otter,

More links

www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3ggpe3qj6wo

apnews.com/…/icc-khan-netanyahu-070941d21ccd1f2b9…

Karim Khan said that he believes Netanyahu, his defense minister Yoav Gallant and three Hamas leaders — Yehia Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and Ismail Haniyeh — are responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Gaza Strip and Israel.

The prosecutor must request the warrants from a pre-trial panel of three judges, who take on average two months to consider the evidence and determine if the proceedings can move forward.

Israel is not a member of the court, and even if the arrest warrants are issued, Netanyahu and Gallant do not face any immediate risk of prosecution. But Khan’s announcement deepens Israel’s isolation as it presses ahead with its war, and the threat of arrest could make it difficult for the Israeli leaders to travel abroad.

Both Sinwar and Deif are believed to be hiding in Gaza as Israel tries to hunt them down. But Haniyeh, the supreme leader of the Islamic militant group, is based in Qatar and frequently travels across the region.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Putting out arrest warrants on both of them is so smart. It’s a way to avoid people claiming they are taking sides or playing favorites or aiding terrorists or being in favor of genocide or whatever. Both leaders are culpable because both the IDF and Hamas have committed atrocities.

FlowVoid, (edited )

I agree, and I found it interesting that Israeli leaders were not accused of genocide or anything to do with their bombing campaign. Instead, it was the specific war crime of causing starvation due to their interference with humanitarian aid and food delivery. Kind of provides additional context for the US decision to build a floating pier off the Gaza coast.

Maggoty,

That is Genocide, the UN tries not to use the general term whenever possible, and instead use the specific method of genocide. That way it’s a lot harder to No True Scotsman the issue. but If I remember correctly they also charged Extinction and Murder. Then in the supporting documents they talk about systematic bombing and creation of a famine.

FlowVoid, (edited )

No, genocide is an Article 6 charge. The ICC is perfectly willing to use that term, and in fact has explicitly charged Omar al Bashir with genocide under Article 6.

In contrast, Netanyahu and Hamas leaders are accused under Articles 7 and 8. These articles respectively cover “Crimes against humanity” and “War crimes”, but they do not include genocide.

Both Netanyahu and Hamas leaders are accused of “crimes against humanity of murder and extermination” under Article 7.

Netanyahu is also accused of “intentionally using starvation of civilians” under Article 8, whereas Hamas leaders are also accused of “rape and other forms of sexual violence” under Article 8.

There are currently no charges based on the Israeli bombing campaign, but the ICC says this is “actively being investigated.”

Carrolade,

It’s much easier to say that an intentional blockade of food is leading to starvation, and that is a clear war crime. Very simple argument, easier to prove.

Talking about a bombing campaign is more difficult when soldiers are mixed in with the civilians. We may be able to point at the situation and say “that’s clearly fucked up”, but courts don’t work that way. They have to acknowledge that in a war, the army is allowed to destroy the combatants of the enemy. A certain amount of collateral damage in the form of innocent lives lost is allowed by international law. This makes it all much murkier and more difficult to prove what is or is not a genuine war crime. They can’t wing it, or guess, or go by what it “looks like”, they have to prove it, which again, is difficult.

Starvation and depriving food aid though, very easy to prove.

MeThisGuy,

yeh but in today’s age of videos and drones everywhere it should be fairly easy to prove.
before all the AI video lets loose anyways

Yondoza,

It is a politically savvy and ethically correct move. Really nice when those line up.

kamenlady,
@kamenlady@lemmy.world avatar

There’s something satisfying about it.

Gamers_Mate,

At least the ICC is willing to do the right thing.

LifeInMultipleChoice,

We’ll see in time. Also not sure much will be done if they are. Remember the warrant for Putin was placed March of 2023. The impact on Russia so far seems about summed up to be “Putin can’t attend a D-Day remembrance, and he probably shouldn’t go see the Olympics, which he wouldn’t”

Maggoty,

On the other hand, Israel is not Russia. Netanyahu’s vacation options effectively just dwindled to Israel and the US, with no layovers. The Hamas guys are already living as fugitives so not much changes there.

cygnus, (edited )
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

Putting out arrest warrants on both of them is so smart. It’s a way to avoid people claiming they are taking sides or playing favorites or aiding terrorists or being in favor of genocide or whatever.

