Putin Unleashes Record Bombing in Ukraine as the World Watches Gaza

Almost 90 bombs were dropped in one region in just 24 hours.

Russia unleashed an unprecedented bombardment in southern Ukraine overnight in what local officials described as a “massive attack” in the conflict which has continued to rage even as the international community’s attention has moved to the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

The Ukrainian Internal Affairs Ministry on Monday morning said Russia dropped at least “87 aerial bombs on populated areas of the Kherson region - the largest number for all time.” At least eight people were also injured in other Russian strikes carried out in the Odessa region further to the west on Sunday night.

downpunxx,
downpunxx avatar

Russia ----> Iran -----> Hamas

Israel, the USA, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia were in the midst of high level talks for KSA to recognize Israel with the United States providing a weapons package to KSA, and then 4000 "Palestinians" stormed the Israeli border on October 7th, raped, burnt, beheaded and slaughtered close to 2000 Israeli citizens, causing the largest loss of Jewish life, in any single day, anywhere, since the end of the Holocaust

AngryCommieKender,

Could you provide a source on these talks between US, KSA, and Israel? This sounds plausible, but it would be the first I’ve heard of it.

stella,

He’s probably living in a fantasy world.

HubertManne,
HubertManne avatar

nope. he put in some links but it was regularly in the news for months. Its been going on for a long time. Well it mostly might have been mentioned on public radio considering my media habits.

rowrowrowyourboat,

reuters.com/…/us-saudi-defence-pact-tied-israel-d…

Sept 29 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia is determined to secure a military pact requiring the United States to defend the kingdom in return for opening ties with Israel and will not hold up a deal even if Israel does not offer major concessions to Palestinians in their bid for statehood, three regional sources familiar with the talks said.

A pact might fall short of the cast-iron, NATO-style defence guarantees the kingdom initially sought when the issue was first discussed between Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and Joe Biden during the U.S. president’s visit to Saudi Arabia in July 2022.

Instead, a U.S. source said it could look like treaties Washington has with Asian states or, if that would not win U.S. Congress approval, it could be similar to a U.S. agreement with Bahrain, where the U.S. Navy Fifth Fleet is based. Such an agreement would not need congressional backing.

Washington could also sweeten any deal by designating Saudi Arabia a Major Non-NATO Ally, a status already given to Israel, the U.S. source said.

But all the sources said Saudi Arabia would not settle for less than binding assurances of U.S. protection if it faced attack, such as the Sept. 14, 2019 missile strikes on its oil sites that rattled world markets. Riyadh and Washington blamed Iran, the kingdom’s regional rival, although Tehran denied having a role.

Agreements giving the world’s biggest oil exporter U.S. protection in return for normalisation with Israel would reshape the Middle East by bringing together two longtime foes and binding Riyadh to Washington after China’s inroads in the region. For Biden, it would be a diplomatic victory to vaunt before the 2024 U.S. election.

The Palestinians could get some Israeli restrictions eased but such moves would fall short of their aspirations for a state. As with other Arab-Israeli deals forged over the decades, the Palestinian core demand for statehood would take a back seat, the three regional sources familiar with the talks said.

“The normalisation will be between Israel and Saudi Arabia. If the Palestinians oppose it the kingdom will continue in its path,” said one of the regional sources. “Saudi Arabia supports a peace plan for the Palestinians, but this time it wanted something for Saudi Arabia, not just for the Palestinians.”

The Saudi government did not respond to emailed questions about this article.

‘LESS THAN A FULL TREATY’

A U.S. official, who like others declined to be named because of the sensitivity of the matter, said the parameters of a defence pact were still being worked out, adding that what was being discussed “would not be a treaty alliance or anything like that … It would be a mutual defence understanding, less than a full treaty.”

The official said it would be more like the U.S. relationship with Israel, which receives the most advanced U.S. weapons and holds joint air force and missile defence drills.

A source in Washington familiar with the discussions said MbS had asked for a NATO-style treaty but said Washington was reluctant to go as far as NATO’s Article 5 commitment that an attack on one ally is considered an attack on all.

The source said Biden’s aides could consider a pact patterned on those with Japan and other Asian allies, under which the U.S. pledges military support but is less explicit about whether U.S. troops would be deployed. However, the source said some U.S. lawmakers might resist such a pact.

Another template, which would not need congressional approval, would be the agreement signed with Bahrain on Sept. 13, in which the U.S. pledged to “deter and confront any external aggression” but also said the two governments would consult to determine what, if any, action would be taken.

The source in Washington said Saudi Arabia could be designated a Major Non-NATO Ally, a step which had long been considered. This status, which several Arab states such as Egypt have, comes with a range of benefits, such as training.

The second of the regional sources said Riyadh was compromising in some demands to help secure a deal, including over its plans for civilian nuclear technology. The source said Saudi Arabia was ready to sign Section 123 of the U.S. Atomic Energy Act, establishing a framework for U.S. peaceful nuclear cooperation, a move Riyadh previously refused to take.

The Gulf source said the kingdom was prepared to accept a pact that did not match a NATO Article 5 guarantee but said the U.S. had to commit to protecting Saudi Arabia if its territory was attacked. The source also said a deal could be similar to Bahrain’s agreement but with extra commitments.

