I just posted this in response to a frenetic YouTube video that claimed that the Reddit protest "failed":
Get serious. It was NEVER going to stop the IPO. But it has accomplished something even more important: it has decapitated Reddit. A lot of the most passionate and involved users are gone, and more of them have at least tried Fediverse alternatives like Lemmy and kbin. Have you checked those sites out? They're FLOODED with Reddit refugees, and the communities there are booming! They're active and vibrant, with great discussions and content.
What's more, they have hope. The members there aren't subject to some psychotic money-grubbing corporation; if any one server goes authoritarian, there's nothing stopping the users there from just moving to another. They'll have the same access and functionality. And frankly, the odds of a Fediverse server going corporate and having an IPO are infinitesimal. It simply wouldn't be worth it, particularly since there's no way they could stop other instances from defederating with them.
So the outcome of the blackout has been twofold: First, Reddit has lost some of it's best. The quality of content there is diminished, and will continue to diminish as poor quality drives users away. And second, the Fediverse alternatives have been given a huge boost. Almost all users of Reddit are now aware of the ugly truths that underlie that service, and that there are alternatives out there.
That's not failure. That's the seeds of success.
And by the way, I think that's one thing we can all do to help bring down Reddit: mention the great alternatives out there as much as possible to spread the word. The more Redditors who learn that they don't have to be a product to be sold by the pound for the stockholder class, the quicker Reddit will fall!
I also bet there are people who haven't already left that will abandon ship once the TPAs stop working. It's not going to be fun getting stuck with their mediocre app, particularly since they seem to be testing the end of the mobile site.
I imagine there's a meaningful amount of users that only exist in the context of the third party apps, that will disappear after the apps lose support. I'm sure most of them are lurkers, but that's still something.
This. For a lot of people Reddit isn't reddit.com, it's Apollo or Relay or Sync or Reddit Is Fun.
After the apps stop working, they won't be able to keep using the thing they're used to. They can't just go back, they'll have to switch to something different.
I stopped using Twitter when they pulled this API crap, and as a Boost user, I won't use reddit when I can no longer use Boost.
Currently using Jerboa for beehaw and I'm liking it so far, and the dev seems really responsive to user requests. Excited for the communities to get some traction moving forward!
Looking at the tracker comments seem to reaching parity with posts again, as they were pre-blackout. For the two days of the protest 67% of subs were private, yet posts hardly deviated from the norm - and comments only slightly below. Is the implication that people in subs that didn't join in like r/news etc just posted/commented that much more in a show of support ha ha ha, or is this a de facto admission that much of the site's traffic is just bots? Are investors down with that? I haven't seen this actually hashed out in discussions much.
Probably, but it wouldn't be as easy since each instance has different design, admission criteria, and access to other instances. A bot would have to be based on a given instance, so a botnest instance could be cordoned off. If it becomes a bigger issue, each instance may have their own way of dealing with it so the bot would have to be capable of not only negotiating the above obstacles but also how to get around a variety of different ant-bot measures.
Yes, there's nothing stopping someone from creating bot accounts on Lemmy and pretty much every other Fediverse platform. Even if APIs are restricted, they can just parse HTML instead (though that's a bigger pain in the ass). This is an area where the decentralized nature of the Fediverse works in our favor, though, as it inherently limits reach and discoverability (thus minimizing the benefits of doing this). For example, Mastodon's flagship instance (mastodon.social) had a spambot problem not too long ago, so what happened is when other instances noticed this spam wave, they limited/defederated with mastodon.social and the problem was solved on their end. The host instance can temporarily close off sign-ups to prevent new accounts from being made. Every other instance can control federation to effectively quarantine the spam problem.
Interesting. My initial thought was that botting on the fediverse might be easier than on a centralized site, since you can target your bots to several instances at a time. If one of them catches on, your bots can still function because they aren't being banned across all instances.
What you say about being able to quarantine and cut off instances that are being spammed makes a lot of sense though. I'm glad that at the least there'll be some new challenges for bot authors.
Ultimately though, the relatively small size of the communities is our best defense against bots at this point. Lemmy/kbin just aren't great targets yet because bots won't reach enough people to achieve their creator's goals.
I'm making a bot to post RSS feed updates on a kbin magazine I created and it's not too difficult to parse the HTML either - a single regex to grab a token from the post form is currently all I need. Obviously once kbin has an API I'll be swapping to that since that'll mean the server doesn't need to generate the webpage for my bot
It's impossible to tell how much of the posts are bots but if you look at the default subreddits I'd say that it's definitely noticable.
