Not to sound like a Twitter wokescold or whatever, but Shaun does this all the time. A cishet white guy from England who won’t be affected in any way by the outcome of the U.S. election, yet constantly tweets and retweets about how the Democrats and Republicans are totally equally bad and voting makes no difference.
But when we look at what Republicans are doing and saying like…
Trump saying he’ll be a “dictator for one day”
His lawyers arguing that a president killing an opponent should be considered an official act protected by law
The potential Republican vice-candidate bragging about shooting a puppy and other farm animals
Reports that DeSantis enjoyed torturing people at Guantanamo
Multiple Republican politicians and pundits calling for the eradication of trans people
I think this take doesn’t hold up. It’s no coincidence that many of the people with this mentality are also the ones who’ll be minimally affected by a Republican presidency, if at all.
I agree with everything here except giving air to an annoying ass term like “wokescold”. That’s just something invented to try and reverse (completely justified usually) shaming
I’m voting for the lesser of the two evils, which is Blue, in yet another fucked up election. Read your damn history, the US politicians, Blue and Red, always give Israel a blank check for weapons to continue the family blood feud over lots of dried up rocks. Do your civil duty and vote.
Yeah, but that requires doing more than just doom posting, and we can’t have that now can we? /s
So many of the things people bitch about could be lessened (not necessarily resolved, but ffs, perfect is the enemy of good) by getting involved locally and trying to make things better for themselves and their neighbors. Fuck, even working on 3rd party support locally while stemming the bleeding nationally until there’s real ground level support would be better, but I guess we gotta tilt at windmills nationally and ignore the local level to get shut done…
People generally don’t like actually participating in democracy. And fuck, who can blame them? The essential feature of changing policy in a democratic polity is the hard, arduous, thankless fucking task of fighting an apathetic or actively hostile majority. You don’t get to be a hero. You don’t get recognition. You may not even see any change at all from your own, personal efforts, sometimes not even locally. Success is measured on the scale of decades. It’s fucking miserable. There’s no sudden wave of support to ride to victory, there’s no cheering crowds showing your opposition how utterly defeated and isolated they are, like you once were; there’s no moment of vindication. It’s nothing but struggle, toil, and tedium.
The essential feature of changing policy in a democratic polity is the hard, arduous, thankless fucking task of fighting an apathetic or actively hostile majority.
The TikTok ban flew through. The '08 bank bailouts passed practically overnight. War bills for rammed through in a matter of months. Weapons deals are routine and tax cuts happen under every presidency.
The corrupt legislation doesn’t need to walk this arduous road. And corporate lobbyists regularly tout their jetset cocaine and hooker lifestyle.
This is the real face of American democracy. Not an army of petitioners fighting bad weather and apathetic crowds to scrap out civil rights from a clumsy bureaucracy. It’s dudes in $10k suits wooing senators in wine caves and beach resorts. And those same senators denouncing their constituents as greedy, lazy, ignorant slobs when a protest over the latest turd of a legislative package comes through.
Sorry that the miserable task of democracy doesn’t appeal to you. Maybe you can find somewhere where you can just parrot the Party Line and be happy with the Great Leader? I hear the PRC is nice.
Keeping licking those boots, I’m sure your social credit score will serve you well in the future. Cretins like you adore fascism, after all.
I mean, imagine simping for a state currently involved in a genocide, putting hundreds of thousands of Muslims in concentration camps and executing them at will. And imagining that you’re better than the Israeli simps?
imagine simping for a state currently involved in a genocide, putting hundreds of thousands of Muslims in concentration camps and executing them at will. And imagining that you’re better than the Israeli simps?
If you think that’s bad, wait until you hear about Native American reservations and the origins thereof.
The US has a representative democracy. We elect people by voting so that those people can represent our beliefs in the action of government without us being there to make sure our voice is heard and considered.
While I agree that everyone should be more involved in civics, especially at a local level, it’s not really efficient for a society to implement a vanilla democracy. There are lots of other jobs like generating food/removing waste, generating energy/removing pollution, constructing/maintaining housing, transporting people including democratic representatives to and fro based on their obligations and desires, entertaining people so they can offset the pain in their lives and continue on with the struggle that is life, defend citizens from others or ourselves, etc.
