fuck the manosphere

I just want to vent a bit - I started seeing someone a few weeks ago. Old fling that I ran into through some friends that got rekindled, and I was excited that it seemed like more than just casual hookups this time. But there were some yellow flags I ignored that turned out to be red flags, and now I’m feeling frustrated and hurt.

Dude for real dropped the line that men are more “capable” and “logical” on me. That gender studies are “indoctrination.” I told him we should probably stop seeing each other if that’s really what he thinks. It wouldn’t be logical for me to keep seeing someone that thinks lesser of me, now, would it?

I’m grateful to have some guy friends that I turned to after I left, cuz I wanted to go into “fuck all men” mode, but I know it’s not true or helpful. Just like there are women out there that have internalized misogyny, there’s feminist men, enbies, etc. We’re all just people and we’re not monoliths beholden to differences in biology. This is just sexist, manosphere bullshit in particular

Anyway. I’m still feeling angry and wanted to put it out there for some support and solidarity. Anyone have a recent win they’d like to share or something?

ETA: Thank you so much for the conversation y’all! I’ve been trying to keep up but I gotta get some sleep. I’ll check in later but hope everyone has a good day. Keep up the empowerment! 💜

TeaHands,
@TeaHands@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t know where they get this idea that treating women as lesser is somehow attractive*. I had one once tell me that I was lucky to have a pretty face because my body would put most men off, and then he expected to get laid. Like, what? My dude that is not how any of this works.

But experiences like this help us learn to spot those red flags earlier. And frankly it can also be a self-esteem boost, like you clearly respect yourself enough to have kicked this guy to the curb and that’s something to feel great about! You know you’re worthy of better and that you didn’t bring this on yourself. Meanwhile he’s just got another in probably a long line of romantic failures that are entirely of his own doing.

Have to admit, and I don’t mean to pry, but I am SO curious how he responded when you laid it out logically for him like that.

Anyway, solidarity. So much solidarity.

  • well ok, I do know. but it’s very very silly.
Pons_Aelius,

I don’t know where they get this idea that treating women as lesser is somehow attractive*.

Quite simply, men like this are not looking for a partner, they are looking for a servant they can fuck.

They have not progressed past adolescent dominance games.

Good on Op for walking away.

ladicius,

They have not progressed past adolescent dominance games.

Amen to that.

Very_Bad_Janet,

Or they are just looking for a repository for their negative feelings. Their own personal dumping ground, if you will. It's great that these men (and it's not just men) expose themselves with flat footed negging early on.

sadreality,

Pick better men?

Pons_Aelius,

Most of these arseholes don't reveal themselves on the first date. They bide their time and only show their true colours a but at a time. They know on some level that their views are shit, hence the deception.

lorty,
@lorty@lemmy.ml avatar

A lot of the PUA routine is about putting women down, so they think saying that sort of shit is cool.

cedarmesa,
@cedarmesa@lemmy.world avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    richieadler,

    This reads like incel copypasta.

    wildwhitehorses,

    It is over the top but unfortunately i have seen it with my old friends and certainly coworkers. Especially the really lonely desperate women all flock to the louder, flamboyent type men. I think it is simply that they want someone who gives them attention, loudly. This way they feel loved and everyone knows that they are loved, unfortunately everyone else can see these men for what they are.

    cedarmesa,
    @cedarmesa@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    JoeBigelow,
    @JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca avatar

    Have you considered that you might suffer a bit of confirmation bias? Honest question, not trying to put you down. I just don’t see lots of those guys in relationships myself, and women in my area are pretty aware of their toxicity.

    cedarmesa,
    @cedarmesa@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    agent_flounder,
    @agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

    You know what I see?

    I’m married. 20 years. I do my best to be good to her and vice versa. All but one of our married friends are decent men and women that treat each other well. The one exception is a guy who was always a total dick and sloughed off his responsibilities as a dad and husband. Pretty sure he has some kind of anti social personality disorder. The divorce was and bitter. Fuck that asshole. They married really young.

    Anyway. The point is, my anecdotal experience is very different from yours. Good healthy relationships aren’t possible with manosphere dickheads.