Reddit is a popular grey marketing area - be it shilling products or political propaganda. Lemmy/Federation hasn't reached enough mass for this to be a real problem yet but it'll happen eventually and Lemmy is an easy target right now. I used to work in bot detection area and modern, well made bots (the ones you should worry about) are essentially indisguishable from real users but script kiddies can be an issue too.
The only real way to fight bots is to reduce the incentive which is more of a cultural thing - people have to call out shills and a more transparent platform definitely helps.
Sorry for the rant but I think bots/spam will play a big role if federation ever reaches the point where there's enough eye-balls for shilling to be valuable.
Good perspectives, I totally agree it’ll be a big challenge here as the fediverse gets bigger. Mastodon’s already had a couple of waves of spam - Brian Krebs had a good article a few weeks ago
There has to be a way to limit these accounts. Perhaps ban accounts with inhumane levels of activity? If possible, this would be awesome. I think that's what makes a platform for me - interacting with real humans on topics of mutual interest. It would be such a bonus to have a feed not dominated by bot reposts and inevitable drivel.
Behavior analysis is definitely a popular way to handle this but it's very difficult and resource intensive. Major issue is false positives as users are hard to predict in flexible environments like forums - is this person interested in all Honda posts as they are researching their new car purchase or they're shilling for Honda?
has to be bots, right? how do you lose 90% of your forum and maintain the same engagement levels? that's impossible. like 70% of my reddit traffic was just to a single subreddit. I doubt I'm that weird.
Maybe I missed some context, but wouldn't most Reddit engagement come from top-level post browsing?
I'm not ashamed to admit that I reflexively open Relay to browse Reddit. Between that and lots of people scrolling the "Best"/"Hot" page for news, maybe most of the engagement is just surface-level browsing?
What's bizarre is the comment activity did take a noticeable dip, ~25% or so (less than I would have expected, but not nothing) but somehow post activity stayed the same. Where were all of those posts made? The only conceivable explanation is bots, but even then, on which subreddits? The only really big ones that stayed open are news and politics subs.
But these are the stats Reddit will present to prove the blackout was totally pointless.
Decoupling from Reddit has been easier than I thought.
Am actually rotating between Lemmy instances and Kbin to read the articles and thoughts in between my workday and it works like a charm.
It also really helps that I pavlovd myself to associate Reddit with garbage and instantly make the connection to how they see and treat their userbase.
It made me open reddit only once during the last days.
Was going to send someone at work an interesting article which was linked from Reddit but the subreddit was shutdown. I hate that reddit is doing this, and I hope more subs shut down permanently for protest so that reddit can't just "wait it out", but man is it inconvenient as hell.
I went back into Reddit a couple times during the blackout as it's so easy to click the Infinity icon on my homescreen. And I've got to say, the quality of posts on my feed were so much worse. Zero text posts, only images. I started unsubscribing from a bunch of those subreddits. Starting to realize how little value most of Reddit gives me. The only things of actual value are behind subreddits that have gone dark. I've been enjoying Lemmy so much more and having more meaningful conversation. It's so much better
For the semi-lurker like me there's nothing holding me back to Reddit. Some current news, sprinkle of meme, some draft comments that I will never submit and some meaningful discussion from community, fediverse has all those.
I'm going to keep Reddit for specific interests like specific sports teams or specific game franchises. I haven't really seen a replacement for decent engagement for those. But other than that I've already trimmed down my subs to almost nothing. There's a lot less activity on those, so my Reddit time will be about like my Facebook time, which is a couple minutes a day to see any updates before closing.
I think it's going to be a nice change of pace to not have those big subs taking up so much of my time doomscrolling.
I like reddit. I want its fun little spaces to thrive.
Reddit is making this really difficult.
The suits are all about their metrics and engagement and clicks and they don't care about the user. They don't even care about the peeps they hire to talk to the user.
I'm told sometimes admin employees find out they're fired because they can't log in to workspaces anymore.
*I like reddit. I want its fun little spaces to thrive.
Reddit is making this really difficult.*
Agreed, but I don't think they're going to be moving in a positive direction. I believe we have seen the best Reddit will ever be. When a company becomes profit driven in the way Reddit has, it forces the company to make decisions that aren't beneficial to it's users. I understand the decisions they're making, but their "rip the band-aid" method at least lets us see that they're unwilling to compromise on their position. It makes switching to a different platform much easier for me. It just sucks because there are small communities that I thoroughly enjoyed and I don't know if they'll ever recoup.
I don't know how to make this not about me. So, I'm just going to say it. Friday I closed a 13 year old Reddit account. Saturday and Sunday I brought up multiple Fediverse servers. I now have Mastodon, Lemmy, PixelFed, Owncast, and NextCloud working. I have yet to get Element Chat and PeerTube running. They will happen by Friday. When I opened my Owncast I killed my Twitch account. When PeerTube is up and running I drop YouTube. My point is, I want to thank Reddit for providing me the motivation to leave corporate social media and switch to my own platform. I'm not going back... I'm going forward.
