Establishing a new Fediquette

Old habits die hard, but there’s Reddiquette which needs to be revived, and some which needs to die.

Many “golden-age” redditors remember a time when downvoting was reserved for hostility, not a different opinion. For the sake of our growing community I would like to implore everyone to be awesome to each other.

However, this place is not Reddit.

  • We don’t measure in bananas here.
  • We don’t need to append “edit: typo” to edited posts and comments.
  • if you see something which is worthy of a downvote: down vote and move on! Don’t engage with it and feed the algorithm so other people are exposed to it.
RomanRoy,
@RomanRoy@lemmy.world avatar

I like the “edit:” append if I edited something, just to make it clear for whoever comes later.

What’s the problem with it?

SkyNTP,

I only agree with two rules: be awesome to each other (if in kind) and downvote is not a disagree button, it’s a troll button.

Dictating other rules, like the use of the edit keyword or how to measure scale of something… Is not awesome.

BraBraBra,

Listen, I’ll measure with a fucking banana if I feel like it, okay. Don’t tell me what to do pal.

OptimisticPrime,

Marking edits with “edit” is fine by me, just don’t use ETA for that…

Atheran,

Alright, a question for you all about down voting. Is the platform, or the apps made for it take it into account for feeds?

ie, if I down vote everything I don’t like seeing does it get removed from my feed? If so I’d just down vote and move on. If not, I’d probably not down vote, but even if I did, I’d feel like I need to give a reason behind it for the poster to know.

Shauru,

It’s not as personal as that. Down voting just means that the post/comment will be further down if you’re sorting by ‘top’. The more upvotes the closer that thing will be to the top of the page. It’s not just for you, it’s for everyone. If that makes sense?

Atheran,

Right, got it, thanks a lot. I’ll stop downvoting in that case, except if something is really offensive.

biddy,

I don’t believe there’s any instance with an algorithm, so no. In the future someone might launch an instance with an algorithm like that.

lunaticneko,

My take for the fediverse would include:

  • Again, downvote not for disagreement but for content that clearly does not contribute to the discussion. Reason should not be given, as downvoting should be done sparingly and should not require a reason (for most sane human beings).
  • Be aware when interacting cross-instances. Culture, norms, and rules may differ.
  • Unless the instance operator is fine with it, limit your self-content sharing and self-promotion.
  • Remember that most of the fediverse instances are independent and they owe you nothing. The instance operator’s decisions are final.
  • Do not squat names on multiple servers unless it’s what you generally have been using.
  • Cats are still the supreme beings. The fediverse resides on the Internet (assuming that it runs on TCP/IP), so the cat supremacy rule applies.
ikidd,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

Cats are corner-pissing vermin. Fite me.

Bristlecone,

Wrong!

lunaticneko,

HISSSSSSSSSSS

chickenwing,

if you see something which is worthy of a downvote: down vote and move on! Don’t engage with it and feed the algorithm/engament machine so other people are exposed to it when sorting by active.

Disagree. You should politely state why you disagree. Engagement is good for newer websites like lemmy and you don’t need to be rude or combative to disagree. One of my issues with reddit is when people would get downvoted for making a fair point or observation.

Zozano,

I really should have clarified this because it seems like a contradiction for me to state that down voting is bad, and to say that when you see something worthy of a downvote, downvote and move on.

When I say worthy of downvote, I don’t mean a disagreement. I’m talking about people being obviously toxic. If malicious people want a reaction, giving it to them is not productive.

For example, if I see a post about plant based meals, and a comment states “I’m not convinced that this is really helping the planet, I don’t see a problem with eating meat” - then engage politely.

But a post like “fucking vegans lol, I’m going to eat 2 steaks tonight” is not worth replying to. Downvote and move on.

cwagner,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Zozano,

    Clarified here

    fediverse_report,

    I’m very curious as to what people’s view on etiquette is regarding submitting your own content. I write a weekly newsletter about the fediverse which is pretty relevant to this community for example. But I’m also quite aware of reddiquette thats pretty hesitant on submitting your own stuff, as it can get spammy really fast. Would love to hear.

