If you would otherwise vote Democratic and fail to vote for Biden over stupid shit like this, you will be electing someone who openly admits to wanting a purge program here:
Your choice is to vote for someone who supports Israel because he wants donations from the true believers, or through inaction, allow someone to get elected who actively says he will start rounding people up HERE. Immediately.
There is no choice. You don’t have to LIKE Biden. You don’t have to tell polls the truth about who you’re voting for. You don’t have to donate, and in fact I advise you do not and you tell the campaign exactly why.
But when it comes to the actual vote, no, you do not have a choice. It’s Biden or complete fucking anarchy.
If your apathy opens the door to a Republican supermajority in your state legislature, then they can more easily a) strip rights from your friends and neighbors, b) assist in the ratification of amendments and calling of Constitutional Conventions, c) gerrymander away your power to influence Congress, d) remove your city’s ability to govern itself, among others. Down-ballot races can potentially affect all of us.
He’s technically correct. As long as the electoral college exists, many peoples votes effectively don’t matter because that state will always go one way. Once that occurs, the opposing votes are effectively erased.
Afaik the American special the electoral college votes for whatever the majority vote of that State is. So votes do count, towards that majority.
If everybody assumes that one party will win and doesn’t go to vote it will never change, if everybody who thinks that their vote doesn’t matter would do that, a change can happen.
Congressional, state and local elections are held at the same time on the same damn ballot and absolutely matter. They absolutely will affect you and congress is arguably just as important as potus. It’s called being engaged, instead just complaining while letting others take the wheel.
‘my vote doesn’t matter’ is a self fulfilling prophecy. The more people actually believe that, the more they won’t go and vote and then indeed it doesn’t matter.
However if all the people that think that their vote doesn’t matter actually do go and vote, they would be a significant demographic.
It might not make a difference straight away, but thinks only happen if you invest in them.
Same thing with sports. If you support one team, it makes you more invested in the game itself. Your team might not win every time, but if you care only about winning you’re not a true supporter. It will make it easy more satisfying if you do win, though. And one day you will.
To add to this: if the opposition party consistently shows up to vote, the dominant party gets nervous, and has to focus on the chance of losing. Not showing up means they’ve truly won.
It also shows the opposition party that they can and should invest the time in supporting that area, because there’s people who haven’t given up yet.
Also, the president isn’t the only person on the ballot, and small races are where more radical third parties actually have a shot!
Except in actuality where with the electoral college in play, states that have as few electors as Rhode Island have a smaller number of EC votes than every margin of victory in the modern history of presidential elections. You could axe any one state with that few number of electors and you wouldn’t change a presidential result of the last century or more.
Okay? My point is that the electoral college means not every vote will count, and that is a system that only effects the presidential. So saying, and I quote from who I replied to “every vote matters” still isn’t telling the whole story as much as something like “every vote matters except the votes for president unless you live in specific places”
Really? The first thing you do when seeing this is tell people to vote for Genocide Joe instead of saying “actually let’s try to get a third party going”.
"No guys we have to vote for Hitler, Stalin is way worse! ".
That’s not true either, it is simply that democracy is complex and messy. Vote in primaries, campaign for better candidates, and pay money to organizations that support the things that matter most to you.
There’s a whole Wikipedia page of dominant parties that reigned supreme as a duopoly in this country until a third party came along and dethroned them. What you just said shows a shocking ignorance of history. Vote whig.
There is a whole Wikipedia page showing changes in name. The function of the first past the post system means these are fundamentally the same constructs with different branding. If a party replaces democrats or republicans, then we will be back in the same place in an election cycle.
You’re doing way worse than throwing away your vote, you’re voting FOR genocide. If you and other Dem voters who want to feel good about yourself weren’t cowards and voted Green we wouldn’t be perpetuating a genocide in the first place.
Any vote is for genocide. You’re voting for either a self avowed zionist (Biden) a literal Nazi (Trump) or throwing away your vote to allow the literal Nazi to win.
No one voting Stein would ever vote Biden so that’s untrue. A tired old argument that’s lost it’s luster, just like all your arguments for voting for Biden.
Making it so Trump supporters can’t vote will definitely hinder his progress. How many died because they failed to take Covid protections? How many can’t vote because they are now Jan. 6 convicts?
You act like there was a non-genocide option. Once Hamas did that attack, there was no stopping the crazy right wing Israeli government from doing what they are doing.
So what? The US should take a hard line against Israel anyways, even if it does no good, right? Great, so Israel is removed from the US sphere of influence and goes shopping for a new sugar daddy. That would be China, or more likely Russia. Now Russia is chummy with both Israel and Iran, which has the inconvenient little side effect that the Palestinians will lose the support of Iran. But who cares about the Palestinians anyways.
