Physician here. There are too many possible issues with pregnancy, social situations, etc. to ever effectively be able to navigate that decision tree via legislation. It is barbaric to force women through a non-viable pregnancy. It is barbaric to withhold medical care from a woman whose life is threatened by her pregnancy. It is barbaric to force women into a devastating social situation.
Society will never agree on where the line should be placed or what is morally correct. The decision needs to be in the hands of the mother and their medical team.
Finally, for those who believe in "natural consequences". No birth control is 100% effective. Not all sex is consensual. Non-viable pregnancies happen regardless of how careful you are. Bad outcomes aren't always the result of bad choices.
For me, I feel like it’s a person in there And three months it’s enough time to decide, I will not pretend that I understand the whole host of reasons why people do it because there could be 1 million of them but unless it was like some crazy rape situation or the health of the mother situation or you know for a fact of that child is going to be born with some kind of horrible deformity of some sort it is just my belief that 90 days was ample time, i used to be very hard line on the issue, but as i grow older, I find I care less but still can’t shake that it’s a person. I support the idea of it going back to the states but I disagree with Lindsey Graham on nationwide ban. And I certainly don’t agree on post birth abortion, which I didn’t even believe was a real thing at first. I will not get into what I think of the morals of the whole situation of a person that is constantly getting them because they are promiscuous. I just cite the fact that it is a person in there.
In my experience, people with perspectives like yours tend to drastically overestimate how many abortions happen later in pregnancy. Nine out of ten happen before 12 weeks. And of those that do happen afterwards, the vast majority are due to the discovery of medical risks to the mother or fetus. Very very few people are just casually waking up and deciding that an abortion sounds like a fun way to spend the afternoon. I'd also remind you that a good 20% or so of pregnancies end in miscarriage. The Right likes to spin up this twisted fantasy of women and doctors going on baby killing sprees for fun and profit, and it's simply not the case. "Post-birth abortion" is not a thing to any remotely significant degree. As I understand, there are some exceptionally rare cases where, upon birth, it's discovered that the baby has an immediate severe health disaster that will result in it having perhaps a few days of miserable suffering before dying, and in those situations, it's instead euthanized in what is naturally a life-defining trauma to the mother. To take one of the most tragic experiences a hopeful parent can possibly imagine and pervert it into a shallow political talking point is something that I will not dignify with any additional response.
It sounds like you do acknowledge that there's a lot of nuance and complication here, and that there are legitimate reasons for abortion. Given that, I don't see why there's a compelling reason for the use of government power (amusingly, from people who claim to be for small and limited government) to interfere in complicated medical decisions between parents and their doctors.
As I understand, there are some exceptionally rare cases where, upon birth, it’s discovered that the baby has an immediate severe health disaster that will result in it having perhaps a few days of miserable suffering before dying, and in those situations, it’s instead euthanized in what is naturally a life-defining trauma to the mother.
I agree, however knowing the corruption of the medical pharmaceutical industries i just would be very wary of that rabbit hole, I’m not saying it would be coming but some messed up person is bound to bring corruption to that system for monetary gain. Just my opinion, i have no source of course
I never wanted abortion to be a debate in America like it is now, i think it was s mistake to take it away from the states in the first place and i think it was equally a a mistake to overturn roe in the sense that ppl have had ideas about what their rights are for half a century, further more i think Lindsey Graham is a moron for suggesting a nationwide ban. I also believe that this is going to result in further division and ppl moving from state to state and getting uprooted from what they are comfortable with
In my experience, people with perspectives like yours tend to drastically overestimate how many abortions happen later in pregnancy.
It has nothing to do with frequency. I oppose elective late term abortions because I think it's unethical. I think it's unethical even if it only happens once. The polling on this is clear: most Americans oppose elective abortions in both the second and third trimesters. However I support late term abortions for medical reasons like saving the life of the mother.
The problem is with defining what "elective" is. Defining in legal terms, a "necessary abortion" is also equally difficult.
The best way to safeguard medical professionals against career, even freedom threatening legal battles, is to leave the discretion to medical boards who know ultimately better than anyone what they are dealing with.
This is why it's dangerous to meddle in something like this. We can't go on legislating depending on our personal morals and understanding of ethics. We can't legislate from a position which assumes medical professionals are profit driven, soulless devils who'd do wrong unless prevented from doing so by the strong hand of the general society through government intervention.
This same principle is valid in both gender affirming care -yes, for minors too- and for access to abortions.
We legislate morality all the time. It is the premise of democracy. We ban murder because we believe it's unethical.
