hand answers, I think that’s the singularity point at which people will realize giant social network corporations are completely unnecessary. I can’t wait. Seems inevitable to me because the entire business model of the current centralized networks is unsustainable - part of the reason you see Reddit making such drastic moves regarding their API or Meta investing in anything and everything outside of social media or Twitter throwing unnecessary digital products at the wall and hoping people pay for some of them. Once decentralized social networks are mainstream the ad target pool is going to be greatly affected and these companies will collapse under their own weight if they haven’t pivoted to something else.

AttemptNo209 avatar

What's the general consensus as far as fear for future profiteering? Right now these platforms are great because the are run by people who genuinely care. Do you think there is any risk of this growing so much that federated content reaches the front page of search engines, followed by advertisers wanting space here? Or what about risks like reddit gold which was initially just a fun add on, which then became a "temporary" paid feature, which ended as a full scale scam.

Anyway, I love what we have for now, I just want to know what everyone else is speculating for the future.


Meta, a well-known for-profig company are gearing up to join the Fediverse, reaction is mixed, some server operators seem keen on welcoming them, some cautiously optomistic while others want nothing to do with Meta at all.

In terms of paid features, might be a thing down the line but it will very from server to server. Cool extra statuses (e.g. Wow I'm a gold tier superstar supporter on this instance) likely won't appear on other instances unless they decide to include something in the federation protocol that would display it.


The thing with the Fediverse is that things like this aren't really possible. The creators of Lemmy are pretty anti-capitalist, so the source-code won't ever support ads.

An instance admin could try to modify it to incude Ad Sense, but the users would just reject that instance and move to a free one.

I personally wouldn't mind premium features, like animated emotes and stuff for people that pay for monthly subscriptions, but again, things like that don't work in the fediverse because they won't be supported on every instance.

Maybe there will be some creative solutions that get made, but it's highly unlikely due to how things are setup.

XanXic, in Why all of a sudden tech companies are not being favorable to their users?

I’d say because it’s in the air. Obviously companies watch each other. Like the layoffs in January. The initial wave was the companies that needed to do it and had been planning it for awhile. Then when there was blood in the water everyone was doing it because then they aren’t big mean company, they are just another company doing layoffs right now. Lost in the crowd. It’s already come out some companies did it purely because big companies like Twitter and Google did it.

But we are seeing a big increase in anti-consumer moves because there seems to be no backlash. Like there’s the vocal minority, but it seems by and large a huge amount of the customers for these tech companies are unwilling to move away.

Every time Twitter does something some move off Twitter, and they get such growth! But then eventually stuff like Mastadon’s activity has a noticeable decline over time and Twitter carries on. Some people go back, some quit Twitter entirely. But these are fractions of a percentage probably. They still have the biggest celebrities and a crap ton of users.

Netflix just cracked down on password sharing, in a move that people were calling foolish. The outcry was everywhere and anytime Netflix was mentioned was 20 comments saying they cancelled that day. But subscriptions are up, Netflix won.

YouTube has been pushing more and more ads on users, there isn’t as big as a direct backlash. Like there was more outcry on removing the dislike button. Which…no one cares now lol. But YouTube pushing’s more ads, and they don’t seem to be loosing money for it. I’m sure they are trying to find the ‘breaking point’ for customers. But either people really are willing to put up with 2 30second unskippable ads every 5 minutes or premuim subscriptions are skyrocketing as they ruin the free experience.

WB killed a ton of shows outright, basically burned a bunch of media and shuttered a ton of HBO Max’s staff. People upset… Twitter all a buzz. Now it’s back to HBO is the best streaming service (Which it is lol)

Like it just keeps going. I think it’s just a combination of companies making terrible blunders steal the spotlight from each other and society as a whole has a 3 day memory. The Reddit protests are already cold news because Twitter just DDOS’d itself. People who saw all this with Reddit and call it disgusting moves by the company and the unspoken bond is broken, always end their diatribe with something like “Well I’ll just use old.Reddit with an ad blocker” like they are winning when they still provide Reddit with their usage.

People like us who walk away and move to spots like this are the minority of a minority. It’s up in the air how many will stay and how many will slowly forget their outrage at Reddit and go back.


People! What a bunch of bastards!


It’s up in the air how many will stay and how many will slowly forget their outrage at Reddit and go back.

If I wasn’t already that truth would make me depressed.

MisterMoo avatar

Agreed. These companies learned that internet outrage is generally indicative of nothing actionable.

Kill_joy, (edited ) in Do I understand correctly that I have to subscribe to 5 different NoStupidQuestions on 5 different instances?
Kill_joy avatar

This is how the world works. On Reddit there were multiple subs that covered the same topics, but the mods developed different cultures and vibes through moderation tactics and sub policies.

If you want a car, there are different companies who all provide one but with different options. Same goes for ISPs, TV networks, restaurants, and schools.