    Yeah they might attract some women, the ones that have some big issues to work on. Nobody who has healthy self esteem is going to put up with that shit.

    So what does that tell you about how well girls are treated growing up? There are way too many traumatized girls growing into traumatized women. I’ve read and heard so many stories of women having to sort themselves out so they can stop dating these shit bags.

    The assholes may prey on vulnerable women but in the end those guys are going to be on their Nth failed marriage and bitter and never point the finger at themselves.

    Meanwhile the relatively decent guys usually find someone and manage to build an actual life together with that person based on mutual respect and partnership. I’ve seen it over and over and over again.

    Also every man likely has things to learn about regarding sexism. I did and I will always be learning more. I wished I had known in my teens what I know now. We are all steeped in this sexist, racist, competitive, exploitative culture and even if we don’t want it to, some of that poison infects lur own thinking. It’s inescapable. But it’s also something we can recognize and fight too.

    Also, no, half the country isn’t assholes. Just less than half that actually vote. So maybe 1/3.

    cedarmesa,
    @cedarmesa@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    agent_flounder,
    @agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m in suburbs in Colorado.

    squiblet,
    squiblet avatar

    One key to understanding the relationship success of coal-rolling MAGA idiots is that women are not automatically more intelligent, aware, mature or sensitive themselves. Some may find they’re unhappy with a partner like that but it’s just as likely they prefer it because they are the same way themselves.

    captainlezbian,

    Yeah but those women tend to be just as terrible

    DogMuffins,

    This doesn’t reflect my experience at all.

    ladicius,

    I’ve seen it. Not in that rigidness but I’ve seen a lot of women cling to idiots for too long (sometimes bizarre stories). There’s some truth to that post.

    cedarmesa,
    @cedarmesa@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    TeaHands,
    @TeaHands@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s interesting, I’m sure you’re right that this does work on some people and I have no evidence to suggest you’re lying about having personally seen it a lot. But as with other commenters, this just isn’t my experience at all. Thinking about my straight female friends, I can’t recall anyone going for a guy who even remotely resembles this. And thinking about my straight male friends, obviously none of them are like this at all otherwise they wouldn’t be my friends.

    For what it’s worth, I grew up super working class poor (dad worked down a coal mine) and a lot of my oldest friends are still in similar situations. Nowadays I also know a lot of quite well off middle class folks. But neither group would put up with this kind of behaviour from partners / friends / themselves. Whatever the difference is with your friend group, I don’t think it’s that.

    LinkOpensChest_wav,
    @LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.one avatar

    Nor mine. I’ve had a lot of women talk to me about their relationship goals, perhaps because I’m gay so they know I’m a disinterested third party. I’ve never had anyone confide in me that they like the company of abusive assholes. Quite the contrary, in fact.

    What I have noticed are a lot of guys who think they’re nice to women, but really aren’t. I’ve also seen men who project a completely fabricated persona to women, acting polite and caring, but being the most vicious untrustworthy backstabbers in the room – e.g., being extremely polite and civil to the woman, but then telling me they can’t wait to get into her pants, etc., the moment she’s out of earshot.

    captainlezbian,

    Exactly my experience though from the other kind of gay perspective. I’ll also add, a lot of the women who like assholes are abuse victims already. When you’re an abuse victim the early stages of abuse are comfortable and familiar. Add in things like love bombing and the thing with assholes often bring far more comfortable making moves

    kofe,

    I want to stress for anyone finding themselves in this pattern, healing is possible and there are often free or low cost services, especially with telehealth now more widely available and experts weighing in on social media

    I am an abuse victim, but I’ve had therapy on and off and have been in school for psych the last few years, throwing myself into understanding through as many outlets as possible. I may have fallen for this shit ten years ago. Now look at me slappin this shit down 😤

    And communities like this are so important, too! Building support groups so you aren’t isolated and being gaslit into further trauma.

    captainlezbian,

    Yeah I really second this. Being polyamorous and knowing most of my relationships won’t be lifelong I try to leave every partner better than I found her. I had an ex that was uncomfortable with the lack of abuse and sometimes lashed out over it, it was hard and contributed to the death of the relationship but she was healing, it was just a slow process. I’m currently in a long term relationship with a woman who grew up in an abusive household and married an abusive man as a teenager. But she’s currently married to a kind and wonderful man and she seems to think I’m also very good for her.