Any hope the US had of restraining Israel in any way whatsoever is contingent on our continued support. Without that, we have no influence and someone else steps in.
I’m not claiming that Biden has handled this perfectly, but the general direction he has gone has been in the best interest of saving as many Palestinian lives as possible. There are no clean hands in foreign policy.
Yikes. Way to miss the point. I was laying out the unintended consequences of naive foreign policy, and your pointing to a list of people you think are naive enough to do it - and you seem to think that’s a good thing. Assuming you are right, they would be fucking over the Palestinians in order to be smugly pro-Palestine. Form over function and virtue signaling instead of getting to better outcomes are hallmarks of third party politics in this country.
The outcome of a policy isn’t irrelevant to a policy, it’s the whole point of the policy. I didn’t make a wild guess or rely on my own intuition. That scenario is one of several that foreign policy experts are warning against. The worst case is Iran getting actively involved, but that’s far less likely.
not really: eyewitness testimony is some of the worst we can ask for. you should ask carville, though, you don’t have to: he’s in the mini-doc i linked.
You could say the exact same thing for the exact same reasons about the US government. If you can’t fix a rotton organization, then any attempt at political action in the United States is a fools errand. Thankfully, you’re just talking out of your ass. We get it, you’re edgy.
Setting aside that you know nothing of my voting history, this is entirely irrelevant.
The Democratic party used to be what the Republicans are today. Eventually they became the party of FDR and the new deal. Now they are the party of Bill Clinton and third way neoliberal corporatism. Things change, and we can influence the direction of that change. Forcing Biden to the left has made him a better president than anyone on the left expected. He’s still not the president we want, but we shifted him in the right direction. The Democratic party as a whole is better now than it was 10 years ago.
Go ahead and piss on the progress that’s been made, but then be prepared to explain how third party movements have done any better.
Democracy is when you get to choose between genocide over there OR genocide over there and right here too. Because you know damn well Trumps policy on Israel won’t be any different.
Go lick orange asshole elsewhere. Or did you forget when he tried to start a war with Iran by assassinating one of their generals on Iraqi land against the Iraqi government's wishes?
Look up how many Trump did that t- oh, wait, he revoked the rule implemented by Obama that demanded drone strike deaths be publicly reported, and outright ignored the legal demands to release the strikes, so you can't.
Fucking dumbass. Keep chowing on Great Orange's literal shit, and maybe he'll deign to grab you by the pussy too.
I’m not American. Trumps track record was a serious improvement for people hold that office, all you have to do is look at the facts and numbers, and ignore how unpleasant he was. I know, I know, Baracks class n charisma made everything seem OK when they were literally murdering a head of state to intentionally destabilize but it wasn’t
Clearly it hasn't stopped you from attaching your lips to Trump's asshole. "Just look at the numbers!" right after being shown that numbers are quite literally not available because of Trump's explicit reversal of previous policy. It's like those pig-fuckers saying "Read the transcript!", not realizing one of the first fucking lines of the document is saying that it's not a transcript. Just utter, brainless cocksucking for a STD-ridden loser.
If you’re going to seriously try to insist that there’s no homophobic subtext in “You have fun sucking off your orange messiah”, then you’re more dishonest than Trump himself.
Clever, but wrong. You actually get to choose between:
Continuing to give $600 million in annual aid to Gaza and diplomacy to try to get Israel to minimize civilian casualties while they understandably pursue Hamas terrorists, Or,
Fascism and complete disregard for civilian casualties.
Perhaps neither is to your taste, but there are stark differences in the two positions.
Yes, I know, actual rational policy-making is so boring. It is much less satisfying than over-simplified, one-sided memes. But, you know, that’s what adults do. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Voting for fascism is also voting for genocide. You’re choices are a little genocide without fascism or a lot of genocide with fascism. I know what I’m choosing.
From a utilitarian point of view, it probably makes more sense to attempt to minimize suffering rather than opting out of the decision and thereby passively enable greater suffering.
But hey, it’s the trolley problem all over again, and people hate even thinking about that one.
What an inspiring message. Biden will win for sure if we all make just one lecturing, patronizing post each day. Bonus points if you can find someone who had family killed in Gaza! They need the most reminding that Trump is the real threat.
Sadly, I don’t live in a swing state so it doesn’t matter who I vote for. My vote, whether it be for Biden or a third party, is effectively a protest vote against the state’s electors voting for Trump. I can vote, not vote, vote for a third party; it really doesn’t matter.
Whatever happened to “vote blue no matter who” anyway?
