I think we can tag in the Paradox of Tolerance with a side of Nazi Bar on this one.
This type of "they're intolerant, but polite" shit needs to get nipped in the bud because it metastasizes quickly, and sends out a batsignal to other intolerant groups that this will make a fine home base so long as they hide their power levels.
Cool. But why don’t we do it proactively? Like let’s go find these people that think the Bad Things. We can even wear matching shirts - I’ll go order them. Come on guys. We cannot rest while there are Bad Thoughts out there being thought by Bad People.
That in itself is overstepping what Christianity is about. At the core, you only need to believe a few things:
Jesus is God
God is Triune
Baptism unites us as Christians
Everything else varies from one denomination to another. Also, if you’re going to put any restriction on /c/christians are you also going to going to apply this equally to other communities of similar faiths like /c/jews /c/muslims? The belief systems are very connected to the Old Testament teachings, where most of the discussion on this topic stems from in theological terms.
At the heart of Christian teaching is love. Following a personal conviction of self-applied beliefs because you think God’s vocations are more important than your brain chemistry is just that: Personal. It should never spill over to anyone unwilling to follow such a path, especially in a way that is hateful. I think as long as participants understand that line in the sand is a line in stone and it is carefully moderated, then it should be fine. There’s literally millions of other topics that could be discussed.
Edit: they can repeal this decision. If they remove that line from their rules and live by it we are up to having normal conversations even if we don’t agree with the viewpoints.
But our stance on LGBQT is clearly laid out in the instance rules. We want to provide an inclusive platform. There are enough LGBTQ people who are christians.
EDIT: The community’s moderator/owner hasn’t been online in over a month. If anyone wants to take over this community and make it follow the Lemmy World rules then contact me.
Just autoban right wingers. Their ideology is inundated by fascism and bereft of any social value and everyone with a brain knows this already. So why would we want to chat up homophobes and racists?
Do we really need to wait for each one of their individual inevitable mask off moments to realize that all of these fucks are the same? Tucker motherfucking Carlson was the face of the honest intellectual right wing before he wrapped himself in a flag and bible and started making millions on outright advancing fascism. This is who they are. We all know it. Kill baby Hitler in his crib.
Can’t believe I’m going to bat for the Christians but here I go: Maybe it’s OK that not everyone thinks the same about every single issue and that we have some diversity of thought on the fucking internet.
Their rules also make it very clear that they’re not going full Westborough. But even if they were, the Internet is not just for people who agree with me. This trend of orthodoxy is quite disheartening.
We don’t need to pull the marketplace of ideas thing when the “ideas” being defended are things like “I don’t think LGBTQ+ people should exist / are sinners”.
aka the paradox of tolerance which isn’t a paradox but a treaty but people know the name “paradox of tolerance”. we’re in pretty good philosophical company on this one: slippery slope and “but free speech” arguments have clear counters
Frankly? When the thing they think is bigotry, no it is not ok. This isn’t a casual difference of opinion, it’s discrimination - thinking that an immutable part of someone’s identity is a fundamental sin.
We do not need to adhere to free speech absolutism, and we do not need to equally entertain all ideas and opinions. We are human beings, not abstract concepts that adhere to ideological purity - we can make exceptions.
What about the phrase "sunlight is the best disinfectant"?. You can allow people to air their opinions (regardless of whether you believe they're bigoted or not) and it'll hurt their cause. Alex Jones is nothing but a meme now because of having a platform.
Doesn't banning these people prove their ideas and conspiracies right and force them deeper underground?
If they aren't promoting literal violence, leave them be. Just because they upset some people isn't a reason to ban them.
The Westboro Baptist Church is a prime example of airing their foul opinions causing almost a complete exodus and switch on behalf of the church members. If you think you're right, try to convince them.
If you want to talk to them, go somewhere they congregate and talk to them. It’s not like such places are rare on the internet. Not everywhere needs to be a platform for hate.
You do realise that every single social platform favours your way of thinking?