‘LOTS OF WORK TO DO’

In response to emailed questions about details in this article, a U.S. State Department spokesperson said: “Many of the key elements of a pathway towards normalisation are now on the table and there is a broad understanding of those elements, which we will not discuss publicly.”

“There’s still lots of work to do, and we’re working through it,” the spokesperson added, saying there was not yet a formal framework and stakeholders were working on legal and other elements.

The spokesperson did not address specifics about the U.S.-Saudi defence pact in the response.

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has hailed the possibility of a “historic” peace with Saudi Arabia, the heartland of Islam. But to secure the prize, Netanyahu has to win the approval of parties in his a far-right coalition which reject any concessions to the Palestinians.

MbS said in a Fox News interview this month that the kingdom was moving steadily closer to normalising ties with Israel. He spoke about the need for Israel to “ease the life of the Palestinians” but made no mention of Palestinian statehood.

Nevertheless, diplomats and the regional sources said MbS was insisting on some commitments from Israel to show he was not abandoning the Palestinians and that he was seeking to keep the door open to a two-state solution.

Those would include demanding Israel transfer some Israeli-controlled territory in the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority (PA), limit Jewish settlement activity and halt any steps to annex parts of the West Bank. Riyadh has also promised financial aid to the PA, the diplomats and sources said.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has said any bargain must recognise the Palestinian right to a state within the 1967 borders, including East Jerusalem, and must stop Israeli settlement building. However, all the sources said a Saudi-Israeli deal was unlikely to address those flashpoint issues.

Netanyahu has said Palestinians should not have a veto over any peacemaking deal.

Yet, even if the U.S, Israel and Saudi Arabia agree, winning support from lawmakers in the U.S. Congress remains a challenge.

Republicans and those in Biden’s Democratic Party have previously denounced Riyadh for its military intervention in Yemen, its moves to prop up oil prices and its role in the 2018 killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who worked for the Washington Post. MbS denied ordering the killing.

“What’s important for Saudi Arabia is for Biden to have the pact approved by Congress,” the first regional source said, pointing to concessions Riyadh was making to secure a deal.

For Biden, a deal that builds a U.S.-Israeli-Saudi axis could put a brake on China’s diplomatic inroads after Beijing brokered a rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and Iran, which Washington accuses of seeking nuclear arms. Tehran denies this.

“There was a sense that the U.S. has abandoned the region,” said one diplomat. “By courting China, the Saudis wanted to create some anxiety that will make the U.S. re-engage. It has worked.”

Reporting by Samia Nakhoul in Dubai, James Mackenzie, Dan Williams and Ali Sawafta in Jerusalmen, Aziz El Yaacouby in Riyadh, Steve Holland, Matt Spetalnick, Humeyra Pamuk and Patricia Zengerle in Washington; Writing by Samia Nakhoul; Editing by Edmund Blair

ArtikBanana,

deleted_by_author

    •
    AngryCommieKender,

    Thanks for the articles!

    Between this and finding out that there’s natural gas under Gaza I’m getting suspicious

    jarfil,

    Wait until you hear it’s not “under Gaza” but under the sea, in what would be Gaza’s “economic influence” area… and that the Palestinian Authority has been in talks with Egypt to extract it, while Israel has been in talks with US corporations.

    The gas is expected to be worth about 400 billion USD.

    AngryCommieKender,

    Didn’t know all those details, except I was under the impression that EU and Israeli companies were the ones trying to extract the gas, the US wasn’t directly involved in that from the few articles I’ve seen about it.

    Did know about the fact that they are squabbling over a mere $400 billion. Fucking chump change at an international level. We could easily pay both sides that much and not hurt our budget.

    ParsnipWitch,

    Israel, US, Europe would always share the gas (through protected and exclusive trades). These parties all win when one of them wins. The same goes for Islamic States and the Arabic League.

    Israel was a perfect and unfortunate point to disrupt an otherwise closed up and profitable region for the powers in the middle east.

    jarfil,

    You’re right, I’ve checked my notes and it mentions Shell; technically British now, post-BREXIT, but it has branches all over the world.

    Anyway, the problem with those $400B is… if a corporation can sell for $400B and it only costs them $200B to extract and distribute it plus $20B to kill everyone in Gaza… that’s $180B of “clean” money (just dripping some blood). Shell’s yearly revenue is $380B, with a net income of $40B, so they’re just the kind who might consider it a reasonable 5-10 year plan.

    acidagfc,

    Makes sense, UN can only produce a finite amount of concern, not enough to express it on 2 major conflicts.

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    UN doing absolutely diddly in two major theaters of conflict rather than just the one.

    KevonLooney,

    The UN’s role is to prevent conflict between major powers, not stop all war period. It has done an exemplary job at that, better than any organization in history. There have been no wars between major world powers in the past 75 years. Prior to that, all empires were constantly at each other’s throats.

    ichbinjasokreativ,

    idk how much of that really is the UN and how much can just be attributed to mutually assured destruction

    KevonLooney,

    Good point, but we can understand it as a parallel solution. People deride the UN as a debate society, but that’s the point. Countries yell at each other and get domestic points that way instead of attacking each other.

    AnUnusualRelic,
    @AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

    You don’t understand what the UN is. It’s a common misconception.