    Pat,

    Personally, if it's good content I don't mind a little self promotion. People won't see what you made if you don't share it. Just don't post it to dozens of communities, that's when it gets way too spammy. Find one or two you think it would a good fit for and users would find relevant and share it there, as long as that community doesn't have any rules against promoting your own content.

    scutiger,

    I don’t see any problem with that, and posting a weekly update is far from spammy behavior anyway.

    fruitywelsh,

    To be honest building a edit history views makes more sense to me. This project is opensource we can do more than work around.

    Kolanaki,
    @Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

    What’s so wrong about using bananas for scale?

    Zozano,

    That’s their thing. You don’t take your new partner to the spot where you fell in love with your ex. That’s just weird.

    FartsWithAnAccent,
    @FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

    That seems like a weird comparison…

    Zozano,

    Hey, when a banana is involved with love, there is nothing weirder, and more beautiful.

    FartsWithAnAccent,
    @FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

    Not so sure about nothing weirder…

    Kolanaki,
    @Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

    I’d most certainly do that if that spot was simply a romantic location I enjoyed, and it wouldn’t be weird unless I also kept talking about my ex.

    Goun,

    “Look, honey, I know a spot that’s great, but we can’t go there because I used to go with my ex and I don’t like bringing up my ex everytime like my ex did, you don’t deserve that because you’re more than her”

    I think I’d feel weird even if she doesn’t know about it. I’d also probably avoid calling her by her name just in case.

    ada,
    @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    We don’t need to append “edit: typo” to edited posts and comments.

    I didn’t do that because it was reddit etiquette. I did it because people can see I edited my post, and I would like them to be able to see why

    Zozano,

    Why tell them you fixed typos? What’s the point?

    I’ve edited my comments for years to fix typos and clarify statments, and I never once had anyone accuse me of being disingenuous.

    And even if they did, that’s their, and their conspiratorial mind’s problem.

    ada,
    @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Because otherwise people don’t know why I edited the post. Did I change my opinion? Did I add some context or detail I missed the first time around? Or did I just fix a typo? A reason just makes it easy for people to have more context

    Zozano,

    That’s the thing though, it’s a paradox.

    Anyone who is considerable enough to use “edit:” for legitimate reasons would not be the people who would be deceptive and change their posts to reflect a new opinion.

    “edit: typo” is essentially just a defense against an imaginary accusation that you were being malicious.

    By all means, edit posts to include extra information as an appendage, but closing with “edit: added info” is not very helpful.

    ada,
    @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    You misunderstand. I’m not doing it so that people know that I made a legit edit, I’m doing it so people know what the legit edit I made is.

    but closing with “edit: added info” is not very helpful.

    Who is doing that or arguing for that? Vague edit descriptions aren’t terribly useful, and I’m not claiming otherwise…

    Zozano,

    Okay I get you. I thought you were literally typing “edit: typo”, as opposed to something like “edit: she was my sisters friend”

    I guess we both misunderstood each other lol. I wasn’t implying that was your argument, it’s just something I find annoying.

    ada,
    @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I mean, it depends on the context.

    Did I make a post, have a lot of people get upset because I worded my post poorly? In which case, a I might make a clarifying edit like “edit: she was my sisters friend” so that future people that see my post don’t get confused.

    Did I accidentally type “there’s” instead of “theirs”? I’d probably just edit it with “edit: typo”. Not because people care if I made a typo, but because I want people to know that it wasn’t the first type of edit

    Zozano,

    I agree the context is important, and the examples of rewriting large paragraphs justify clarification, both for new people and returning.

    But the original point I made was that you don’t need to post “edit: typo” here on Lemmy. We don’t have edited post/comment tags, so nobody would know if it’s just typos

    It’s really not that big of a deal anyway, I was just thinking of redundant examples of Rediquete to drum up the conversation.

    ada, (edited )
    @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Posts show as edited in many 3rd party apps and on other platforms

    Edit - And in Lemmy too!

    Zozano,

    /c/TIL

    ada,
    @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    FYI, I can also see an edit to your previous post too, directly in Lemmy!