    And then there’s me, I have cptsd from my childhood but am happily married to someone who treats me right. Any reader who thinks they’re alone probably knows people who once were in this cycle and found their way out long enough ago that you don’t even realize they were there. And you aren’t beyond healing, nobody is.

    jjjalljs,

    What I have noticed are a lot of guys who think they’re nice to women, but really aren’t. I’ve also seen men who project a completely fabricated persona to women, acting polite and caring, but being the most vicious untrustworthy backstabbers in the room – e.g., being extremely polite and civil to the woman, but then telling me they can’t wait to get into her pants, etc., the moment she’s out of earshot.

    This, especially the first part, seems relevant. Like “I tip the starbucks girl every time why won’t she go out with me?” is a sad, common, energy. (Because she’s at work my dude. She has to be nice to you.)

    LadyLikesSpiders,

    select mates

    Where are you picking up that kind of lingo for human interactions, friend? Maybe it’s just a quirk of yours, but I only ever see this kind of language from incels and incel circles, and it’s not just the “mate” line, but the whole of your post

    So I’ll opine. You’re seeing something that’s confirming to a preconceived notion. Not gonna say there are no women who don’t like their bad boys or actually toxic people–god knows I know some of those women–but it is hardly the standard, and your anecdotal accounts mean you’re subject to things like social class and circles, culture, and region. Besides that, it could still be plainly untrue what you see, but its possible you are only even registering the women who fit this idea. There could be 20 women in happy, healthy relationships, but you’re not thinking about them. You’re only considering the woman in a toxic relationship, and when you try and recall the dynamics you know, only thos come to mind

    This is fairly common mindset for incels, red-pillers, that whole group. They’ll talk about how easy it is for women to have sex, but it’s because their idea of women is already “something to have sex in”, so they’re not open to the idea that there are plenty of women who do struggle with dating

    And besides that, who are you to judge the men they’re with? You say they’ll avoid 10 awesome dudes for [cavalcade of generic reactionary insults], but are those 10 dudes really awesome? You’re not dating them, nor do you have a woman’s lived experience to watch out for certain yellow or red flags that those men may clearly be displaying. Alternatively, maybe what makes an awesome dude to you is not actually what makes them awesome to women. Maybe the guys you’re calling bad boys aren’t as bad as you think, is what I’m saying

    Or yeah, maybe you’ve just seen and know a bunch of women who have made some poor choices. For whatever reason, it does happen, after all. Women are not immune to subscribing to ideas of toxic masculinity, and we can be vicious about it. We shouldn’t, but we can

    Juts try and make sure that whatever spaces you’re occupying, especially the kind you’re picking up that incel jargon from, you think critically about what they’re saying. It is so incredibly easy to get sucked into the manosphere

    kofe,

    Oh, that line I gave him about logic was one of the last things I said as I finished picking up my stuff to walk out the door. I followed up with “it’s been fun - good luck.” He had just kept digging in and I told him I’m not taking it upon myself to educate him. He can read a book or two about it

    Thank you for sharing your experience, though it fucking sucks. You’re right that I do feel empowered for recognizing my worth. Just hate that it’s coming from mistreatment, you know? Here’s to finding empowerment through healthy means and healthy partners 💜

    Pons_Aelius,

    Good on you for walking.

    I told him I’m not taking it upon myself to educate him. He can read a book or two about it

    As a guy who has seen several women friends fall for the "I can change him" mindset, well done. It is not your job to fix the world view of a person who does not want to.

    I remember an old joke:

    "How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?"

    'One, but the light bulb has got to want to change.'

    I know it sucks right now but at least he showed his cards early and you didn't have to waste too much time on him.

    kofe,

    I love the joke, thank you. I’m feeling excited to move on:)

    TheFriar,

    I’m curious what the yellow flags were. Did he lead you into the weird misogyny like systematically, trying to ease you into accepting it? If you remember anything he said where it might have suggested he had these feelings, I’d love to hear it.