    The purpose of the UN is to have a diplomatic environment where all can be heard in front of all others. It’s to encourage diplomatic solutions to problems and to defuse conflicts.

    The UN doesn’t have any way to do anything, it’s merely a fancy forum. Its members could meet at the UN and decide to do something (although it can be legally complicated) but that’s not on the UN.

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    The purpose of the UN is to have a diplomatic environment where all can be heard in front of all others.

    A dialogue that fails to yield productive policy is mere busy work.

    It’s to encourage diplomatic solutions to problems and to defuse conflicts.

    Right now we’re having a debate over whether a ceasefire would be antisemitic. That’s not a conversation that behooves diplomatic solutions or defuses conflicts. It just serves to distract public attention while folks in Gaza are exterminated.

    AnUnusualRelic,
    @AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

    We all hope that you’ll graduate into the diplomatic corps of whatever place you’re in and single-handedly solve the world’s problems. Best luck to you.

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    There’s certain openings. Since the war started, even Biden’s designated state department armies dealer can no longer stomach the job.

    AMillionNames,

    The world watching has never stopped him before.

    salvador, (edited )

    One day US and EU propaganda claim that Putin and Russia are on a brick of collapse, that the russian army is unable of anything and UA is winning. The next day they’ll cry that the same russian army is 1st or 2nd strongest in the world, that it overpowers UA in all ways possible despite that US and EU help the latter.

    And so on back and forth. Yet they claim that they don’t engage in propaganda and misinformation.

    loutr,
    @loutr@sh.itjust.works avatar

    russian army is way more professional than th UA one

    Never seen a single western article claiming that.

    salvador,

    Putin is a master of your mind - he makes you think of him all the time.

    nothingness, (edited )

    What else should Putin have done that servers the interests of Russia and russians the best?

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    Get out of Ukraine sounds good for a start.

    loutr,
    @loutr@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Yeah but you see, he can’t, because NATO made him do it. NATO is weak and decadent by the way, but simultaneously strong enough to force Nice Guy Putin into doing things he wouldn’t have done otherwise.

    What I really mean to say is, the West is responsible for these bombings (I am very intelligent).

    salvador, (edited )

    US and Eu neglect the interests of Russia, but they don’t like it when Russia does the same towards them. Magic?

    Russia hasn’t even started.

    loutr,
    @loutr@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Wat

    nothingness, (edited )

    But why have the US and West not been able to kick him out? Isn’t Russia a gas-station? Isn’t Putin weak? Isn’t the Russian army weak? Isn’t “the whole world” agaist Putin? Isn’t UA winning all the time, at any given time?

    salvador,

    How would then Putin defeat US and EU?

    krzschlss,
    @krzschlss@lemmy.world avatar

    Buy 2 TVs, so you can watch both human miseries unfold at the same time! Better than anything Hollywood or Bollywood or Nollywood could ever produce! And when you get bored, just vote in another war fueling and genocide financing psychopathic “lesser evil” moron into the office, so you never get bored of human despair and pain.

    orrk,

    honestly? America only had as much to do with the Ukraine war as it was giving them the ability to defend themselves.

    Resol,
    @Resol@lemmy.world avatar

    I think he doesn’t want Laos to be the most bombed country in the world anymore.

    phoenixz,

    90 bombs is more what was dropped per second there, not per day

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    Yeah calling 90 bombs ‘record’ is a deep, almost orange hue of piss yellow journalism

    calavera,

    Might be record in the context of the Ukraine war not in all human history

    Illuminostro,

    And still getting his ass kicked by civilian volunteers with drones.

    Why don’t the Russian people get rid of this asshole?

    Zevlen,

    Gosh… Why didn’t the Germans kill Hitler? Why didn’t Japanese kill their “emperor” during world war 2? Why didn’t soviets kill Stalin or lenin ? What’s up with the dictators in China, why didn’t the Chinese kill them ? Why don’t the north Koreans kill their “leader”? Why didn’t Iraqi people kill Saddam Husain? Why didn’t Syria kill their Bashar al Assad? Why didn’t the Cubans kill Fidel Castro? Why didn’t the French kill Napoleon Bonaparte?

    Maybe 🤔😏 people just LOVE living under dictatorial regimes?

    Who knows?.. We’ll probably never know…

    /S

    HerbalGamer,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    We were all wondering how Trump made it out alive tbh

    Illuminostro,

    The French managed it. The Haitians. Even the Libyans. I know it’s easier said than done, but quitters never win, do they?

    WoahWoah,

    Commented their way to revolution. Got it.

    Sanyanov,

    It’s a little harder than you imagine Source: I’m Russian

    Zevlen, (edited )

    Ye, me too brother. People think 🤔 Russia is like easily changeable or something… I think people forget just how many Russians and other people Russians have killed and imprisoned since Russia began so to say. I think people don’t understand that Russia never had a democracy… Ever. I don’t think people get that it’s not easy to live and survive in Russia no matter when and where…

    Also it’s as if people pretend not to know that if You protest 🪧 anything in Russia; you’re fucked.

    People also don’t know that the policemen rape people / men in prison. They torture You and rape you. At anytime You can be put in an MMA style fight against an opponent who will brutalize You before You die of the physical injuries.

    I don’t think people understand that if the world doesn’t help to establish a democracy in Russia that Russia will always ; always go back to its corrupt ways.