    Zozano,

    Oh shit.

    PLEASE DON’T TELL ANYONE WHAT I CHANGED.

    It was a really embarrassing mistake and I’m sorry I ever said it.

    ada,
    @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    PLEASE DON’T TELL ANYONE WHAT I CHANGED.

    That part I can’t see. Only that you edited it :)

    Generator,
    @Generator@lemmy.pt avatar

    I’m an old age redditor, and that was may reddiquette, “don’t downvote just because you don’t like the topic, maybe other people find it interesting”.

    Mostly I don’t downvote at all, only on some rude or spam posts.

    Reddit just become something where everyone downvote everything for no reason, even if just say “OK” ou “that’s cool”!
    On Lemmy (ate least for now), not so much or I don’t see it.

    If you see a post “orange is the best color”, don’t downvote just because you don’t like orange, leave a comment and express your opinion instead

    PS: There’s an old Reddiquette song, the same can be applied to fediverse
    youtu.be/4fLpktf2jYw

    Zozano,

    Downvoting breeds toxicity. It’s regrettable that we are wired to feel validated and rejected by numbers, but if we admit that, we should understand that unnecessarily putting someone into the negative numbers ultimately hurts everyone.

    I really want Lemmy to cultivate a community which epitomises virtues of civility. Reserve down votes for uncivil behaviour.

    themachine,

    Seems like kinda a toxic way to start that. Why are you trying to dictate who should post what and how they do it? Maybe someone wants to measure in bananas. Maybe someone wants to clarify their edit. I don’t see the point of the post if you’re not looking to tease out anything but an unnatural result.

    Lemmy will be whatever the humans that make it will be.

    Zozano,

    This reply triggered an unhealthy emotional reaction in me. I interpret the tone as accusatory and leaves little room for a charitable interpretation of what I said. I don’t feel like I can respond to your criticism without arguing.

    WontonSoup,

    Showing the reason you edit a post isn’t dumb, its to give a valid reason so people don’t think you edited to make someones response look bad. Saying its for context, adding a word or whatever just shows you didn’t edit it maliciously.

    The whole “edit: thanks for gold and I can’t believe my most upvoted comment was about editing!” can go away for sure though

    Zozano,

    This argument never really made sense to me. Anyone who is being deceptive is not going to tell people they’re editing their comments.

    It’s the result of nothing more than a moral panic. There aren’t roving bands of keyboard warriors rolling around making comments and then editing them to make others look stupid.

    And even if there were, they could just include “edit: typo” and get away with it. Unless someone takes screenshots.

    I think it says more about the community that everyone is expected to prove their innocence. Let’s have a little faith in each other, we’re better than that.

    Treevan,
    @Treevan@aussie.zone avatar

    It makes sense to me and I’ve been editing comments this way since the early 2000’s. For some, it’s a cultural practice that’s probably decades old.

    If the platform didn’t state the comment was edited, I probably wouldn’t bother but if it does, there is always a thought at the back of the reader’s mind about what happened. Leaving a note about editing negates the thought. Leaving pointless edits less so.

    I find it more ethical and transparent, particularly in discussion threads where debates are being held.

    Zozano,

    I get it as a cultural thing, but it makes no sense epistemologically.

    An unethical person would not state they changed their comment, and a malicious person would state their edit was mundane. Those two factors alone render the practice of proving your innocence in advance moot.

    I think it’s sad that people reflexively assume the worst. I used to engage in some heated debates on Reddit, but I was never accused of, or assumed the other person edited their posts to make me look bad. It seems like paranoid behaviour to me.

    Strangely enough, if it became the norm to correct typos without stating it, the default assumption would be that the edit was a typo correction.

    Treevan,
    @Treevan@aussie.zone avatar

    I didn’t downvote you.

    I agree but like the premise of the argument is that there is trust issues, a edited reason makes it more trustworthy on a scale rather than nothing. I agree with that usually typos don’t require a reason but reddit? gave you 5? mins before an edited notification was placed on the comment for that reason.