Really? 4chan does? How about exploding-heads? reddit? What unmitigated horseshit.
All you need to do is shout “my feelings!” and you get results.
You’re whining that bigots aren’t welcome here. Your poor feelings. There’s already too many places that are as stormfront-y as you’d prefer. Not everywhere has to be.
There were a total of 12 threads there and not one of them was the slightest bit bigoted. Get a grip.
“WHO AM I TO JUDGE” – THE POPE’S COMMENTS ON GAY PEOPLE (dilw.ie)
Giving this post the old litmus test to see how admins vs mods handle this. Tread carefully :3 Nobody’s closer to Jesus in rank than the Pope.
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Take care of your pastor. 'Exhausted' pastors suffering decline in overall health, respect, friendship: study (foxnews.com) @TheOneWithTheHair avatar TheOneWithTheHair@lemmy.world, 3 weeks ago
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No, scroll waaaaaay up and re-read what I wrote. I said that bigots already have many platforms on which they were welcome. The guy defending bigots whined that this isn’t one of them. I said that he was upset because he would prefer everywhere to be more like stormfront.
All you did was dump a wall of text that omitted the bigotry central to the discussion. Because not only are you irritating enough to dump a wall of text in the service of bigotry, you’re dishonest enough to deny it where it exists.
Not every site is obligated to be complicit in the spread of bigotry. No good community welcomes bigots.
So, why not install one of the members there as mod to clean up the rule (which has never been enforced). As it is, it's been nuked - the community name is banned forever, and the members are sol.
edit: The community was deleted less than an hour after this thread went up, there was no effort made to correct the problem whatsoever.
When the “opinions” being aired discriminate against other people or could lead to an avoidable death from dangerous misinformation, it should not be allowed.
Deplatforming works. Yes, banned people will leave and try to congregate somewhere else - but it is better that they are removed, so that the impressionable and the vulnerable are not hurt by their bigotry or misinformation. Besides, how many people have you honestly seen have a core belief successfully challenged and changed on the internet?
So disagree then. Even though I think your suggestions are as dangerous as the bigotry, it’s a part of the diversity of thought I’d like to see in an online forum. There are 2.6 billion christians in the world and 1.7 billion muslims. And according to you they should all be deplatformed. That’s more than half the worlds population instantly dismissed by you as bigots because they believe in the book of fairy tales they were taught to believe in. I disagree pretty strongly with their views, but they have a right to exist on the internet. Unless they’re actively organising a pogrom or a crusade, you’re not helping anyone by deplatforming them. And even then, they’ll just find another place to organise it - personally I’d like to keep it visible. Both as an early warning system, and as a chance to have the sunlight do the disinfecting.
And, honestly, to think that deplatforming bigotry is just as dangerous as bigotry is absurd to the point where I don’t think any reasonable discussion could be had here anymore.
Running around deplatforming people who think Bad Things but haven’t hurt anyone is seriously anti-enlightenment, and I think it’s equally absurd you can’t see the danger in it. But I am still glad that we have a place that we can have this conversation.
people who think Bad Things but haven’t hurt anyone
“People who think bad things but haven't hurt me personally, ergo they haven't hurt anyone”
Why don't you go ask trans people in Florida whether Christian bigotry has hurt them or not
Or were you just talking about physically hurting people? Because it would be naive to think that's the only way you can make someone suffer. It's also not true, Christian extremists have attacked and even killed trans people and continue to do so.
Awesome. You’ve definitely changed my mind. Let’s get em! In the name of tolerance let us make sure there is no safe space for anyone to discuss the Bad Things. This is sure to be effective at reducing the proliferation of bad ideas, and certainly does not undermine the marketplace of ideas.
You can get defensive and sarcastic if you want but that won't change the fact that your logic is fundamentally flawed. Like I've previously said, I strongly encourage you to read about Karl Popper’s Paradox of Tolerance, which is not so much a paradox but a social contract.