It isn't at all a new concept and I'm not sure why people coming from reddit continue to get stuck on it. Subscribe to them all and as they mature unsub from the ones that develop into something you don't feel like you need.

Posting to all of them will be easier when cross posting is possible on Kbin (it is already possible on Lemmy) but developments like that often take time.

Adding an edit as I've thought a bit more: I think it's important, for those coming from reddit, to truly understand why the Fediverse exists. The intention is to be open source. To ensure that there is no single source of power. There are 'unlimited' options (instances, magazines, etc.) to ensure that it cannot be swayed, corrupted.

This is why people are coming from Reddit - you are seeing what happens when one corporation has the power and sets the terms.

I think it's lovely to dip your toes here, ask questions, and see if you'd like to stick around. But please do understand the intention is not to be Reddit 2.0. We should not try to turn it into that.

MeowdyPardner avatar

I think this answer is the most accurate. People get too hung up same names on different servers. There will always be multiple versions of a community whether they have the same name on different servers or whether one of them snagged the og name and others prefixed with Real_x / True_x. Imo I like it this way better because there's less favoritism to the one that comes first / people can't universally squat on a community name

FaceDeer avatar

I think the key for people who are confused about this is that it's necessary to consider the part after the "@" to be just as much a part of the community name as the part before it. There's no such thing as a community named "No Stupid Questions", with no @whatever after it, because all community names inherently include that portion.

As an alternative solution there are issues for "multireddit"-like features, this issue for Lemmy, and Kbin has one here.

Kill_joy avatar

Very well said. Great call out.


It’s a sticking point because it’s new to people who only have experience with reddit after it became more mainstream. Lemmy, Kbin, Mastodon, etc. and how they all work together isn’t a super simple concept. For all the shortfalls of a centralized social media website, the prevention of multiple separate communities having the exact same name is convenient and simple. It prevents duplicated posts. You want to capture all of the traffic in one place. That’s why link aggregation sites and blogs exist, so in order to do that you have to subscribe to all of them. But then there’s a pretty significant chance you’ll see the exact same post cross-posted to the other 3 communities…which would annoyingly bloat your feed obviously.


the prevention of multiple separate communities having the exact same name is convenient and simple

Except for when those communities have names that aren't intuitive in any way, or the intuitively named communities are full of off-topic content.


I’m not going to say that reddit is the bastion of how to properly run a website. Clearly r/trees r/marijuana r/earthporn so on and so forth is super unintuitive, but until the concept of how the fediverse works becomes more common knowledge, we’ll have to help new members along. It’s taken me a little more than a week to even get remotely comfortable with how it works.

I only just learned today that I can’t see content from users on instances like lemmygrad because the instance that I joined has it blocked. I didn’t even really realize what I was doing at the time. Fortunately it’s something I also would have done, but my point still stands that its not something that’s immediately apparent or intuitive.


And you can't see content from Facebook on Reddit, or from Twitter on Instagram.

The part that's unintuitive is that you can see content from users on or


I think that magnifies the point I was trying to make as well. Not many people understand that and are two separate “websites” in the same way that Facebook and Instagram are. They’re both associated with Lemmy and there’s no “” per se.

Rhaedas avatar

Even doing this for a month now I still forget that a lot and treat posts like Reddit posts. Being a Kbin user, I have to constantly stop myself from replying to questions about Lemmy and app suggestions for features that I already have thanks to script mods. And that's even with mods that highlight the post isn't from Kbin!

TheSpookiestUser, avatar

It isn’t at all a new concept and I’m not sure why people coming from reddit continue to get stuck on it.

Because having communities with an identical name on different instances will fracture the community. Given the hallmarks of the fediverse this is practically intended, to my understanding, but it is bad for initial growth and coherence of posts. This happened on Reddit as well, of course it did, but the way instances are completely separate and communities can have the exact same name compounds the issue.


Because having communities with an identical name on different instances will fracture the community.

They're different communities on different websites, though. Trying to force them all into one space is erasing all communities but one, just for the sake of having to see an address, or for pretending you're not missing out on something when you ignore 99.9% of posts and comments that end up in the space.

1 million users discussing a topic spread out across 1000 communities of 1000 active users leads to more vibrant and meaningful discussions on that topic than having 1 million of them all crammed into one place, shouting and competing for slivers of attention. And no one will miss anything of deep value in the 999 other communities, because people will cross-post the good bits anyway.


Yeah let's get to that million first before splitting everyone. It's really not helpful in the current state.

And there are actually options besides "this is how it currently works so it's good". Like some kind of federated communities/magazines where when you post to one it's posted to all of them. And I'm not saying it would be technically easy to implement, I have no idea, but I'm saying there are always room for improvement.

Near-identical communities/magazines with the same exact goal isn't practical.


