Reminder: crypto isn’t solarpunk. It’s cyberpunk.

Listening to a recent episode of the Solarpunk Presents podcast reminded me the importance of consistently calling out cryptocurrency as a wasteful scam. The podcast hosts fail to do that, and because bad actors will continue to try to push crypto, we must condemn it with equal persistence.

Solarpunks must be skeptical of anyone saying it’s important to buy something, like a Tesla, or buy in, with cryptocurrency. Capitalists want nothing more than to co-opt radical movements, neutralizing them, to sell products.

People shilling crypto will tell you it decentralizes power. So that’s a lie, but solarpunks who believe it may be fooled into investing in this Ponzi scheme that burns more energy than some countries. Crypto will centralize power in billionaires, increasing their wealth and decreasing their accountability. That’s why Space Karen Elon Musk pushes crypto. The freer the market, the faster it devolves to monopoly. Rather than decentralizing anything, crypto would steer us toward a Bladerunner dystopia with its all-powerful Tyrell corporation.

Promoting crypto on a solarpunk podcast would be unforgivable. That’s not quite what happens on S5E1 “Let’s Talk Tech.” The hosts seem to understand crypto has no part in a solarpunk future or its prefigurative present. But they don’t come out and say that, adopting a tone of impartiality. At best, I would call this disingenuous. And it reeks of the both-sides-ism that corporate media used to paralyze climate action discourse for decades.

Crypto is not “appropriate tech,” and discussing it without any clarity is inappropriate.

Update for episode 5.3: In a case of hyper hypocrisy, they caution against accepting superficial solutions—things that appear utopian but really reinforce inequality and accelerate the climate crisis—while doing exactly that by talking up cryptocurrency.

AEMarling,

On their Patreon, the “Solarpunk Presents” hosts admitted they interviewed crypto-and-web3 bro Stephen Reid because listeners asked for him. The hosts should have known better. They should have ignored those requests, as probably those listeners/Patreon donors are invested in crypto and are trying to shoehorn it into the conversation. The hosts should have known crypto is unnecessary for a solarpunk present or future. Instead we could be talking about real solutions like mutual aid, free stores, and library economies. The hosts failed to do the right thing.

Barring that, they should have refunded the money of Patreon donors asking for this speaker, saying that ethically they cannot platform crypto. The hosts failed to do the right thing.

They should have challenged Stephen Reid when he made fallacious arguments in favor of crypto. The hosts failed to do the right thing. After recording, the hosts should have realized their conversation wasn’t substantive and valuable. They could have refrained from uploading it or edited out the unopposed statements in favor of crypto. The hosts failed to do the right thing.

At the least they should have interjected context about those arguments, adding counterpoints and why crypto may not be the only solution or not a solution at all to any of solarpunk’s goals. The hosts failed to do the right thing.

They should have added a prelude or epilogue to the episode talking about any reservations about crypto or how the general conversation did not represent their solarpunk values. The hosts failed to do the right thing.

I have no confidence they will do the right thing in the future.

AEMarling,

In S5E3 they invite on a guest in favor of crypto. The hosts do nothing to counter his statements. Even if they had on that episode, it would have been a zero-sum game. They could invite more guests on who oppose crypto. That still would fail to undo the damage of introducing crypto as something that deserves debate, rather than consistent and clear condemnation.

“Debate me,” is the rallying cry of the alt-right. You absolutely should not debate them. Those ready to argue in bad faith of the indefensible know the power of muddling issues, of eroding moral clarity, and creating uncertainty when there should be none.

I expect solarpunk media to have enough clarity of vision that they present a future that is better than a zero-sum game. And I expect them to do better than being permissive toward crypto. I have lost faith in the ability of “Solarpunk Presents” to deliver bold and radical truth. I have canceled my Patreon support and unsubscribed from their podcast.

emptybamboo,

I’ve listened to their podcast since the beginning and I’m a proud supporter on Patreon.

They have made it a point to interview people and I don’t get the impression that they agree with all of their interview subjects. I also don’t agree with them on everything. But that’s what an intellectual debate is. Just because they talk about an idea does not mean that they endorse it. Just because you hear about it does not mean that you must go out and buy crypto.