The Bad Things™ don't deserve a safe space in the marketplace of ideas. Because they can't pacifically coexist with other ideas without tainting it with the stench of hate, because this “marketplace of ideas” is not absolute and infinite, its boundaries must be defined so that each of its members is respected, ergo hate cannot be included without others ending up excluded.
The Paradox of Tolerance has been proven true time and time again,defending tolerance requires not tolerating the intolerant. Yet for god knows what reason some liberals keep insisting on this free speech absolutism utopia and defending the marketplace of ideas over the existence of actual individuals like its some kind of holy relic, give me a break.
Then there’s reddit and facebook and youtube comments and 4chan and twitter and bluesky and threads and so on. Not everywhere has to be welcoming to bigots just because you like them more than the minorities they hate.
To play devil’s advocate (pun not intended), this community poses an interesting quandary.
When seen in context, their rules do clearly prohibit any hate speech against the LGBTQ+ community:
Rule #5: Remember that we are all fellow image-bearers. We may disagree with people, but we are never to tear down another person’s inherent dignity and value as someone made in the image of God (Imago Dei). This includes those in the LGBTQ+ community. They need Jesus, too, just like we do, and we can’t say we represent Him while we tear down the works of His hands.
Rule #6: Banned subjects include … Anything calling for direct/indirect violence against any individual or group, including LGBTQ+ individuals or groups; …
Rule #8: This community does not affirm practiced LGBTQ+ lifestyles, with the exception of the ace/aroace (asexual/aromatic-asexual) lifestyle in certain contexts. However, abuse towards members of the LGBTQ+ community will not be tolerated. Pro-LGBTQ+ content is not allowed; however, sincere questions and discourse about LGTBQ+issues are permitted.
I’d be interested to see the admin’s ruling in this case.
That’s the ol’ “hate the sin love the sinner” shtick. It tries to separate homosexuality (the “sin”) from homosexuals (the “sinner”). If only they could stop sinning (stop being gay) they would of course be welcome!
Its not just excluding them from church/christian communities, its the theological basis for conversion camps and the like.
I would think specifically not allowing “pro-LGBTQ+ content” is being pretty bigoted. Just because it is a religious belief does not mean it can’t also be bigoted.
If this little “loophole” is enough to allow this kind of thing to stay on this instance, I would be worried. But I’ll wait and see what the admins have to say about it. Resolved: lemmy.world/comment/1455537
I think that would depend on what “Pro-LGBTQ+ content” means. It’s quite a vague term. Does it refer to posts, discussion topics, or what?
They do follow up by saying that serious discussion about LGBTQ+ issues is acceptable, so the fact that are open to discussion, in theory, could be a point in their defense.
No, to brainstorm a point, seeing as the community has now been banned and thus I have no idea what specific content they allowed outside the rule snippets posted here. Problem’s resolved, we’re done.
I was going to say something pretty similar to what you were.
I’m the last one to generally defend religious people, but are they actually being bigoted?
There’s a pretty large difference between not affirming something and attacking something and frankly flipping through the community I didn’t see either of those things occurring.
It sounds like the original poster just doesn’t like the rule itself.
It is not like we live in society where everyone is always welcome.
“What if it was Russians?” (aha we forbade them long time ago), Chinese (them too), native Americans (we killed them off), what is they are from some poor country… Some of those russians and Chinese are lgbt+, what about them? Migrants? no way.
There are always limits if you don’t see them you should work on your sensibility (or probably information source)
They have some rules, it is on us all (not only admins) to assess if those rules align with this server or they should make their own instance (or go to known conservative instance).
I don’t even want to look at their community (i am ignorant of all religions) if they just don’t want some content it is ok with me, if they are hateful and share hate content and contet against lgbt people then delete them.
Discrimination against Russians, Chinese, or Native Americans based on their demographic is also unacceptable. That it once was doesn’t make it ok now.