I think a lot of users on Reddit (including some who gave migrated to kbin/Lemmy) haven’t experienced a lot of the forum and IRC era of the internet.

As you’ve mentioned, “fractured” communities can actually be beneficial since each contribution is that much more valuable and nuances can actually exist between the similar communities. It allows things like the instance I’m on where I know I’m more likely to get a Canadian perspective in the communities on versus other instances. To me that’s a huge feature over centralized platforms where those nuances would get drowned out.

TheSpookiestUser, avatar

For the record I don’t think what OP describes would be right. But I am certain there are better ways to mesh together disparate feeds into one and have all discussion at least be cross-referenced - something better than just crossposting. Because while

1 million users discussing a topic spread out across 1000 communities of 1000 active users leads to more vibrant and meaningful discussions on that topic

May be true, it doesn’t hold true at smaller scales; a hundred users spread out across ten communities of ten active users each is pretty much a ghost town.


Indeed, there's a viability threshold for a community, and it's probably on the order of 100 active users. Having them spread out isn't doing any of them any favours.

But that points to the need for and importance of discovery tools. Community tags, better search, better federation tools, better back-linking and cross-posting tools, user-defined lists, etc. The Misskey/Calckey "Antenna" saved-search feature would actually be very powerful in the threadiverse, particularly if coupled with community and post tags, and would really improve the visibility of new or undersized communities to those who are looking for them.

But forced amalgamation across independent and independently operated websites definitely isn't one of them.

TheSpookiestUser, avatar

I don’t think it should be forced, but I think some kind of option for “amalgamation” should be available, either user-side (multireddit-esque thing, etc.) or community-side.


If communities want to amalgamate, they can just collectively choose to use a different community. Negotiate mod status for the immigrating mod team, and abandon the old instance. With small communities, this is feasible. With large ones, it's not, as a significant number of members won't want to amalgamate. And they shouldn't have to.

At the user level, lists and antennae would give users a lot of power to shape their streams.

FaceDeer avatar

There is no "the community", though. These names don't "belong" to any one specific group of people, there's no "there can be only one" mandate.

As an example of why "there can be only one" is a bad thing, there's /r/StarWars and /r/SaltierThanCrait over on Reddit. When the Disney Sequel trilogy came out there were some Star Wars fans who liked it and some who didn't, and it became such a contentious subject that those who didn't like it were literally driven out of /r/StarWars and had to create /r/SaltierThanCrait so that they could discuss their opinions without being downvoted into oblivion or outright banned. Why should they have had to give up the name StarWars, though?

Another example is /r/Canada and /r/OnGuardForThee, which was a similar sort of schism - /r/Canada got "taken over" by right wing moderators and those who weren't of that particular political bent ended up having to make a subreddit with an unrelated name. Why should one group and not the other get to name their community "Canada"?

TheSpookiestUser, avatar

You make good points. I think name squatting and squabbling over who is the “real” community was prevalent on Reddit, and the way it works here fixes that.

But I still think that a downside of decentralization like this is splitting the activity up, sometimes unnecessarily, and making discovery of new communities just a bit harder. It’s not a deal breaker by any means, but I think it’s an issue that will have to be addressed either by Lemmy UI updates or third parties.

FaceDeer avatar

There are feature requests in both Lemmy and Kbin's issue trackers for "multireddit"-like functionality, that might help when implemented.

TheSpookiestUser, avatar

It would help, but frankly I think there needs to be more - both because it would be helpful and because, up to this point, Lemmy is mostly following in Reddit’s footsteps in terms of features.

Consider a “multipost” option, on top of the existing crosspost. Multiposting something to another community would push the post as-is (no edits allowed) there, then collate all comments across all communities it had been multiposted to into one comment section displayed on all of them. The original community each comment chain originated on could be marked on the parent comment, and child comments could automatically be routed so they originate from the parent community of the chain.

Just spitballing here, but something like this would help bridge the gap a lot more than just a multireddit port.

niktemadur avatar

there's /r/StarWars and /r/SaltierThanCrait over on Reddit

Those two spaces had differing stances.
There also the case of InterestingAsFuck as opposed to DamnThatsInteresting, because why the fuck does "Fuck" have to be in the title?

But then there's shameless karma-farming duplicates, like ComedyCemetery and ComedyNecromancy.

Rhaedas avatar

Starting up is always hard. Short of copying over a subreddit to a declared official new home (which did happen for a few), you have to build up from nothing. I think it's come a long way in only the last few weeks. I've already seen a post complimenting the response time and answers from a Lemmy community when the Reddit posts went ignored, and also I've seen one community owner realize that the other communities of similar names are doing much better and decide to close up. Another group decided the best solution was not to try and pull in other communities, but act as a general discussion that also served to link up the many specific niche communities distributed throughout Lemmy and Kbin. Lastly the attacks on .world and .ml serve as a reminder of the benefits of having duplicity. What if one of those had been a long-time established home of a community with millions of posts and got wiped from such a thing?

