The fact that there is no one of consequence left in the Republican Party willing or able to put a stop to this and hold the line against imposing utterly deranged PragerU propaganda on the country really captures how much extremist forces are in charge of the GOP. It’s bizarre and terrifying.
@tzimmer_history It seems like PrageraU gets more and more absurd. People associated with the political right have mostly abandoned any pretense of being for respecting liberty and leaving people alone.
Re-running a poll I saw on Mastodon a while ago, before various migrations. Just collecting numbers, not seeking advice or anything. Please boost for reach.
Fifty years ago, if the right decisions had been made, today might look very different. We likely would not be talking about a "climate crisis" or a "climate emergency."
But the right decisions were not made. Instead, our capitalist rulers pushed ahead with their growth-at-any-cost mantra. And now we face certain disaster.
There are still choices to made, a struggle to be waged, in hopes of making the collapse of society slightly less costly for some people in some places. We must engage in that fight.
But suffering is inevitable, great suffering, both for humans and for the natural environment that our industries and our consumerism are in the process of destroying.
Here is an article by Indi Samarajiva that traces our history of bad decisions and that describes "What ‘Winning’ Against Climate Change Actually Looks Like." As he warns, you won't like it.
@Vincarsi
To me capitalism is private ownership of the means of production.
I think I might have started the discussion b/c I loath "we need to fight climate change and [any other issue]." I think climate change is so important, it should be addressed alone. Anti-capitalists think capitalism is a cause of climate change, so they must be addressed together. I think the solution will come through capitalism.
It's unfortunate b/c meanwhile climate change gets worse. @Qbitzerre
@Vincarsi
Humans really need a justice system that prohibits trashing other people's stuff. We don't have any system to charge people for the cost of the mess they make, so we make a mess. I try to reduce activities that contribute to climate change, but I live and affluent life and I pollute. There's no group of bad guys responsible. We the people need to recognize the damage and set up systems to require people to clean up the mess they make. @Qbitzerre
@Qbitzerre
-People don't need to be in a race unless they want to.
I agree 100%.
-Market price is not a measure of something's value or the happiness gives someone.
I agree 100%.
-Growth in production isn't intrinsically good.
I don't know. I think I disagree on fundamental values with the anti-capitalists on this point.
-Capitalist accounting systems are flawed.
Accounting systems are flawed; not because they're capitalist. Communists could fail to account for the environment too. @Vincarsi
@Qbitzerre
I think people are free to trash their own stuff. But when you release carbon into the air, it leaves your property and causes proven problems for others. It's like using a fertilizer that runs into a lake that connects to other people's property.
I think real capitalists should abhor activities that damage other people's stuff, even if the other people are in Fiji or The Netherlands. @Vincarsi
@passenger
Value is created when you find a way to increase revenue. Pure competition, as you described, occurs when producing commodized, non-differentiated goods and services. Value is created when you invent a way to provide something to customers who previously couldn't get it. People often talk about the virtues of competition, but value comes from inventing something that avoids pure competition. @HeavenlyPossum@Qbitzerre@Vincarsi
@passenger
I used to think it was a cliche, but it's true that the ratio of number of possible things you could do to time in a lifespan is too high to spend time on undesirable projects. @HeavenlyPossum@Qbitzerre@Vincarsi
@HeavenlyPossum
I didn't follow the part about gaining permission, but I'll think about it. In basic terms, it seems like the definition of trade is both parties have to give permission to relinquish what they have for something the other has. @Qbitzerre@Vincarsi
@HeavenlyPossum
In such a scenario with a million maker participants, agricultural work wouldn't be profitable as you rightly say. But with only 10 parties owning the land and no ability to move around, it would be like the ancient world where there was no concept of rights. Even if people did respect rights, it would hard for there not to be collusion where the ten owners develop an informal agreement fixing the price of rent.
@HeavenlyPossum
Are you saying things that produce other things are inherently stolen, or that they could be invented and owned legitimately but often are not? @Vincarsi@Qbitzerre
@Vincarsi
Wow. Did Canada do that? I have an image of Canada as being respectful. Like the rest of the Americas, though, the land is stolen. We can't do anything but the past, but we definitely should stop in the present! @HeavenlyPossum@Qbitzerre
@HeavenlyPossum
I think you're saying since people stole in the past to varying degrees (a lot of history has out-and-out slavery, so there's no doubt you're right about that), we throw up our hands and won't respect any property. @Vincarsi@Qbitzerre
@Vincarsi
History is keenly aware of the atrocities following the European "discovery" of the America. What I'm not aware of is that there are people today wanting to live an indigenous life on indigenous land, but the authorities stop them. That's an example of property NOT being respected; it's not an example of respecting property. It's the opposite. @HeavenlyPossum@Qbitzerre
@Vincarsi
The idea that any human should be free to travel, own property, be left alone, regardless of their physical attributes, gender, etc is recent.
People not respecting one another's rights is the historical norm.
A better world is possible. @HeavenlyPossum@Qbitzerre
@HeavenlyPossum
I believe this is incorrect. I believe there is less war, less crime, less domestic violence, more embracing of diversity, and less poverty than ever before. I think since the industrial revolution, it's been mostly upward, esp. if you discounting WWII or focus on the post-WWII Long Peace. @Qbitzerre@Vincarsi
@HeavenlyPossum
I don't get why respecting the original owners claim on property means rejecting property.
Put another way, if we don't accept a right to own means of production, how can means of production be stolen. @Qbitzerre@Vincarsi
@Vincarsi
I thought war had decreased. I wonder if it's because a few hundred years ago people went from identifying with city-states to nation-states. Sharing a common narrative with a larger group let to more prosperity but unfortunately larger wars.
I think the notion of the nation state will disappear in about a century b/c geographic barriers don't stop people and goods from moving across them anymore.
@Vincarsi
My ideal scenario is humankind becomes one big nation-state with individual liberty as its shared narrative.
Ideally it will not be a nation in the traditional sense because nation is based on natus, where you were born.
That's not a prediction but an outcome I support. @HeavenlyPossum@Qbitzerre