Having a group of people act out government on our behalf is a good thing because we can specialize in other things to allow them to do so.
This all being said, there has been a disconnect with our representatives and with reality in general, so there is a giant need to reconnect with civic life in the US at all ages and at all levels for that matter.
Success is measured on the scale of decades. It’s fucking miserable. There’s no sudden wave of support to ride to victory, there’s no cheering crowds showing your opposition how utterly defeated and isolated they are, like you once were; there’s no moment of vindication. It’s nothing but struggle, toil, and tedium.
Yet, that is how societies change.
Interesting.
Is this how the United States was created?
I thought that the Fourth of July was celebrating some other type of event
The American Revolution was the result of some 40 years of agitating and politiking to change popular opinion, and ended with a ramshackle government where everyone hated one another and was entirely dysfunctional for half a decade, at which point a series of compromises no one was happy with and the only unambiguously popular figure in the nation came together to make the US Constitution, which everyone at the time hated. At which point we struggled for the next 20 years with lingering monarchist and loyalist sentiment, and then for the next 50 with anti-democratic and secessionist sentiment.
The change from a British colony to an independent country was (largely) not guns and fireworks. It was comprised of convincing people on the ground to take a different view than the one they grew up with; a slow, miserable, thankless process. And the part of it that was guns and fireworks was not nearly so glorious and momentous, nor spontaneous, as it is often pretended.
I did not suggest that there is anything glorious about violent revolution wherein untold numbers of human beings are murdered.
However, barring that violent revolution, the most powerful and wealthy country in the history of the world would not currently exist.
My point is that it is inaccurate to act like the slow progress of incrementalist democratic reforms is the only way for societal conditions to progress. If anything, those sorts of nonrevolutionary improvements, such as with Mandela in SA, are historical aberrations rather than norms.
The current global superpowers of the United States, China, and Russia were all formed by violent revolution. Secondary powers, such as Australia, Canada, Israel, etc, were formed through violent settler colonialism. And yet, despite this lack of democratic negotiation and mediation, these are the states that largely control the world.
Peaceful adherence to norms and consensus may have arguably established the Nordic model of social democracy and high living standards. However, in terms of global power politics, it seems to leave something to be desired. Violence has consistently led to a change in conditions, and oftentimes, an improvement in those conditions. If we disagree with that then we disagree with the essence of the United States itself - in which case, voting for neoliberal moderation with the Democrats seems to be missing the point entirely
If anything, those sorts of nonrevolutionary improvements, such as with Mandela in SA, are historical aberrations rather than norms.
Under that same logic, democratic governments are historical aberrations rather than norms. So why are you trying to apply a concept of how history ‘normally’ is to historical aberrations?
The current global superpowers of the United States, China, and Russia were all formed by violent revolution.
Formed by violent revolution against non-democratic polities.
Peaceful adherence to norms and consensus may have arguably established the Nordic model of social democracy and high living standards. However, in terms of global power politics, it seems to leave something to be desired.
Or maybe all the Nordic countries combined have less than a third of the population of the UK alone and didn’t even develop into democratic polities until the 20th century?
Nah, it’s gotta be because they didn’t found their prosperity on violence, not that stupid ‘material conditions’ stuff.
Violence has consistently led to a change in conditions, and oftentimes, an improvement in those conditions. If we disagree with that then we disagree with the essence of the United States itself - in which case, voting for neoliberal moderation with the Democrats seems to be missing the point entirely
“The US was founded on violence because of the lack of democracy, therefore, voting in a democratic system instead of using violence is missing the essence of America.”
This is not necessarily true right now. Biden has put conditions on arms use, he has been slow walking arms shipments and now has placed a pause on them, however Israel needs to be supported to avoid major wars breaking out in the Mideast. Unfortunately Biden cannot control Netanyahu any more than he can control the orange mobster - both are dangerously deranged.
however Israel needs to be supported to avoid major wars breaking out in the Mideast.