    And before you feel bad or anything like that, we’ve ALL ignored yellow flags when we think something might go somewhere and we’re into it. It’s like biological lol

    kofe,

    Ok this turned into a novel, so buckle up I guess lol. Yeah, there was a lot said over the month that I pushed back on. There’s nuance to it though, right? It’s not like the manosphere content is built entirely on lies. Like, one of the first things that stuck out to me is him saying that when men lean into their masculinity then women can embrace their femininity. That can be true for some couples, but it’s obviously not universal and is more often fluid.

    He talked about his sister a few times, a psych major that I didn’t know identifies as non-binary until he showed me their Facebook page by chance and I saw their pronouns listed. But he didn’t care. He said they were “radicalized” after they went to college.

    Another one: “choices have consequences” when discussing abortion, even though he did agree it should be available, it’s just “morally gray” for him. His ex had one and he said he thought she secretly wanted him to push her to keep it. They broke up shortly after.

    Anyway, most of the rest of it was just sprinkled in, and culminated in the conversation yesterday. It actually started the night before, I got upset and wanted to shut down the conversation cuz it was all really building up, but we repaired, went to hang out with our friend, and it wasn’t until later it hit me he’d said that thing about men traditionally being the head of the household because they’re more capable “if you look at the results.” I dwelled on it forever after he fell asleep, journaled about it on my phone and had my responses ready the next morning.

    TheFriar,

    Wow. Well I’m sure he’ll make some woman soooo happy one day (I mean, “woman happy,” so cooking, cleaning, churning out progeny, etc.)

    TeaHands,
    @TeaHands@lemmy.world avatar

    Here’s to finding empowerment through healthy means and healthy partners 💜

    Hear, hear! I read your other replies and am glad you’re feeling motivated to keep going. It’s hard sometimes, but it’s worth it when you find the right person.

    originalfrozenbanana,

    Fuck yeah lol you’re a badass. I would stammer something about needing to go and think of all that in the shower later.

    kofe,

    To be fair, it started the night before and I stayed up journaling on my phone for a while after he fell asleep 😅

    Very_Bad_Janet,

    So funny that he didn't see the logic at hiding his misogynistic world view. The point, i guess, was not to school you on logic but to test how much crap you'd put up with.

    I hope he actually took a moment or two of self reflection and understands that he himself was not displaying much logic in the relationship. Who knows, maybe he'll even question one or two of his misogynistic beliefs.

    I'm sorry you had to put up with that but at least you've learned what to look out for.

    ahal,

    I just want to say that your break up line was just excellent. Chef’s kiss

    afraid_of_zombies,

    You are allowed to get annoyed at an entire gender. Just get annoyed then calm down then move on. Never judge yourself for an intrusive thought. Judge yourself based on what you actually say and actually do.

    And good for you for moving on.

    crashoverride,

    I’m a dude, what is the manosphere?

    JackLSauce,

    Andrew Tate subscribers, people who say “red pilled” a lot and dudes who attribute their lack of admiration from others to their height

    Hard to give exact but that should put you in the ballpark

    anarchy79,
    @anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Aleric,

    Confidently stated bullshit followed by a pathetically weak insult, ending with yet another unintentional admission of your ignorance? Looks like the manosphere is leaking again. What are the odds?

    kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Aleric,

    Hey look guys, it’s a moron!

    kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    HerbalGamer,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    You know, I’m something of a man myself…

    …and that dude’s a dick.

    dil,

    Ugh this shit makes me so MAD!! I’m sorry you had to experience that, and I’m proud of you for recognizing the warning signs and leaving.

    Yeah sure, it’s not all men, but it sure seems like all women (that date men) have dealt with this garbage to the point where they have to constantly be on the lookout for these same shit. And these guys know that it’s a problem, so they hide it and each flag you see isn’t necessarily red (cause maybe he’s just oblivious/misinformed/joking/whatever), and you need to keep a list of these maybe-problems and make a determination if is the one that means all these other things were actually red flags. Also - everyone is excited and thinks their partner is the best at the beginning of a relationship, and it’s hard to identify a red flag when you’re wearing rose-colored glasses.

    “Schrodinger’s douchebag” is the guy who says something problematic, then decides whether it was a joke depending on the reaction he gets. Women collect a bunch of Schrodinger’s red flags, that only become glaringly red when you already know the guy’s a dick.

