Because we can’t afford our own lives, how are we supposed to support children? Not even taking into account for how absolutely fucked we all are. Our planet is dying, how can we bring children into this world if it’s all falling apart?
Man, fuck them negative votes. Humans do best understand pressure. We need humans to solve this crisis because, humans manufactured it. We make more humans and roll the dice.
Pure selection bias. You primarily hear about the humans who did well under pressure, because the humans that didn’t do well rarely make for popular reading material.
We make more humans and roll the dice.
I would argue that by the time a child born today is old enough to participate in the solution, the dice will have already landed. Either they’ll be living in a city/country/planet whose prior generation has positioned themselves to preserver, or they’ll be dying in one whose prior generation didn’t.
Having more kids won’t solve the problem. We’ve got 8B people already. One more or less won’t tip the scales.
Not having more kids won’t solve the problem, either. So no point in getting mad at folks who did choose to have children.
My parents set the house on fire, I’m looking for a fire extinguisher, and some newsie wants me to know that if I just had kids they could grow up to be firemen.
I don’t think that’s what is being said at all. I think what’s being said is that if the future belongs to the next generation, it’s in all of our interests that intelligent and responsible people do not simply give up and allow the idiots to dominate the future. In other words, we all have a stake in the coming generations and simply opting out because we find it somehow inconvenient is not a moral decision.
This is not to say that we all need to have kids, but rather, is to say that we shouldn’t necessarily fault those who do choose to have them. Again, if the children are our future, it would be nice if at least some of them were raised by responsible, intelligent and well-educated parents.
intelligent and responsible people do not simply give up and allow the idiots to dominate the future
That would ring truer if not spoken by an idiot who dominates the present. CNBC is replete with these know-nothing goobers, and even assuming I bought in to their selective breeding strategy for repopulation after the apocolypse, I sure as hell wouldn’t endorse their target audience to handle the job.
This is not to say that we all need to have kids, but rather, is to say that we shouldn’t necessarily fault those who do choose to have them
That’s fair on its face, but more as a practical consequence. At some point you have to ask, what would we even do about people having more kids than we’d like. And the answers - from trying to shame them by screaming at them to doing old school Nixon-era sterilizations of whole populations - are incredibly grim and gross.
it would be nice if at least some of them were raised by responsible, intelligent and well-educated parents
If you want responsible, intelligent, and well-educated parents tomorrow, you’re going to need to house and feed and educate and generally provide quality of life for kids today.
But we hate kids today. That’s why, despite the economy growing at a steady clip for the last 20 years, we’re at record high child poverty with 1 in 5 kids living in poverty in the 40 richest countries. The current generation does not want to pay money to see them grow up health, strong, and capable.
Given the poor treatment they’ve received, why would Zoomers be expected to have lots of kids of their own? They have known nothing but declining standards of living, with a promise of worse to come.
What an asshole thing to do. Hey we had fun using up this planet now here, we made you to clean up up the mess. That’s what AI and robots are for. Not humans.
I mean a lot of us wouldn’t even if it they paid us. We finally live in a time where we know better and can choose not to be barefoot and pregnant (unless you live in tx).
Because those dots are countries (with vastly different social and economic structures) not people. The people in the lower-income countries probably don't depend on money in their lives as much as people in richer countries do. Your source also lists other reasons.
Also I'd say go back in time here in the US and you'd see something similar here with farm families, but that makes less sense now when land/housing is expensive and giant expensive machinery (that you probably wouldn't trust anybody else with) does much of the work. That and 100 other factors that make it not work like that.
The person you’re responding to seems singularly determined to ignore the legally-empowered social construct of borders to a point it seems ideological.
Weaker, also if you look at the same source with a graph of 2005-2021 you will see that it's going down faster for below-poverty-level the most (bringing them closer together, 95/70/45 in 2005 to 72/60/46 in 2021). I also don't think it's a coincidence that the peak of this graph (before it starts falling for all-but-the-richest) is in 2008.
But also I think this data would probably look different if people living in multi-generational households (or otherwise having family who provide free childcare) was taken into account (which is to say that people aware they have no support will be more reluctant to have kids). On a different note, income alone is leaving out other important factors like the cost-of-living/housing in their area.