I don’t think this is true, except insofar as “Waving a stick at Iran every now and again” is concerned. And honestly, we do that bare minimum of discouraging aggression for a lot of countries, not all of whom we would consider allies or countries we support.
I think @rayyy is right, unfortunately. If the West severs ties with Israel overnight (and suddenly stopping arms shipments would essentially be the same thing as severing ties), it'll just create a power vacuum where Russia or China will cosy up to Israel instead. Israel has a lot of influence in the region - partially because it's been propped up by US support, of course - and other countries would absolutely try to prop up Israel and capitalise on their influence in the US' place if they had the opportunity. Which would perhaps slow down the genocide for a little while, but it would inevitably pick back up, but this time without the US/West having any influence at all.
Not to mention the fact that the US losing its influence over Israel would almost certainly destabilise the region. Iran would be emboldened, as you alluded to. Hamas would be emboldened, and while I take the side of the Palestinian people in this whole ordeal, I don't think Hamas being emboldened would be a good idea - it would likely lead to further conflict and even worse suffering for the Palestinian people. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey would all likely try to expand their influences, too.
Biden is trying to slowly reel Israel in while still maintaining US influence there. Partially because the US just wants to keep its power, of course, but also because it's perhaps the best way to have some control over the genocide and over the region rather than just being an observer. I don't like all the blood on our collective hands but I think that, at this point, the genocide would continue without us.
I absolutely think the fact that Israel has been put in the position it's in represents decades of shortsightedness and foreign policy failure, though. Israel should never have been in the position to do this.
I’m not from the US, and no, I’m not feeling safer with liberal or not. Imperialism is pretty much the same. I don’t know what is worse, but I’m sure that in both cases, it would worthless if you have not a strong anti-imperialist and organized movement inside an international organization.
For example, my organization is in the ICL, like the IWW.
Bro if Trump is such a threat and all that fascism stuff and you believe that, then why don’t you just do what that old hitman did to the Slovak leader
At best, even if Trump dropped dead tomorrow, some other member of the fascist party like DeSantis would replace him overnight. Trump is in large part a symptom of deep issues.
Third party voting is a piss poor substitute for voting reform. Your vote is counted but it does not count for shit. Your electoral college delegates’ votes are the only ones that count toward who is elected.
Counted doesn’t mean matters. You can be proud of being among the 7% who voted third part this year all you want when Trump’s goons send you to prison for being trans
Sure, but it would be a lot easier for Joe to win KS than for Jo to win any state. Joe only has to convert like 8% of trump voters. Jo would have to convert 40+% from the two real parties. I’m certainly not gonna help Trump win, so I’m gonna vote for whoever has the highest chance of making him not.
It sucks that we’re in a system that forces us to vote against the worst party rather than for the best one, but like. This is the system we’re in. If we pretend it isn’t happening, we’re only going to hurt ourselves.
Literally the same thing as far as I’m concerned. We live in the real world. A third party is not beating the two main parties any time soon, and pretending that they might only harms us.
Yet, people are always saying we only have 2 choices and don't talking about "wasting my vote". If enough people voted 3rd party, it would no longer be a "3rd party".
It has happened once when the Republican Party supplanted the Whig party, right before the civil war; but I doubt that could happen again with the “advances” of media, polling, and propaganda (and if Trump wins, I doubt the U.S. will have fair elections again). There’s no other “big tent” party like the Democratic party; so a left-leaning third party could only just siphon off a fraction of the votes from the Democratic Party, ensuring Republican victory. We have two-party rule because when people act rationally in FPTP electoral systems, that’s what happens (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law).
Though, I’d argue that MAGA supplanted the Republican party from within. That seems like the most viable option for progressives (supplanting the Democratic party from within).
We don’t get to vote for a target, just a direction in which to ever so slightly turn. When far off course, every choice will continue to lead in the wrong direction, but over time those small corrections will add up. Hopefully.
First, Democrats would actually oppose genocide if Trump was president. The largest protest movement in American history happened under Trump! Under Biden, Democrats just stay home and scold anyone who protests for hurting Biden’s election chances.
