they do. right now they’re upset because prison or bullet violates their freedom to choose how they punish other people for using freedom incorrectly. the moderates are outside waving gadsden flags and chanting “prison or bullet OR FIRE OR FLAYING OR DROWNING”. Because freedom.
So he’s basically just a liberal, right? Similar expansions of the police and increasing militarization happened under thatcher and reagan. He might call himself an “ancap”, but he’s probably just gonna be the same as them, in practice, since we live in a globalized economic system. No call from me on whether or not he’s going to be worse or not as bad, but he just seems like he’s basically the same as them ideologically.
I read the wiki page on just Liberalism, thinking two can play at that game. And I found that, well damn, by Wikipedia, you’re right. So why are liberals conflated with communists who think property should be commonly owned?
In the US, “liberal” and “conservative” come from different interpretations of the constitution. A “liberal” is somebody who interprets it liberally, that is, that the people who wrote it couldn’t account for every possibility, so interpretations of it should take into account the “spirit” of the work and try to interpret what they wanted when they wrote it. A “conservative” interprets it conservatively, that is, that they only concern themselves with the “letter” of what it says, and that the law is limited to EXACTLY what the document says based on the language at the time it was written.
Without taking obvious sides on this argument in this post, this is part of where the argument over the 2nd amendment comes from - The exact wording of the amendment isn’t up for debate - it’s written down right over there and anybody can read it. But what the two sides differ on is:
What that wording actually means.
Whether or not that wording is still relevant.
Whether or not that section should be repealed by amendment.
The literal exact wording is: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
But what does that actually mean?
To a conservative, it is interpreted using the original meanings of the words with no room for error. The words are sacrosanct and not up for revision or reinterpretation. “well regulated” in 1700s vocabulary means “well equipped and maintained”, and a militia was a group of citizens that organized themselves outside of military control. “to keep” means to own “and bear” means to have something in their possession at any time in any situation. So taken together, translated to modern language using the original meanings of the words, it means “A country’s security and freedom depend upon citizens coming together with proper equipment, maintenance, and training, so people shall always have the right to own and carry weapons.”
But to a liberal, there’s room for interpretation and modification. In modern parlance, “well regulated” means “subject to rules and regulations”. A “militia” is a volunteer military organization. Taken together, they mean “A military organization with stringent rules.” So if the sentence starts with “A well regulated militia…”, then does the sentence only apply to those in the military? Combined with the next clause, it goes “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of the free state…”. At the time of the writing, militias were the primary system of civilian security. But now we have military and civilian police for security, so do we still need civilian firearm ownership / public carry? If not, then is this clause even necessary anymore? Should an amendment eliminate it?
Again, I’m not taking a side in this post. That’s not my goal here. Of course I have my own opinion, but to maintain neutrality, I’m not going to share it on this thread. I’m just trying to illustrate how the terms “conservative” and “liberal” grew out of different interpretations and thoughts regarding the US constitution.
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Honestly, I say bring it. I’m just waiting for the order to set Condition 1SQ. I’ll do it, too. Maybe after we do a hard reset, we can do it differently, or let another species take over.
Russia has been assassinating several a year for years, the Israelis and Saudis both have been killing journalists, and India is currently in trouble with NA for assasinating a Canadian and plotting assassination of an American.
It was 4 or 5 assassinations planned in the US by India. They successfully assassinated a Sikh separatist in Canada, and they had others planned as well.