100% this… race and sexuality are both pretty similar: things that people just are and can’t change about themselves
to say they’re not the same is… well, it’s not wrong, however they’re comparable in this context. if you say it’s not the same thing, you’re either arguing in bad faith or you made the exact point we were trying to: the only reason 1 is acceptable and the other is not doesn’t stand on logical foundations
What are you on about? There are many Christians who have no problem with LGBTQ+, and there are lots of relevant issues about it to discuss, especially in a Christian community.
Then I think you’ve fundamentally misunderstood. If I have a community about baseball, and I don’t allow non-baseball content, I would not have a rule stating “no non-baseball content and no LGBT content”. That doesn’t make any sense, and would only be included if I also wanted to remove baseball-and-lgbt content, which would be bigoted.
Y’all need to stop thinking of hate groups as being avoidable with shit like blocking. For marginalized people it matters more that these fucks coalesce and organize with one another. It’s not about seeing some dickhead drop an F bomb it’s about the fact that fascism is ascendant and this kind of shit is how it got that way.
I didn’t want to remove it out of a kneejerk reaction. They had this in their sidebar:
Rule #6: Banned subjects include pro-Nazi and/or pro-racist sentiments; support for conspiracy theories such as Q-Anon, International Jewish Conspiracy, Holocaust denialism, etc.; “is X the mark of the Beast?” drivel; anything calling for direct/indirect violence against any individual or group, including LGBTQ+ individuals or groups; pornography of any kind; gore; spam; asking for money; pro-Mormon and/or pro-Jehovah’s Witness posts.
I think you made a rushed decision, you are creating a dangerous precedent and you will be bombarded by people being outraged by minor things requesting you to ban communities for no good reason. In this case, if there was a violation it could be resolved with discussion instead of an outright ban.
The community was not even active, so there is no one maybe to send an appeal. If you look at the upvote, and downvote ratio of this post, you can see that there is no unanimous opinion on this case, and the decision should be taken more carefully on this one. If you don’t want to push your other users out of the instance.
They have a rule in the sidebar that clearly goes against the instance rules. They can appeal and if they don’t have anyone to do that there is another problem because that goes against the moderation rules on this instance.
I’m glad to see rules being enforced in the face of bigotry instead of the constant leniency to which bigots have become accustomed and to which they regard themselves as entitled.
They can appeal and if they don’t have anyone to do that there is another problem because that goes against the moderation rules on this instance.
If it's against the rules to be unmoderated, there should be a way to add mods, since there's obviously no way for the current non-existent mod to do so.
Yes which can be done by contacting the admins by posting in !support or !moderators or sending a mail to info@mastodon.world which will create a support ticket
I think what they mean is the mods of this community aren’t expecting to have to moderate ideological discussions over bigotry, just to handle support requests. Which, well, I contributed to those discussions myself, but I get it.
That said the bible seems to suggest Jesus was pretty tight with hookers and his only recorded gripe with gambling was when it was in a synagogue, so why not both?
I agree with you and it’s sad to see you’re being downvoted for stating something that should be obvious.
I don’t like religions in general because I find them incoherent on many aspects, but that’s not a good reason to attack them, they’re not breaking rules, just ignore them.
Well, I am disappointed that the mods took the decision so easily. This community should maybe revise slightly the rules, but there was no clear violation, it could be resolved with discussion.
And there I was expecting Lemmy to enable bigger freedom of opinion than reddit, I guess I was wrong. Seriously considering to stop using both networks.
I too believe it could have been resolved with discussion, I’m confused by such a sudden reaction, I just hope there may be things we don’t know about it, otherwise it doesn’t make sense to me.
I mean, we intend to allow Meta shit here because it’s not “open minded” to block them preemptively, then we’re being close minded about this.
Sorry. Are you saying there are no gay Christians? Or that homophobic rules aren’t relevant topics to homosexuals?
What are you trying to say? Because it sounds like you’re defending the right of bigots to congregate and share their bigotry and hate, and surely anyone capable of rubbing two sticks together knows that’s a bad idea.
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