Even though I belong to one political party, I personally always vote on a case-by-case basis, for the best person for the job/country, and not automatically for party.
or how about we overthrow our shit govt instead of participating in this fucking circus act year after year. also this isnt stupid shit its a genocide you daft cunt
Not sure what you mean, but it sounds like you just don’t care because it doesn’t affect your choice. I wonder how you will feel if one day your party’s candidate finally crosses your line
Shit take. Fascism is never out of the picture and spouting “vote blue no matter who” only pushes the window closer to it. You’ll just say the same thing in 4 years when it’s Trump again or one of his many soundalikes vs another genocidal Zionist wearing a D by their name. Engaging with the 2 party system validates it and it will never be “healthy.”
you will be electing someone who openly admits to wanting a purge program here:
Understood. You’re okay with that stuff happening in Palestine, but not the USA, because you live in the USA. Supporting tyranny abroad is a-okay because you don’t think it affects you.
There’s no way you could honestly interpret what I wrote that way. I’m responding to the fans of Joe who are openly saying “Who cares about genocide when Trump is worse?”
I do care about genocide, and that’s (one of many reasons) why I’ll be voting for Jill Stein, not Joe Biden.
If you’re not familiar, the US uses a two party system. Not voting is no different than voting for Jill. There’s no difference between not voting for Biden and voting for Trump.
Unfortunately, it’s not up to “the Democrats”, it’s up to the DNC and there is no way they will back anyone else unless Joe has a major medical event between now and election day.
Even if he did drop out, they would push Harris who is poison right now.
The problem is that, in a democracy, you have to vote for the best candidate. Otherwise, democracy doesn’t work. If you decide to vote for a candidate "you don’t like* (i.e. “strategic voting”), you are contributing to the problem.
People call it “voting for the lesser evil”, but a vote for a lesser evil…is still a vote for evil. So, while it isn’t as wrong as voting for Trump, it’s still wrong.
If there can only be 1 winner, and there are 2 frontrunners who have the only real chance of winning, a 3rd competitor only takes votes from a frontrunner and has no chance of winning themselves.
As someone like Stein is mentioned as an alternative to voting for trump, therefore the person was never a trump voter, they were never going to ADD to Trump’s chances. Their only voting action is to either vote for Biden, or NOT* vote. By NOT* I mean not contribute to bidens vote totals.
Voting for stein is effectively a non republican voter staying home.
This is a major problem with our voting system, there can only ever be 2 realistic choices, and a third party vote has greater game theory implications than independent voters like to accept.
every vote must be earned. so-called “third parties” dont take votes from other parties: they earn them from voters.
Voting for stein is effectively a non republican voter staying home.
for a party who believes they deserve every non-republican vote. but in the elections offices across the country, it’s effectively a vote for Jill Stein.
oh, you know what? maybe it’s the option of having my foot crushed or amputated. one isn’t quite as bad but neither is really something i’ll be choosing given any other choice.
Saying “both sides bad” has implied meaning. I’m only expanding on the words you said without changing anything. If you said, “The Earth orbits the Sun.” and I expanded that to explain Kepler’s laws, I’m not contradicting you or putting words in your mouth.
If you want to suggest details such as an example where Trump did good and Biden did bad on a particular policy, then please elaborate. Trump said Ukraine needs to surrender. Biden didn’t say Ukraine should surrender so they are both equally bad? Give me an example.
Trump said Ukraine should surrender. Biden said Ukraine shouldn’t surrender and the Republican controlled House of Representatives should help Ukraine. You group both as bad.
Let’s be clear: I’m condescending you, because you have a childish understanding and engagement with presidential elections.
Not because you choose to vote 3rd party, there’s nothing wrong with that.
But because you naively dodge the consequences of your voting choices.
Stand on whatever justification you like, but voting has consequences, and 3rd party votes are levers pulled against a competitive candidate. That’s it.
Basic understanding of game theory is not rhetoric.
a basic understanding of it would tell you it doesn’t dictate human actions, and people frequently make decisions that do not seem to be in their “rational self interest”
are you sure? biden wrote the crime bill and the patriot act and voted to fund every war he could. trump signed the first step act and didn’t start any new wars and he even doubled my unemployment payments. joe promised me 2k and gave me 1200.
and to think that either of them are even trying to be leftist is laughable.
i’m probably gonna vote for jill stein or cornel west. i guess it depends on whether west gets ballot access but there is some possibility jill can just win me over.
Good thing you do remember since he’s still ripping apart immigrant families. Biden’s border policy is only marginally better than Trumps, he just doesn’t brag about it.