Thanks for this, I hadn't heard of half of these projects and now I'm also looking into them! Pixelfed in particular look amazing. I have a few friends that have been wanting to rid Instagram so will definitely be sending this their way.
If they replace protesting mods then the communities can just overload the new mods until they restrict the sub (again). The real problem is people giving up (which just so aligns with what reddit wants). Personally, that's the reason why I'm leaving because apparently a lot of people genuinely thought that a 2-day blackout would cut it. Yeah, right.
The thing with this is that it will take a HUGE amount of money to do this, unless you're suggesting they'll replace them with new unpaid moderators that are pro-being abused for free labor.
If that's the case, the quality of those subreddits will tank fast because there's no way they'll replace the existing mods with ones as motivated or as experienced as the ones already there.
As much as people love to mock Subreddit Moderators, there's a definite learned skill to doing it well and keeping a community thriving. That's not going to be something easily replaced.
But that's the problem. It's easy to find people who will abuse their mod position. It's harder to find people who will use their mod powers fairly. If the mods in a subreddit - who use their powers fairly to help foster the community - are replaced by power seeking mods who just want to force their views on everyone, then the community will suffer. People will leave and the subreddit will slowly degrade.
So Reddit could definitely replace all the protesting mods with power seeking folks. Reddit will even see a short term gain with the subreddits opened again. However, it will just reinforce people's negative views of mods and will hasten Reddit's decline.
personally it's a little hard for me to believe that reddit admins are hellbent on making sure things are quality seeing how they're acting right now. :p
Just follow the install instructions on the page and let it rip. You can act on or exempt specific subs, act on age, exempt by status, etc. It will also export deleted and modified comments to a CSV for your own use.
I nuked my accounts, editing all comments to “This comment has been deleted in protest of the Reddit API changes of June 2023. Consider visiting Lemmy.world or Kbin.social for an alternative news source.”
I’ll probably go back in on the 29th or 30th and delete everything before closing the accounts.
worked on Chromium for me. Never had success with Firefox, and I don’t touch Edge.
(Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with this project)
Discussion: I arrived at posting this after some soul-searching about destroying inforamtion. In the end, my contributions were derivative from still-extant and viable sources, while I consider Reddit to be a lost cause. I decided it was more abhorrent to me that they continue to profit off the back of my freely-contributed content than to reclaim my contributions, and rehost those contributions at a later date under a more friendly banner.
That was my calculus. You, reader, are welcome respectfully to disagree.
I for one, will most definitely not be doing this. Reddit was such a vital part of the internet during the mid-2010's to early 2020's... it would be a shame it all that history was permanently lost.
I will, however, likely not be going back. I've actually really wanted to take part in a decentralized social community like this for a long time, and I am very excited about what the federation brings to the table, and about the role that Lemmy fills in that network. In a world where the internet seems so much to focus on what is currently going on now, I reckon not contributing to Reddit anymore will have a much greater long-term impact than nuking my previous content, and will allow me to leave my piece of internet history intact on their archive.
There's an argument to be made that it's all been captured in the internet archive, but I still think that reddit gets most of its value from active users, not drivebys looking at posts from a decade ago. I'd rather those vital parts of internet history be findable in their original, SEO captured location, but I also understand the reasoning behind getting rid of all that and moving it strictly into internet archives. The thing is, the 2010s have taught us that the addage "once it's on the internet it's there forever" is patently false. The internet has turned out to be incredibly fragile with big chunks of history that wasn't archived going away forever. Our collective memories have been edited by companies going out of business and deleting all their cloud storage to avoid incurring further cost.
From the perspective of preserving useful knowledge, I wholeheartedly agree that it's a horrible thing to do. Especially when your comments relate important niche information rather than just being the millionth meme on the same template.
That said, I still deleted everything (weren't too many niche info things on my account anyway), because I read a couple times that Reddit's big goal here would be to sell the immense amount of "real people conversations" to AI language model companies, thus possibly still making more money off what's already there even if no new content would be posted again.
**PS: I have no idea how or why my phone did this but while typing, a popup suddenly came "Report Created!". If I somehow reported your (or any other) message here, please ignore this, whoever gets the report! **
I had the same though. But then I started scrolling through my post and comment history and decided I'd rather do something else with my time than consider whether or not a comment I made will be exactly what someone searches for years from now.
But, I should add, that my valuable contributions on reddit are pretty few. I can see how that would be entirely different for someone who is/was incredibly active in answering r/AskHistorians posts.
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