If you are going to look at a movement as diverse and amorphous as Solarpunk, you can interact with multiple ideas and learn more. But just because you learn about something, it does not mean that you must accept it or integrate it into your worldview. As I see it, understand where people are coming from - even if you disagree with it. Understanding does not equal acceptance.

(For full disclosure, I think that crypto makes very little sense. I’ve tried understanding what it is and why it is important but I just feel like it is a solution looking for a problem.)

AEMarling,

Editing the original post as follows, in response to their latest episode.

Update for episode 5.3: In a case of hyper hypocrisy, Solarpunk Presents caution against accepting superficial solutions—things that appear utopian but really reinforce inequality and accelerate the climate crisis—while doing exactly that by talking up cryptocurrency.

bastion,

This is annoying in its inaccuracy. Crypto is a variegated set of technologies that are competing with each other.

Bitcoin, ethereum, etc all use proof of work, which is ridiculously energy-intensive, and not required for crypto to function.

…but there are lots of other cryptocurrencies out there that don’t use proof of work, and are no more energy-intensive than any other typical internet service.

jeremyparker,

It’s hard enough to get people on board with social movements that directly help them and have no downsides; you’re going to have a hard time promulgating a financial system that undermines the wealth of the people who dominate the standard financial system, especially when the more wealth you’ve accumulated (in the standard system) is directly proportional to your ability to spread propaganda to support your wealth.

There are better, more winnable, battles to fight than the global financial system.

While i agree that a victory there would be huge, part of the reason it would be so huge is because of how very, very unwinnable it is.

That said, if you’re super stuck on finance as the issue you want you be involved with, imo, the best thing you can do is communicate the questions – the problems with contemporary finance, of which there are so very many – and don’t waste your time offering solutions.

(Even if we had a solution that could work, it would surely be obsolete by the time it could be meaningfully implemented. Cryptos of all kinds, at this point, can only provide their benefits to people with disposable wealth, who can afford to take the risk, and those are exactly the people who don’t need you to fight for their interests. Or anyone – but you’re not anyone, you are you; your energy is finite, spend it where it can help the people who need it most.)

bastion,

I appreciate your well-considered response.

I have a lot of things in involved with in life, and to varying degrees. Crypto is by no means my absolute focus.

However, crypto is immensely useful, and no amount of wishing it away or saying ‘the time hasn’t come’ for it will be effective. It has a niche, and will occupy that niche successfully, without any big battles to fight.

It also is flexible, and new uses will come around, paralleling the existing ones.

My own uses for it are primarily in DAOs, which are really neat and useful, for me. There are plenty of other uses, but voting and traceable structure and organizational finance as exist in some DAOs really is a major one.

moon,

I call it ponzipunk

figjam,

Crypto is Fecespunk

mojofrododojo,

Valid points all.

if you’d like a fantastic example of how Crypto is going to fuck up power supplies, just look at Texas - they can’t keep their statewide grid running, shit on their renewable strengths constantly, and cut deals with cryptochuds so they’re PAID to stop mining. SO FUCKED-UP.

tpr.org/…/texas-paid-a-bitcoin-miner-more-than-30…

Glasgow,

Crypto is cypherpunk not cyberpunk.

You can create new alternative economic systems outwith existing monetary systems. Global mutual credit, local exchange trading systems, etc. There are plenty of solarpunks and leftists in crypto and have been since the start.

fine_sandy_bottom,

Not really. This usecase is infinitesimal compared to speculation.

Glasgow,

For now.

jeremyparker,

Unfortunately an economic system is only as useful as its buy-in, and that’s the hard part. If you want you fight financial hegemony, don’t give wealthy people another lever of control.

Glasgow,

What about local exchange trading systems?

yildolw,

“I am a solarpunk in crypto because I want to burn the entire energy output of a second Ecuador in order to help criminals extort ransoms out of hospitals and libraries.” - An idiot

bastion,

Confidently incorrect.

deafboy,
@deafboy@lemmy.world avatar

I hope somebody makes righteousness edible until you retire. Otherwise you’re gonna have a bad time.

Glasgow,

Ransomeware is a pretty small segment. Much dodgier shit happens with cash.