I think what you are saying is mostly true but also you do have a choice. If you can’t bring yourself to vote for Biden because of well founded reasons I don’t think it’s fair to judge because of that. All the centrists start screaming and losing their minds that they are going to lose because their candidate sucks and blame it on people who have specific, previously vocalized reasons for not wanting to vote for said candidate.
You aren’t the problem if you don’t want to vote for Biden because of his unwavering support for genocide. Yes the alternative is worse, but election after election you can’t just keep handing centrists your vote who don’t give a shit about you or your policies (and actively shit on you while loudly posturing that they aren’t like you at all). At some point you have to make the threat of withholding your vote a real one, there are always consequences to that especially for this election but at the same time nothing is really going to change if we keep handing centrist corporate democrats the reigns to power because this time is an emergency too (just like last time).
I recommend voting for Biden for similar reasons you brought up, but I also don’t think there is any shame to deciding you can’t bring yourself to vote for such a trash candidate and want to choose this election so support a third party. Bad timing? Yeah, but it isn’t the voters fault for not wanting to vote for someone that doesn’t represent them?
Yes the alternative is worse, but election after election you can’t just keep handing centrists your vote who don’t give a shit about you or your policies (and actively shit on you while loudly posturing that they aren’t like you at all). At some point you have to make the threat of withholding your vote a real one, there are always consequences to that especially for this election but at the same time nothing is really going to change if we keep handing centrist corporate democrats the reigns to power because this time is an emergency too (just like last time).
Here’s where you’re missing something fundamental. You’re taking as a given that a protest vote will meaningfully register with the Democratic Party, and they’ll chase you around to get your vote back. I’d offer that a significant reason major US parties have drifted rightward over the past 40 years is this. Conservatives skew older. Leftists skew younger. Young people simply don’t vote. Ergo conservatives have an outsized voice in the political sphere. When more leftists disengage, the conservative voice grows louder.
If you protest vote the Democratic Party, you’re just proving to them that they can’t count on your vote. If they can’t count on your vote, they have the option of scrambling to try to figure out what you want, or chasing voters whose support they can count on, and based on recent history that’ll probably result in more of a shift to the right. Because, at the end of the day, right-leaning voters have a weird fervor that leftists don’t share, and leftists disengage at the drop of a hat. If we’re being honest, that’s not a great group of people to have on your team if you’re trying to sustain political relevance.
I don’t think this sentiment is about protest. It’s about conscious. Many cannot consciously vote for a Zionist president complicit with genocide. Many may change their minds, it’s a year away, but many won’t. We can selfishly brow-beat them into voting for Biden. But in the end, it’s their choice.
We can selfishly brow-beat them into voting for Biden.
Shaming people into voting for your candidate doesn’t work, but Dems will do it anyway. It splits the left and helps Republicans, but they either aren’t aware of this or don’t care.
If you coerce/force someone to vote the way you want them to, then can you truly say we live in a free country?
There’s nothing stopping the Democrats from putting someone else up to run against Trump.
And don’t say no one else can be Trump, there’s a whole year still, and it’s going to be the undecided Centrists who decide who wins in any case, so you just need to put someone up that appeals to them mostly.
Nobody is going to tell the sitting president not to run again, that’s a decision he needs to come to all on his own, and if he doesn’t, the DNC will not oppose him.
Nobody is going to tell the sitting president not to run again
Actually if the warning signs were dire enough, the inner democratic party elites would push hard for it. Some are saying that the Cali Gov is already running a stealth run, being ready to jump in if Biden exits.
As a Cali native, Newsom would be worse than Biden. If he ran in a Democratic primary, he might lose California because Democrats here don’t like him that much. If the primary was between him and Biden, I would vote for Biden because he’s less elitist and has a better moral compass. Newsom honestly doesn’t seem to have serious principles beyond political success. He’s a distilled version of what people hate about Democrats.
As a Cali native, Newsom would be worse than Biden. If he ran in a Democratic primary, he might lose California because Democrats here don’t like him that much.
Actually he was doing a lot better until just recently when he started supporting Biden, basically pissing off Californians as he moves to the middle for a national race. But historically he’s had good (for a Governer) ratings.
The survey showed Newsom’s popularity has tumbled this year as he continues to amplify his national profile and campaign outside of the Golden State to support President Biden and attack Republican governors and their conservative political agendas.
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Newsom honestly doesn’t seem to have serious principles beyond political success
Yeah he does come off is being slick and opportunist, and I hate saying what I’m about to say, but at the same time he’s a politician. /shrug
The kind of person I’d like to vote for never seems to run for office.
Newsom hate isn’t new. There was genuine worry he was going to lose his recall election, replaced by a radical Republican with a plurality of support from only those that voted for his removal. Left wing Democrats who were critical of Newsom united and organized to prevent a fascist rising to power. We put aside our gripes with corpocrats to prevent someone even worse from winning.