This article is straight up missinformation. The person who did that quote, ON TWITTER is not affiliated to the Political Party of the Government, they are in fact Opposition
The Guardian showing being a shit source
Edit: Also want to note, multiple claims on the Article not related to the headline are also fake, the Peso was not devalued by Javier Milei, it was already that bad before he became President, what he did was make the Government stop lying about it
It’s impressive there’s even a fight to be had here, I expected Lemmy to be way more critical than Reddit but people seem to boast being lied to, meanwhile in Reddit this article has already been taken down for missinformation, thanks to the dozens of Argies providing proof of it being the case, saying the same things I am
I mean this place is a leftism cesspool, even more than Reddit. I’ll post miles new measures for the first week in Spanish on the arg Lemmy if you want
What’s the wrong information in the article? Leftist legislator and former presidential candidate Myriam Bregman said on X (formerly Twitter): “What Bullrich announced is absolutely unconstitutional … The right to protest is the first of all rights.”? José Luis Espert, a legislator with Milei’s party, Liberty Advances, replied with a three-word phrase: “Prison or bullet.”? The article I read states reducing the peso by 50% to be apart of the newly elected presidents administration to address the economy. His economy minister, Luis Caputo, moved to weaken the official exchange rate to 800 pesos a dollar – it had been 366.5 – in a televised address after the local markets closed on Tuesday. He said the central bank would target a monthly devaluation of 2%.“The objective is simply to avoid catastrophe and get the economy back on track,” Caputo said, in a recorded speech. “There is no more money.” The president of Argentina posted , “Today inflation is travelling at a daily rate of 1%, that means it is travelling at a yearly rate of 3,678%,” Milei said on his Instagram feed on Friday.
Jose Luis Espert is not in Milei’s Party, as mentioned he is opposition, the claim of “Prison or Bullet” shall not be attributed to his Government. And the “Devaluation” of the PESO is rather complex to explain but basically the only effect is big companies changing their prices accordingly.
Local Prices were already based on the ACTUAL DOLLAR PRICE of the Alternative Market (Not the official) known as “Dolar Blue” the previous official amount was a lie from the previous government that allowed them to steal from Argentina’s workers if they moved their dollars into the country (legally that is) and of course no Argentine had access to dollars at that price as the previous government NEVER allowed normal folk to buy it, only politicians, and in case you were wondering YES it was THAT BROAD DAYLIGHT ROBBERY
The rest of the claims are true but given how the most alarming claims were lies I advice you to please enforce critical thinking and decide wether the source is biased or not
When nobody uses the Official exchange rate for several reasons, you have to look at the exchange rate that people do use. On that matter, no the Peso was not devaluated, the official exchange just stopped being a lie, if you’d like to inform yourself about this please look at “Dolar Blue”
On that note, the only Prices that changed are international companies’ prices because they do go by it. Local Prices and other countries exchanges did not change it’s valuation even a cent.
No. They are not. Espert is currently aligned with JxC (Juntos por el Cambio). And surprise to none, they are running the country basically along with LLA (La Libertad Avanza). And even if that weren’t the case, Espert literally threatened leftist parliamentaries. The fucker is even one of the signataries of The Madrid Charter, for God’s sake.
The Peso was devalued with Milei, and also before. And will keep being devaluated because this govt does not care about the people. They care about the profit as the govt of Fernandez and Macri did.
The right wing is never the answer. Sadly, those who’ll pay the price for being so ignorant about it will be the citizens.
Abd replying to something you said, maybe you have no knowledge about fascism, but Milei is clearly a fascist.
You just gave me the right on everything about Espert… Including that he’s just a legislator and LLA having an Alliance with JxC to be allowed to govern… So thanks I guess
However, no the Peso was not devaluated, the Official exchange just moved towards the real exchange since for some reason they dont want to steal more from the Workers and Tourists that fall for the trap of the Official Exchange… HMMMM
And yeah let’s just be absolutists and say the right is never the answer, that’s obviously flawless and correct and doesnt make you look any biased at all…
And would like to know the quote you are apparently replying to? Because so far Milei has advocated to follow the constitution, has complied with his campaign promises so far and has been democratically elected unlike his opponent in the Elections who has De-Facto President on his Minister of Economy facade, Surely those arent fascists, correct?
Milei is not making “the caste” pay. Milei is making workers pay. And Massa was not the president. He was the Superminister of Economy. And in Argentina, that is a big deal. But I’m not aware of him defying the Constitution in his tenure. Now, forgive me for believing the right, who aims to mantain it’s privileges every time they feel they are slightly threatened, can’t be trusted.
Except that… he’s already making the Caste pay?.. 2 out of his 3 Decrees so far have already cut A LOT of Political Priviledges and Money making schemes planted by the Peronists, and more are to come out of his words. Sure the workers are paying too i’ll give you that.