It would be absurd and unjust to issue a warrant for only one of them. This was the right thing to do.

AmosBurton,

deleted_by_author

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  • geissi,

    One of the best jokes to come out of the UN in a long time.

    The ICC is not a UN organization

    OsrsNeedsF2P,

    Do you know what an arrest warrant is?

    Also, the ICC court has not yet ruled on it. A prosecutor requested it.

    Pohl,

    People’s take on this stuff always seems so naive to me. All war ever can be viewed as an attempt to arrest the leader of another group for “crimes”. When you get arrested… that means you lost the war. Winning a war means you didn’t get arrested.

    The ICC is such a silly stupid waste of human attention. It’s like an idea that children came up with after watching Star Trek. It has no utility whatsoever for our species. We fight, we have winners and losers. If you start a fight with somebody stronger than you, you are gonna have a bad time. If you start a fight with someone weaker than you, others will think you are dishonorable. That doesn’t mean you get arrested.

    TokenBoomer,

    This interpretation is a vague apologia for war crimes. This line of thinking means the Nuremberg Trials were a complete waste of time and the Nazis should not be held accountable.

    Pohl,

    No, it means they were ONLY held accountable because they lost the war.

    Nobody prosecuted Churchill for Dresden

    TokenBoomer,

    Israel is losing?

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    ICC signatories have to arrest anyone with a warrant against them if they visit that country. That severely limits the number of state visits Netanyahu and others with warrants against them can make. That’s not a minor thing. Big deals are made during state visits.

    Pohl,

    Anybody who tries to arrest him will be at war with Israel and probably the US and probably a lot of other nations. They will break their treaty with ICC before they start that war and everyone fucking knows it. Why do we pretend?

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    And yet this stopped Putin from going to South Africa.

    phoenixz,

    Yeah you have no idea what the ICC is or what it does, nor what this warrant implies. You really believe that the ICC has done nothing? You should do some reading.

    This warrant won’t go away and the countries that this guy can still visit with this warrant will b extremely limited. This also puts much more pressure on Israel as he is now officially lumped in with other convicted war criminals. This is a good thing ™

    Sam_Bass, (edited )

    Sinwar in a war of sin. Kinda poetic

    Daft_ish, (edited )

    Ok but why isnt joesph (stalin) biden serving the warrants himself?

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Joseph Stalin? So you’re calling Biden a communist?

    Let’s see your definition of communism and an explanation of how that applies to the Biden Administration.

    Daft_ish,

    Lol

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s not a definition.

    Daft_ish,

    Oops

    Fades, (edited )

    Good, this is a situation in which both sides are both truly disgusting and vile, using people as pawns, shields, etc.

    Treczoks,

    And both sides are equally pissed off being put on the same level as the others.

    phoenixz,

    Yeah, for some reason too many people are having difficulty understanding that in this case, yes, the both side argument works quite well. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are horrible with the citizens on both side suffering

    rhandyrhoads,

    Definitely agree. Although I will add that Israel has likely played a large part in radicalizing many members of Hamas and their actions in Palestine have dwarfed the initial Hamas attack, no atrocity should go unpunished.

    phoenixz,

    Both points are valid so yeah, both are bad to the point that both groups should be tried by the ICC and be locked away for life, all of them

    Ultraviolet, (edited )

    It’s worth clarifying that the Palestinian civilians are not Hamas though. It’s also misleading to say they elected them democratically, as the median Palestinian was a literal infant when the last election happened, and nearly half weren’t even born.

    phoenixz,

    I’m counting Palestinian civilians separate from Hamas, just like the Israeli government is t the same as it’s people

    SpaceCowboy,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    FFS so Netanyahu was extremely close to being pushed out of power and this dumbass pulls this stunt (just to get publicity) which only makes it easy for Netanyahu to make the case that “it’s us against the world”. He’s also seeking to prosecute Gallant, the guy that would most likely make the push to remove Netanyahu. So he’s pushing Gallant back towards falling back in line with Natanyahu.