This is evolution in action, what works best will prevail, and part of that will be redundancy and adaptive ability.

uhauljoe, avatar

This was really well said!!

I’m here from Reddit and that’s what I’ve been doing, just subscribing to whatever I can find for each subreddit I’m losing, and then whichever one seems like it’s either most active or has the most quality content stays and I unsub from whatever sublems aren’t providing content.

This OP seems pissed off about subbing to multiple sublems that are the same but like…you don’t have to. Go use Reddit? lol

The multiple sublems thing is kinda the point of Lemmy, there isn’t one big overlord controlling everything

Undearius, avatar

when cross posting is possible on Kbin (it might already be on Lemmy, not sure)

For your own awareness, cross-posting is available on Lemmy.

Kill_joy avatar

Nice! Thanks for the info :)


It seems to just copy the text with an intro bit, though, which doesn’t feel great.


Cross instance communities or a way to stich these places together better needs to happen though. Splinter groups making their own community is fine, but there needs to be some main communities for things.

It’s not just a make it more like reddit need. If decides to defederate like beehaw (or goes down), then all that content is gone from lots of other people, and the fediverse as a whole loses. If there exists a way to blend communities, then maybe people only notice less posts on memes rather than just an empty void.

It’s also a huge discovery problem, some people are going to think there isn’t an active NSQ community, and maybe try making yet another, because the didn’t find the one active community. It’s also possible that there’s 5-10 small/tiny- communities that could become a single thriving community of they were able to actually discover and coordinate with each other.

snooggums avatar

Discovering new communities that share names and topics will be the biggest core improvement in my opinion. Like having a way for an instance to poll all federated instances for communities with the same name or with a name that includes a term to easily add would be awesome.

Then the ability to combine them into subsets of your siscriptions by whatever topic you want would be awesome. Like instead of subscriptions as a while you could have 'Tabletop Gaming' with various 40k, CAV, BattleTech, and other games grouped how you want or subgroups for each game.

cinabongo, (edited ) in How does an app like Threads get access to financial, political, health, religious or browsing info through your phone's OS. What is the actual source of that data?

From what I know having worked in adtech,

  • they collect as much information as they can from the device such as location from GPS, interests from follows, likes dwell time on posts, and other information you knowingly or unknowingly provide. This includes scraping information from photos and videos you upload to the app. Eg, you upload a picture of an expensive bag with the caption “my new bag” - the bag brand can be determined and assessed algorithmically.
  • the above extends to websites you visit with in-app browsers and the actions you take while on those pages
  • deduce what they can’t eg where you live & work based where you spend time during the day vs night,your real life interests based on places you visit eg gym, fast food places, church etc. Also they apply complex algorithms to relatively accurately deduce anything you don’t directly provide. Eg if you disable accurate location, they can figure it out based on the ip address(es) you connect to the app from (geolocation algorithms) .
  • and what they can’t deduce is bought from third parties. Those are companies normal people don’t know exist whose sole purpose is scraping and categorising information - sort of similar to credit agencies but different. In this case, they take what they know about you and send it to this third party which then returns eveything they have that’s related. Eg the app (threads) might send your email and username and get a response containing your previous home address (say scraped from some insecure government website)

With the above, even without knowing your name (this can easily be determined) , they are able to know enough about you to determine the kind of person you are, with whom you interact, where you go, your political affiliations, job, salary estimate etc and sell it to advertisers. This is usually sold as “audiences” but given the tools provided to advertisers, it’s easy to create hyper targeted ads and recommendations (remember Cambridge Analytica).

We voluntarily give up a lot more information than we realise.

And remember, the smartest people on the planet work at these companies, so the above is nothing in comparison to what behemoths like Facebook, Google, Tencent, etc are capable of.

zlatiah avatar

Second this!

Phones give out a lot of personal information on their own lol. On top of the phone, don't forget that social media apps like Threads also require you to login... with credentials stored at FB/Meta... that they can derive all the aforementioned information on, as well as other type of things (Amazon purchases? Stuff you watch on Google queries?...) by using some creative tracking technology. You basically gave them a dog tag to identify you whenever you sign up for services after all

For shittier apps like Thread, apparently they also do some weird stuff like forcing the app to be on once the OS boots, so... yeah.

Unhappily_Coerced, (edited )

I submit that the giving up of information is not voluntary, but instead is coerced through 1000s of pages of ToS and EULAs that are so convoluted that nobody actually has enough time to understand them. While the clicking of a box to agree to the terms is voluntary, the act of giving up the data itself is generally, similar to what you said, unknown to the end user.

