Enshittification isn’t things that were not shit becoming shit; they were always shit, you just didn’t feel it.
Surveillance capitalism isn’t some horrible corruption of capitalism, it’s just capitalism in the age of the ubiquitous digital network.
The problem isn’t things that were good becoming bad. The problem is things that have always been bad finally negatively affecting even those with bucketloads of privilege who are now attempting to explain away why they were ok with it all before.
@aral I don't know... I often feel like shit, and that makes me shittier as a person, so I can imagine how that might scale to a large corporation. Maybe people like to think themselves too high-minded, that none dare call out greed for what it is, and the good ones walk away instead of breaching the taboo while the bad ones dig in deeper to quicken the pace of their hustle.
@aral Interesting thread. I don't know of any ethics that ever applied to capitalism. Ethics is irrelevant, and contrary, to the aim of capitalism which is to make the maximum profit for the owner. The rule closest to an ethical standard in business is "caveat emptor" or "buyer beware."
Surveillance capitalism is just capitalism now. Every store, every mid to large product, is built to extract your information. That information is sold to data brokers. Governments buy it to circumvent surveillance laws.
Your car? That company that made it isn't an automotive company. Their profits come more from data it collects and sells, they are surveillance capitalists. When Target asks for your phone number? Same thing. Your records are all being sold.
There are no sectors of business staying out of it either. Every sector is collecting and selling data. Every. Last. One. And every one of those companies has an extreme profit edge on those who don't participate in this. They're selling data at a premium, after all. Virtually no overhead required to collect it.
@aral Mmmm nah. Enshitification is the intensification of shit in pursuits of increasing profits. Services which were shit - or even weren't shit - become more increasingly shitty to satisfy shareholder demands for returns on over-valued assets or in saturated markets.
It might not be inevitable under capitalism, but it certainly is under late-stage secular-stagnation capitalism where expectations for ROI>inflation persist despite >100 PE ratios.
Enshittification is when profit-oriented companies that were always shit (because they're profit-oriented companies) finally let their shittiness spill over into their product
No, there is not. Just as there is no ethical version of slavery.
#capitalism stands on multiple violations of human freedom and self-determination. It is built on a foundation of violence, oppression, racism, theft, exclusion, colonialism, extraction, coercion, exploitation.
There is no baby in the putrid bathwater of capitalism. Throw it out!
You think that being forced to engage in production of things for exchange on the market (to enrich someone else) in order not to starve is a good thing?
@RD4Anarchy@aral Firstly, you are attacking me as if I am someone who supports capitalism. I do not, infact, I write extensively about this issues with capitalism. Secondly, I am not being forced to do anything. I live off the land, in a community,, eat the food I grow for myself -- non of which I paid for. I exchange trade with other people to aquire goods I need. Sometimes I make profit, sometimes I make a loss, but this is necessary for me to live. This has been the way for thousands of years, before the industrial complexes of the modern world. What's weird, is this trading for loss and profit, is a part of capitalism, that I deem as ethical.
I think you really ought to engage with people in a neutral manner if you truly wish to be able to tackle a matter effectively.
@RD4Anarchy@aral I also want to point out that Aral who posted this runs a non-profit organization. Non-profit organizations depend upon capitalism to exist. The whole concept of being able to take income to support society benefitting work depends on people having capital to give. I.e donations, grant money-- all of these concepts are predicated by capital. Are non-profits ethical? Yes they are. Are they part of capitalism, yes they are.
@aral@RD4Anarchy If I seem to be doing that, I do not intend to.
What I am conflating is that a monetary system whereby individuals or businesses have capital, ie. profiting from private property, as capitalsm.
Since the essential feature of capitalism is the motive to make any form of finanical gain from private property, we can see that many things in our society that do good are dependant upon people making profit off private property. (I want to point out here that I'm not refering to personal property). Particularly in a society that is dependant on private property and reliant on finance.
From this perspective, it is my view that seeing all things in capitalism as bad is unhelpful. I'm merely suggesting that to look at ethical aspects of capitalsm, whereby people are using capital for good, rather than it all as a bad thing, can help us in any form of revolution.
@aral Aral, also I just want to add that I really appreciate you and your work. I agree on the fundimentals of your toot. The only thing I disagree on is the "all things in capitalism start as bad" notion. Wishing your a great day!
Benefit corporations—B corps—are required to consider their larger stakeholder communities. This, as opposed to the typical C corp structure that benefits only owners.
Related, I’ve encountered small and mid-size businesses that look after employees, vendors, customers, and communities. I imagine they do so because the owners work and live shoulder-to-shoulder with those stakeholders.
Mr. Lövsund has exited this exchange, but I feel compelled to accede to his point as I expand the context of the discussion. Yes, capitalism is bad, for it’s like nuclear power, capable of generating enormous energy as it consumes everything in its orbit. It needs control rods. What are the control rods of capitalism? They’re government. Forgive my preaching, but we the people must manage capitalism lest it destroy us.
@nlovsund@patrickgillam@aral exactly, so what you are saying demonstrates there is a difference between ethical capitalism and unethical capitalism. You agree that ethical capitalism you can support and unethical capitalism, you don't support. With that said, we can say that for many organizations, they may start with good intentions and end up bad. Not all organisations are inherently bad.
@nlovsund my understanding is you questioned my statement, asking if there was such thing as ethical capitalism and if there was even such a thing. Then proceeded by saying you support businesses who act ethically and not ones who don't. Hope you have a good day too and thank you for the debate.
@nlovsund@aral
My mother-in-law who runs a small antique shop where she sells second hand antiques she picks up from car boot sales is an ethical company. This is an example of ethical capitalism, and there are many other cases.
This issue you have is that you are assuming capitalism is only occupied by share holder driven public companies. It is not.
@aral This is a point that Zuboff misses in her position / book on surveillance capitalism. I totally agree that this is not just capitalism gone rogue as an exception to the norm, but capitalism is conducting business as usual with the available tools of the time.
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