PoW can be used to store energy. Geothermal farms in remote areas mining energy credits. Spending energy on important stuff is also fine. We spend much more on inane nonsense. US tumble dryers use more energy than bitcoin. Other countries just use drying racks

jeremyparker,

Literally a children’s hospital in my city had their shit locked up by “hackers” – they were using pen and paper to schedule appointments for weeks, using handwritten notes to pass health details from ER to ICU, etc. It could still be down for all i know, I haven’t checked in a while.

I don’t know exactly how much pain and suffering this has caused kids, or how many died because of it, but i know how hard it was when my son was in the hospital for months when he was little, and that was with a fully functional hospital.

It’s fucking disgusting. And I’m like kinda pro-crime a lot of the time…

Glasgow,

Why would Satoshi do this

Omega_Haxors,

Use this as an opportunity to clear house, you’ve got a bunch of nazis revealing themselves here.

krolden,
@krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

Lol what

TexMexBazooka,

Words I no like = nazi

Duh

anton,

Some nazis see fiat as “unsound money” (read Jewish) and want to return to “sound money”. Before crypto they wanted to return to the gold standard.

If we look deeper we notice that fiat money has allowed states to finance social welfare programs that gave money to the poor and therefore to black people.

mojo_raisin,
  1. Who are you to define solarpunk? It’s fine to disallow talk of crypto in the sub but I don’t know that any individual or group has the right to define solarpunk at this point.
  2. Many coins are indeed scams, and many NFTs are scams. This does not mean the underlying technology is a scam. Many scams use the dollar. Somehow we have to get from here to there, from an exploitative unsustainable capitalist world to a solarpunk world. This will almost certainly mean many years in a state of transition where money of some sort will still be needed. Crypto currencies could be a tool on the path, I don’t know but I’m not ready to throw out a whole technology because of some scams. In fact, it’s usefulness for scams might actually be a sign of it’s utility, just like cash.
  3. Fiat currencies also take massive amounts of power, and they are exclusively controlled by the bad guys. Banks have racks of servers and/or use cloud services, financial exchanges also run racks of servers and build microwave towers for fast communication.
  4. I know this one will sound incredulous to most, but have you considered that those with billions invested in the current system spend money to influence communities like ours and social media to make something that could be their kryptonite have a bad reputation? Isn’t odd how the anti-crypto crowd is so uneducated on the topic and yet so rabidly against it? Why would people interested in changing the balance of power not have interest in a tool that has potential there?

Maybe crypto is not strictly solarpunk but that doesn’t mean that it cannot be a useful tool in the transition away from capitalist control to solarpunk.

Those against crypto, how do you propose we get to a solarpunk world from here? What is the path? What are the tools?

frezik,

Those against crypto, how do you propose we get to a solarpunk world from here?

Hold up, there’s a huge leap of logic in this question. Are you saying there is a path if only we embraced cryptocurrency? If not, then why even phrase the question that way?

My answer, then, would be “Mu”.

mojo_raisin,

Are you saying there is a path if only we embraced cryptocurrency?

No, I’m saying if we actually plan on making progress, maybe use available tools and don’t let purist thought, groupthink, and propaganda take our tools from us.

frezik,

OK, so we probably want to avoid crypto if we don’t want groupthink.

mojo_raisin,

Why would avoiding a technology help you avoid groupthink?

You’re conflating communities full of idiots that crypto tends to attract for a technology. These are not the same.

Solar panels are technology that attracts lots of idiots and scammers (scammy companies abound if you’re not familiar), should we avoid solar panels? No, because solar technology doesn’t have anything to do directly with scammers right?

frezik,

Because cryptocurrency is as much a culture as a technology. Solar panels are not.

mojo_raisin,

So if a culture grew up around solar panels that you don’t like, we should avoid them and suffer the negative environmental consequences of throwing out one of our best tools to fight climate change?

Smart

frezik,

Since crypto isn’t our best tool for anything, the analogy falls apart.

Keep in mind that the leftist answer to currency is quite possibly none at all.

mojo_raisin,

Since crypto isn’t our best tool for anything, the analogy falls apart.

So only the best tools are allowed to be used then? How is the best tool determined? By whom?

Keep in mind that the leftist answer to currency is quite possibly none at all.