California is guaranteed for the Democrats in the modern era, so we usually sit on the sidelines of the fight for the presidency and hope other states make the right call. However, the recall race showed that we were also willing to hold our nose and vote for the lesser of two evils.
That’s part of why I get so frustrated by the anti voting shit. Biden is more of a genuine human being than Newsom, yet people fall for accelerationist propaganda. They delude themselves into thinking that not voting will strengthen the left when the opposite is true. The unreliability of young, left wing voters reinforces the establishment bias of not appealing to them. If they won’t even turn out for Bernie in the 2020 primary, why rely on them?
The survey showed Newsom’s popularity has tumbled this year as he continues to amplify his national profile and campaign outside of the Golden State to support President Biden
Any governor in any state always gets some hate, but Newson popularity’s gone down allot just recently because of his support for Biden and his move towards the center for a possible national run.
There was genuine worry he was going to lose his recall election, replaced by a radical Republican with a plurality of support from only those that voted for his removal.
In California? Highly doubtful (the italicized part).
I was here, and I saw that the local news pushed that angle (probably for ratings) but the people in the streets weren’t really saying that.
They delude themselves into thinking that not voting will strengthen the left when the opposite is true.
I actually agree with this, but, I think the nation should come before ideology, and definitely for party. And at the end, you have to do what you think is right, not what is best for a particular organization.
Bottom line, I don’t believe Biden is physically and mentally able to hold the office for another four years. He should leave with the thanks of a grateful nation for steering us away from Trump, and not cling on for another four years.
Give me another Democrat to vote for, and I’ll happily do so, or a good/decent centrist Republican for that matter. The choices we have to choose from these days are horrible.
I get the physical part of Biden being unfit, but not the mental part. I’ve not seen any evidence of his age making him less intelligent or mentally. He’s not physically well, but whenever someone says he’s senile, I automatically assume they don’t know what they’re talking about. “Senile” is not synonymous with “out of touch.”
With the recall, concern wasn’t just coming from some rando or only Democratic partisans. I heard it from respected political scientists. They thought Newsom was likely to win, but there was still great risk of a Republican governor getting elected without popular support. It’s how Arnold Schwarzenegger, a moderate Republican, managed to get elected. The Governator never could have won a Republican primary, and didn’t even win the popular vote. If it weren’t for serious campaigning in the last few months, the recall could have been close.
Newsom always had majority approval, but the concern about the recall came because people were only lukewarm on him. He isn’t an exciting candidate, which is what the left claims to want. Like I said before, Biden seems more genuine about his morals and principles than Newsom. Newsom is more of what the left hates than Biden.
I get the physical part of Biden being unfit, but not the mental part. I’ve not seen any evidence of his age making him less intelligent or mentally.
The regular main news goes out of its way not to show him being in that state, for obvious reasons, but there are moments caught on camera. Not only because they help support him, but what it would mean for Americans and their worry factor if they thought their current president was incapable of doing the job.
He’s not physically well, but whenever someone says he’s senile, I automatically assume they don’t know what they’re talking about.
That’s honestly kind of insulting to say that, and it shows a lack of awareness on your own part. You’re making one hell of an assumption that people aren’t informed and that they’re making a diagnosis without putting any thought behind it.
“Senile” is not synonymous with “out of touch.”
Also, it’s not binary, we’re not talking about perfectly sane or completely senile, there’s a range in between, and there are moments of clarity, and moments of not clarity.
{Comments about Newson’s unpopularity.}
I’m not going to hash this out detail by detail, but just say that you and I must have lived in different California’s, because as a native, I didn’t see what you’re describing.
–
There are other Democrats that could run against Trump and have a better chance of success.
Finally, there are literal medical tests that he could take that test for mental competence. If he took those tests from a trusted source, and passed them, then that would be good enough for me. It’s not the literal age, it’s the ‘mileage’, that’s the determining factor of capability.
That’s honestly kind of insulting to say that, and it shows a lack of awareness on your own part. You’re making one hell of an assumption that people aren’t informed and that they’re making a diagnosis without putting any thought behind it.
I’m not out of line in thinking that people can’t diagnose Joe Biden of being mentally unfit. People couldn’t definitively diagnose Trump with narcissistic personality disorder, and he didn’t have a known disorder that could interfere in a diagnosis. Biden has a well documented stutter, making it hard for any observer to parse his communication disorder from cognitive impairment.
People who are informed would recognize this, and even those willing to diagnose politicians from TV appearances would need solid examples of abnormal behavior that could only be explained by cognitive impairment. I don’t take armchair diagnosis seriously because I have some expertise in psychology. People want a reason to have someone other than Biden, so they assume mental disability can be determined by the public. I don’t think we can with the info available. Gut feelings will just reinforce your biases.