    I don’t think people understand that there are also Russians who’ve been totally brainwashed just the same way that people got / get brainwashed in states like China, north Korea and Nazi Germany ( in the passed ) , imperial Japan etc.

    I don’t think people get that its not easy to be the hero a martar or organize a rebellion when you’re under a violent regime and when all you have is your small family or none at all

    MuuuaadDib,

    Seems pretty simple, get tank, stand on tank with paper, scream loudly and voila we are done. Also, radiation salad works well.

    Piafraus,

    Comparing to this, getting into Russia is even simpler, so you can do all of those things, that are simple to you to type yourself. Go for it, we root for you!

    MuuuaadDib,

    Look I got these U-239 croutons off Wish and I could certainly use them.

    Karyoplasma,

    Wish scammed you and it’s now Pu-239.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Why don’t the israelis get rid of Netanyahu?

    Why don’t the Americans get rid of Genocide Joe?

    Be the change you want to see in the world.

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    Its different because America and Israel are democracies. Therefore, they can kill as many people as they want and its okay actually.

    Putin is an evil dictator leading a rogue state (That’s on the verge of collapse! Any day now!) And suggesting he is in any way like an Israeli or an American flags you as a Chinese Robot Antifa Fifth Columnist Hamas Affiliated Trump Supporter.

    TranscendentalEmpire,

    That’s a false dichotomy… Joe Biden is a genocidal Zionist and Putin is an ethno-national imperialist, there is no inherent conflict with those statements.

    They are both the heads of militaristic, expansionist, capitalist governments. I never saw why people on the left are cheering for Putin. Is he in opposition to the western hegemony? Yes, but only because it stands in competition to his own western hegemony.

    It’s like you guys are embodying the Godzilla “let them fight meme”, but forgetting that they are murdering thousands of people in the process.

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s like you guys are embodying the Godzilla “let them fight meme”, but forgetting that they are murdering thousands of people in the process.

    The meme was something of a joke in the movie, in large part because all anyone could do was kick back and let them go at one another. At best, a distraction would involve one or the other flattening you and getting back to the business at hand.

    The Ukraine War is very much a Clash of the Titans, in so far as there’s nothing a domestic Russian or American do to oppose these colossal military forces. To actively oppose the old Cold War powers is an exercise in futility. All you can really hope for is that they exhaust themselves - possibly even kill each other off - and leave you alone.

    rengoku2,

    Rogue state?

    Anything that is not Western enough is rogue to this guy.

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    Hey now. Don’t discount all of our client states.

    Motavader,

    Genocide Joe? 🙄

    And who should voters replace him with, Mr Answers?

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    If you have to choose between Hitler and Stalin consider voting for a third party or not voting.

    Voting for any person means you approve of their actions and you are complicit and responsible for them.

    Pogbom,

    Voting for any person means you approve of their actions and you are complicit and responsible for them.

    I don’t think it means that necessarily. It’s just as valid to vote strategically against an even worse party if they have a chance of winning. It’s not morally contentious to vote for the lesser of two evils.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    If you keep voting for the lesser of two evils there will never an incentive for a good one to show up because you won’t vote for them anyways.

    You’re too busy voting for Genocide Joe.

    Pogbom,

    Well I Iive in Canada but point taken. I’m still not sure I agree that it’s on the voter to let the worse party win just to support a burgeoning better one. I’d say the responsibility is on that better party to secure their base and show a reasonable chance to win before asking voters to risk the worse party winning.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    I can agree that concessions need to be made but any party that supports literal should never ever receive a vote.

    In that case it’s time to pull out the classic

    media.tenor.com/…/are-we-the-baddies-bad.gif

    The moral option is then a third party that doesn’t support genocide to show that any party supporting it will never win your vote.

    hanekam,

    Genocide Joe? 🙄

    People are really working to rob that word of all meaning

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Top UN officials have called this a a textbook case of genocide in all aspects. Even BEFORE Oct 7.

    You are a modern holocaust denier. A special thing to observe.

    hanekam,

    Asserting that Joe Biden hasn’t committed any genocides is not denying the holocaust. You know this very well, I think.

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    Are they? Or do you just not consider Arab people humans? Maybe specifically Palestinians are the bad ones we can exterminate, in your mind?

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    Or do you just not consider Arab people humans?

    Its been standing US policy to dehumanize Arab people since at least 2001.

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    Since the shores of Tripoli

    hanekam,

    Which Arab nations have Joe Biden exterminated, exactly?

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    So if it’s not a genocide until you finish the job, you think the Nazis are innocent, I take it?

    hanekam,

    Which Arab nations are Joe Biden currently exterminating, then?

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    I see downvotes but I see no interaction with the two true assertions that make for this argument. Biden has the immediate power to stop this. And the this is a genocide of Palestinians.

    Illuminostro, (edited )

    And how exactly would he do that? I wasn’t aware he was The King of Israel. Should he threaten to nuke them?