Yes, I am one of those leftists who desires a world without money and believes it’s possible (it was for hundreds of thousands of years in fact).

cerement,
@cerement@slrpnk.net avatar

(sorry, not sorry)

NegativeInf,

So you propose we move from one fiat I can hold in my hand to a different fiat that I can no longer hold in my hand. You propose we move from having bad guys we know controlling the system to change to bad guys we don’t know controlling the system (see mystery whales).

There is no viable use case for crypto that has not already been solved by other, less power hungry, means.

And if you think the big banks, venture capitalists, and private equity don’t have disproportionate influence on crypto, something is very wrong.

“Solarpunk is an art movement that depicts nature and technology in harmony, and is also a subgenre of speculative fiction, fashion, and activism. The term was coined in 2008, and aims to tackle climate change, galvanize the community, and deploy existing technologies for the greater good of people and the planet. Solarpunk aesthetics include: Renewable energy Technology that disappears into the environment Lush green communities with roof top gardens Floating villages Clean energy transport Hope-filled sci-fi tales”

I’m not saying crypto talk should be explicitly banned here, but should at least be limited to the context in which it is applicable to the topic.

mojo_raisin,

So you propose we move from one fiat I can hold in my hand to a different fiat that I can no longer hold in my hand.

You don’t know what fiat means. Learn about money, and the technology behind before having such a strong opinion.

I’m not saying crypto talk should be explicitly banned here, but should at least be limited to the context in which it is applicable to the topic.

That sounds appropriate. Cryptocurrencies, when considered without the layers of misunderstanding and propaganda could be a useful tool in a transition to a more sustainable future similar to other imperfect but still at least temporarily useful technologies we might not ultimately want in a solarpunk future such as electric cars or tall buildings with trees all over them.

NegativeInf,

Sure. It’s not “Technically” a fiat currency. A government doesn’t back it’s value. But that just means it’s literally fucking worse. It’s so detached from the idea of representing anything that it is only worth something because someone believes it is. At least a gold standard is backed by something that has value. But I’m not fighting for a change to that either.

I just don’t see the point of replacing one meaningless strip of paper with a meaningless strip of 1s and 0s in the context of solarpunk futures. At the current point in our timeline, cryptocurrency has NO valid use case for which there is not already a better system out there, even if that better system isn’t the one we are currently using.

Also, fuck off. I’m entitled to my opinion, and I don’t particularly believe anyone when they say that crypto is a force for good or useful. It’s only been a way to rip people off.

mojo_raisin,

it is only worth something because someone believes it is

Uh… ya… money

At least a gold standard is backed by something that has value

We don’t have a gold standard (in the U.S. or most western countries).

Also, fuck off. I’m entitled to my opinion

me too ya?

NegativeInf,

We don’t have a gold standard (in the U.S. or most western countries).

Did I fucking say you did? A gold standard. General case you myopic fuck.

it is only worth something because someone believes it is

Uh… ya… money

What the fuck are you talking about? A backed currency has value from the item it is backed by, a fiat currency has value from the government it is backed by. Crypto has value from…??? Burning GPU time? Proof of stake is better, but there’s no guarantee that it won’t just all lose value tomorrow. But, I hear you protest, so could all money? Yes, but you know, people generally have a vested interest in keeping their government running for a multitude of reasons and to that point, other countries have a vested interest in keeping other countries afloat. Crypto? Not so much.

Look. There’s nothing wrong per se with the technology itself. I just do not see it realistically being a necessary component for a solar punk future. Which was the point of the entire post.

mojo_raisin,

I just do not see it realistically being a necessary component for a solar punk future. Which was the point of the entire post.

And I was asking who are you to make this decision for solarpunk, which was a major point of my response.

But I see you’re upset so no more responses.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

There could be implementations of crypto that don’t consume a small country’s worth of electricity and water just to work. Even the credit card industry uses a ton of energy and also continually funnels money to a small group of people who use it to prevent the sort of change we want to see.

Decentralizing the means of exchange and store of value is, I think, a very solarpunk thing. Crypto as it’s been implemented isn’t solarpunk at all. But the idea of alternative currencies and means of exchange that are more in line with the greater good of the people is solarpunk.

