So one guy dead, no guarantee he was even a fighter. 24 kids injured. Some other adults, also no idea if they were fighters. How tf is that reasonable collateral for a sniper? This was clearly intentional.
That is literally the point of snipers, man-- high precision, calculated strikes at long range. Doing the math of how far a bullet will drop between your location and the target, calculating how long it will take the bullet to reach your target after you pull the trigger, judging if there is possible collateral damage, and waiting to make your shot until several variables align is all part of the job because sniping is literally math. I’m sure you know all that, though, because here you are saying that you know, in general, how sniper rifles work.
This comment makes no sense at all, dude. How in this wide world do you reckon an Israeli sniper would injure a child in a distant Gazan hospital, if not by shooting?
And all of those things can only happen after an IDF sniper fires their rifle. You’re trying to say that these were accidents, but snipers don’t accidentally aim down the scope then oopsydaisy their finger onto the trigger.
They didn’t say the children were shot. They said they were wounded.
24 times? With a sniper rifle? Come on dude. Spare yourself some dignity and think for a second before you say something that makes zero sense.
Sniper rifles will shoot through windows, interior walls, equipment, human bodies, etc
OK. Again. 24 times??? Dude. It’s a SNIPER. You know, the one where they say “I have a clear shot, I’m taking it”. You think they’re shooting through walls that many times that (if we assume a crazy high rate of 25% hit children unintentionally because of course they weren’t aiming at kids!), that’s still 24 * 4 = 96 shots at a hospital? Why not use an assault rifle at that point? With a sniper rifle, you watch, you wait, and you make sure you have a shot before taking it. If you miss, you regroup. There’s no mention of a high value target, no mention of Hamas activity inside. If they had that intel, it would be on the news for sure.
Again, as usual, the people to be mad at here are the literal terrorists committing literal war crimes by turning hospitals into battlegrounds
Sure, Hamas is a rebel force to Israel but the sheer number of collateral damage to kill even a single Hamas soldier is completely out of this world. Even in this scenario, 1 person killed, 24 wounded by sniper fire, and they didn’t even confirm who the target was or if they got him.
Where did I imply I am happy about anything going on in this entire situation?
I am not arguing out of team loyalty. I’m correcting people saying incorrect things.
The IDF are not comic book villains. They’re an army fighting battles in a very populated city. What is happening is exactly what everyone said would happen.
It is not some weird child sniping event. It’s a fucking war zone and this is a tragedy. A tragedy that could have been prevented if terrorists weren’t fighting from within a hospital.
Do I think this could be handled better? Hell yes. Why the fuck are there still people in said hospital? Why was the first move upon approaching not to fortify somewhere nearby and invite all those people to come be protected?
You can be an asshole commanding troops to advance without protecting civilians without being a comic book villain.
With how intense this situation has become among people, I am of the belief that taking a bad thing and using language that magnifies it as much as possible is a bad idea. I’m arguing against doing that, and instead discussing reality.
They have been harassing Jerusalem and other West Bank Palestinians alot lately, and have not let up since Ramadan (nearly 9 months ago). You can literally get an IDF tour guide to go harass Palestinians at the Temple Mount. They even bring their kids.
They have been targeting hospitals for decades.
They are contaminating West Bank water.
They turn off West Bank water whenever they feel like it.
Gaza isn’t an independent entity. Anyone who tries to trade with them gets on America’s bad list.
They should have excepted by now that Gaza is not part of Israel. Funny enough, it was never part of the biblical Israel or Judah.
Most importantly. Gaza cannot have allies. Gaza has no options. It was all calculated. Israel has even funded Hamas before. Yes, it’s all literally comic book villainry.
The Jews are both so brutal and strong that they purposely aim at children in hospitals and so pathetically weak that none of those children died.
That’s exactly right. Shoot to maim, cripple the hospital infrastructure to prevent aid, anaesthetics, water etc. To be provided so that they suffer the most gruesome pain as doctors struggle to treat them.
You’re really nailing the whole Goebbels angle here. We’re talking about Jews here. Those are your words, not mine.