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    responsiblestatecraft.org/…/ronald-reagan-wasnt-a…

    In addition to not vetoing UN resolutions, Reagan took several actions that many in Israel and the United States perceived as anti-Israel. For example, on June 7, 1981, less than six months after Reagan took office, Israel launched a surprise bombing raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, and, in so doing, violated the airspace of Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Reagan not only supported UNSC Resolution 487, which condemned the attack, but he also criticized the raid publicly and suspended the delivery of advanced F-16 fighter jets to Israel. Moreover, over the strident objections of Israel and the pro-Israel U.S. lobby groups, Reagan approved the sale of advanced reconnaissance aircraft (AWACS ) to Saudi Arabia, which Israel then viewed as a hostile state.

    A year later, in August 1982, when Israeli forces advanced beyond southern Lebanon and began shelling the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) in Beirut, Reagan responded with an angry call to Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, demanding a halt to the operation.

    In addition, during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, Reagan intervened directly when Israel threatened to blow up the Commodore Hotel in downtown Beirut, which housed more than 100 western reporters. As David Ottaway, who was then the Washington Post Middle East correspondent and was in the building, pointed out, the Israeli defense minister did not like the media coverage the invasion was getting and wanted to close down the media center.

    Biden, on the other hand, even though he had an hour’s notice, failed to intervene to stop Netanyahu from bombing and collapsing the 12-story building that housed the offices of Al Jazeera and the Associated Press in Gaza during the recent bombing campaign. He also failed to publicly condemn the attack, let alone challenge Israel’s contention that the building sheltered Hamas military intelligence assets, despite AP’s insistence that its staff had no evidence that such assets were or ever had been present.

    In addition to allowing the UN resolutions to pass and suspending the F-16 delivery, Reagan also restricted aid and military assistance to Israel to help force its withdrawal of troops from Beirut and central Lebanon.

    Therefore, if in the future some members of the Biden administration or Congress want to join the international community in condemning Israel’s behavior, or in conditioning U.S. assistance or arms transfers and face resistance from Republicans, they need only point to the precedents established by President Reagan in the first instance.

    Illuminostro,

    First of all, fuck Ronald Reagan.

    Second, BIDEN IS NOT THE FUCKING PRESIDENT OF ISRAEL.

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    Neither was Reagan. What does it say that Biden’s worse on Israel foreign policy than Hollywood’s biggest ghoul?

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    Repeating the same meaningless thought terminator like a fucking child

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    Israel is a client state of the US. Biden could simply threaten to revoke aid and they would immediately stop the bombing. Their defense minister said so outright not long ago.

    Liberals tell you they’re powerless so they can pretend to be good people who simply have no means to stop the status quo. Don’t believe them on either part.

    Illuminostro,

    You’re delusional.

    Also, fuck Putin.

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    What does Putin have to do with this, non delusional person?

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    Its just a thing we’re expected to say.

    Fuck Putin. Fuck Hamas. Fuck Trump.

    Its the sound you make when you want to draw a sharp line between Our Glorious Patriots and Their Villainous Terrorists.

    RichCaffeineFlavor, (edited )

    The Dot World Unlemmy Activities Committee

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Maybe

    • check notes

    Stop sending billions in bombs to them knowing they’re gonna blow up Palestinian kids with them.

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    I reject the premise of your comment.

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    neener neener poo poo to you as well

    NotMyOldRedditName,

    “We are all domestic terrorists”

    That’s what they do.

    Edit: They even called the congressman who pulled the fire alarm to delay voting so people could read the bill, an insurrectionist.

    SuperSpruce,

    Israel managed to get rid of Netenyahu for a year or two but then he regained power.

    RealPuyo,

    So he’s… not dead?

    Sanyanov,

    Saying goes it is a doppler

    WuTang,
    • Russian: fighting an armed country and fueled by NATO members
    • Israel: fighting. I mean BOMBING from their heated offices, civil without shoes and haven’t sleep for 2weeks

    Oh and between, Russia has been cut off from SWIFT, assets frozen if not stolen, etc etc… Israel? freepass

    You can’t make more cynical, and binary treatment, you can’t

    ___,

    I don’t support Israel, but the Russians attacked unprovoked. They’re not 1:1.

    Guydht,

    Russia: fighting to expand their territory because they want a new world order led by them Israel: responding to their most terrifying act of terror ever happened on their land.

    Reason matters, and a lot. Russia has no good reason to invade Ukraine, Israel has a very good reason to invade Gaza.

    Honytawk,

    There is a difference between invading and turning Gaza into a concentration camp.

    You’d think the Jews would know better.

    Guydht,

    Oh right, Gaza the concentration camp where children are forced to work with no pay, women are raped then killed and trains are used to carry people for 3 days without water/food to a gas chamber killing everyone.

    Oh oops that was the Holocaust. Silly me, it’s just that the media told me Gazans are experiencing the holocaust so I mixed the two up.

    givesomefucks,

    Theyre both violating the Geneva Convention…

    There’s no valid reason to violate that, that’s the whole point of it.

    OtakuAltair,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    givesomefucks,

    Lots of other countries manage to fight terrorism without violating the Geneva Convention and killing over 10,000 civilians…

    Do you think Israel is just that incompetent they can’t?

    If so, how does it make sense to give a government so incompetent literal billions of dollars a year?

    But regardless of why the fact is the Geneva Convention is being openly violated. Which is a precedent that hurts literally every human on Earth

    OtakuAltair, (edited )

    deleted_by_author

    •
    givesomefucks,

    Well, that’s your opinion, and I don’t care much for Bidens opinion either.