I stand that these acts are acts of coercion and legislation should be put in place to either:

  • make the collection of the data outright illegal or "opt-out" by default
  • ensure that the people who generate the data benefit from it monetarily, instead of a simple granting of access to that which the ToS/EULA gatekeeper wouldn't allow without first blindly agreeing
bricks, (edited )

This is a really good oversight (see: insight, overview, etc). Honestly, for anyone actually interested in this stuff and what makes the internet tracking/advertising machine tick, take some of the HubSpot Academy’s courses. There’s definitely other courses out there, but the HubSpot ones are all free, and the topics aren’t hard once you get immersed in it.

Plus afterwards you can put the faux-certs on your resume and knife fight with the 20,000,000 other adtech people that just got laid off.


Not a native speaker and kind of OT, but isn’t it supposed to be “overview” rather than “oversight” in this case? Maybe not necessarily “overview”, but I think “oversight” would only mean mistake or supervision. I was just wondering.

bricks, (edited )

Probably. I write half my comments drunk, so I wouldn’t use them as a basis for ESL learning 🙃

It’s a good catch!! Apologies for any confusion.


Don’t forget, giving these apps access to your photos also opens up a puzzle of location data of where you spend your time and have visited


Imagine doing all that work and still lose money

I_Miss_Daniel avatar

This sort of makes it tempting to run everything in an emulated virtual machine that is streamed to your phone...

Each app in a separate instance...

Earthwormjim91, in What are tankies? What does sea-lioning mean?

Sealioning is the constant bad faith, feigning ignorance, asking for evidence of everything under the guise of “just asking questions”. Then ignoring any evidence presented and moving on to the next demand. Used to shut down discourse entirely.

Tankies are leftists that defend or deny the atrocities committed by authoritarian communist regimes like the Soviet Union or the CCP. It was first used to describe communists in Great Britain that defended the Soviet Union for using tanks to crush anti-communist revolutions.


It doesn’t have to be leftists, anyone who does that is a tankie.


If you like the USSR and Communist China, you’re probably a leftie.

  1. Probably ≠ all
  2. Nope, if you do (after Deng for China, after Stalin for USSR, for other time periods you could be a leftist) and have extensively learned about it you probably think you’re a leftist but you’re actually a rightist. Think about how exactly the sum of their policies align with left values more than right values.


  • Loading...
  • Aatube,

    Thank you for helping to spread Chinese, Soviet, and ableist propaganda. Plus you didn’t respond to that “probably” part.


    He’s not saying they’re right wing governments, just that they’re highly authoritarian, which is something that leftists, on average, tend to be against, so if someone claims to be “left” but supports Russia, they likely have a poor understanding of one of those things.

    Shit, avatar

    I mean it’s more of an up down issue and not a left right issue right? Most authoritarianism stuff ends up sounding the same. They both hate liberalism and want to stomp it out before they fight it out over the left right divide.

    FaceDeer avatar

    This is a major example of why I despise the left/right "spectrum" that is so universal in political discourse these days. These views are not simple enough to be defined along a one-dimensional axis like this.

    I'm increasingly fond of the 8 values test, which splits things up along four distinct axes. Still too few, but definitely far better than just one.

    Shit, avatar

    Thanks I like this test more than the other ones I’ve seen. I feel like it needs more questions but that’s the problem with all these tests.


    I got the following:

    50.6% on the economic axis towards equality, 59.4% on the diplomatic axis, towards nation. 50.4% on the civil axis, towards liberty 55.8% on the societal axis, towards tradition.

    Makes sense that I get called a Nazi multiple times on this god forsaken tankie-filled site.


    Like @shit (from shitjustworks, nice one) said, these don’t conflict. While I didn’t say anything about authoritarian (communism especially vanguardism is authoritarian and it never works out), I personally believe that modern China is right wing. For example, their current government wants to merge traditional values with law.

    Shit, avatar

    🫡 thanks


    Idk if I like this “left means anti authoritarian” thing I’ve seen floating around recently. By that interpretation right wing individualist anarchism is actually left wing, because though it is called right wing in the traditional sense of individualism v collectivism where collectivism is left wing, it is certainly against authority.

    Rather, I’m fine with this interpretation, but can we all get together and figure out whether or not “left” means “anarchism” or “collectivism?” This “it means either one of the two and people will just decide one is correct and deny the existence of the other definition and which one that is depends on who you’re talking to at that moment, and I won’t define it when askef, I’ll just act like you’re stupid for not knowing which one I choose to use today” shit is getting old and I’m like 99% sure it’s intentional as a technique to appear to win an argument without having any argument to speak of.

    Lenins2ndCat, avatar

    Nope, if you do (after Deng for China, after Stalin for USSR, for other time periods you could be a leftist) and have extensively learned about it you probably think you’re a leftist but you’re actually a rightist.

    So you think Jeremy Corbyn isn’t left? Lmao. What about Lula? Every Cuban politician?