This is copy paste from your replies elsewhere in the thread. F-off with your purposefully misleading comment. That just says more developed countries have less kids, which we know. That has nothing to do with internal trends.
This was actually the first comment I made and then copy pasted to the other one as it applies to both. Regardless, the internal trends are the same. Here’s a source for USA. Sorry if that doesn’t fit your worldview.
If having kids causes you to be poorer what would the results look like?
The reality is that the more kids you have the worse you are at capitalism: You can’t work as much, you can’t take on more demanding jobs and you’ll make life choices that are less lucrative to care for the kids.
Yeah but you also don’t get trashed at the bars every weekend and you live longer healthier life. It isn’t as clear cut as you are making it. I agree being a dad has hurt parts of my career but it has probably helped other parts.
Can only speak for myself, but thankfully I have no interest in more demanding, lucrative jobs to improve my stats in such a rigged and inherently evil game as modern capitalism.
Doing just well enough with a loving family sounds well-lived to me. They can keep their McMansions and rooftop wine tastings.
The source you linked tells that more developed countries have less kids, which is almost unrelated to how “affordable” having a child is, which infact have the opposite trend.
Thanks much better, however “Correlation does not imply causation” which is obvious in this case (and as the source itself say, the correlation is probably about education instead etc). The problem is much more complex and trying to explain it with a simple correlation is a bit naive, however you can’t deny how much of an economic struggle raising a kid is for the average income family…
I never claimed having kids wasn’t a financial endeavor. I’m just pointing out that people with more income have on average less kids… because they do. I didn’t suppose the cause of this correlation at any point. But yes, I’d agree education is a huge part of the cause of this correlation.
Choosing to not have children is becoming more and more accepted among younger people for a long variety of reasons, among them being climate and economy as well as “not going to ruin my body” and “well i just dont like children”
You pretty much nailed the entire reason for most of my friends and myself (mid to late 20s). We can all afford kids, but it’s just not something anyone desires except for one or two people in our group of 14.
Most of us don’t even dislike kids, but the thought of having our own is undesirable.
I feel the same way, but had already had my children at 21 & 23 before I got the chance to understand the options. I love them and don’t regret my choices, but I would have certainly had a life with different focuses.
I struggle to understand how people can get over how terrifying and unpleasant having children is. Kids can be okay, except when they aren’t, and that’s often.
It’s a life-changing experience that is unlike any imagining. I am a much better person for having had a kid. That said, I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant, which is just to say that it’s definitely not for everyone.
I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant,
That is absolutely baffling to me. I mean changing the first diaper alone would kill both those “Nevers” for me. Then I would imagine 20 times every day for at least 10 years there would be those feelings. Then when they drive. Then go to college. I mean do you ever worry about anything at all?
That is simply not true. Kids can teach you many things about yourself that you never knew you cared about. They open a part of this life you would never see otherwise. They are this thing that loves you no matter what and if you are a good parent you do not take that for granted and give it all you got.
I didn’t want any for many years for all the same reasons as many here. And it changed. And it’s great, for me. But if you choose not to or have doubts, don’t. It’s horrible for the kid.
Biology is bullshit. It’s not an excuse. It’s like saying segregation and greed are biology. Like rape and murder are. Negative things exist in our biology and creating other humans for one’s need to get high off of them is one of them i assure you will be widely recognized within the next decade.
You’re an idiot. There is no one creating other humans for a “asoteric high”. You’re own ego is your biggest flaw. Even if, you could convince someone to touch you without money exchanging you can’t prove with any certainty what the other party is thinking or motivated by. And even assuming so shows how stupid you are.
Shut up when you talk about things you don’t understand little boy.
Another thing that can happen is you can grow up able to see clearly that you’re an obligation for your parents they didn’t want. You feel like they’re always angry with you even if you’re perfectly behaved. Then they tell you they gave up their entire life for you, clearly bitter and regretting that.
There is a non zero chance I could make my kids feel this awful for existing, and that already would be a non starter. But on top of that there’s like 14 other reasons.