People who are informed would recognize this, and even those willing to diagnose politicians from TV appearances would need solid examples of abnormal behavior that could only be explained by cognitive impairment. I
I’m aware of that condition, I’ve heard/seen it before. Still, I’ve also seen other things.
You’re assuming they are mutually exclusive, that if you have a stutter, you can’t have mental cognizance problems, and that’s not true at all.
As I mentioned before, if he took a legal mental capacity test and passed it then that would alleviate my personal worries, but I don’t see that happening, at least I haven’t heard them speak of it.
It’s not centrists who decide elections by choosing a candidate, it’s the people fed up with the system who decide elections by choosing whether or not to show up for the vote.
It’s not centrists who decide elections by choosing a candidate, it’s the people fed up with the system who decide elections by choosing whether or not to show up for the vote.
Well I speaking towards from the pool of people who actually show up to vote, decide the vote. Not the no shows.
These days the two sides are ‘baked in’, so it’s going to be the undecided middle that decides.
I’m assuming that if the Democrats choose somebody else besides Biden, that the younger voters have more of a chance of showing up to vote, than with Biden.
No, it is never the middle that decides elections in the US. Democrats win when turnout is high, and Republicans win when turnout is low.
Know how AOC won her seat from Pelosi’s presumed successor who was considered unbeatable? She focused her campaign on unlikely voters. When she actually spoke to those people, they showed up to vote. That’s the path to victory for Democrats.
Hillary dominated with moderate voters in 2016. She was also an uninspiring elitist which led to terrible turnout. Biden wasn’t much better, but four years of Trump drove record breaking turnout,band Biden won.
It’s all about energy and engagement. Biden sure isn’t going to bring that next year, but maybe there is enough anti-Trump sentiment left to drive turnout. Of course Trump might not be the candidate. I think Biden might beat DeSantis, but not a slightly more obscure candidate like Nikki Haley.
You are right about the energy level scenario, but I wasn’t speaking towards that. I’m assuming that unless a candidate really screws up that everyone will come out to vote, since we’re very much in a party warish voting mode these days.
I was speaking about what the size and a large turnout vote, the people who are not already baked in for one party or another, always vote just for one party, and when there is a large turnout.
Basically everyone else, the centrists, those are rarely vote, those who literally jump back and forth and decide on a case by case basis based on the individual running in every election, etc.
America isn’t that free of a country. Democrats were always going to run their incumbent. The time to choose a left wing candidate was the 2020 primary, which is why I was devastated when Biden won. I knew we would be stuck with him for 8 fucking years. The left didn’t turn out enough in that primary, and the establishment went with one of the worst choices.
The fact that there isn’t some popular Democratic alternative at this point means it will not happen. Biden has been the most left wing president in over half a century, and none of his shitty decisions have been due to his age. Organize with the DSA or promote left wing Democrats if you’re fed up with the establishment. Recognize that becoming cynically apathetic makes you a pathetic asshole, not a person who’s better than those that try.
Hate on Biden all you want, but please vote for him. Trump is worse. Trump was behind moving the US embassy to Jerusalem. Trump instituted a ban on travel to the USA from some (note some) Muslim majority countries. If Trump gets elected, expect Project 2025 to come to fruition.
im guessing you aren’t functional. you are probably misrepresenting the premise on purpose, because i don’t think anyone is actually this stupid. you have some weird anti-social thing going on. i don’t care that much about american politics, but i probably wouldn’t like you as a person.
the premise is “A is shit but B is far worse”. it’s everywhere in the thread. it’s in your examples here. it’s a really common thing to say.
this premise is not in conflict with “A is still shit 4 years later”. this premise is not in conflict with “B is apocalyptically bad”. this premise is not equivalent to “A gets better if you vote A”.
Funny, that’s exactly what I was told in 2020 when I asked about 2024, and yet here we are once again, once again being yelled at about how we have no choice but to vote for the right wing war criminal.
I’m not sure what you’re alluding to. One party probably won’t win every election until the end of days, nor should it. However, votes are one way that we have a voice in government, and your government represents you less when your voice isn’t heard.
democracy is just going to end sooner or later anyway
This is speculative, and a bad reason to not vote on purpose. The US has a flawed democracy, and it can get better. Voting won’t “fix” our government alone, but not voting is a guaranteed way to let others choose and vote for you.
You should probably get some outside opinions that aren’t on Lemmy. Lemmy seems to have a very specific crowd that tends to be an echo chamber for certain beliefs and opinions. There are better things to do with your vote than not vote at all.