Second, Trump is a fucking moron. He’ll fuck it up. Trump would alienate Israel even more, turning it into a pariah state. Trump would weaken and isolate the US hegemon even further, driving more and more countries into China’s arms. Trump might even trigger the collapse of the US itself, the collapse of NATO, the collapse of ECOWAS, the collapse of ASEAN, thus freeing the world of the Great Satan’s empire. Imagine Chinese electric car factories in Mexico. Inshallah~
EDIT Oh, third, because I guess you were confused and I should clarify. I don’t know Trump will be better! That’s why I’m not voting for him. I’m voting Dem downticket and writing Aaron Bushnell in for President, because Aaron already cast the most important vote this election. Trump might be worse and my predictions about how he will fail might be wrong, but Biden is already doing genocide and trade war and letting red states do whatever they want to people like me. I can’t predict who will be better or worse, because they’re both my enemy. I do not care which one wins. Get it?
The number one killer of queer and trans people has been US foreign policy and its unlimited support for israels genocide. You know brown people can be queer and trans right?
Ah, yes, it’s the US’ foreign policy that’s responsible for Iranian morality police killing brown LGBTQ+ people. It’s US foreign policy that’s responsible for Russia’s hard right turn that’s made being gay punishable by prison. It’s US foreign policy that’s responsible for passing laws that make being gay punishable by death sentences in parts of Africa (okay, that one is directly linked to support from evangelicals in the US, but they’re not acting as representatives for the US, and the US in general has been appalled by those laws).
People in Gaza are going to be murdered regardless of which person is elected in the US. OTOH, LGBTQ+ people in the US will continue to have legal protections if Biden gets re-elected, and definitely won’t if Trump gets elected.
But really my dude (and I mean that in a gender-neutral way), if you’re so sure that it won’t matter in the slightest, if you are absolutely convinced by your own righteous cause, go right ahead and vote for Trump, and then tell allllllllll your LGBTQ+ friends that you voted for Trump because Both Sides, and see what happens. Go ahead, do it. Explain to them that they’re all chumps and suckers, see just how far that goes with them.
listen up removed (gender neutral) I’m not going along with your bullshit warmongering, no matter who you threaten me with because the Democrats eat shit.
Democrats are worthless when it comes to protecting trans people, and yeah shit sucks for queer people in other parts of the world too, but you’re not influencing that positively by including them as the excuse for your wars and interference. Treating people like pawns doesn’t engender loyalty.
Democrats are worthless when it comes to protecting trans people,
Uh huh. And yet Biden expanded protections for trans people under Title IX, and the governors that are all trying to criminalize simply being LGBTQ+ are all Republican.
Again: vote for Trump, and tell all you IRL LGBTQ+ friends that you voted for Trump because Both Sides Are the Same, and see what happens. I don’t think you have the guts to do that. Prove me wrong. Shit, post it publicly on Facebook and Instagram before the election. Go ahead. Tell your friends that you don’t care enough about their safety right here in the US to do the absolute bare minimum, to step over a bar that’s so low that it’s on the ground, to help protect them. Don’t be a coward; say it directly to their faces instead of hiding behind a semi-anonymous account online.
People in Gaza are going to be murdered regardless of which person is elected in the US. OTOH, LGBTQ+ people in the US will continue to have legal protections if Biden gets re-elected, and definitely won’t if Trump gets elected.
Unless red states and the Supreme Court decide to take away those protections under Biden’s second term. Do you think Biden would stop them?
SCOTUS blocked Biden’s attempts to cancel student loan debt. But he kept working at it, and he’s managed to get some of it to go through. I expect that, even if red states and SCOTUS block specific policies that are intended to protect that rights of LGBTQ+ people that Biden will keep working to find a way around them that still follows the law. And, if we can manage to flip the House and retain the Senate, then maybe we can actually get laws passed, rather than only executive actions.
Biden won’t stop my red state from making me illegal. I can see it already! Red state declares being transgender to be a sex crime, it goes to the Supreme Court where they rule 5-4 in favor of the red state, and now I either flee or get rounded up into the camps.