Thats correct , the IDF are the terrorists in this case. Reminding us what the literal and internationally recognised and ratified definition of terrorism and war crimes are . Nothing justifies this barbarity. They are the invaders, they could choose to walk away from the hospitals and the schools and the families and the innocent victims they are now choosing to murder, “wounded” as you claim isn’t a big deal, mentally torture, abuse and eventually further radicalise against them. Perhaps thats the intention , because the goal sure as hell isn’t peace. This is anti civilization and the world is watching. No one wins from this pornographic inhuman behaviour.
Those children really had it coming for being at a hospital. Thankfully the IOF never lies and is always the good guys when they murder children. It’s just their culture to see Hamas everywhere like a scary boogeyman that justifies all war crimes.
On 12 September 2005, the final day of the Israeli withdrawal, international politicians such as France's Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy and Jordan's Deputy Prime Minister Marwan Muasher warned of Gaza being turned into an open-air prison.[24][25] Four days later, Mahmoud Abbas stated to the UN General Assembly: "It is incumbent upon Israel to turn this unilateral withdrawal into a positive step in a real way. We must quickly resolve all outstanding major issues, including the Rafah border crossing with Egypt, the airport and the seaport, as well as the establishment of a direct link between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Without this, Gaza will remain a huge prison."[26]
Following the disengagement, human rights groups alleged that Israel frequently blockaded Gaza in order to apply pressure on the population "in response to political developments or attacks by armed groups in Gaza on Israeli civilians or soldiers".[27] The special envoy of the Quartet James Wolfensohn noted that "Gaza had been effectively sealed off from the outside world since the Israeli disengagement [August–September 2005], and the humanitarian and economic consequences for the Palestinian population were profound. There were already food shortages. Palestinian workers and traders to Israel were unable to cross the border".[28]
On 15 January 2006, the Karni crossing – the sole point for exports of goods from Gaza – was closed completely for all kinds of exports.[29][30] The greenhouse project suffered a huge blow, as the harvest of high-value crops, meant to be exported for Europe via Israel, was essentially lost (with a small part of the harvest donated to local institutions).[30][31][32] Moreover, closing of Karni cut off the so-far resilient textile and furniture industries in Gaza from their source of income.[33] Starting February 2006, the Karni crossing was sporadically open for exports, but the amount of goods allowed to be exported was minuscule compared to the amount of goods imported[34] (which, in turn, barely supported Gaza's needs).[35][34] Between 1 January and 11 May, more than 12,700 tonnes of produce were harvested in Gaza's greenhouses, almost all of it destined for export; out of it, only 1,600 tonnes (less than 13%) were actually exported.
-Wikipedia. For context, Hamas won the elections on 25 January 2006.
In war between nations, all punishment is collective punishment. That's how war works. Your point of view might seem more compelling if they were not currently a belligerent territory under a hostile government actively launching bloody attacks against Israel. Blockades, fortifications, restricting movement, etc., are intended to deny the enemy resources that they would otherwise use to kill Israelis.
If Gaza sues for peace then that changes things. While they remain at war, all of these actions are totally reasonable. This is about safety, not punishing civilians.
Like I said before, this is due to the blockade. The blockade started before Hamas was in control of the strip, and wasn't strengthened in response to a particular attack against Israel (those started in earnest in 2007 after the blockade evolved into the form we know today). They're at war because peace isn't working. It didn't work in 1995, it didn't work in 2008 and it didn't work in 2014 (when Netenyahu actively opposed it, mind you).
How dare they contain the belligerent monoethnic nation that's actively trying to genocide them. What jerks, must be racism, or apartheid, or some other shocking term you want to call their self defense.
The Arabs that stayed in Israel through the nakba seem to be doing pretty well, gee, maybe this situation isn't about race after all, but rather it's about safety like they have always claimed it is.
I'll just mention that literally hundreds of thousands of people were expelled from Palestine. You should read more about the Nakba before saying stuff like that.
How dare they contain the belligerent monoethnic nation that’s actively trying to genocide them.
They just want to return to their homes they were violently expelled from. Yes, it would be within their rights to use violence to expel the literal theives from their homes.
What jerks, must be racism, or apartheid, or some other shocking term you want to call their self defense.
These terms are true. It is a shocking situation, especially Gaza. Israel bombed their airport, won’t let them go too far off the coast, walled them off, control everything about what goes into Gaza (hell, they couldn’t get pasta at one point), 97% of the water they get isn’t potable. The food they do receive is calorie tracked and once described by Israel as “putting the Palestinians on a diet”. They can’t get concrete to rebuild shit Israel blows up regularly. That shit is fucking bleak.
but rather it’s about safety like they have always claimed it is.