I’m not sure what you’re protesting about what I wrote. I didn’t attack you. I just don’t understand how people ignore all the anxiety they will certainly have with kids in addition to all the other additional anxiety if anything about the kid goes especially wrong.
Well this comment at least tells us something about how you might have felt when younger. I did not always see eye to eye with my parents but in the end, I felt like they loved me and the amount of happiness I experienced as a kid is almost immeasurable. I’m on team #nokids, but for a lot of people, the love they can experience through children is unique and powerful, and understanding that is not that much of a struggle for me.
My comment mentioned nothing about the positive sides to kids. They obviously exist. The point I was making is I am surprised so many people opt into the most anxiety I think you probably can opt into.
Fortunately we’ve had millions of years to evolve coping mechanisms for whatever anxieties we may feel as parents. Given that reproduction is key to life, you probably shouldn’t be as surprised as you are.
For millions of years we didn’t have birth control. We do now and that for sure is a huge factor. No one here is mad at you for having kids. I mean, if you don’t understand how some people find it scary that a small mistake equals a dead child , okay… I’m just on the opposite side of that feeling.
That’s the thing, having kids is a unique experience just like not having kids is a unique experience. Being an individual is fundamentally a unique experience. Yet this whole conversation gets wrapped up in normative language like this which clearly expresses social preference for the former.
When I hear someone say that having children changed them in a profound way, I don’t hear anything other than “climbing a mountain is profound” or “laying on the couch all day is profound.” There is uniqueness and profound cumulative existence baked into to every heartbeat, but apparently a lot of people have trouble with this simple idea.
It’s because your brain gets flooded with parenting hormones which give you superhuman delusion tolerance for the first few years. That’s why I’m always skeptical when people are like “it’s hard but I can’t describe how wonderful it is!”
Sure Ryan, that’s totally not just the brain worms talking, I’ll stick with dogs for my nurturing serotonin and I refuse to feel bad about it.
You shouldn’t feel bad about it. Do what you think is right for yourself. On the other hand, you should recognize that you have no idea what being a parent is actually like, which in a sense means that you don’t actually know what you are talking about. It’s life-changing and unlike any imagining.
Two wrongs doesn’t make a right. Then again I have no problem polluting and using up 2 hours of shower water and take tons of baths because others who never cared are doing it. So if you’re being selfish, sure, go ahead.
Neither, really. More like are choosing not to go into child debt. Having a kid costs more than having a house. Good for this generation for taking control of their reproductive decisions.
Of all my younger siblings/cousins/etc, the only ones with kids were accidents. Only I chose to purposely start a family, and that took me a decade of saving.
Quick math suggests that it takes about 2190 bananas to raise a child, with an average of 1 banana every 3 days. This cost does not incluce therapy sessions for the parents though, so is not a complete breakdown of the cost of raising a child.
No one should have a child unless they are willing to commit themselves to that child 100%. I have a daughter. She’s the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me. And if anyone willingly took substantially less effort than I’ve taken to try to raise her in a safe, healthy environment and prepare her for her future as best I can- fuck you, you should have worn a fucking condom.
Interesting/sad how simply due to circumstance, somebody’s absolute honest best at max effort/sacrifice can still be raising a kid in a favela.
Consider the top vs. bottom billion: I expect the latter half’s kids would appear neglected if they were suddenly transported to the former’s McMansions overnight.
That’s not to say the kisses and the love are any less, but the clothes and the education and the soccer practice? I’d bet certainly.
I hope within by two generations from now this kind of pondering is only possible from a historical perspective. The kids deserve it.
I also have kids and love them dearly. However I think that it is important that parents have their own interests and time for their own lives, independent of their roles as parents. Of course with very young children there’s barely time to sleep, but humans grow up quickly! 😄
people used to look at children as a way to pass on knowledge, culture, adn ofc, genes
nowadays our genes dont matter so much unless youre a super athlete or mega genius, so passing them on seems frivolous to many. then theres the interent, which houses knowledge on damn near everything. so i guess it makes sense why the desire to carry on would be outweighed at this point
Me too, kids made my life so much better, but oof I hate when people push their lifestyle on others, child free and natalist proselytizers can both fuck off. We aren’t going to run out of people, or get too many, you can see it adjusting even now. It seems so normal for people in a crowded world to want fewer kids, and slow birth rate is so much nicer than war or plague as a way to control population.