I'm perfectly happy for medical boards to decide whether abortion is medically necessary. I also believe they are best suited to decide that. The issue is that activists are arguing for no such oversight. They want the mother to decide, not said medical board.
This is not actually the case. All medical procedures have to be signed off on by the doctor performing them. Maybe someone shops around for a doctor with a more accommodating perspective but it will always need to be signed off by a doctor. if done in a professional medical environment.
The entire point is that the government shouldn't be deciding what medical procedures are necessary for you. The decision is between you and a doctor.
All medical procedures have to be signed off on by the doctor performing them.
This is very different to "medically necessary." What you are describing is a doctor assessing that the mother is physically capable of enduring the procedure without undue risks. What we are describing is assessing wether the procedure itself is medically necessary.
I generally support the premise that people should be able to do what they like with their bodies. Most people do. The issue is the ethical status of the fetus. Many people believe it to be alive and deserving of legal protections. There isn't a clear method for delineating that, so we make a moral judgement. For most Americans, that is after the first trimester.
And with that comes the responsibility of what to do if the mother's life is in danger late in a pregnancy but not in a way exactly as defined as "allowed" in the legislation written by non-medical experts? Even medical experts can't preemptively imagine every possible scenario and write down what should be included in the list.
Here's something I'm sure you haven't thought of before when you formed your opinion on which abortions should be legal.
The issue is extremely complicated to think of in terms of prohibitions.
Read about all those recent incidences where women with clear danger to their lives couldn't receive necessary abortions because their clearly nonviable fetus had a heartbeat while they were bleeding internally.
That's what tying the legality of abortion to the legally defined status of a fetus does, because it's quite impossible to legally define viability in a way which accounts for every possible detail where things can go wrong.
When you leave it to doctors instead, they do the right thing for the vast majority of cases, because they actually do have morals, just like you and I.
I understand that you're arguing late term elective abortions should be legal to ensure that medically necessary abortions are not impacted in any way. That's a reasonable argument, but I don't agree. I am willing to risk the latter to prevent the former. I believe ending a life without good cause is much more unethical than the potential risk for doctors to hesitate or make a bad call.
So you're ok with potentially killing mothers, who have established lives, loved ones, people to take care of and share a life with, through scaring doctors away from administering necessary procedures to prevent the cases of some mother-doctor pairs from killing some hypothetical fetuses which can be counted on the fingers of one hand annually anyway.
Again, you are missing the reality that most people, including pregnant women and doctors are human beings with compassion and morals, just like you and I.
What you are proposing is a moral high ground from a position of complete incompetence on a matter unrelated to you in any shape of form outside of a vague philosophical connection through shared humanity.
The worst part is, virtually nobody on the "fetal lives matter" side of the discussion, if it's fair to call it that, show the same amount of moral sensitivity when it comes to death penalty, sending 18 year olds to war and similar issues where governments take lethal action on the basis of our collective support through the same philosophical mechanism you propose as a means to control how doctors can use their means to administer healthcare.
So you're ok with potentially killing mothers, who have established lives, loved ones, people to take care of and share a life with, through scaring doctors away from administering necessary procedures to prevent the cases of some mother-doctor pairs from killing some hypothetical fetuses which can be counted on the fingers of one hand annually anyway.
This is a very poor steel man. If that's really what you think I support then I encourage you to read my comment again. I believe the risk to mothers is very low, and acceptable, relative to the certainty that people currently exercise the ability to electively abort late term fetuses.
No one is claiming doctors and mothers aren't human beings. That's an absurd claim and you are being histrionic now.
As for the death penalty and other policies, I can't speak for others. I oppose the death penalty and unnecessary wars. You'll have to take that up with the straw man you're trying to build.
So the problem with a board is... Who is assigned that position? Elected? Chosen by the medical professionals at that hospital? Chosen by a single medical professional in the state? Who is allowed to be picked to that board? Only doctors? Admin? Hospital ownership? Licenced doctors that are not currently practicing, like the ones hired by insurance companies?
If you have the wrong set of people on that board, you can have a de-facto abortion ban in that area. Or a lot of expensive oversight on these boards.
That looks horrific, but you appear to be arguing that we should legalise killing late term fetuses as a solution. I'm sure there are other, better solutions available.
I think it is always medically ok for an abortion. Pregnancy is always dangerous, and is always harmful to the mother. If they decide to terminate at any point, that should be ok. No mother takes this decision lightly
I'm kinda splitting hairs here, but you seem to be using the terms "morality" and "ethics" interchangeably when they don't mean the same thing.