It is, the oppressor is trying to keep the land they stole from the oppressed. It also hasnt stopped, and it’s obvious that it’s a continuous project. The ones who are there now know they’re on borrowed time and many will resist.
Thanks for the link, I learned some things. There are a lot of legitimate criticisms, and some that I don't think hold water.
Israel has been a theocracy ever since they declared themselves to be the homeland of the Jews. As there are many lineages of Jews, and religious converts of any background qualify for Israeli citizenship one must assume they are referring to the religion and not the ethnicity when they made this declaration. A better analog than the US declaring itself the home of the white people, would be if Vatican City declared itself to be home of the Catholics, (and had a much bigger population, some of whom weren't.) Still not great but different in some very relevant ways. This matters because the video then goes on to build a case from this faulty premise that Israel is an apartheid state because it employs systemic racial oppression and discrimination. However, this internal legalized discrimination doesn't seem to be racial at all, in fact they have laws explicitly forbidding racism. Within Israel, what legal discrimination exists seems to be religious, or political and from the examples provided, manifests itself as:
Right of return only applying to Jews (religious)
Outlawing political parties and candidates who deny that Israel is a democratic state and a home to the Jews, (probably a response to Sharia and Palestinian attempts to deny Jews equality in their imagined one-state solution. Political and religious.)
Withholding government funds from organizations that commemorate the Nakba, the "remember the Alamo!"-like rallying cry of their enemy (political)
Jews are allowed to marry individuals from the West Bank or Gaza, Israeli Palestinians are not; many Palestinian spouses are prevented from living together in Israel (probably due to fears of anti-Jewish belligerents getting into the country through marriage and being outnumbered via fertility. Political and religious.)
Inequities via the military court system and military administration of territories (political)
Theocracy isn't great but not exactly racial discrimination either, although since ethnicity and religion overlap so much on the Palestinian side of this conflict I suppose it's easy to use it as a proxy there. Less so on the Israeli side, which is comprised of many Jewish and Arab ethnicities.
Then there's also extralegal discrimination, something most countries have to contend with, only moreso here. Citizens of countries at war are often unsurprisingly prejudiced against the groups that they are at war with, like how many Americans freaked out and became anti-Islamic after 9/11. I can only imagine how much worse that would have become if the attacks against the US were ongoing for a century. This generational hatred and cycle of violence has gone on so long in Israel that there certainly seems to be many social discrimination issues to be addressed, at all levels of society. Certainly among police and right-wing politicians. Some examples of inequities that are not because of current laws:
There are still generational socioeconomic consequences to systemic discrimination of the past.
Accusations that there are prejudiced people on public land use committees who interpret rules about culture and community standards in a discriminatory way, some who do so explicitly.
Bibi seems like a little Trump working with the Likud party to intimidate voters. (Fuck them. It'll be great to see them kicked out of power.)
Unequal and often inhumane treatment of suspects and prisoners by the legal system.
However, some criticisms they use to make the case for Apartheid I find unfair:
Refusing Palestinians access to lands that were taken from them. (This curiously seems to omit the failed declarations of war against Israel, a major reason why these lands were lost and never returned, or the fact that these parties are currently belligerent. Letting them in while they are actively trying to kill them would be stupid.)
Making Palestinians live in enclaves like Gaza, (whose situation is clearly a consequence of national belligerence and not racism.)
Palestinians within Israel with full rights only exist to provide cover for apartheid. (...damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
Characterizing Gaza as occupied even after withdrawal, and suggesting that therefore Israel should keep providing them with supply lines even as Hamas attacks and tries to genocide them. (Absurd.)
Gaza/West Bank cannot vote in Israeli elections. (They should let the people trying to kill them and outnumber them elect their leaders? K.)
Demonstrations in Palestinian territories are illegal. (That's because they historically kill a lot of people.)
Water rights from Oslo agreement. (Well, they agreed to it!)
