FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I am an atheist and have always been one, so feel free to reject what I say here, but I think I understand why they aren’t, and let me illustrate with a story from my own life:

When I was 26, I moved from the Indiana town where I had spent my whole life to Los Angeles for work. I left my parents, my friends, even my wife for six months because she was finishing grad school. I knew I would see them all again eventually, but I still didn’t want to leave them and if there were a way I could have delayed it for years but still have been able to have a dream job in L.A., I probably would have. The first night when I got to L.A., I cried and cried because of everything I had left behind even though I was looking forward to a bright new future.

So it’s not that they don’t want to go to the afterlife, it’s that they want to experience this life as long as possible. They want to be with all of their friends and family now, not wait for them all to die so they can be reunited in heaven.

I don’t know, it makes sense to me.

BonesOfTheMoon,

This makes total sense.

surewhynotlem,

I think you’ve misunderstood the awesomeness of heaven. You wouldn’t miss anyone. Infinite happiness.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Religious beliefs are in no way uniform or rational on that sort of concept.

surewhynotlem,

Yeah, but without the carrot, people would fight against the stick. Every religion has both the things you shouldn’t do and the reward for not doing them.

As far as I know at least.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You’re talking about what people should think. I’m talking about people’s motivations based on what I am suggesting they actually do think.

surewhynotlem,

That’s absolutely fair. Sense making isn’t a requirement then.

RememberTheApollo_,

The more deeply you think about heaven the more hellish it sounds. Basically you get stuck in this drugged-out bliss perpetually in worship of god. Because you’re stripped of all your corporeal problems and desires. You’re not going to hang out with friends (who would they be? Do they get a say what life stage they appear as?) None of your corporeal hobbies are there. Maybe your spouse decides they want to hang out with their previous partner who died in a car crash? You don’t learn. You don’t grow. You don’t get new experiences. You have nothing to look forward to. You’re a slave to stasis.

The only answer to solving these problems is to place the person in a bubble. But that creates a whole new set of problems. Heaven sounds pretty shitty.

Jaytreeman,

I agree with you.
Either the person isn't a 'good follower' and isn't going to the good place.
Or they don't actually believe. Because there should be no fear or apprehension about going to the good place

z00s, (edited )

People who believe in God will still scream during a fatal car accident. Belief in religion has nothing to do with the natural survival instinct.

You’re trying to set up an idiotic no-win situation that has no bearing on reality.

Jaytreeman,

A fatal car accident is different. Could be a shock scare or just not wanting to be injured.

Belief in god has no bearing in reality.

Having said that, my grandfather outlived my grandmother by 10-15 years. On his deathbed, he was holding some marriage pictures. He was looking forward to seeing her. Guy believed 100%. Still makes me tear up thinking about it.

z00s,

“it’s different”

No, if a test has no possible win outcome, then it’s not a true test.

“Heads I win, tails you lose” is not proof of your ability to predict a coin toss.

Jaytreeman,

100% it's different.
Just because a movie has a jump scare it isn't necessarily a scary movie. There's a difference between some existential dread and 'boo'.
I'd argue that the accident is a startle response with body horror mixed in.
Some people are scared of death. Doesn't matter the cause. That's what I'm talking about. It's 100% different than a fatal car accident.

z00s,

By your logic, all Christians would commit suicide with a smile on their face.

Stop trying to straw man with unrelated metaphors

Jaytreeman,

You're starting to get it?
That the true believers aren't afraid of death. The believers that are scared at the concept of dying aren't actually believers at all.

z00s,

You don’t get it. Your “test” is not a fair test. Your making shit up to justify your feelings. You’re either 14 and think that you’re smarter than the rest of the world, or your just really, really stupid.

Either way I’m not going to continue arguing with a pigeon who thinks it’s playing chess.

Jaytreeman,

Resorting to insults when you can't get your point across in a reasonable way. My bet is you're a teacher.
Cheers

z00s,

I’m 14 and this is deep

SlopppyEngineer,

Roughly the rules are interpreted as if you spend your life in the service of somebody else or society you go to heaven. Of course, those in power see themselves as serving society because they give guidance. If you do things going against that, so disobey the leaders, you go to hell. It’s how they tried to keep the populace in line. The rest is window dressing.

southsamurai,
@southsamurai@sh.itjust.works avatar

Some of them are

I’ve been bedside at more deaths than I can accurately recall. Most of them followed some religion or another, and there were a dozen or so that expressed peace and/or joy at the thought of the afterlife promised to them. Some of the others hoped it would be there, but expressed it with some degree of fear or doubt. The rest were honestly either not in their mind at all, or were otherwise unable to communicate towards the very end.

Christians, most of them, for what that matters. Three Muslims that I recall because you don’t find many here in the rural south. All of them were awake and alert towards the end, and expresses still having faith, though they seemed to focus more on making their last days be about saying goodbye. No clue if that was them as individuals, or a facet of Islam in their lives.

The ones that were the most outright joyous were what you might call a bit obsessed with their religion, but it didn’t seem to stay along denomination lines with the caveat that Catholics aren’t much better represented here than Muslims, so protestants made up the majority of my religious patients, period.

Only ever had one Hindu patient that was dying, and he never mentioned it at all. He just wanted to cuddle with his wife and enjoy good food.