Generally, people that are less educated or with shitty values. It’s not about genetics; it’s about the perpetuation of bad culture. If I were to name some groups that typify this: religious fundies and under-educated rednecks.
It’s hard to have this argument without coming across as advocating for eugenics, but I completely agree. The fact that increasing women’s education is so strongly correlated with decreased population growth is not a coincidence.
The difference between a eugenicists and whatever the hell I am is that I think the solution is to educate more people, not to control their right to reproduce.
Right. There’s also a huge difference between taking measures that affect birth rates and actively rounding people up and culling them. Eugenics has got to be the most equivocated term in the English language. Except maybe god.
Because life is and will continue to be pretty good for a lot of people. I definitely think it will be for my kid. Also, Idiocracy. If all the good, thoughtful people take your attitude then every human will be an idiot or asshole, which is an utterly hopeless future. I get that hopelessness. I felt more or less as you do for a while. But there a good, noble reasons to have a family. It’s not so cut and dry.
I mean let’s set aside that the world is ending, my wife and I cannot even afford to buy our own apartment, both with very good careers. Unless I inherit several million from my parents I just can’t see myself providing a good life for a child here in Canada. They would be set up for failure…
You’re totally right in that majority of breeders are idiots (obviously you are not one) and that’s just another reason I don’t want to bring a child into this. I would have to homeschool them.
Well, it sounds like you have a lot of reasons to not have children. I think that’s maybe the great understated tragedy of the economic fuckscape we live in: that a lot of good people can’t afford to properly have a family. There’s still plenty of room for happiness though, and I wish you the best of it.
The US only has a positive birth rate because of immigration. It probably won’t be that long before we in the US follow Japan’s example and offer incentives for people to be parents. After all, if the R’s are feeling more that the "immigration is poisoning the blood of our nation and D’s are in favor of helping young people have kids, everything is in alignment for that to work.
There is. Not sure why advocating for eugenics set to comedy worked so effectively. Maybe we just plain suck.
IQ is pseudoscience bullshit. People in economies above basic farming have more kids due to religion or the expectation that they will make more money in the future, not because they are dumb. Additionally smart is sexy. If your goal was for more kids to be born all you have to do is make everyone follow religions that push for it or radically shift economic gains to the younger population. Given that religion sucks and we are not going to rebalance the money we are left with the situation we have.
I am a father. If you don’t want kids please please don’t have them. Whatever residual guilt or obligation you are operating under I ask you to purge from your system. The world has enough problems without bringing kids into it that you don’t want to raise. Being a parent is hard enough for people like me who want and continue to want to do it, I can’t imagine how much worse it will be for a person who doesn’t or didn’t want.
Yes it is true to one extent almost all parents are rising to the occasion. No one is fully ready and there is never a perfect time. But this is a retrocon. Just because you can figure out something and muddle through doesn’t mean you should have to be in that position to begin with.
Again please please do not reproduce if you are unwilling or unable to raise those kids. Leave the task to people who want to. If you still feel some guilt, for whatever reason, go look at some parent in your life and offer to help them with any little task. Even if it is just sitting on their couch playing with your cellphone while they can run out and buy groceries.
Honestly at this point there are only a handful of headlines that cover about 90% of news stories:
-Young people ‘choose’ lifestyle choice that was forced upon them by external conditions.
-Young people are ‘killing industry’ that they are not paid enough to even dream of participating in.
-Rich person/people found guilty of or admitted to enormous crime will go unpunished.
-Someones totally unqualified opinion on a subject that we’re reporting as news because they’re rich.
-World ending, shareholders rejoice.
FDR taxes the shit out of rich people so they had to re-invest the money into their companies or lose it to the government. That built a strong, industrialized America with good paying jobs. Ronald Reagan reversed everything and we’ve been in decline ever since. Still a huge number of poor people continue to vote Republican, against their country, and their own interests.
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