Restrictions on Palestinian movements. Forcible separation via roads, checkpoints, walls.... (Palestine is still a belligerent nation)
There are no flawless good guys here, only shades of grey. While there's definitely room for improvement, all evidence indicates Israel treats Palestinians better than how things would be were the roles reversed. Palestine explicitly calls for genocide, and denial of Jewish rights, both popular sentiments. They too are theocratic, but far more hostile to minorities. They have a path to end all this through diplomacy anytime they want and remove most of the repressive conditions above, provided they are willing to make concessions. Without willingness for diplomatic solutions, Israel will continue to be driven to use the stick rather than the carrot and the realpolitik military situation does not favor Palestine.
Characterizing Gaza as occupied even after withdrawal, and suggesting that therefore Israel should keep providing them with supply lines even as Hamas attacks and tries to genocide them. (Absurd.)
It’s blockaded, and you know this. That’s occupied. You’re intentionally muddying the waters. Your categorizing of them being “national belligerents” is both infanitlizing and completely misses why they might be that way. It’s for, like, real reasons, like an unjust occupation and explusion.
Palestinians within Israel with full rights only exist to provide cover for apartheid.
The video explicitly talks about the people in Israel proper for the majority of it, the home demolitions and unequal treatment. You’re just wrong here.
Gaza/West Bank cannot vote in Israeli elections. (They should let the people trying to kill them and outnumber them elect their leaders? K.)
Sounds like you’re just saying “Great Replacement” demographics shit but with the local Arab population, fearing a demographic majority that might act in the same cruel ways back. A myth by the way.
Demonstrations in Palestinian territories are illegal. (That’s because they historically kill a lot of people.)
“The only democracy in the middle east” lmao. Straight fascist apologia.
Water rights from Oslo agreement. (Well, they agreed to it!)
How much choice did they have really? And the video even states they get less than the agreement (and it’s contaminated).
Restrictions on Palestinian movements. Forcible separation via roads, checkpoints, walls… (Palestine is still a belligerent nation)
I WONDER WHY
Alright man, it’s clear you either aren’t arguing in good faith, are a paid shill, are a fascist, have brain worms, or some combination of all four. It’s obvious you can’t be helped at this point.
I think few to no children were shot, but many were injured via indirect means, as I think I pretty clearly lay out.
At the very minimum, it would be a rare occurrence for so many children to only be wounded if shot by a sniper rifle. It is unlikely, in general, that the wounds were from sniper rounds.
The majority of the injured were children and two are in critical condition as a result of sniper fire targeting the hospital, a Red Crescent statement said.
So they got injured running from sniper fire? Did the sniper pull off some James Bond shit and shoot a dangling object to fall on them?
Except that’s literally not how the damage profile of such a round functions. Limbs disappear - soldiers die. Children would be slaughtered. This clearly did not happen.
I’m saying there wouldn’t be violence in hospitals if Hamas didn’t use hospitals as bases and firing platforms.
There wouldn’t be any of this war happening if Hamas wasn’t full of monsters who do not value human lives.
Imagine if Hamas just… Governed. Provided for their people. Shared some of the billions of dollars in their war chest to, you know, do what a government is supposed to do.
Instead they openly admit to attempting to maximize civilian casualties because it generates support for them and criticism from Israel.
Gazans are innocent civilians. Hamas is not. Hamas is a terrorist organization that runs Gaza like the mafia and steals from Gazans while also getting as many Gazans killed as.possible, intentionally.
Imagine if Hamas just… Governed. Provided for their people. Shared some of the billions of dollars in their war chest to, you know, do what a government is supposed to do.
Take a look at the blockade (which happened before Hamas became in charge of Gaza) and say that again.
How do you expect a country that depends on trade with the outside world to make it when cut off from said trade? Israel killed the Gazan (and Palestinian at large, but Gazan in particular) economy in 2005/2006.
Yeah, yeah, normalize relations, the magical thing you can do to make the genocidal government stop being genocidal and... granted Gaza the privilege of becoming like the West Bank (where they're also being genocided).
This war literally began because Israel is normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia and Hamas wants to stop that. The entire reason for Hamas attacking in October was because they very explicitly do not want peace in th Middle East.
Nah, the violence would find it’s way into Israel and a shit ton of civilians would be murdered. Remember October 7th when The IDF wasn’t near any hospitals in Gaza?
So I can go on and on about how this isn't how that works, but I'd recommend reading this article where an expert explains the situation in Palestine. The short of it: Israeli presence in Palestine is a violent military occupation; the status quo in Palestine is already violent.