And yes, Massa was the President, of course not in an official way because that would be unconstitutional and Political Suicide, on the Most Peronist fashion it was all done under the rug. As soon as Massa assumed his charge the President Alberto Fernandez LITERALLY dissapeared from Public View AND Executively did NOTHING the rest of his mandate. Massa took his place both in Public Acts and on actually ordering the Country. There’s no way to make this shit up given how blatant it was
I don’t think you’re getting my point. The caste is composed of corrupt politicians, corporatioms that lobby the state, unnecesary assistants, etc. Congresspersons are not seeing their salarys reduced, nor are they having a more strict set of rules when it comes to assisting to sessions. Corporations are not paying anything. They are not being affected. Aristocracie has the same tax regime, there is no tax on bigger fortunes that enables some load of the measures to be lifted from the workers, and they’re getting the chance to buy state companys that are direct competition. There is also the elimination of price regulations and observation policy, so literally they can and will charge as much as they want (and yes, you could say that if you can’t afford it, don’t pay for it, but what about the food!?) On democracy and freedoms, freedoms are being reduced (Bulrich’s anti-picket protocol failed tremendously given that the streets were indeed cut off, althought not cut off by the manifestants). Right wing extremist are threatening leftist politicians, as you have seen with Espert. United Left Front parliamentary Natalia Morales was anonymously threatened with “not seeing sunlight ever again”.
Listen, I get the critics of peronism are valid. And I wholeheartedly agree that they have to be accountable of the wrongs they did and keep doing. What I do not and can not condone is the " on laws ground everything, out of them nothing" rethoric and then unconstitutionalism. If Peronism politicians do it is wrong. If leftist politicians do it is wrong. You can not fuck up the CN. If right wingers do it is also wrong. You can not say “well, peronist do it”. Because that is not the way it works when you said all the heavy things you said when in campaign.
And then we could go and analyze why most of what Milei said on campaign was wrong. We cpuld start iith his bashing of aocialism and communism when, he may not know what the hell those are, because he does not appear to know how they work or the definitions, or he knows but finds amusing to spew lies. We could go on and prove markets are not good at autoregulation, we could prove that economic growth does not equal life quality, climate change is obviously real and denying it should be penalized in my opinion because scientific consensus on the matter is hella strong, etc.
We can argue for hours about all of this things. And again, the caste should pay. But they’re not. Because those who made themselves rich on the workers labor, sweat and tears are not having any privileges being taken away. They are just getting more chances at exploiting.
“The state is not going to pay for the use of the security forces; organizations that have legal status will have to pay or individuals will have to bear the cost,” Bullrich said.
Can they pay in Pesos? 'cause they can probably do that instead of burning it in their hearth.
Is funny to claim people are “backwards idiots” when it’s literally the first time in history this political spectrum (anarcho-capitalist) has been elected. What’s fresher than a first time ever?
He hasnt done such thing? During Presidential Debates he literally brought them up…
And someone having friends that think alike? What a crazy concept! Just like Peronism that reivindicated dictators around the world and has ties with Maduro’s Venezuela and China, even selling part of the country to them
And I don’t even know what the actual fuck is peronism. Some things look like right wing, some look like left wing, some are cult of personality, some are near anarchist, … Maybe because I haven’t understood it.
I agree, “you too” is not an excuse, but that wasn’t what I was trying to imply. For clarification it’s a matter of pick your poison because it doesn’t matter the person nor the space they belong to, bad apples are gonna be there so wether you prefer those bad apples to come from china or united states is really the only choice you can make.
And there is a saying in Argentina that if Peronism doesnt make sense to you, it means you understood it perfectly. The deal here is that it’s been the power that’s dominated the country since it’s inception… and look how that’s going
Then the problem comes from having to chose between Turd Sandwich and Giant Douche and the solution would be to have someone that knows a little about ruling a country.
I mean for what we were discussing, there really is no solution?
And if you actually just radically changed topic… there’s really not a problem? There’s two pathways that if theoretically executed have pros and cons (if the candidates actually comply to their promises) and choosing is at best a conflict
In that case, could you please number the “Actions” they’ve done that deem them fascist? It’s been 7 days of government, im sure you’ll have no issue narrowing them down in such a timeframe. I would like details if you are able to provide, thanks!
Thanks for the summary, unfortunately I must correct some inaccuracies on the provided bullet points
Number 1: The threat of Jail is only for those protesters who incur on Blocking Public roads and or depriving other citizens of their right to freely transit, which has always been against the law, which makes them Criminals. The threat of Jail is only for criminals. And the claim of shooting protesters is from someone NOT in the government, in fact they are opposition so it’s not attributable to the government in any way.