    Does this idiot want Netanyahu to stay in power? He’s basically throwing a lifeline to Bibi while throwing away the credibility of the ICC. Never attribute to malice and all that, so likely just a moron.

    Fuck, I was starting to have some hope the Netanyahu could be gone in the next few weeks and this guy is pulling out all the stops to keep him in power. All to get his face on TV.

    Muehe,

    What the fuck kind of argument is this? Courts aren’t supposed to play politics, they are supposed to enforce the law. And if you want to do that in a genocide case you have to prove intent. Gallant made several public statements that can interpreted in that way.

    SpaceCowboy,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    This guy is playing politics. If he wasn’t he’d just put in the paperwork instead of sitting down for an interview with CNN.

    See how Jack Smith, a serious prosecutor rolls. There are very few press conferences and they are concise and to the point.

    This guy is playing games to get publicity, he’s probably working on a book deal or whatever right now to monetize the publicity.

    avidamoeba, (edited )
    @avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

    The position of support for creating a famine (or not giving a shit to stop it) seems to have wider support than just Bibi. This guy’s move puts in focus that creating a famine is a war crime, and he’s forcing the Israelis players to face that and state their support or lack thereof clearly. Getting rid of Bibi alone might not increase the aid in Gaza. If the other party leaders aren’t willing to throw Bibi and Gallant under the bus for this and/or shift gears on aid, then perhaps the Israeli political class is too far gone and the world should increase the pressure till someone gets it and starts telling the Israeli public that what’s happening is wrong and is extremely counterproductive for Israel as whole.

    Also, some polling shows Bibi’s coalition being neck and neck with the alternative so the narrative that Bibi is certain to be ejected by Israel’s democracy isn’t so solid.

    SpaceCowboy,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Israel asked for help from Arab countries in providing support in dealing with the humanitarian crisis. They laughed in the Israelis faces.

    The problem is too many people are willing to let the Palestinians die in order to win some propaganda war against Israel. I don’t feel like anyone really cares about Palestinians. They’d rather Palestinians die so they can have proof Israel is evil.

    Joe Biden has built a pier to provide aid. This is more than anyone else has done to prevent famine. But the propaganda says he’s “Genocide Joe”.

    absentbird,
    @absentbird@lemm.ee avatar

    I’ve seen stickers around the town where I live calling him “Jihad Joe” for helping the Palestinians. He gets hate coming and going, meanwhile thousands of tons of aid are reaching the people of Gaza because of him.

    SpaceCowboy,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    I’ve always said the Pro-Palestine crowd and the MAGAs are basically the same people. Gotta ignore anything that doesn’t conform to whichever narrative they’ve gotten sucked into.

    TokenBoomer,

    “You have to finish up your war. You have to finish it up. You’ve got to get it done,” he said in an interview with Israeli newspaper Israel Hayom. “We’ve got to get to peace. You can’t have this going on, and I will say Israel has to be very careful because you are losing a lot of the world. You are losing a lot of support.”

    Donald Trump

    supersquirrel,

    I’ve always said the Pro-Palestine crowd and the MAGAs are basically the same people.

    Why because you are an ideologically bankrupt centrist that finds it convenient to equate protestors desperately trying to stop a genocide with MAGA heads… who tried to violently overthrow the US government because it wasn’t hateful enough for them?

    You aren’t welcome in the progressive coalition if you desire to ignore reality in favor of a “both sides” narrative to the degree you are doing. We are talking about a genocide here and you are saying the people trying to stop it are crazy, violent hateful extremists who are obsessed with hurting trans people for no reason, fucking over women and taking power away from everybody but white men.

    TokenBoomer, (edited )

    Really. Really? Disinformation is easily disproved.

    absentbird,
    @absentbird@lemm.ee avatar

    The pier is having trouble getting aid past the Israeli offensive, but over 1000 tons have already been airdropped, and once logistics are worked out for the pier it’s expected to deliver 500 tons of aid per day.

    TokenBoomer,

    Well, this didn’t age well

    Asked whether any of the aid has been delivered to the people of Gaza, Ryder said, “As of today, I do not believe so.”

    avidamoeba,
    @avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

    What are you talking about… Arab countries didn’t stop food and water going into Gaza, Israel’s leadership did.