They didn't avoid doing it? That's why the story was posted? If they were targeting Hamas, why were the majority of victims children? When they were snipers? Are Israeli snipers really just that shit?
It’s not a story. It’s coming from an organisation entirely based within Palestine. Until independents verify Red Crescent’s claims, it’s as reputable as the IDF’s claims that they did not.
Does Red Crescent have a history that would make us disbelieve their claims in this situation? They didn’t do anything crazy like shoot at and kill innocent, unarmed people two years ago during the Great March of Return then attempt to cover it up by saying they were “human shields” after the fact, right? Because if an organization did something like that, it would be good reason to distrust future claims from that organization.
Thankfully, googling “red crescent great march of return” doesn’t show them firing live rounds or tear gas canisters into crowds of peaceful, unarmed protestors, because imagine how bad it would look if you did something like that two years ago then tried to use the same excuse today for attacking a hospital!
Just curious, are you ESL? This is twice now in this comment section where it seems like you misunderstand what a comment is saying in a fundamental way
You may want to find a more direct way to communicate that, then. The way your comments are written makes it seem like you could use some practice at reading comprehension, and maybe a course on the logic of argumentation.
Specific and constructive criticism about your actions is only a passive-aggressive remark if you think you are not capable of improving yourself :) have a good one
Man, I’m so tired of seeing “human shield” comments. We can’t trust Israel’s claims when it comes to human shields. They have a track record of lying about it. Check out what happened in the Great March of Return in 2021-- IDF snipers killed 185 unarmed adults and 35 children. Israel claimed each of them were being used as a human shield. However, “human shield” refers to civilian deaths when targeting militants in combat. If all those journalists, medics, children, and unarmed activists were human shields, who were they shielding? Killing that many unarmed protestors would be a war crime, if we bothered to hold a tribunal. Israel is using the fog of war today to make their claims seem reasonable, but just five years ago the IDF showed an undeniable pattern of killing innocent people then lying about it.
Furthermore, if we’re going to accept Israel’s claims that Hamas is using human shields and their flawed definition of what a “human shield” is, then we also must accept that Israel uses human shields, too. The majority of their military bases are in densely populated areas. Their army broadcasts from a residential tower. The IDF’s main HQ is in the middle of a residential and shopping sector in Tel Aviv. Is anyone accusing Israel of using human shields? On the other hand, if Hamas were to level any of those military buildings in residential areas of Israel, is there any doubt in your mind that Hamas would be accused of war crimes?
What this really is is a double standard. Israel uses the “human shield” defense for any civilian they kill in an attempt to give themselves international support under the color of law, but Hamas does not get that privilege and does not attempt to claim it.
The purpose of laws for international war is to create a standard that’s applied equally to everyone. Israel (and the US, too) seems to think that standard only applies to their enemies.
No one defends Hamas here, but one Evel doesn’t give you the moral high ground to do an even bigger evil. I wonder in what world killing 1 civilian is condemned more than killing 10 civilians, destroying their homes, starving them and then telling everyone else oh but he killed this one person.
Israel is supposed to be the side which should try to de-escalate, especially considering the military superiority they have. What we see is quite the opposite.
Definitely not by killing 11.000 people, destroying their homes, cutting their electricity, food, water and fuel. And mind you more than 4000 of them are kids.
Oh and your math doesn’t work, Israel just updated the number of their casualties on 7th of October to 1200.
But just out of curiousity, at what number of kids we can say, enough is enough, or only Israeli kids matter?
Definitely not by killing 11.000 people, destroying their homes, cutting their electricity, food, water and fuel. And mind you more than 4000 of them are kids.
Gonna need your sources for those claims. If they are the numbers Hamas are using, then I’m not going to believe that. I mean shit, Hamas said they didn’t do the 7th of October Massacres and then 24-hours later said that they did do it–not very reliable.
Regardless, Israel has no obligation to supply the state that just attacked them with resources.
Oh and your math doesn’t work, Israel just updated the number of their casualties on 7th of October to 1200.
bruh i literally said that the numbers are changing often. If you want to argue that the casualties are way higher, feel free.
But just out of curiousity, at what number of kids we can say, enough is enough, or only Israeli kids matter?
None, no innocents should die. On the day, Hamas should never have attacked Israel, and Israel should’ve listened to Egypt’s warnings.