Hope this helps to make a clearer vision of what they have/are actually doing, would you please be so kind to update the list so we can see how many fascist things they are doing with that clarified?
Not out in the woods necessarily, but it certainly wouldnt make a horrible protest place either.
They just have to do it like how Argentines protested against The Minister of Economy ot the Previous Government (Milei’s opponent in the presidential elections) where they manifested, called and paid by no one (unlike these “Piqueteros” the article talks about), on a Sunday and blocked no streets or pathways. Simple as that!
I literally just said a peaceful manifestation without violation of the other’s right is possible and has been done not even too far back.
And also, these “Piquetes” aren’t peaceful at all. It is violent to stop workers from going to work, threatening their income necessary to sustain their life, it’s a crime under the hood of enforcing a right and that’s why they should be repressed. Those who don’t incur on the people’s freedom to go to work and live peacefully shouldn’t be of course.
It was a genuine question, Im at a Loss of what are you trying to say or imply
I’ll stand by my claim that a peaceful protest that doesnt violate anyone else’s rights is not only possible, but should be the norm where these “Social” Organizations have only done the contrary in Argentina thus far.
Im asking for a clarification or otherwise rewording of the meaning you tried to give with a dubious quote from a Past Era because It’s not clear how it interjects with the topic at all
If you’re not willing to provide that, I guess this convo is over
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Ah yes, fascists. Not like those werent in power until 2 weeks ago and the opposing candidate to Milei wasnt using government power to investigate, accuse and imprison (if not kill) those who made campaign against him
Not that has anything to do with Milei, but when you consider that… and the fact that Milei has done nothing but comply to his campaign promises you gotta wonder whos the real fascist… or even the definition
“The state is not going to pay for the use of the security forces; organizations that have legal status will have to pay or individuals will have to bear the cost”
The state sending invoices to accused protesters is a about the least ancap thing I’ve ever seen. Such a fresh take.
German police as well as courts of account have actually been lobbying to make football clubs pay for the operations they cause for quite some while. Would be tied to events with a commercial orientation attracting crowds > 5000 people or something along those lines.
Considering that the security forces will only incur when protesters take away the fundamental right of transiting the streets… which is a crime, an Invoice instead of prison is rather light
Now is it anarcho capitalist? Well people paying for their actions and its consequences being a law sounds rather anarcho-capitalist to me
I didn’t say anything about any regieme. I was speaking plain and simple Ancap ideology which is so obviously broken (as I demonstrated) that it’s funny. It’s a collection of soundbites, sounding good to neoliberal edgelords, masquerading as principles, which break apart as soon as you connect them up because they contradict each other. As, to wit, the “everyone is bound to non-aggression” and “there’s no such thing as a social contract” thing. I don’t even have to bring up that private property is violence in itself.
I don’t know who’s interpretation of Anarcho-Capitalism you are following, but since ther has never been an Anarcho Capilist government in the world (which sounds ironical) it’s all just ideas and interpretations, of which seem you are grabbing the worst of the pile.
Rothbard’s definition includes in the fundamentals of the Contractual Society being voluntarily approached and free of violence or harm, which is to say that if you do not respect the inalienable rights of the others, you are violating the Contract for being in that society, and you are rightfully gonna be aprehended. There is no contradiction
Also, to what you said about “demonstrated” something, mind linking to what you have? There’s nothing around here like that
So I must have the opportunity to live outside it. How does Ancap theory limit land ownership, and the defence of that land by force? If you don’t then nothing about Ancappery is voluntary.
free of violence or harm,
Then there must not be capital accumulation: For resources are power and accumulation of power corrupts even the most virtuous mind.
which is to say that if you do not respect the inalienable rights of the others, you are violating the Contract for being in that society, and you are rightfully gonna be aprehended.
So if you, or ancaps collectively, own all the land which prevents me from exercising my inalienable right to not be part of any of their fiefdoms then they are violating that contract, and will be rightly apprehended by their goons.