And all you will do is use this as campaign material to encourage people to vote for Democrats. You won’t help me, Biden won’t help me, I’ll just be detransitioned in prison and probably murdered. This could happen in Biden’s next term and nothing would change.
Instead, how about you start thinking outside the ballot box and get ready to do something that actually matters?
The feeling of resignation is a direct result of letting trump in the first time and him appointing multiple conservative judges, especially on the supreme court. I’m not sure making it easier for him to repeat this again will help.
I didn’t “let” Trump in the first time? I voted and donated and then he stole the election because this is a shithole country where the candidate that loses the popular vote can become President anyway. Half the presidents in my lifetime lost the popular vote! It’s a joke.
And guess what? It’s too late. The fascists already stole the Court because of Mitch McConnell deciding he didn’t want to play by the rules anymore. It’s over. 6-3! It can’t get easier, they can win every Court case they ever want and nothing fucking matters. Biden is “trying” but because he keeps playing by the rules he will always lose. He’ll keep “trying” while I’m marched to my death and that’s not fucking good enough.
If my state passed a law that said it is legal to hunt down and murder trans people, I’d be dead before Biden did jack shit about it.
America is already a fascist country, when it comes to its foreign policy. If you’re worried about fascism internally in the future then you should also be worried about “foreign policy” right now, but who cares about being complicit in the war machine as long as you get healthcare right?
I’ve had this conversation with my SO. Technically speaking the best move for me as a white male would be to support Trump. Instead I vote for Democrats hoping for positive changes for all people. For most of my life I’ve thought I was “far left” for American standards, but since I’ve joined portions of Lemmy and Reddit you’d think I was a fucking Republican.
Certain portions of the left would rather spit in their own eye for unrealistic principles, even if it means that a worse alternative is the result.
How would it be beneficial? We are running head first in an existential crisis, where Trump and the GOP want to put a full stop on everything that tries to fight that. And yes no country with a significant emissions footprint is doing enough, far from it. I’m convinced that we’ll live in more or less dystopian scenarios within the next 20-30 years. And if I didn’t have children I wished these days would come really soon, so all those ignorant MFers would have to live in it.
It’s directly beneficial in the short term. The statement obviously needs some caveats like the world coming to an end as a result of Trump’s reelection, but in general Trump policies are generally going to directly benefit the middle, upper middle, and upper class white people more than Biden’s policies.
DEI is good for society, but it doesn’t add money to my pocket.
Social Security is probably going to be gone by the time I can collect it, so cutting Social Security means I keep more money now.
I don’t have kids so cutting education funding or making it private would save me money.
I have a job with great insurance, cutting medicare/medicaid would save me money.
Global warming and emissions are a huge deal, but no truly meaningful progress is being made with Biden or the rest of the world. If you believe an apocalyptic scenario is the outcome of the current state of things, and we accept that that is inevitable, then why make things harder for myself now? It’s like being in a burning house with one person running around with a glass of water and another guy getting out his lighter to light a joint.
Strictly speaking, if we take “everything is going to literally end” off the table as an outcome of a second Trump term then most likely his policies are going to be more directly beneficial to me.
Thankfully I don’t feel this way, a rising tide lifts all ships, and we shouldn’t look only to next quarter’s profits. However, the far left shouldn’t bark and bite at people helping advance their agenda for not doing it fast enough, it just alienates the altruistic people who want to help.
Social media in general loves controvery. So they push radical ideas, as they create conversation, clicks and other interactions, which means more time on the site. That then allows for more ad money.
The truth is most Americans are not that radical, due to just not caring too much about politics. They just want things to keep going as they are.
The other part of it is none Americans on social media. For Europeans for example Biden looks center right for the most part. Then again Europeans have options further left.
The other part of it is none Americans on social media. For Europeans for example Biden looks center right for the most part. Then again Europeans have options further left.
My biggest beef with Europeans is the military spending discussion and immigration. Yeah, it would be nice if we cut military spending and used it to better our own society. Yeah, it would be nice to move to a country with affordable housing, public transportation, great education systems, etc.