    Think about how exactly the sum of their policies align with left values more than right values.

    This is you trying to re-align left vs right as culture instead of economic. It’s seriously america-brained bollocks and is not how anyone in the rest of the world views left vs right.

    Very_Bad_Janet, (edited )

    May I introduce you to the Far Right in America? They are often keen to downplay any Russian acts of aggression. ETA: Not saying that they would fit the definition of tankies, just that you don't have to be a leftist to (overtly or tacitly) support Russia.

    G.O.P.’s Far Right Seeks to Use Defense Bill to Defund Ukraine War Effort

    The group’s proposals have no chance of passage, but they have further mired the military spending bill in a partisan fight and highlighted Republican divisions over the war.

    JoumanaKayrouz, avatar

    Is that what sealioning is though?

    0235, avatar

    Never heard the phrase sealioning before, but I have seen it everywhere.


    Sealioning is specifically a reference to this comic strip from Wondermark

    Lenins2ndCat, (edited ) avatar

    Tankies are leftists that defend or deny the atrocities committed by authoritarian communist regimes like the Soviet Union or the CCP. It was first used to describe communists in Great Britain that defended the Soviet Union for using tanks to crush anti-communist revolutions.

    Ironically history has proven that decision to have been the correct one and even the soft-left here in Britain today acknowledges that the people who were called “tankies” originally when that happened were all completely correct.

    Edit: Downvoters literally defending against the stopping of what were literal actual fascist-led uprisings because they know absolutely nothing about european history.

    PugJesus avatar

    [Literal workers' revolution advocating multiparty elections, in which the transitional government is held by a supermajority of socialist parties]

    Tankies: "Is this fascism?"

    fucking lmao. Go lick boots elsewhere, red fash.

    palebluethought, in Is there any more ethical solution to our current circumstances than "murder all billionaires"?

    So, let’s put aside for a moment the rather shocking number of people casually advocating for murder in this thread.

    I want to talk instead about how everyone here is just talking for granted the notion that removing the billionaires, Republican politicians, or whatever “they” you care to think of, would be a solution, or even a positive step, for modern social ills.

    There’s a big undercurrent in almost any political discussion online, this implication that every one of the world’s problems actually has a super simple solution, that The Powerful could just snap their fingers and make it happen if they wanted to, and it’s only because of their greed etc that we have any problems that all. Obviously we live in a time of huge inequity and we’d be a lot better off if we found a good way to improve it.

    But many (most?) of our biggest problems are inherent to the challenge of keeping 8 billion people alive and happy in a hostile universe, and in fact nobody has ever had a perfect solution. Throwing the entire planet into chaos by causally throwing away human beings’ rights and leaving an enormous portion of the world’s capital in uncertain hands, ready to be seized by some other set of psychopathic opportunists who happen to be in a position to do so, certainly ain’t it.


    I'd add that the problem is also a societal context that prioritize consuming above all else. Not a good combo with 8 billion peeps.


    It works if you have strong guardrails. We currently do not. Though we're getting better, somewhat, in the West at least.

    TheOlympian avatar

    Guardrails can only be enforced by the largest concentration of power. Since power will concentrate to those who push up against those guardrails most, they're incentivized to remove them. This is the conclusion of capitalism.


    Democracy is supposed to help stave that off. Ideally we create a strong government that wants to retain control and it fights back the corporations. But it only works if we stay engaged.


    Even if it were possible for everyone to stay engaged with every important issue, which it isn't, we now live in an era where automated propaganda can reach the entire world and create the illusion of democracy. This illusion is created by drowning out actual people's voices. When we're able to do better at automated language translation, which is very soon, this will be an even bigger problem.

    You can see a lot of this in a lot of non-US English speaking countries where some people fly Trump flags or are sovereign citizens or buy into "The Great Reset" covid vaccination conspiracies despite their "evidence" not applying to their country's reality.

    Guardrails and democracy doesn't quite cut it when the people who have the power create the guardrails and disguise themselves as the majority.

    We need to change how we ascribe power, and for me that means changing how we ascribe rewards.


    None of that is particular to capitalism though. Why do you think changing that would change the way power loves power? Hell, the non capitalist countries of the world have even stronger propaganda than the capitalist ones.


    I'm not who you originally replied to, and I agree it's not specific to capitalism. I do think that capitalism does a great job of showing how money as a reward system and people's ability to purchase power can lead to horrible things.

    My personal take is that we need to re-evaluate what we reward and how we calculate value. But I acknowledge that's a very long term sort of thing, not an immediately actionable next step.

    Talaraine avatar

    The base problem is that those with the money can easily buy out those with political power. Until that ends, there's literally no other task before us. Kill the rich, or kill the least until they have a SMIDGEN of thought in their minds that taking a bribe might mean a bad end.