    I’d HIGHLY recommend the book “Why does he do that” for both men and anyone who dates men. The author works with abusive men, and discusses the root causes of the problematic behavior that so many women experience. TL;DR: Men have deep-seated expectations for how their partner should behave and make them feel, and deviations from those expectations are met with anger. I’m not abusive, but reading it helped me identify similar thought patterns that I had, and I’m a better partner for it.

    I think there’s a seed of truth in “fuck all men” since all men ARE exposed to problematic worldviews and the “traditional” set of expectations for a relationship are patriarchal. Yes, there are exceptions, but “men” as an abstract group hold those views, and FUCK those guys.

    thisbenzingring,

    Just yesterday I was telling a female coworker about how toxic masculinity is such a hard thing to recognize for men and even more difficult to overcome. The example was how the two guys who hold a senior IT position were always fixing problems in a vacuum and not sharing with others how it was fixed or what the problem was. And how that is hurting the whole group.

    I absolutely disagree with your guy friend and I am sorry that it worked out like it did. Good for you for making the right choice. I hope you find a much more healthy relationship soon :)

    bartolomeo,

    The men I have met that either endorse or handwave-away toxic masculinity are really fragile and often have so many other problems in their lives that maintaining any kind of relationship is impossible, even with other toxic-masculinity-type guys.

    LadyLikesSpiders,

    The manosphere is so sad. I sorta hate how fascinated I am by it, and it seems like it is so incredibly easy for men to get sucked into it. I’ve seen guy friends go down that path, and I never would have predicted it. I’ve heard from other guy friends who crawled out of it that I never would have even expected it

    Sorry you went through that, but better seeing that shit sooner rather than later. I really don’t know how anyone can think “I bet if I told them they were just naturally dumber than me, they’d think it was hot.” Clearly men are not all that logical if they keep falling for manosphere bullshit XD

    You know your worth, so you just keep chugging along. Having no man is better than having a bad man

    jjjalljs,

    Glad you dodged this bullet.

    I had a coworker-friend who was too into right wing Internet stuff, and trying to deprogram him was hard work. People spend hours soaking up glossy garbage and find communities of like minded people. I think I only made any progress at all with that guy because we were already friendly over work and video game shared experiences.

    The guy from your post is probably on some “manosphere” website complaining about how his misfortune right now. Maybe one day he’ll realize he’s the primary architect of his poor outcomes.

    captainlezbian,

    That’s fucking rough. The manosphere is such a sad thing because it’s con artists and assholes profiting off selling men the idea that they can be worse people. Nobody is actually happier enforcing patriarchy, it’s just that shedding it can be uncomfortable and difficult.

    I will second that there are great feminist men out there. My metamour is an amazing guy who doesn’t tolerate any toxic masculinity or misogyny and clearly tries to lead by example on the front of being masculine as fuck in a healthy and positive way.

    SpudNoodle,
    SpudNoodle avatar

    Nobody is actually happier enforcing patriarchy, it’s just that shedding it can be uncomfortable and difficult.

    This is such a great line. It works for any toxic worldview/belief system.

    GentlemanLoser,

    The Internet lets all the village idiots find each other

    staindundies,

    But it also lets us all find each other

    HerbalGamer,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    yeah that’s what they said

    Ragerist,
    @Ragerist@lemmy.world avatar

    It even let’s the village idiots, of village idiots find each other.

    whodatdair,

    So bizarre, the internet has just opened so many stupid people to various forms of grifters, but the toxic masculinity crowd are the absolute worst. Sorry your old friend turned out to be a turd. Glad you’re smart enough to recognize it and move forward with your life.

    You’ll find someone kind and worthwhile - just takes sifting through a fuckload of hay before you find the needle. Unfortunately you found a worm instead of hay this time - gross, but just toss it to the side and keep searching. 💜

    Tbh for me it’s been hard to keep putting energy into it, every time I break up with someone else I just feel like all that energy was wasted which is stupid because I definitely learn things from each relationship but god damn I just wanna find my human. ffs. Ngl I turned 30 and was just like well either I grow some thick skin and get on with it or I’m gonna fuckin die alone lmao. So easy to just give up after a shitty breakup and just be single… Idk, no lesson there - just sharing.