    Over the decades of his political career, the only times he’s criticized Israels human rights abuses is to tell them it makes it harder for us to give them billions of dollars a year.

    He doesn’t care about murdered Palestinian citizens, he just wants to keep the pipeline going so US defense firms get funneled tax payer money.

    Do you not know anything about his political history before 2008?

    Illuminostro,

    It’s the same reason all American Presidents are “friendly” with Saudia Arabia, also. They have something we want.

    YeeterPan,

    Quick question bro but like what’s the ratio of dead Palestinian kids we’re shooting for that’s gonna make em square? Because you can say “we got the bad guy” all ya want, but if you had to bomb a refugee camp 3x to do so, for example, well that brings up some moral qualms for a lot of people.

    OtakuAltair, (edited )

    deleted_by_author

    •
    YeeterPan,

    Uh… Yes? Multiple multinational treaties are now in place that disallow indiscriminate carpet bombings

    OtakuAltair,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    T00l_shed,

    A lot of " strategic bombing " was just to target civilians to cause terror. From the wiki: “Strategic bombing often involved bombing areas inhabited by civilians, and some campaigns were deliberately designed to target civilian populations in order to terrorize them and disrupt their usual activities.”

    Saltblue,

    Look at this armchair warrior, giving his enlightened opinion about how Israel or any nation is justified in bombing civilians, old, young, women.

    Try having bombs dropped on your head for a conflict you don’t have a voice on. It’s always the privileged assholes who think like this.

    JackbyDev,

    Yes, wtf, bombing civilians is always wrong.

    OtakuAltair,

    There’s a massive difference between targeting civilians to kill, and having civilian casualties while bombing specific strategic targets.

    Or do you think it’d have been better to not bomb strategic targets, letting Nazi Germany gain the upper hand and kill millions more?

    mwguy,

    Actually Israel isn’t technically violating the Geneva Convention. When you co-locate civilian and military targets, the civilian infrastructure loses it’s protections under the Convention.

    Karyoplasma, (edited )

    The occupation of the West Bank is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, article 49. This has been established by the International Court of Justice in a ruling from 2004. Israel’s defense was indeed that the territory is disputed instead of occupied, but it’s the only country that holds this position. Literally the only country in the world.

    The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

    Sources: Fourth Geneva Convention, ruling of the International Court of Justice (relevant are paragraphs 90-101)

    mwguy,

    The West Bank isn’t at war. The Gaza Strip is. That’s the area Israel pulled out of and evicted (some at gunpoint) every Jewish settler; even those who had been there since before the 1948 partition plan. They’ve respected the 1967 borders there with no settlements as a way to prove that pulling back to those borders would lead to peace and not constant terrorism and warfare.

    Karyoplasma,

    Ok, how does that support your argument that Israel does not violate the Geneva Convention tho?

    Guydht,

    It doesn’t, he just talked about how the west bank is not relevant to the geneva convention, and his point still stands in Gaza. Civilian and terror infrastructure is intertwined in Gaza, and that’s his argument.

    Karyoplasma, (edited )

    The withdrawal of settlers and forces from Gaza was not initiated until 2005, which is almost 40 years of illegal occupation. In 2007, the occupation was officially lifted and replaced with a blockade. And they did not pull out their forces and settlers to “prove” that “pulling back to those borders would lead to peace”, it was to finally fulfill the duties they agreed on in the Egypt-Israel peace treaty from 1979. The Oslo Accords that resulted from that treaty only exist because Israel did not fulfill their promises after several decades, so there were talks again.

    So how about he doesn’t contort the narrative so hard that it makes my head spin?

    mwguy,

    Israeli left wing parties absolutely did pull out in the belief it would lead to peace. Their political coalition didn’t have the support to do the same thing in the West Bank. They believed that if peace reigned on the strip, and violence continued in the West Bank it would justify a similar settlement eviction in the WB.

    The current right wing coalition would have never approved the 2004 disengagement plan. And the violence that followed it is what brought them to power.

    Illuminostro,

    You left out the part where Israel has been murdering Palestinians and stealing their land for decades, and turned Gaza into an open air prison. That kind of thing pisses people off.

    That still doesn’t make any of this right.

    Cyclist,

    You missed the part about Israel fighting Arabs and Palestinians for their very existence since 1948. It’s not a simple situation. Whereas Ukraine is simply a megalomaniac trying to expand his power at all cost.

    Illuminostro,

    You missed the part where Arabs had been on that land for over a thousand years before the European Allies decided to sent their Jews back “home.”

    Also, fuck Putin.

    OtakuAltair,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    Illuminostro,

    Agreed.

    All I’m saying is no one is innocent here except the civilians being executed at an appalling rate.

    ILikeBoobies,

    Palestine isn’t a country so it’s not their land

    Also it was stolen from Israel a thousand years ago so they are just taking it back

    Focus on the murdering part it’s bad enough that you don’t need to make up reasons

    Thief_of_Crows,

    Israel brought the terror on themselves. They are literally committing genocide.

    Also, Russia is fighting to maintain it’s black sea port, which NATO interfered with. That territory has always been Russian, and only US propaganda claims otherwise. Want proof? Go look at the board games Diplomacy and Axis and Allies, based on WW1/2 respectively. Both show Crimea as Russia. Or just look at Wikipedia, for this and other easily verifiable facts.

    teichflamme,

    If you go back further you had the Kyiv Rus there and it was Ukrainian plus parts of Russia were too.