    Currently, there's no such mental block. Talk ALL you WANT. The law won't touch them.

    And I'm someone who doesn't want violence. I've just watched 40 years of it and seen no other solution.


    lol so the rich can buy out those with political power...but a bunch of angry peasants show up at their doors and you think they're suddenly helpless? They'll go out to the mob and say "I'll give $1 million each to the last 10 men standing" and the mob will destroy itself.

    Awhiskeydrunker avatar

    Well put. Things are bad for many, maybe most right now. But they are generally also better than they have been at any point in the history of organized civilization (not for every individual, but for an ever larger proportion of people). The climate being an exception, and the tearing at the fringes of both sides of the political spectrum becoming a little more visible/tangible. I don’t think the world of 10/15 years from now will look anything like the world we have today, and a lot will change. But you are probably right that it’s an oversimplification to just blame it on an elite cabal that runs the worlds governments by proxy.

    alternative_factor avatar

    They are actively putting the future of the entire human species at risk and your answer is just "well things can't be perfect lol". Things can't be perfect, but things CAN be better. To seriously assume that some lunatic like Elon Musk has humanity's best interest at heart is naive at best. I'm not saying we need to resort to violence, but we are clearly running out of time, and might even be out of time.

    RiikkaTheIcePrincess avatar

    What a load of shit. "Ohh, the poor rich people can't help it, they're doing their beesssttt, they can't just fix everything! It's such a haarrrdd probleemmmm!!"

    This garbage might be respectable by someone with no actual sense if "The Powerful" ever tried to fix anything, but they don't. They sit on unimaginable shitloads of money that people "imagine" could be put toward some beneficial purpose and do nothing but ruin Earth and ruin humanity through the influence it implies. Hell, these people can cause change without even spending any appreciable portion of "their" money and they still won't do any good for anyone.

    I'm disgusted that I even have to type any of this; bootlickers deserve no respect and "The Powerful" deserve worse. "Sit down and shut up unless you have a perfect fix for everything right now" while the fucking planet is burning is possibly the most asinine thing I've heard. Enjoy your navel-gazing, I guess. Let us know when you've figured everything out without hurting anyone "worth" more than a few million dollars.


    Hear, hear.

    I just don't get some people's mindset. Thousands - millions - of people die every year from causes that are either preventable through the application of money, or else can be directly laid at the feet of just these few individuals, but ohhh no, we can't let THEM be killed, that's an intolerable moral atrocity!

    be_excellent_to_each_other avatar

    There’s a big undercurrent in almost any political discussion online, this implication that every one of the world’s problems actually has a super simple solution, that The Powerful could just snap their fingers and make it happen if they wanted to, and it’s only because of their greed etc that we have any problems that all.

    You mean like when Musk said he'd solve hunger if someone told him how, then they told him how, and that it would require only a couple percent of his wealth, and he did jack shit?

    ProcurementCat, in Do you think the guys on the titanic submarine will be rescued?

    It's interesting how just 6 days ago, a boat with 750 people on board, including 100 kids, capsized near Greece, only 104 survived, and it's less of an issue than those billionaires


    It was an issue for a lot of international organizations, but Greece and EU made themselves look like fools


    I think it's because the story about a missing submersible is unusual, and moreover, it's about a rescue attempt. This makes it more interesting than many other, albeit more dreadful, news stories.

    vegivamp, avatar

    750 people drowning is also unusual, and there's also been rescue attempts.

    All these victims have loved ones, and i don't wish death on anyone, but for the billionaires I find it quite hard to care much.

    I still hope they're saved, though; and if they are I very much hope the experience will have changed them.


    Unfortunately it is not that unusual since the EU stopped Mare Nostrum to save money

    relative_iterator, avatar

    750 people drowning is also unusual

    It's terrible but not that unusual.

    Kantiberl avatar

    That's just not the same. Drowning is quick and if you don't save them immediately they're most likely dead. Slowly suffocating in a sub while the clock ticks and something can be done about it is a different story.

    Learn to care.

    vegivamp, avatar

    You're assuming they're suffocating, when the smallest fault in the hull's integrity would make the thing implode, killing them before they realized what was happening.

    Like everyone, my ability to care has limits. You can't worry and care about everything. I'll give my fucks for those who didn't grow rich exploiting others, thanks.


    And they were diving to look at the titanic, everyone's favourite maritime disaster.


    sure. It has nothing to do with the fact that in one of cases they are 5 billionaires while in the other one they are 750 poor migrants. No, totally not.

    berkeleyblue, avatar

    Not entirely no, I didn’t see any news outlet leading the story with “5 Billionaires missing after Submersible lost contact”. For quite some time we didn’t even know who was on board. It’s more the fact that boats in the Mediterranean sink all the time, it’s still tragic but we know that that’s an issue we have now (most people unfortunately seem to have decided that they do not care that much). A submersible going missing and the coast guards of 2 countries looking for them, while thei only have air for a couple days, no one knowing where they are and it involving the titanic guarantees clicks, it’s almost like a movie plot. The fact that they are wealthy is certainly not the reason for it though, it’s the circumstances surrounding it, it’s unusual. People also know how ships work and why they capsize, while most people don’t have the slightest idea how deep sea submersibles work.