Norway, Finland, and Belgium have great policies for their citizens, but combined have less than a million troops (active and reserve), spend less than $20 billion each year, and only let in 254k immigrant per year (50k Finland, 39k Norway, and 165k Belgium). In contrast the US has 2.6 million immigrants per year.
It’s like NIMBY, pull the ladder up behind you, and leopards ate my face all had a threesome.
I hope you’re proud to stand up for nothing. It’s not like America was built on uprise or anything. Typical American though, knowing nothing about how your country was founded.
Stand up, or sit back and watch. The only two options.
I love when people shit on Americans for not wanting to ruin their lives for something that only approximately 3% of the country actually gives a shit about
America was built on uprise or anything. Typical American though, knowing nothing about how your country was founded.
And it is currently a police state, with fascists in power. Talk is cheap, why don’t you go first? Start an uprising and have fun getting disappeared. Then come back and complain about those who are trying not to endanger their families.
Anything to excuse biden and his support for genocide. No need to put pressure on the guy supporting genocide, just on the people who won’t toe the line. If you’ve ever wondered how the holocaust could’ve been allowed to happen, just look in the mirror.
The existence of that guy doesn’t mean biden should be allowed to support genocide, just like how the existence of serial killers doesn’t entitle you to kill “just” one person.
Vote for biden, but you don’t have to make excuses for him or pretend like he’s some savior for not being as bad as the other guy. Biden shouldn’t be painted in a good light when he supports genocide.
The attacks aren’t aimed at the criticism of Biden. They’re aimed at the result of that criticism. People want everyone who reads that criticism to understand that, obviously, Trump is worse in many, many ways, even if he were the same as Biden on Palestine.
He isn’t the same. He’s worse and has said as much. Leading politicians in his party have suggested using nukes on Palestine, etc. etc. But even being equal on this one point, he’d still be so much worse overall for everyone. So people want to stop those potential outcomes of criticism, not the criticism.
How many innocent civilians have to die for you to consider it a genocide? When israel completes their goal of lebensraum, will you just go “whoops, no one could have seen this coming”?
Well, meme, not just not voting, but actively using their energy to attack their allies and help fascism spread.
To my disappointment, all I see from the self-appointed “real left” are people stubbornly trying to get US members to stop voting for the Democratic Party. And dunking on liberals ten times before they say one bad thing about reactionaries.
There could be so much good tankies could do, but instead, they aid the fascists. They treat the ongoing genocide as a just a convenient issue to drive a wedge between progressives. When China was committing genocide on the Uyghurs, tankie spaces on Reddit were talking it down and passing around Chinese propaganda memes. The ongoing genocide by Russia in Ukraine seems fine, too, if not even largely met with approval.
I hope some of those pulled into this web and led astray will yet wake up and use their energies for something positive. For example, there are already states that have adopted ranked choice voting, which will let everyone vote, even for a fringe party, without risking a fascist takeover. It will show, black on white, how many progressives there are that would want politicians to move left. If it was to kick off, it is almost guaranteed to topple the current status quo.
That some of these posts and crap all over the internet, not necessarily this one I mean in general, that a chunk of them are just propaganda to stoke what ever flames there are? I am pretty sure that exists. Do you not think so?
The 6 Palestinians I know (from protests in the US), 2 in Gaza and 1 in the West Bank they all tell me they could care less Biden vs Trump, But if has to be one… with Trump there is more chances of change in the region, even at the cost of more lives. Besides, it will be far easier to regional countries and the European ones to distance from a link between Trump’s US and Israel.
Yeah when Trump wins, anyone left of MTG will be treated like the Palestinians are treated now. You guys don’t understand this year is the endgame for the US. You guys will too be busy fleeing from Trump’s Schutzstaffel to even think for a second about Gaza. It’s easy: If Trump wins, the world will fall into total chaos and Gaza will be everywhere, nobody will care about them anymore. If Biden wins, we’ll still have at least an opportunity to improve their situation.
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