Ethics are social norms. Morality is personal. You cannot legislate morality because everyone makes those individual decisions anyway, and we will all rebel against rules we consider immoral. Ethical practices are those that balance everyone's divergent senses of morality in ways that allow us to actually function as a society. All legislation is ultimately legislating ethics.
Murder is unethical because we ban it. We ban murder because we believe it's immoral. But at least where I live, we can have a little ethical murder sometimes, as a treat -- if you call it capital punishment first. Many people, including myself, consider this immoral and would support changing the laws which inform (but do not define!) our system of ethics.
Also, I don't think you understand that abortion clinics are run by groups of physicians who are playing the role of this "medical board." It also seems you don't understand that limiting the incidence of DIY/back alley abortions is [the] major reason for making abortions accessible/legal. Telling someone they can't get an abortion in a clinic won't stop them from getting an abortion. It'll just stop them from getting an abortion in a clinic.
I think my use of ethics and morality are all correct. I don't see any incongruence. To also split hairs, we legislate morality by voting. That act is how we affect moral legislative change at the state or national level. Further, you seem to be conflating ethics with laws. Laws can be unethical, such as the death penalty you mention. There are different ethical schools and they are often in stark disagreement with each other.
I am quite aware of how abortion clinics operate in the US. There are rarely boards. In states which permit elective late term abortions, there is generally one or sometimes two physicians who assess the medical fitness of the patient. They are not assessing the need. I think you are confused about the premise of the discussion. The number of physicians is immaterial to the standard by which they are assessing the patient.
I am also aware that one of the arguments from activists for legal elective late term abortions is that women will use coat hangers. I have not seen any convincing evidence of this and I think the risk is low. By keeping first trimester elective abortion legal, I believe almost all risk is eliminated. It is further reduced by criminalising the murder of fetuses. Studies reveal that harsh penalties work very well to reduce crime (I'm happy to cite studies if you like).
We legislate morality all the time. It is the premise of democracy. We ban murder because we believe it's unethical.
I'm perfectly happy for medical boards to decide whether abortion is medically necessary. I also believe they are best suited to decide that. The issue is that activists are arguing for no such oversight. They want the mother to decide, not said medical board.
That's not the only reason; a society where murder is legal wouldn't just be unethical, is not tenable. It would quickly fall apart as every minor dispute is solved by killing those who disagree.
Unlike murder, there is no ethical cost to terminating a fetus <24 weeks, when it is not yet capable of sentience. There is no need for a medical board to intervene before this point. Allowing abortion access leads to a better society, not a worse one, in terms of crime, generational wealth, resources and attention per child, and the obvious benefits of simply not having a society filled with unwanted, unloved, and resented children. Forced-birther moralistic arguments rely on ignorance regarding fetal development and apathy regarding outcomes of both mother and child. They are not comparable, morally speaking.
Unlike murder, there is no ethical cost to terminating a fetus <24 weeks, when it is not yet capable of sentience.
There are many more factors to consider than sentience when assessing the value of a human life. It is illegal for me to walk into a hospital and murder a brain dead patient on life support.
While I agree that the evidence seems to suggest that legal elective abortions affect some positive social outcomes, I am not convinced that that alone is a sufficient argument to permit legal late term elective abortions. Eugenics also produces desirable social outcomes, eliminating genetic diseases and improving overall intelligence and physical health. This alone is insufficient to validate the practise.
There are many more factors to consider than sentience when assessing the value of a human life. It is illegal for me to walk into a hospital and murder a brain dead patient on life support.
In the US, you could if you were the next of kin making decisions about care, but only by unhooking them and not ending their life in less potentially traumatic ways. Criminalizing euthanasia is another great example of unethical law, and it is legal in many places.
While I agree that the evidence seems to suggest that legal elective abortions affect some positive social outcomes, I am not convinced that that alone is a sufficient argument to permit legal late term elective abortions.
After 24 weeks there is a reasonable case to be made for this, however you might be interested to know that even after that point fetuses are kept anesthetized and sedated in the womb until first breath:
the fetus is actively sedated by the low oxygen pressure (equivalent to that at the top of Mount Everest), the warm and cushioned uterine environment and a range of neuroinhibitory and sleep-inducing substances produced by the placenta and the fetus itself: adenosine; two steroidal anesthetics, allopregnanolone and pregnanolone; one potent hormone, prostaglandin D2; and others. The role of the placenta in maintaining sedation is revealed when the umbilical cord is closed off while keeping the fetus adequately supplied with oxygen...
a massive surge of norepinephrine—more powerful than during any skydive or exposed climb the fetus may undertake in its adult life—as well as the release from anesthesia and sedation that occurs when the fetus disconnects from the maternal placenta, arouses the baby so that it can deal with its new circumstances. It draws its first breath, wakes up and begins to experience life. source
Eugenics also produces desirable social outcomes, eliminating genetic diseases and improving overall intelligence and physical health. This alone is insufficient to validate the practise.