    So yes, the ship capsizing and killing that many people is horrible and should get more attention, especially from the Goverments involved. It’s ridiculous that we let those poor people drown by the thousands and treat the ones who made it like scum. But I’m not convinced the Titanic story got traction BECAUSE the victims have money.


    so you think that 2 governments would had started spending millions if 5 migrants had somehow been trapped in the seabed of the Mediterranean?


    5 migrants? No fucking way. 5 average citizens of any developed nation? Sure. We perform expensive and resource intensive search and rescue operations for people lost in the wilderness or out at sea all the time. And once the media brings attention to it, there's a lot of pressure to keep the funding going, otherwise next election cycle people are going to remember the current leadership as "those guys who just left some poor people to die to save money."

    ivanafterall avatar

    I see your point, but I do think the poster above is right: "rescue" situations do tend to get a lot of media attention. The Thailand cave rescue and various mine collapses also spring to mind (Baby Jessica, anyone?). None of those involved particularly wealthy people (I don't think?) and they got some measure of global attention.


    really? The first point of information I found out was that it cost 250k to get on.

    "hey did you hear about the submarine that's lost?


    "It cost 250k to get on, to go see the titanic wreck"

    pretty much how my entire day went yesterday with various coworkers

    DudePluto, (edited )

    That may be true to your experience but for the first few days I heard about this story it had nothing to do with the who or how much it cost. Stories with novelty will always sell more than stories without much novelty. Edit: And I'm not saying that's right. The accident in Greece is a horrible tragedy, and we should value everyone's lives equally no matter how much wealth they have. There are legitimate points where we as a society turn a blind eye to the poor (always). But, this is not a story that's surprising why it's getting so much attention. It's gross how some people in this comment section are choosing to increase their hatred toward the rich rather than increasing their compassion for the poor

    ivanafterall avatar

    I agree with you, mostly, but you could also argue that the situation only exists/is only possible because they're wealthy (the same reason the only sub apparently capable of rescuing them is owned by another billionaire). But that doesn't diminish your point--were these somehow 5 poor people stuck at the bottom of the ocean in a sub near the Titanic, it would still probably get a lot of attention.


    The Thailand cave rescue was all over the news and they were poor.

    Its about novelty, nothing more nothing less.

    A bunch of rich ppl have died on Mt Everest this year, nobody gives a shit as its a common occurrence.


    It's the mystery, where are they, what's their condition, what's going to happen, etc. ? It's like watching a movie. We're shallow and just want to be entertained.


    People tend to care more about the stuff that happens closer to them, or is somehow related to them. You probably don't care all that much about the armed conflict in Mali between the government, ISIS and Wagner Group.


    if you live in europe, the Mediterranean sea is you know, right next to you. And way much closer than the distance of the titanic to the shore in America, which is about 1000 nautical miles.


    I don't know anything about Mali, which is closer to to me than Titanic, but I do know a lot about the Titanic.

    WhoRoger, avatar

    I don't disagree, but missing sub is an unusual phenomenon and mystery that gets people interested.

    I don't think the billionaires part is all that important, I didn't know about it until today. The Kursk, the kids trapped in a cave, the miners that have spent months in a mine, those were all news too.

    But yea immigrants from war-torn regions - nobody cares unless they have "blond hair and blue eyes".


    The Greece tragedy is lacking the irony and hubris of this.

    I mean, it's a tourist submersible that was aiming to bring billionaires to view the Titanic wreckage and it likely got wrecked itself. And they named the submersible Titan.

    The sub's company OceanGate was dinged by a former employee for all sorts of safety issues and they fired and sued him. There are also lots of choice quotes from the CEO (who happens to be on the vessel) about moving fast and breaking things, and regulations stifling innovation. So there's some possible karma involved.


    "OceanGate" sounds a lot like Heaven's Gate right now ;P


    And Watergate. Anything [something]gate is bad news.


    Cablegate was kind of good ;)

    vegivamp, avatar

    Ah, another dummkopf manager who thinks a software methodology can be applied to hardware.

    Well, better hope he can deploy the fix in production within the next what, 10 or so hours?


    That's what I'm more upset about.

    Who gives a shit about a couple of billionaires. Why does this have to be a world-wide news story? Why don't we care about the 100s of refugees that die all the time in maritime accidents and why are those things dominating the news?

    Time and time again we give the rich people all of our attention. Fuck that. We shouldn't be letting the media direct our attention like this.