    SpaceCowboy,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    They were asked to help distribute food and refused. Just something you’re not you seeing in your information silo.

    breakfastmtn,
    @breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca avatar

    Can we talk about a story that’s fallen through the cracks here? CNN claiming this as an exclusive is madness. Who do these people think they are? And should the ICC issue arrest warrants about it? 😉

    postmateDumbass,

    All the better to control the narrative if you can DCMA the rest?

    Is Giuliani behind this tact?

    solo,

    CNN claiming this as an exclusive is madness

    That’s an excellent point you’re making

    Siegfried,

    EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW

    Have anyone opened the link?

    breakfastmtn,
    @breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca avatar

    They changed it to that considerably less bonkers headline. Perhaps because they became of aware of their legal exposure under international laws against poor taste…? 🧐

    Owljfien,

    Also, not sure if just me, but I couldn’t give a flying fuck whether a news outlet is first to break a story or not. Seems a bit self conglatulatory

    TokenBoomer,

    “Let me be clear,” the president said in the statement, “whatever this prosecutor might imply, there is no equivalence – none – between Israel and Hamas.”

    Biden saying the right things as usual. /s

    nednobbins,

    It’s true. Hamas is posting rookie numbers. They’ve got to up their death count by around 10x before they can be in Israel’s league.

    Maggoty,

    At this point they need to gag the man and have surrogates stump for him.

    postmateDumbass, (edited )

    Calling on the militant branch of the Yang Gang?

    TokenBoomer,

    It’s a good thing that he’s not President and this is all Trump’s fault. /s

    Jimmyeatsausage,

    Yeah, Trump certainly helped stabilize the area by moving the Embassy. And that mid-east peace plan his SIL got paid $2 billion for was worth every cent.

    Maggoty,

    Haha, just mention Trump and you guys show up. We’re not pro Trump.

    AFC1886VCC,

    They’ve already called it antisemitic.

    LordOfLocksley,

    ICC is hamas

    baatliwala,

    Fucking hell got so confused by the title, was wondering what the fuck do these guys have to do with cricket.

    Blackmist,

    The cricket council honestly has more chance of bringing any of these cunts to justice than the real ICC.

    I mean fucking Kony is still on the list, and I forget how long ago that was a thing, and he was on their list long before that.

    AngryCommieKender,

    I finally “learned” the rules of cricket, and now understand why Americans created baseball. A game takes a fucking week‽‽ We don’t have time for that shit!

    MeThisGuy,

    same could be said about NBA, MLB, and NHL playoffs

    AngryCommieKender,

    Those games are completely different from cricket. Baseball has some pretty close similarities to cricket

    mlg,
    @mlg@lemmy.world avatar

    iirc Hitler had it banned from Germany after learning the week long match against England ended with no result lmao.

    Anyways that’s the test cricket format. The typical game is ODI which lasts about 7 hours, and the world cup happening this June is T20I which lasts 2.5 hours and is the most exciting to watch.

    random8847,

    There are one day matches too.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Let’s check what the left wing “progressive” israelis think about this.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9046d608-ebb7-49e9-9786-ecc00f9a1e3c.png

    beardown,

    Herein lies one of the innumerable differences between democratic socialists and liberals

    Valmond,

    It’s not comparing them, they have just all went over the bar for being war criminals.

    afraid_of_zombies, (edited )

    This is the first one they have issued to a non-Africans, right?

    Megabazos, (edited )

    Putin and another Russian, Maria, have been indicted as well, according to Wikipedia

    Cornelius_Wangenheim,

    There’s also open cases against Putin’s puppets in Georgia for the invasion of South Ossetia.

    afraid_of_zombies,

    Oh wow. TIL

    frezik,

    Slobodan Milošević was put to trial under a parallel organization, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The ICC didn’t exist yet when the ICTY was founded.

    Sloby died in jail before coming to a verdict.

    Gregonar,

    Anyone else thinks these two look remarkably similar?

    beveradb,

    Haggered

    ArmokGoB,

    Haguerd

    NotMyOldRedditName, (edited )

    I think it’s mainly the eyebrows they way they’re pointed up in roughly the same spot.

    Doesn’t seem as much beyond that to me

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