As you mention, eliminating heritable diseases is also eugenics, the kind that few complain about and many people still practice by choosing not to birth children with genetic defects, selecting partners with fewer genetic risk factors, or simply choosing not to reproduce. These practices have not been invalidated and persist to this day. The eugenics that people object to is forced eugenics, which more often than not overlaps with genocide.
When you legislate what is and what is not "elective" you tie doctors hands. Politicians are not medical professionals, and laws are rigid. When laws restricting abortions to emergency/ saving the mothers life are put in place, doctors have been forced to wait even when they knew that an emergency was inevitable. Women have died because the doctors had to wait until the legal department was satisfied that the mothers life was in danger.
When you legislate what is and what is not "elective" you tie doctors hands.
We tie the hands of doctors in many ways. There are literally millions of lines of laws and codes of ethics by which doctors are required to abide. I agree that there is the risk of edge cases where life saving medical care could be withheld. I do not consider that a good reason to make elective late term abortion legal. Instead I believe that risk can be overcome with better training.
That makes an assumption that the person is aware they are pregnant the entire time.
I didn't know I was pregnant until I was roughly 11 weeks because I was using birth control. Except this was before the more recent shouting-from-the-rooftops news that antibiotics can render birth control pills ineffective. I'd been on antibiotics for two weeks around Christmas time and here I was in March, at my doctor, trying to figure out why I was sick when he asked me to do a pregnancy test.
I didn't get 3 months to decide. I had to wait 2 weeks before I could get an appointment for an abortion for a pregnancy I absolutely did not want and had been doing my best to avoid by being on birth control.
I'm not the only woman with this story or a similar one. Many women simply don't know they're pregnant until several weeks in, especially when they are using birth control and don't have an abundance of symptoms.
I believe in special circumstances which is why i really think greater conversations need to take place, thank you for your input and i appreciate your feedback. Maybe we will discuss it more sometime.
Here's the thing - I am not a special case or circumstance. This happens with some regularity and I'm someone who has chosen to share these intimate details with you to convey that an arbitrary date line isn't helping anyone. At the end of the day, the discussion and decision should be between the pregnant person and their medical provider, and the pregnant person's partner, if applicable and requested. It's literally no one else's business or concern.
I personally supported first trimester abortion, but unless it’s for the health of the mother, after that, I’m kind of against it
Fetuses are not capable of sentience until ~24 weeks. There is no ethical cost to abortion before this point. Forcing them to give birth to unwanted children only serves to make both mother and child suffer. It is incredibly unethical.
The science conclusively establishes that a human fetus does not have the capacity to experience pain until after at least 24–25 weeks. Every major medical organization that has examined this issue and peer-reviewed studies on the matter have consistently reached the conclusion that abortion before this point does not result in the perception of pain in a fetus. source
I respect your source and i understand, see i wish conversations were had more and ppl weren’t ostracized as much on both sides but good old crappy human nature always prevails. I think some more debate and discussion is needed on this topic from both sides
Fetal person hood is a red herring anyway. Should you be forced to donate blood to keep another person alive? What about organs? Is not giving your kidney to someone murder?
When people seek an abortion after 3 months it’s almost always not by choice. And it’s almost always not done lightly.
Where do you draw the line on “health of the mother ”?
Perhaps you mean a mild cold? Or perhaps you mean that it’s likely there will be extreme complications? Or perhaps you mean they should wait until those extreme complications crop up?
Or do you mean that the mother must be literally fucking dying on the operating table? Because that’s what a lot of people mean by it.
It is impossible to ethically legislate abortion, because any law that is able to accommodate every justifiable and in fact ethical abortion is going to be too complicated and too unwieldy. It will have the same chilling effect as any blatantly restrictive law.
For one to thing, the ethics are not at all clear, especially when you take into consideration social and economic impacts of a child (or indeed, another child.) or that there is broad disagreement between religions (and indeed, the christian scriptures flatly disagree with the belief that is a human inside you- scriptures say the soul enters on the first breath- a child who has never taken that breath has no soul to worry over. Further, OT, includes directions to abort a pregnancy resulting from infidelity- and the recipe for abortion.)