I, for one, like the idea of Ricky’s hash coins.

mojo_raisin,

I, for one, like the idea of Ricky’s hash coins.

Nice!

fine_sandy_bottom,
  1. Anyone can define solarpunk as they wish.
  2. All coins are used for speculative investment, there’s very, very little practical use going on.
  3. What a silly thing to say. Banking servers wouldn’t use a fraction of the power mining operations do.
  4. Sorry mate this one is a bit kooky. Anyone who didn’t drink the koolaid can see it for the ponzi scheme it is.
mojo_raisin,

Anyone can define solarpunk as they wish.

Pretty much, but it still has a general meaning. Just like the word “punk” itself. If Blink 182 said “This is punk”, Minor Threat and The Romones might have something to say.

All coins are used for speculative investment, there’s very, very little practical use going on.

This is mostly true now but doesn’t have to be. I’d say a large part of why it’s stuck is because of people’s negative attitudes towards it. Faith in a currency is critical.

What a silly thing to say. Banking servers wouldn’t use a fraction of the power mining operations do.

And you know this how? How are you measuring the electricity the modern dollar requires? What about crypto-currencies that don’t use proof-of-work and instead use a consensus algorithm like Raft?

Sorry mate this one is a bit kooky. Anyone who didn’t drink the koolaid can see it for the ponzi scheme it is.

No worries, it’s expected that heavily propagandized people view the claim they are propagandized as kooky.

mojofrododojo,

heavily propagandized people view the claim they are propagandized as kooky.

you seem like a prime example of this phenomena.

mojo_raisin,

likewise! :)

fine_sandy_bottom,

Obviously, terms like solar punk are subjective, it’s a bit dramatic to claim “x is not solarpunk” but it’s equally so to declare “you have no right to define solarpunk”. Just imagine they said “x doesn’t align with my values”.

I’ll concede that crypto doesn’t have to be all speculative. IDK how to get to somewhere useful from here though and I’m not sure it’s possible really.

Consensus and PoS or PoA or whatever are not the norm. Bitcoin needs to be mined which consumes energy, fiat does not. There’s no question that crypto is wasteful. Again, maybe it’s possible to fix this with some future iteration but that doesn’t seem likely.

We are all of is “propagandised”, but that doesn’t make my assertions any less valid.

mojo_raisin,

Just imagine they said “x doesn’t align with my values”.

But they didn’t, they said “X isn’t solarpunk”.

Consensus and PoS or PoA or whatever are not the norm

Ethereum is arguably coin #2 – ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/…/pow/

ComradeKhoumrag,
@ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

It’s Cypher punk, not Cyber punk. Ones a movie genre about swords and dystopian tech, ones a decentralized trustless protocol powered by encryption

JacobCoffinWrites, (edited )
@JacobCoffinWrites@slrpnk.net avatar

I’ve been a fan of cyberpunk for years, and I feel like an unsecured currency backed in computational waste (proof-of-work style) is a perfect fit for a cyberpunk setting. If I’d read it in a story years ago I’d have said it was a little on the nose

Klear,

That’s the problem with fiction. Unlike reality it needs to be believable.

ComradeKhoumrag,
@ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

How is it insecure? Schnorr signatures and the txID system literally make it quantum resistant. Even if you cracked a transaction’s key, you’d only have access to already spent funds. Like a receipt instead of a debit card, with no certainty who has the money until they spend it.

Oh, and in terms of computational waste, the fiat backed inflation based currency system we have now, has incentivized a world of endless growth which isn’t sustainable. Switching to an asset with finite supply like Bitcoin would remove those incentives. There’s other costs to using deflationary assets, but if you actually value the environment, switching to Bitcoin would economically inventivize a world where people are encouraged to save more instead of spend more

kevinhippert,
@kevinhippert@c.im avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    anton,

    https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.HU0hz6q_P-HlVgkUeGchagHaGY&pid=Api

    JacobCoffinWrites,
    @JacobCoffinWrites@slrpnk.net avatar

    Unsecured, as in stuff like mt gox where the nearest thing to a bank for crypto just closed one day and stole hundreds of thousands of Bitcoins with no recourse. Unsecured like watching the crypto scene reinvent/rediscover financial regulation one theft, scam, or disaster at a time. That’s a perfect fit for a cyberpunk setting.