Edit: The fact that this was down-voted is proof of Lemmy’s echo chamber tendencies, ha.
It shows where the US stands compared to other countries in a democracy index. But it sounds like you aren’t interested, so I’m sorry to have bothered you.
It shows where a bunch of British conservatives think the US stands on a ‘democracy index’ they made up themselves. Oh what a shock, they think their allies are democratic and their enemies aren’t. Why should I care
Did you think the ‘democracy index’ was handed down by God on a gold tablet?
Trump is a Zionist too. He officially recognized Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel. Anybody who thinks they will fix the Israel problem by not voting for Biden is sorely mistaken.
ITT: Copium on still voting for this senile dumbass because the alternative is a brain dead orange or in the case that he is disqualified, another senile dumbass.
The choice is a guy who is okay with participating via weapons delivery in the active slaughtering of innocents half a world a way, or a guy who wants to slaughter everyone that doesnt worshop him as god at home.
or a guy who wants to slaughter everyone that doesnt worshop him as god at home.
Oh God, spare us the performative melodrama. The only difference between Trump and any Republican president in the last half century is that Trump is crass.
What, you don’t like the scare tactics being pushed by Dems and all of his supporters? You don’t like being shamed or scared into voting for a candidate you don’t really agree with?
Dang I thought that worked well in 2016, just barely in 2020, should be great this time around, too!
Yes. Correct, the main issue is the crassness. You nerds never gave a shit about this legalise bullshit before, and W Bush literally did overthrow “American democracy” and you people adore him.
Yes I give a shit about living in a democracy believe it or not. I’m an American. You’ve lost your mind to think that’s just some pretense.
The Supreme Court sided with Bush, Trump lost 50 court challenges and still denied the results and riled up his little cult of insurrectionists who attacked the capital and now continue to believe every GOP loss is the direct result of “Demonrats” stealing more elections.
Yes I give a shit about living in a democracy believe it or not.
Well I have news for you; you don’t.
The Supreme Court sided with Bush
Famously impartial and honest political body, the US supreme court. Do you actually know what happened in 2000? Like, this isn’t disputed, Bush straight up stole an election he lost, and the fact that he did it through bullshit legal manipulation doesn’t make it batter. In fact, the fact that you think it does make it better supports my point that you only care about crassness.
“Crassness”. What a fucking joke.
Again, Trump hasn’t done anything that every Republican president in the last half century didn’t do, and he didn’t do nearly as much damage to your democracy as Bush did, but you only care about it when he’s crass about it.
And Trump did much worse than Bush yet you cite Bush as some precedent to justify Trump even though you don’t actually support that precedent to begin with…? I have my own thoughts on Bush vs Gore, but sorry if I didn’t take your bait and engage about a completely different election, I knew it would end in some nonsense distraction like this.
Not even worth arguing with you, you seem perfectly content with arguing with whatever made up anti-crass, democracy-ambivalent character you’ve concocted in your head. Have fun with that.
I have my own thoughts on Bush vs Gore, but sorry if I didn’t take your bait and engage about a completely different election, I knew it would end in some nonsense distraction like this.
Sounds like you don’t have your own thoughts about it.
Not even worth arguing with you
What, were you expecting to get paid?
At the end of the day, if Trump was just polite and followed decorum, you’d have no more problem with him than you did Bush.
OK, so hear me out: anyone who is for a Two State Solution can legitimately call themselves a zionist, because one of those two states is going to be Israel.
a political movement that was originally begun in order to establish an independent state for Jewish people, and now supports the development and protection of the state of Israel
In current parlance, “zionism” has come be equated with kahanism and its variations, but that is wildly inaccurate. This is to say that Netanyahu’s and his allies’ brand of zionism is an extremist variant that threatens to subsume the whole.
But there are other brands of zionism that are peaceful and pro-palestinian. Namely: the zionism of Fatah and the PLO, who have accepted the 2 state solution.
I would even go so far as to claim that any One State Solution that envisions a pluralistic and democratic country shared in freedom and liberty between Jews, Muslims, Christians and others is also a zionist vision, as it assumes that this state would also be for the Jewish people (similar to how Canada is supposed to be also for the Quebecois people).
So, I am not sure why “zionism” should be a dirty word. Call the extremist zionists what they are: kahanists, reclaim the basic idea that zionism means that Jews also have the right to be safe in the lands of Israel-Palestine, and let’s have some peace and reconciliation.
You used a learner’s dictionary definition of the word, which is a little bit different. Learner’s dictionaries are for people who are first learning their first language, and give simple definitions using simple language. Think of it like comparing Wikipedia to Simple Wikipedia
That’s great, except it’s not how it’s actually used in either a geopolitical or casual context.