I think the social contract thing came into the general anarchist vs. ancap discussion because social contract theory leads to a lot of things Ancaps don’t want, such as universal welfare, so people at least on the internet started dismissing it entirely. But it just so happens that you made your own contradiction so I didn’t need to recourse to that, you built a contradiction into your description of ancap fundamentals: Congratulations, you back a political suicide cult.
Half the country voted for the Minister of Economy that ran the economy to the ground, used 2 Points of the Country’s GDP for his Political campaign and was also Defacto President the past 2 Years (not democratically elected) using the Ideology that has governed Argentina for 20 Years now
I think you just cracked the code who the “Backwards idiots” you so speak of might be
There’s been a gazillion times people from that particular political spectrum, that is, neo-feudalists, have been in power.
No actual anarchist ever has ever considered ancaps to be anything else than that, ancaps plain and simply aren’t anarchist. You cannot be an anarchist while supporting systems of rule such as, to wit, capitalism.
Ancaps are called Ancaps by Anarchists for that reason, yes, not because “anarcho-” wouldn’t otherwise be indicative of actual anarchism. Anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-primitivism, the list is endless. Luckily we got spared Anarcho-withoutadjectivesism.
Either they’re trying to appropriate our good reputation, or they’re just clueless idiots. Or both. Very likely both.
Neofeudalism. Ancaps are people who want their own little fiefdoms just that instead of justifying their rule by the grace of god, they justify it by the “grace” of the unregulated market. Which they, as neolibs generally do, like to equivocate with the free market.
All I can say is that Wikipedia is not a reliable source but I understand investigating profoundly every minor topic is a nuisance, but if you don’t, it all basically boils down to “trust me bro” which is what my answer is about to be:
Jose Luis Espert is a Libertarian Legislator sure, but not on Milei’s Party, he and her companion are their own block “Avanza Libertad” while Milei’s block is “La Libertad Avanza” which Understandably might cause confusion, but the fact is that they arent the same. Meanwhile Espert’s block is affiliated with “The Pro” or “Juntos por el Cambio” who Milei’s government has made a coallition with to be enabled to govern/pass laws in the Senate. Basically an alliance
Espert is NOWHERE in that picture however. The english article might just be outdated, tho as Milei and Espert used to be friends but they went separate ways when Espert Joined the Pro like 7 months ago. Would recommend the spanish article which is somewhat more accurate
In case you really are intersted, I would suggest r/Argentina on Reddit or r/Republica_Argentina again on Reddit
To clarify the former is more right-oriented (pro current gov, against past) and the latter is Left-oriented (pro past gov, against current)
Official new sources straight from Argentina are hard to trust, as they used to be Paid by the government and served as propagandists for it until like a week ago since Milei made a decree to halt said Payments for at least a Year (You can search about this with the term “Pauta oficial Argentina”)
They’re not hard to trust they are impossible to trust. They are fantasy, fiction publications. That’s to be expected when there’s no such thing as anti corruption and half the country is illiterate.
I don’t know how an Anti-Corruption office would go with Media Outlets spewing misinformation, free speech is fundamental after all. If they say something that’s wrong they should be sued by the affected, people should loose interest in their channel and it would die off because there’s no profit when nobody watches or trusts them.
On another hand, there are some trustable ones but of course who those are varies from person to person, for now let’s just wait until the ones that cant survive without the government’s money die off and we’ll put up to public scrutiny the rest
And yet the Argentinian middle class decides it is good to listen to corporate group news mostly. Here we have few state sponsored media channels. And if they were many, rest assured they have neither the power nor the success of Clarín and La Nación, the two biggest players in the media bussiness in the country. To be completely fair, most news media in Argentina (at least, 80% of which by far those two i mentioned previously are made of) is basically right leaning. In some cases, too much to look the other way. But Argentinians have success in defeating logic and facts with fictitious campaign slogans, complete disdain for history and ridicule understandings of economics. That is why the right wing is so strong here.
This new president we got surely is gonna be respecting of freedom /s
Yes, it’s how it works. But that doesn’t mean everyone in a country deserves what’s going to happen to them if a slim majority of them makes the ‘wrong’ choice in an election.
Also note that the political class didn’t help themselves by having the finance minister be the guy that ran against him. Voting for the same guy that was in charge during the hyperinflation period was probably not a very attractive prospect for many.
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