On the other hand, if Israel had treated Palestinians respectfully the whole time, Hamas wouldn’t exist today. It is kind of naive to blame only one of the sides for this conflict. Plus, just looking at the numbers Israel had killed and injured historically way more Palestinians.
They did so much wrong and I don’t see you condemning them about it. In a perfect world this would have not happened but it happened. You can check the human rights violations committed against Palestinians over time, Wikipedia, human rights reports, the UN, etc. but still Israel is playing the victim here, where they are literally the aggressor.
Israel has offered Palestine peace treaties, even willing to make Jerusalem, the capital of their government, into a neutral zone. West Bank was for that, but Hamas responded by launching another terrorist attack. I mean, we can go back further and further in history, saying, “Uhm actually this is who started it”, and we’d be all day until we’re arguing over cavemen.
I don’t like Israel, if that’s what you want to hear.
Ah yes, that’s why Jerusalem is now their unofficial capital. And seriously if you truly believe Israel is not to blame here you are living in a parallel reality.
Check Wikipedia or any other respecting human rights organisation what they think about the conflict and stop repeating your country’s propaganda.
And even if it was all Hamas fault, the military wing is 30K only and you already killed more than 11K believe it or not and destroyed a good chunk of civilian infrastructure and residential buildings, forcibly displacing people, which accounts for war crimes, which by the way are well documented.
It benefits propagandists to try to arbitrarily reduce the scope of a topic so they can focus on framing things in a way that validates their position.
Conflict didn’t START in 2023. Any suggestion otherwise is either naive or manipulative. The conditions that gave rise to Hamas have existed for decades and the continuation of these conditions will keep this conflict going until one group of extremists gets their genocidal wish. Right now it looks like Likud and other extreme Zionists are the ones getting their genocide.
Mind you, these are just current numbers, ever since the attack, it’s only been going up as they confirm more and more deceased or missing.
This is actually false, and if you stopped to Google your claims before you posted a comment you would know that. It’s kinda silly that you posted incorrect info then asked someone replying to you for sources to back up their claims :)
Man, I’m so tired of seeing “human shield” comments
I, too, am tired of Hamas purposely encouraging civilian casualties.
On the other hand, if Hamas were to level any of those military buildings in residential areas of Israel, is there any doubt in your mind that Hamas would be accused of war crimes?
They absolutely would be doing this if the Iron Dome did not exist, and sometimes accomplish it even when it does.
Quick reminder this entire shitfestival began with Hamas murdering over a thousand innocent people directly.
If you honestly think this began on October 7th, 2023, then you should genuinely stay out of this discussion until you educate yourself on the last 100 years of history.
i mean if you want to bring up Palestine losing two separate wars and thus losing their land, and Hamas refusing every single peace treaty (even though the West Bank accepted the terms), feel free.
Why is Hamas affecting a treaty between two parties that aren’t Hamas? You keep restating the premise but you haven’t justified why your premise is valid. The reality is that Hamas is a great excuse for Likud and the Zionist coalition to push for the one state solution they want without as bad of a pr storm.
Because at the time, while the Palestine Government operated in Gaza, they didn’t actually hold power inside of Gaza. No, Hamas controlled Gaza and was in close contact with Arafat during the Accords.
Ok? You said the West Bank refused treaties. Hamas doesn’t run the government there. The only reason the actions of extremists would affect negotiations with moderates is if you’re negotiating in bad faith and want to break the agreement while posturing as moral. Which I’m pretty sure is the Likud party’s policy given all the actions they’ve taken.
I'll engage just in case, but yeah this is very wrong. First, until 2006 the West Bank and Gaza were under one government, so the idea that the West Bank alone accepted any terms is very interesting, to say the least. Second, Israeli bullshit peace offers are too many so just say which one you want and I'll explain why it was bullshit. The only exception was the Oslo accords in 1993-1995, but those fell through when the Israeli PM was fucking assassinated by a Zionist and replaced by Bibi, who called the whole thing off.
This is the manipulative framing people love to use but anyone with even a passing understanding of what’s happening can see how manipulative it is.
You’re referring to Gaza which has been under blockade/siege since Israel withdrew. By framing it how you have you ignore the reality that even without a direct occupation Israel is crushing Gaza from a health perspective, a social perspective, and a financial perspective.