    Unrelated to my point about the genre, I’ll admit I’m especially skeptical that it’s the devaluation of currency is what’s responsible for the endless growth mindset of capitalism, or that systems that seem to be used more like investment stocks than a currency are structurally capable of fixing it.

    I’m sure the some of blockchain technology has some practical uses, there’s probably a way it can work as currency, but I have a hard time seeing any way to separate the modern cryptocurrency scene from investment capitalism

    Edit: I really do wish you luck in doing so though

    Omega_Haxors,

    Cryptocurrency is just fossil fascism disguising itself as anarcho capitalism. Anyone who took one good-faith look into crypto and didn’t instantly become a communist as a direct result is full of shit.

    krolden,
    @krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

    What is fossil fascism and how does it apply here?

    DragonTypeWyvern,

    TIL

    greeneuropeanjournal.eu/fossil-fuelled-fascism-an…

    TL;DR modern fascists have ditched the progress/science cult of yesteryear and now engage in performative anti-environmentalism.

    I don’t think it’s the best name though. It makes me think of either applying fascism historically or a reference to the specific fascist movements of the 30’s as differentiated from modern inbreds, but, on the other hand, I can’t do better.

    Gas fash? Crudeolinis?

    bastion,

    Crudeolinis 😂. That’s a fun one.

    MilitantVegan,

    This is a little confusing to me. Clearly the arguments are centered around cryptocurrencies and on that note it’s exactly right - those are a steaming pile of shit that have no place in solarpunk. But the language of this post sounds inclusive of all forms of encryption, and that’s problematic given the essential role of various forms of encryption for protecting privacy, and the security of those with little or no political power.

    Voroxpete,

    “Crypto” has become a common shorthand for “cryptocurrency”. Unless I’m missing something, I saw nothing in their post that references cryptographic technology as a whole.

    krolden,
    @krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

    Not all cryptocurrencies are the same. Sounds like you don’t quite understand their differences and just want something to rage about.

    poke,

    To expand on this, there are crypto such as Nano, which take very little energy and time to crunch transactions. I wouldn’t expect most people talking about crypto to be talking about that kind of coin, though. Bitcoin and Etherium are the heavy hitters, and they are incredibly wasteful.

    I’m not going to get behind the finger pointing on the comment I am replying to, though :)

    ComradeKhoumrag,
    @ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

    Bitcoin has a market cap comparable to apple. It’s not going away anytime soon. You should do your own research and not let the mainstream media establish your perception. It’s not like the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on crime, or the opioid/Xanax crisis were complete blunders by the media, right? But now, they’re opinions on a crypto asset that fundamentally threatens their status quo is not full of shit?

    Omega_Haxors,

    You’re right, some are ponzi schemes designed to burn the entire amazon and others are ponzi schemes designed to only burn half the amazon.

    krolden,
    @krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

    Can you please explain how all cryptocoins are ponzi schemes?

    Omega_Haxors,

    no I don’t think I will

    null,

    They never do.

    ComradeKhoumrag,
    @ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

    Ask anyone who talks shit about crypto for anything besides a meme, and you’ll still get a meme. That’s how their perception of it was established. They probably don’t know the difference between the internet and their web browser, let alone decentralized vs centralized, or all the many reasons why the economy has gone to shit the last few decades.

    But they do know memes! The same two memes that have been told since Bitcoin was priced under $10k

    anton,

    If we look at other types of investments/stores of value there is always something:
    Stock -> Company
    Personal loan -> Work
    Gold standard currency -> Gold
    Fiat currency -> Taxes *
    Crypto -> ?

    The only way for the prices of a thing to go up is investment or the thing providing value to someone. Therefore the price of Bitcoin is either the result of speculation or the value it provides as a currency. Bitcoin is to slow and expensive for normal use and I don’t think it provides billions of dollars in value to controlled substances market.
    A system of investment where the only money comes from new investment is considered a Ponzi scheme.

    *It can’t just be trade because all the others could work. Is it ease of trade? No, otherwise everyone would use USD. It’s the ability to pay taxes and settle legal debt in the country you are in.

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