I doubt, very, very much Biden meant it that way either, because no one would ever use it that way in these circumstances without adding in your very explanation by requirement to make it clear they’re not calling for genocide.
Until Bernie Sanders the word socialism was a dirty word in American politics. Now it’s a millennial and gen Z staple and does not connotate the soviet union and other cold war ghosts.
The fact that the kahanist Zionists are almost done eating up the word zionism doesn’t mean we should let them. We need to be appropriating the word back and putting it to good use.
Conceding Zionism to the extreme right (both in and out of Israel )is just a lack of political imagination, that condemns us to stay locked in the cycle.
The word Zionism can and should be réappropriated and made a tool for peace. It has a strong emotional attachment for Jews, while the majority of Palestinian political and civil society organizations have embraced its original and literal meaning in the sense of support for a Two State Solution. This means that Zionism can be a word that means the common sense of peace, justice and reconciliation. When the PLO and Fatah stand for the common sense solution, Palestinians have won.
Call me naive but I actually think that soon there will exist a brief window where peace will be more possible than it has been for a long time. So long as Israel, currently controlled by the kahanist virus, is not allowed to carry out genocide, that is. And as much as my commie ass hates to admit It, I kinda have a bit of faith on the Americans to play a good role in this.
Exactly, I’m also thinking Mercosur’s role in this conflict will be decisive! Or were you talking about the USA that has eaten up the word America?
I agree with your point though, words get eaten up all the time. It’s a very good strategy for capturing the attachment people have with the word. It’s been done with the word democracy as well.
Socialism is still very demonized in American politics. Try to get into a position of power while describing yourself as a socialist (and I mean an actual socialist eg. ending the Cuban embargo, supporting left-wing movements across the world and advocating for the end of capitalism).
Also neither Bernie nor any democratic politician is a actually socialist, they are still very capitalist. At best they are for "capitalism with a human face)
Zionism has always had multiple different meanings, so this isn’t a new phenomenon. Humans made up every word in existence. There is no single definition for any word and there is no universal dictionary handed down by some higher power. We make up everything and write the rules ourselves. Pretending that isn’t how language works on a fundamental level is simply wrong.
Why did you use the Oxford Leaner’s Dictionary to define Zionism, as opposed to the Oxford Reference? From the Oxford Reference, emphasis mine:
A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.
In the same vein, why didn’t you use wikipedia to define Zionism like you did for for kahanism? FTA on Wikipedia about Zionism, emphasis mine:
Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.
What both of these definitions point out that the one you linked did not mention is that original Zionism was about more than just the creation of a Jewish state–it was about the creation of a Jewish state in the Jewish holy land. That last bit is important-- there would be no Israeli-Palestinian conflict if Israel was located in Idaho.
I did not know the difference between the two types of dictionaries. I just used the last reference (#11) of the first paragraph from the Wikipedia article on Zionism.
But I don’t see how my argument is changed by the addition of the geographical component in the dictionary definition, which I already was assuming in my head at least. The Two State Solution is about two states in the areas that are currently Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.
Not defending Biden because he deserves all the shit he needs to get for his stance on this issue, but this is Times of Israel afterall. Almost all Israeli news outfits have a habit of posturing as if all of America’s political leadership is behind them no questions asked, while the truth isn’t so cut and dry.
Bernie for example has been quoted by Haaretz and TOI where he is calling for Israel’s right to “defend itself”, while Bernie’s stance on Israeli support is more nuanced and comes with a bunch of strings and caveats. He’s all called out Netyanhu’s government as a terrorist/extremist regime.
Israeli media is absolute dogshit for neutrality and is straight up propaganda. Best stay away from it and take it with a grain of salt.
Imagine a Catholic or Muslim president loudly say he identify with movement that sole purpose is to genocide people from a land and live on it.
Nonetheless, a movement that resulted in multiple miltant organization that considerd as a terrorist organization by the US and the UK. Yes the literally bombed hotels where UK officials where staying at. Then become the current IDF.
What exactly? I agree that Israel has done mistakes. However, that’s not fault of zionism, just like Slovakia’s mistakes were not the fault of czechoslovakism
Its an ideology that has inspired an ongoing genocide for the past 75 years to start, its religious colonialism. When did slovakia do a genocide inspired/justified by a few thousand year old text?
You are calling genocide something that is not a genocide. Definitely not for 75 years. The need for the existence of Israel became mainly present after the WW2. The most logical choice of land was middle east due to the historical ties.
Yes, I agree that 1948 exodus of Palestinians was handled terribly (also from the Israel’s side) but it was a direct result the war that happened there (which was btw started by Arab nations).
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