Not to mention Gaza isn’t the only Palestinian territory. In the time since Israel began sieging Gaza, the West Bank has seen upwards of fifty Palestinians killed per year by Israeli settlers, all backed by IDF soldiers. This is in a territory without Hamas by the way.
It takes some serious ignorance to act like Israel isn’t directly responsible for the abject poverty of Palestinians.
You’re referring to Gaza which has been under blockade/siege since Israel withdrew. By framing it how you have you ignore the reality that even without a direct occupation Israel is crushing Gaza from a health perspective, a social perspective, and a financial perspective.
If Hamas wasn’t stealing from Gazans, and didn’t exist as a political leader solely for the purpose of denying normalization of relations and Palestinian statehood while enforcing a less secular, more extremist state, you might have a point here.
Unfortunately for everyone, that’s why Hamas exists.
Why are you blaming an extremist militia for the circumstances that created them? Hamas didn’t exist before Israel started colonizing both Gaza and the West Bank. Not to mention the resources Zionists like Netanyahu funneled towards Hamas to help them get more powerful than the moderate coalition.
If Israel didn’t have Gaza under such an inhuman blockade/siege Hamas would be just as equipped, yet average citizens wouldn’t be starving in the streets.
To not acknowledge the direct hand Israeli military and government has had in causing this is frustratingly naive.
The Gazan blockade happened after decades of literal occupation and colonization. Ironically enough Hamas was the reason Israel stopped stealing territory.
It wasn’t a response to terrorism. It was a continuation of their own apartheid policy under a more internationally favorable lens.
It sounds like you’re using the existence of terrorists to justify the conditions that empowered these terrorists. Which is asinine and circular reasoning. Why not blame the people doing everything they can to create the scenario keeping hamas in power?
Also, why do you think not being a sovereign state affects the fact that Israel is starving millions of people, a majority of them children?
It’s mind numbing the lengths people will go to downplaying the abuse of innocents and try to push all the blame onto them and the extremists that thrive in the conditions they live within. It shows a complete lack of humanity or ability to understand human nature, wrapping your judgements up in geopolitical narratives spun to keep you busy.
You stop an extremist group by showing those at risk that your group will give them peace and stability. Not by treating the entire region like criminals.
No matter what you say to obfuscate, collective punishment on this scale is unequivocally a war crime.
Collective punishment is a punishment or sanction imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group, which could be an ethnic or political group, or just the family, friends and neighbors of the perpetrator.
So when Israel cuts off water and food to 2.2 million people because an extremist org that is a minority of the population attacks them, how is that NOT collective punishment? When they callously bomb hundreds of women and children, including hostages, to get to a handful of actual fighters, how is THAT not collective punishment? When they bomb bakeries and hospitals and refugee camps, how is that not collectively punishing them? When they restrict their freedom of movement so they’re stuck in the equivalent of an open air prison? When they snipe journalists giving unfavorable coverage, children at a protest, and go in to brutalize religious practitioners in their place of worship?
So when Israel cuts off water and food to 2.2 million people because an extremist org that is a minority of the population attacks them
Hamas is literally the government of Gaza. Thus, Israel turned off its own power that it supplies to the foreign government that attacked them. This is not collective punishment.
When they restrict their freedom of movement so they’re stuck in the equivalent of an open air prison?
Israel didnt close Gaza’s other borders. Their neighbors closed their own borders after terrorist attacks and coups. Egypt didn’t even wanna provide aid to Gazans - Israel and the US had to beg them to.
When they bomb bakeries and hospitals and refugee camps, how is that not collectively punishing them?
What was a refugee camp in 1960 is now a city, and it’s still just referred to as a refugee camp. It’s not an actual refugee camp.
Again, this is not a debate. These things are not debatable. These are just actual facts that you have backwards.
All these equivocations and just like last time you avoid the actual point. Which is that Israel is inflicting collective punishment on Palestinians, a literal flagrant war crime.
What I described is collective punishment, something you denied was happening. So stop being a coward and say you support it instead of making excuses for why it’s not that bad/justified.
You think that because Hamas exists the lives of everyone in their vicinity is forfeit. You have a ghoulish perspective.
It’s also very clear we will never see eye to eye on this so I’m not going to bother continuing this.
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