    You asked for wins so here’s mine - I’ve been in a relationship with someone for about 3 months now and signs are good even post honeymoon-period. She actually cares and doesn’t have gender expectations of me at all, which is refreshing because I work somewhere that I’m basically expected to be masculine and it’s nice to get to be the little spoon occasionally and not have to put on a stupid mask of projected confidence and stoicism I feel like I have to at work. She doesn’t judge me if I cry a little. We both go out of our way to do nice things for each other and it actually feels like it might be a legit partnership - I’m cautiously optimistic this time! ☺️

    NAK,

    If it helps, those guys treat other guys the same way.

    Also if it helps there are women who treat other people this way too.

    This seems akin to racism to me. My favorite quote about this is from President Lyndon B. Johnson. “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”

    My dad isn’t this kind of guy, but he is an old white guy that watches Fox News. And it’s the same thing with them. He has bought any number of supplements advertised on Fox News, and believes wholeheartedly that one day the world will finally understand the deep wisdom he believes in.

    I don’t believe you can categorize people as a simple either or. “You’re a red piller or not.” “You’re a conservative or a liberal.” But I do think you can apply a personality type to people. And it sounds like you sussed out a guy who really needs to feel superior to other people. I fucking hate those kind of people. So good for you, there are a lot of people who may have never figured it out, or weren’t socially aware enough to see it. It sucks this turned out to be what it was, but celebrate the fact you’re a strong enough person not to put up with it

    AnarchistArtificer,

    That’s a good quote. And by good, I mean helpful in understanding the cycle of assholery.

    BarrelAgedBoredom,

    You may already know about this but your description of sexism as akin to racism made me want to mention intersectionality. It’s an analytical framework used to describe social relations as it pertains to privilege and discrimination. There’s a good reason you felt that way. Many feminist theorists pose that most/all forms of oppression (racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, etc.) are modeled after misogyny, which is considered to be the original form of oppression

    OnU,

    Thank you for your comment. I’ve heard of intersectionality but didn’t quite understood the idea behind it, as it was only in passing mentioned.

    Now watching a talk by Kimberlé Crenshaw

    bufalo1973,
    @bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

    I’d go a step further: all is modeled after power. If you feel* you have more power it’s because the other part is “less than you”, not because you both have different strengths.

    *Feel, not that it’s real.

    BarrelAgedBoredom,

    Everything I wrote is about ways systems exercise coercive/domineering/oppressive power. They’re not modeled after power, they’re a consequence of heirarchies and the inherent power imbalances that are necessary for hierarchical power structures to maintain their existence

    tigeruppercut,

    Many feminist theorists pose that most/all forms of oppression (racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, etc.) are modeled after misogyny

    Could you possibly give a brief synopsis of why they think misogyny is the base model rather than (eg) racism? Considering many countries afford rights to different races before women (eg black men could vote in the US before women) it does make sense, but I’m curious about the basic theory.

    S_204,

    Patriarchal society developed before the concepts of race we use today. Much of how society was shaped stemmed from the tribes and clans of the pre modern era.

    tigeruppercut,

    How pre modern are we talking? Because it seems like homo sapiens vs neanderthal would’ve had more cross cultural discrimination than men and women within the same species.

    WldFyre,

    Because cultures made up exclusively of one race were still misogynistic. And because there’s actual physical differences between the sexes that are used to wrongly justify discriminating against women.

    tigeruppercut,

    A monoculture being misogynistic doesn’t really show that the base model is misogyny. It seems like you’d have to have a culture with mixed races early on that discriminated against women before other races to decisively prove the point.

    WldFyre,

    It seems like you’d have to have a culture with mixed races early on that discriminated against women before other races to decisively prove the point.

    Your previous comment:

    Considering many countries afford rights to different races before women (eg black men could vote in the US before women) it does make sense

    I assumed you understood your own point that you made, so I’m not sure what you’re asking for now.

    BarrelAgedBoredom,

    Others have already answered your question but I thought I’d leave you with an article about it in case you want more information. There’s a lot more to be said on this than a few comments and the odd article but it’s a good enough place to start

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