Finally you begin to see the disingenuousness in these arguments when you consider that that most effective way to prevent elective abortions is to provide broad access to contraceptives- something that the same people who are apposed to abortion are equally apposed to. I can only assume the suffering is the goal.
I grew up in the hood and my memory of girls getting abortions were legit and im not making this up, the sluttiest of whores acting like physical cum dumpsters to any and every guy that would boldy go where so many had gone before, i knew one girl who was 22 and had 10+ abortions because she was constantly getting dogged out and cum dumped into by every swinging dick in the neighborhood, i know this not usually the case i just wish that degenerates would seriously get their shit together cz it’s absolutely disgusting. I mean seriously I used condoms maybe 15 times in the past 16 years, it’s called pulling out, jesus man, ppl need to practice that hip game
Then 61% of the 61% also insists that bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe LoL aMiRiTe and neglects (for the nth time) to vote. Sitting on their intellectually lazy asses at home, fondling their so-called purity, then lovingly sniffing their fingers.
It wasn't a good thing that this was overturned. but the protection for abortions should never have been based entirely on a ruling of the supreme court, When, and I really hope it's when, they get an opportunity to next make abortion protected federally it must be codified that way something like this doesn't happen again. As is the Supreme Court has two much power and influence for a group of 9 lifetime appointees.
And it is too easy for republicans - by hook and by shameless cynical crook - to ram their corrupt zealots into SCOTUS, squatting for an entire lifetime, whoring themselves to the highest right-wing corporate and church bidders.
@AlternativeEmphasis I think it was a great decision. In general the federal government should be doing very little imo. Different people in different states overwhelmingly have different opinions. Now that can play out
The idea that everything ever must be explicitly specified in the constitution overrides decades (maybe centuries) of legal precedent. That idea only popped up when a weaponized supreme court showed up to do what they were put in their position to do, aka violate everything the supreme court is intended to do
Completely agreed, but something that needs to be noted - because I see people who have clearly been misled about this all the time - is that there has never been a majority in Congress that would pass law codifying abortion rights. Even during the brief Democratic supermajority in 2009, there were several pro-life Democrats that wouldn't have supported it. Public opinion is moving in the right direction, especially now, and conservative Democrats are essentially archaic relics nowadays, but it's still an uphill battle, though I am cautiously optimistic in the long-term.
I see people often say that the Democrats have never really cared about abortion, and that if they did they'd have gotten it done in 2009. This simply is not the case.
If you are in favor of abortion or opposed, I think it is time to recognize that the Roe ruling wasn't written to last the test of time. They punted on the question of when human life and human rights begin and said, lacking any understanding of that question, the issue becomes a privacy issue. At some point society is going to have to deal with the question of the genesis of human life and human rights and what to do when there's a conflict. I would have thought the result was going to be drawing the line somewhere and then creating some sort of due process when an abortion is requested after that drawn line. Instead, we have what's also not a well-written tossing of Roe that punts the question to the states instead. I strongly believe that the issue will be revisited in the courts in our lifetime.
Nah, [slavery and abortion bans are] unrelated issues, stop conflating.
They are related in that both legalized slavery and abortion bans are examples of regional legislative causes of needless human suffering. Furthermore, it's many of the same states doing it. How much suffering should we allow states to inflict on their residents before the Federal government intervenes? What's your metric here?
I wish you could share that sentiment with someone that actually was a slave.
I absolutely could. Read the 13th amendment carefully: "except as a criminal punishment."
You didn't answer my question. I will repeat it: How much suffering should we allow states to inflict on their residents before the Federal government should intervene? Given that fetuses are incapable of sentience/suffering before 24 weeks, why should we allow states to make women and children needlessly suffer by forcing women to give birth against their will? Help us understand your point of view.
If we don’t pass laws at the federal level, the southern states would still have slavery. These types of federal decisions push the entire nation forward. Leaving it to states is a cop out.
My government teacher in rural Missouri was literally a neo-confederate with posters of Confederate generals on the wall, who taught that Lincoln was an evil tyrant and that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery.
Forgive me if my view on the South's ability to protect human rights is limited.
Fuck the states. My state would not have let me marry my wife if the federal government didn't force them to. My brother is gay, he'd be doing hard labor in prison for that if my state had its way.
I mean, states rights led to the civil war, right? All those men's lives they threw away, for the right to rob others men of their freedom and dignity. Good riddance
Your rights should not be dependent on what state you reside in. It's asinine to think that people who have the same citizenship you do deserve to have more or fewer rights than you just because of arbitrarily drawn lines on a map.
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