But shit, one the happiest people I ever sat with as they were dying was a secular humanist. Dude was all about going out with a smile. Kept himself just high enough to feel no pain, and was otherwise essentially partying until the cancer made that impossible. Then it was just enough medication to keep pain minimized while allowing him to be aware and able to talk. But he said he was happy with his life, and expected death to be a welcome cessation of the bullshit that comes with a body.

I think the most “impressive” Christian I sat with was an retired evangelical preacher. Despite his religion, the guy was very zen about it. “The Lord will reach down for me when it is time. I’m just going to enjoy what I have until then, and praise his name with my last breath.” But it wasn’t some kind of crazy thing, it was said very calmly, very matter-of-fact. He shrugged a little when he said it, like it was no big deal when he went.

That guy was of one of my favorite patients tbh. We’d go walking, and just chat about whatever our minds brought up. Wasn’t always deep stuff, sometimes it would just be swapping stories about ourselves. Never preached at me, not once, and I had let him know I was essentially atheist, but also Buddhist despite that. You’d think a retired preacher from the kind of church he was in would be all up my ass, but he never even hinted at that kind of thinking.

I came late to when he was passing. It was late at night, and he was a morning patient for me. He was pretty much non verbal the last two days, but he would reach out to people you hold their hands, and smile.

Some people really, truly believe. They can believe so deeply that death is either a momentary inconvenience between them and their afterlife, or is a very welcome gift from god. There’s no doubt in them, no fear, but also no desire to accelerate it.

Anyway, it’s obvious that nobody can speak for the billions of religious people in the world totally. Even as many deaths as I saw are a drop in an ocean of death. But it’s certain that religion can bring about what you’re asking.

akakunai,

I don’t really have anything to add, but thanks for writing this. It’s quite insightful.

fsxylo,

Religion has always been a compromise on logic. It’s whatever in fairy land.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

So this turned into a bit of a rant and while it's likely nobody cares I'll post it anyway.

I don't know about Christianity but at least in Islam this isn't how it works. So there's a hadith that says that death is the worst of what comes before it and the easiest of what comes after it, because the day of judgement is just that bad. There's another that says that in the day of judgement it will be so hard that people will want Allah to start it even if they go to hell. No matter how much you think you've been a good person it's not at all something to look forward to. And that's not counting how even as a Muslim depending on what you did in your life, you could go to hell, spend a certain time there according to your sins in life and then go to heaven. Again not something most people want to find out, especially because Islam teaches that with the exception of prophets everyone sins and that we all need Allah's forgiveness and mercy to go to heaven. The kind of arrogance it'd take to actually hope for death because you're confident you're going to heaven can in fact be the reason you go to hell. A devout Muslim will never think "oh I've been really good in life I can't wait to die and go to heaven".

Then we get into how in the day of judgement people will have mountains of good deeds and mountains of bad deeds and people's (temporary; again all Muslims will eventually go to heaven) fate will be decided over a single good or bad deed. Most people thinking seriously about the afterlife will want to live as long as possible to do good deeds and beg god for forgiveness for their bad deeds. Again, no sane Muslim will think "yep, I'm doing alright, death please".

Crackhappy,
@Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

I grew up in the largest muslim country, and I never knew that. I’m a devout atheist, but this is helpful to frame the thoughts others have.

pineapplelover,

I’ve asked a number of religious guys what happens if you kill infants, would they go to heaven? If so, why don’t we since that will result in eternal happiness without all the life suffering and risk going to hell.

One person (Catholic) told me, the babies would go to heaven if they were baptized and then killed. The other person (Christian) told me they can’t determine this because they’re not God.

Ludrol,
@Ludrol@szmer.info avatar

As far as I am aware infants would go to heaven (regardless of being baptized) but the person doing the killing would sin.

Relieving someone from temporary suffering just to suffer eternally isn’t a good trade off.

Crackhappy,
@Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

Someone told me that sheep go to heaven, and goats go to hell. But don’t quote me on that.

open.spotify.com/track/4G8Eu3EDQZYhHPfJMFCv8V?si=…

user224,

So why are they so much against abortions?
They may believe the doctor and mother will go to hell, but they surely don’t care about those two.

rufus,

Yes. At the same time some aren’t that sure or scared of death. And the rules are that detailed that lots of people have committed some kind of offense and can’t expect to go to heaven for sure.

Also the bible has implemented some additional rules so you can’t take a shortcut to heaven… Suicide won’t do it because (surprise) it’s a sin… And generally speaking god is just testing you with this life. That’s kinda the only thing why it matters and why you would want to behave and live it like he intended.

Also there is martyrs, suicide cults etc taking that shortcut straight to heaven.

Ferris,

I thought this was how you summarize current inaction against climate change.

Flax_vert,

Yes. I am excited to escape this evil world and finally be with God where I won’t suffer any more. I am excited for Christ to come back and destroy all evil in this world as well. Maranatha!

BruceTwarzen,

Lol

Nemo,

You know not all of us believe in an afterlife, right?

Axle182,

When I was in primary school with mandatory religious education this is how I saw it

Bridger,

No, they’re scared shirtless of death. They know despite the self righteous facade that they are shitty human beings and expect to find themselves in hell.

Kowowow,

For me outside of the natural scariness of it if your not into reincarnation then this is yout only chance on earth and hevon may be good but I’m not done yet getting my own personal kind of high score

shinigamiookamiryuu,

Jesus’ verses to us about life being a gift resonate here. The duties we have aside that may shift the balance, it’s too unique an experience to say Heaven surpasses it in gift status. I wish I enjoyed mine more though, I’m more indifferent to it.

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