    Bad actors are always going to act bad.

    I don’t even think downvotes need to exist to counter other aspects of the OP. I would rather a statement as to why this was a bad comment or post so as to make it a learning experience, an educational tool rather than a down arrow that could mean anything. I’ve been downvoted for adding relevant posts to the community I manage. What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Was it the content? Someone holding a grudge? What?

    Zozano,

    As I just replied to another user, paraphrasing this: downvotes might be perceived as the community self-policing, but if you visit r/vegan you’ll see how that can make a community hostile. I’m a vegan and I can’t fucking stand that place. If you have an alternative opinion, prepare to wind up on the top of controversial, where the mob has a field day.

    I think some sub’s had the right idea by limiting the lower voting karma to 0. Another downside is it essentially paints a target for the community before an individual has formed an opinion. It generate the hive mind we should be avoiding.

    Treevan,
    @Treevan@aussie.zone avatar

    In that case, downvotes should be invisible. The sorting algorithm can see them but people can’t.

    I don’t believe that tiny communities and instances should have them on until a threshold is reached and they become “sortable”.

    Being visible is an aggressive moderation tool. It doesn’t foster discussion. reddit devolved into downvote heavy as time went on and I hated it, most of the time it didn’t make sense why things were downvoted. They work better for memes and pics, not comments (unless they are horrible) and discussions. Bad actors use the downvote for bad acting.

    Zozano,

    I got nothing more to say, you hit the nail on the head.

    It reminds me of grading movies. If someone says to me its an 8/10, that is useless information. If they tell me it has some action, I’m intruged. Then they tell me it’s a Marvel movie, and I lose all interest.

    However, I will say that it was entertaining as fuck to see /u/spez’s comment karma tank - but he’s not really a member of the reddit community, just the warden hearing the prisoners shout “fuck you!” before starting a riot and a partial breakout.

    Treevan,
    @Treevan@aussie.zone avatar

    You’re being really thoughtful and this is a good discussion.

    I read through all the other comments and I’m disagreeing with a few other viewpoints from others pretending like aggressive downvoting/brigading is an individual’s problem.

    Perhaps a feature request to Lemmy could be an option. Rather than a binary choice.

    Votes as is, upvotes visible/downvotes not visible but measured, up/down not visible but measured, no downvotes, no votes at all.

    Discussion instances could work around what works best for sorting and discussion, general could work what’s best for them etc.

    Forums didn’t have upvotes for years and it worked just fine.

    Zozano,

    Its a much better discussion than the one I’m having elsewhere, that’s for sure. I sure do love being strawmanned. I was hoping it would be more than a week before I encountered this lol.

    Treevan,
    @Treevan@aussie.zone avatar

    That’s the problem with having an opinion.

    Are you bring downvoted heavily? That’s the only way I know to know if I agree with you or not.

    Zozano,

    I’m only slightly in the negative numbers. So you’re completely justified in starting from a place of skepticism.

    Come back later. Once I reach -5 you can be vindicated in knowing that you were right all along.

    Treevan,
    @Treevan@aussie.zone avatar

    It’s not about being right cause I don’t know what right is. The downvotes tell me if you’re wrong, that’s different. I can then feel safe.

    These posts are sarcasm, by the way. Dont start downvoting, people!

    Zozano,

    You’re absolutely right. When the upvotes are high on a post I have a different opinion about, that just means they’re all suffering from mass delusion.

    These posts are NOT sarcasm. These are sincerely held beliefs and would (and will) be regarded as admissible evidence in court.

    Evoke3626,

    Holy shit agreed. The “thanks for le kind gold stranger” shit makes me want to fucking cut my throat. Some shit im begging to stay on leddit. All the shit on /r/circlejerk for example.

    Edit: le thanks for the gold kind stranger

    wandermind,

    I think it’s polite to tell what you have changed when you edit a post as long as the platform does not have edit history visible (which as far as I can tell Lemmy does not).

    reclipse,
    @reclipse@lemdro.id avatar

    If you add more context to your comment then sure mention it. But I don’t think it’s required for typos.

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