    Thief_of_Crows,

    Yeah, I mean there’s a reason the region became the USSR for a while, it’s all very interwoven histories. There were times Ukraine was part of Russia, there were times Ukraine wasnt Russia but Crimea was, etc. The important thing is that Russia is clearly entitled to the area that has always been Russian, in some form or another.

    teichflamme,

    The reason the region became the USSR was Russian imperialism and military power.

    important thing is that Russia is clearly entitled to the area that has always been Russian, in some form or another.

    That’s not at all it. If anything Ukraine has not only the better claim to Crimea but also to some of the western parts of Russia than Russia itself.

    Historically speaking.

    Thief_of_Crows,

    Well, yes, but nobody is arguing America needs to surrender Hawaii or Alaska (or all of the other 48 states, tbh), even though they were both acquired via imperialism, and more recently than Crimea was. The fact is that Russia, just like America with Alaska/Hawaii, is capable of enforcing it’s ownership claim of the region, and it’s really not that unreasonable a demand to be making that the rest of the world consent to their ownership of it. It’s just the price of peace. America is simply trying to stifle their trade potential by proclaiming that Ukraine, who is not remotely close to a threat to American power, is the legit owner of a highly powerful port.

    moroz,

    Kievan Rus was Ukrainian?

    teichflamme,

    The main part of it was on the part that is Ukrainian today, which is why the name is derived from Kyiv.

    It was a multi ethnic state though. Russians of course wouldn’t agree, but they are not exactly a reasonable voice on such things.

    T00l_shed,

    Board games as proof? Crimea was part of the USSR sure ,but it was transferred to Ukraine so it’s no longer part of Russia, nothing to do with Nato, Russia wants to expand and they should get fucked.

    Thief_of_Crows,

    Did Russia agree to the transfer to Ukraine? And regardless, that’s clearly not expansion, it’s reclaiming lost territory.

    T00l_shed,

    No because it was the USSR and they initiated the transfer, it absolutely is expansion since its not their territory. Reclaiming lost territory is such a terrible way to try and rationalize what Russia is doing. Unreal…

    Honytawk,

    Russia never owned those territories.

    That was the USSR, which does not exist anymore.

    Russia has no claim to Ukraine, no matter what their propaganda says.

    Otherwise Italy should own most of Europe and Africa, since the Roman empire did.

    And by your logic, Russia should be confined to the territories of Khanate of Kazan as conquered by Ivan the Terrible.

    Thief_of_Crows,

    Russia is the same country as the USSR, minus the parts that left. They are a global superpower, like it or not they get a say in what happens globally. And the idea that a critically important part of a superpower can just be convinced to leave it is insane. What did America do when a large portion of our country (one which also contained all of our access to our southern waters, btw) tried to secede? We went to war with them. Russia is doing the same. Why is it wrong when they do it?

    eee,

    Lemmy is just weirdly pro-Hamas and anti-Israel.

    Don’t get me wrong, I think what Israel is doing sucks, but what Hamas is doing is equally bad. This is really a both-sides situation.

    Karyoplasma,

    Israel is killing many, many more Palestinians than Hamas is killing Israelis and it has been this way for decades.

    Also, doing wrong when done “in retaliation” is still doing wrong.

    eee,

    Also, doing wrong when done “in retaliation” is still doing wrong.

    So… We agree that Israel killing civilians in response to Hamas’s attack is wrong, just as Hamas killing civilians in response to persecution by Israel is wrong?

    Karyoplasma, (edited )

    Yep.

    Weird how you misconstrue criticizing Israel’s genocide with support for Hamas tho. Very concerning.

    Flambo,

    This is really a both-sides situation.

    Hamas isn’t Palestine. Israeli gov isn’t Israel.

    When you make simple distinctions like this, things get less complicated.

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    The impulse in westerners who want to support the Palestinian people against genocide trying to separate them from Hamas comes off to me as deeply condescending and obtuse. The majority of Palestinians support Hamas. And they have every reason to. Not that most of them were alive and old enough to vote for it the last time the Zionists granted them the privilege, but the vote between the PLO and Hamas when it occurred was between a group of collaborators who negotiated away any hope of returning to their homes and a group that -actually fights back against the people who killed your entire extended family-. Of course they support Hamas. Who else do they have to put their hopes into? You? At your keyboard? What’s your suggestion to them?

    Guydht,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Guydht,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Guydht,

    In 2005 Gazans had complete control, without a siege over the region. The siege started in 2007. They had their own government and their own freaking autonomy over themselves. That’s just facts, whether they line up with your agenda or not.

    The siege started after Hamas, an actual terrorist organization that advocates for deadly jihad over all of Israel, gained power in a violent coup, murdering the existing fatah members.

    Not to mention that during the duration of said siege those 2 million had water, food and electricity provided by Israeli tax money, not that it makes the situation amazing for Palestinians. But no, that means that they have drinking water and food (at least when they don’t slaughter 1400 people from the hand that feeds them)

    Reply all you like I won’t discuss anything with someone so brainwashed that thinks anyone who doesn’t agree with him is a fucking Nazi.

    You’re truly a disgrace to humanity if you compare this to fascists. You’re either extremely ignorant, extremely brainwashed, or just have blind hate towards the west. No matter which of those you are, that’s scummy and oh how much I hope people with actual power in this world aren’t like you.

    dynamojoe,

    Pro-Palestinians <> pro-Hamas

    dynamojoe,

    “not equals”. It’s a matter of taste. Some people prefer != instead. But you get the point. Sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians does not equate to support for Hamas.

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    I’m sorry what is that symbol supposed to mean besides ‘back and forth forever’?

    BeardedGingerWonder,

    Not equal

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    I’ve never seen that before. Where is that convention used?

    Honytawk,

    This is a symbol for “not equal” in computer programming languages. It is used in some languages, such as BASIC and SQL

    notequalsign.com

    Lols,

    its true, they should both be getting the same, punitive treatment

    Aceticon, (edited )

    Well, given that at the same time as Russia dropped 100 bombs, once, Israel dropped 400+ (and in a much more heavilly populated area, so killing about 10s or maybe even 100 times more civilians), every night, it’s hardly surprising that at least the people who were against the Russian invasion of Ukraine as a question of principle (the strong attacking the weak, the murdering of innocent civilians for merelly having been born were they were born, the calous disregard for people’s lives and so on) are focused were a far more extreme case of it is happenning.

    That in Palestine, the US and some of the largest European nations, unlike in Ukraine, actually support the strong who are murdering innocent civilians in massive numbers, just makes those who are natural supporters of victims to be even more focused on Palestine since the “great” powers in that case have not sided with the main victims but instead are giving cover and even monetary and military support to the side commiting a genocide, making such people feel their support is even more needed in the face of such “coalition of the strong”.

    Meanwhile the crowd who are driven to take sides for reasons other than principle or morality are also being guided to focus on Palestine, the nationalists in nations which support one of the sides because their nation’s leader or favored politician is supporting that side, whilst the ones who mindlessly follow the baiting of the more propagandistic news and social media because the propaganda in most of those newspapers, TV channels and social networks is now entirelly focused on Palestine.

    In summary, the crowd driven by morals and principles are focused where the greatest underdogs are being victimized the most and, worse, that is supported by the powerful, and the rest are either looking at the same because that’s were their national or political leaders point them to or because pretty much the entirety of the propaganda in the most manipulated newsmedia or social media is about that.

    It’s almost paradoxical that Ukraine’s success at stopping Russia (thus avoiding the kind of mass civilian casualties there would be in something like a siege of Kiyv) thanks to the help of nations that are now supporting a side doing the invasion an mass killings, means that their plight is merelly a fraction of that of the Palestinians hence they eyes of the World are turned to the latter.

    saltedFish,

    Writing essays on lemmy 🤮

    Aceticon, (edited )

    Nobody forces you to read those.

    It’s absolutelly fine to stick to simple bite-sized ideas that simplify everything to black and white for those for whom complex views are too much to digest as is absolutelly fine for others to prepare full meals for those who can and want to feed their brains with more than just fizzy drinks and candy.

    However if scrolling down a little bit to go over that text causes you movement sickness as you illustrated, I do apologize and promise to give the appropriate level of consideration for people suffering from such a disability.

    saltedFish,

    OK nerd please tldr your essay

    Aceticon,

    LOL!

    joker125,

    What a totally unforeseeable situation.

    BeautifulMind,
    @BeautifulMind@lemmy.world avatar

    At this point, pouring on the bombs (shortly after gloating that the new speaker in congress suits Russia) seems likely to be as much about shifting morale (getting Ukraine to worry that its support from the west will dry up with Kremlin toadies in control of Washington’s purse strings) as it is about on-the-ground strategy or tactics.

    It’s not like new Israeli atrocities detracts significantly from the world’s ability to pay attention to the atrocities in Ukraine, but anything that gives Moscow something else to gesture at gives it something to whatabout over, and getting the rest of the world (including nato members and US politicians) to fight amongst themselves (over whether it’s better to back a genocidal ethnostate or the terrorists resisting it) is always a win when the alternative might be for them to unify against your invasion of Ukraine.

    Mrkawfee,

    Putin sees there’s no consequences for butchering thousands of civilians. Proceeds to do the same.

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    What makes you think this is his first time? Have you been paying attention at all? Are you somehow oblivious to the thousands of Ukrainian civilians who’ve already been killed by Putin? This selective outrage blows me away. Have you been asleep for the last year and a half? This is the madness of crowds.

    jarfil,

    The difference between Putin and Israel is… that Putin “rescued”, relocated, and gave a bunch of children to surrogate families, before bombing their parents.

    I mean… that’s “technically” less inhumane, or something?

    Mrkawfee,

    Putin has killed fewer civilians in Ukraine in 2.5 years than Netanyahu has in Gaza in 30 days. Israel has shown that there are no costs for him to escalate dramatically as it’s clear the world won’t do anything.

    antidote101,

    Israel dropped 6000 bombs in one week, on an area much smaller… More children have died in the first 25 days of the current Israeli conflict than in a year of the war on Ukraine.

    Drusas,

    That's horrible, but it doesn't mean we should ignore Ukraine.

    cley_faye,

    I did not know this was a competition where only one could “win”.

    tias,

    It’s more like a competition where the bystanders lose

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