people used to look at children as a way to pass on knowledge, culture, adn ofc, genes
nowadays our genes dont matter so much unless youre a super athlete or mega genius, so passing them on seems frivolous to many. then theres the interent, which houses knowledge on damn near everything. so i guess it makes sense why the desire to carry on would be outweighed at this point
Honestly at this point there are only a handful of headlines that cover about 90% of news stories:
-Young people ‘choose’ lifestyle choice that was forced upon them by external conditions.
-Young people are ‘killing industry’ that they are not paid enough to even dream of participating in.
-Rich person/people found guilty of or admitted to enormous crime will go unpunished.
-Someones totally unqualified opinion on a subject that we’re reporting as news because they’re rich.
-World ending, shareholders rejoice.
FDR taxes the shit out of rich people so they had to re-invest the money into their companies or lose it to the government. That built a strong, industrialized America with good paying jobs. Ronald Reagan reversed everything and we’ve been in decline ever since. Still a huge number of poor people continue to vote Republican, against their country, and their own interests.
oh trust me, the right wing would LOVE to take your ability to choose to procreate out of your hands completely. Abortion for sure, but also the the night after pill and even birth control. slate.com/…/birth-control-is-next-republicans-abo…
Choosing to not have children is becoming more and more accepted among younger people for a long variety of reasons, among them being climate and economy as well as “not going to ruin my body” and “well i just dont like children”
You pretty much nailed the entire reason for most of my friends and myself (mid to late 20s). We can all afford kids, but it’s just not something anyone desires except for one or two people in our group of 14.
Most of us don’t even dislike kids, but the thought of having our own is undesirable.
I feel the same way, but had already had my children at 21 & 23 before I got the chance to understand the options. I love them and don’t regret my choices, but I would have certainly had a life with different focuses.
I struggle to understand how people can get over how terrifying and unpleasant having children is. Kids can be okay, except when they aren’t, and that’s often.
It’s a life-changing experience that is unlike any imagining. I am a much better person for having had a kid. That said, I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant, which is just to say that it’s definitely not for everyone.
I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant,
That is absolutely baffling to me. I mean changing the first diaper alone would kill both those “Nevers” for me. Then I would imagine 20 times every day for at least 10 years there would be those feelings. Then when they drive. Then go to college. I mean do you ever worry about anything at all?
That is simply not true. Kids can teach you many things about yourself that you never knew you cared about. They open a part of this life you would never see otherwise. They are this thing that loves you no matter what and if you are a good parent you do not take that for granted and give it all you got.
I didn’t want any for many years for all the same reasons as many here. And it changed. And it’s great, for me. But if you choose not to or have doubts, don’t. It’s horrible for the kid.
Biology is bullshit. It’s not an excuse. It’s like saying segregation and greed are biology. Like rape and murder are. Negative things exist in our biology and creating other humans for one’s need to get high off of them is one of them i assure you will be widely recognized within the next decade.
You’re an idiot. There is no one creating other humans for a “asoteric high”. You’re own ego is your biggest flaw. Even if, you could convince someone to touch you without money exchanging you can’t prove with any certainty what the other party is thinking or motivated by. And even assuming so shows how stupid you are.
Shut up when you talk about things you don’t understand little boy.
Another thing that can happen is you can grow up able to see clearly that you’re an obligation for your parents they didn’t want. You feel like they’re always angry with you even if you’re perfectly behaved. Then they tell you they gave up their entire life for you, clearly bitter and regretting that.
There is a non zero chance I could make my kids feel this awful for existing, and that already would be a non starter. But on top of that there’s like 14 other reasons.
I’m not sure what you’re protesting about what I wrote. I didn’t attack you. I just don’t understand how people ignore all the anxiety they will certainly have with kids in addition to all the other additional anxiety if anything about the kid goes especially wrong.
Well this comment at least tells us something about how you might have felt when younger. I did not always see eye to eye with my parents but in the end, I felt like they loved me and the amount of happiness I experienced as a kid is almost immeasurable. I’m on team #nokids, but for a lot of people, the love they can experience through children is unique and powerful, and understanding that is not that much of a struggle for me.
My comment mentioned nothing about the positive sides to kids. They obviously exist. The point I was making is I am surprised so many people opt into the most anxiety I think you probably can opt into.
Fortunately we’ve had millions of years to evolve coping mechanisms for whatever anxieties we may feel as parents. Given that reproduction is key to life, you probably shouldn’t be as surprised as you are.
For millions of years we didn’t have birth control. We do now and that for sure is a huge factor. No one here is mad at you for having kids. I mean, if you don’t understand how some people find it scary that a small mistake equals a dead child , okay… I’m just on the opposite side of that feeling.
That’s the thing, having kids is a unique experience just like not having kids is a unique experience. Being an individual is fundamentally a unique experience. Yet this whole conversation gets wrapped up in normative language like this which clearly expresses social preference for the former.
When I hear someone say that having children changed them in a profound way, I don’t hear anything other than “climbing a mountain is profound” or “laying on the couch all day is profound.” There is uniqueness and profound cumulative existence baked into to every heartbeat, but apparently a lot of people have trouble with this simple idea.
It’s because your brain gets flooded with parenting hormones which give you superhuman delusion tolerance for the first few years. That’s why I’m always skeptical when people are like “it’s hard but I can’t describe how wonderful it is!”
Sure Ryan, that’s totally not just the brain worms talking, I’ll stick with dogs for my nurturing serotonin and I refuse to feel bad about it.
You shouldn’t feel bad about it. Do what you think is right for yourself. On the other hand, you should recognize that you have no idea what being a parent is actually like, which in a sense means that you don’t actually know what you are talking about. It’s life-changing and unlike any imagining.
Two wrongs doesn’t make a right. Then again I have no problem polluting and using up 2 hours of shower water and take tons of baths because others who never cared are doing it. So if you’re being selfish, sure, go ahead.
Neither, really. More like are choosing not to go into child debt. Having a kid costs more than having a house. Good for this generation for taking control of their reproductive decisions.
Of all my younger siblings/cousins/etc, the only ones with kids were accidents. Only I chose to purposely start a family, and that took me a decade of saving.
Agreed. These people are trying to leverage something many of us absolutely aren’t interested in to push for necessities such as fixing inflation, universal Healthcare etc. Except that if those things were fixed it wouldn’t change the birth rate much at all. That’s why Republicans are forcing people to be breeding machines. Educated well off people know better to engage in an activity that is detrimental to their physical and mental health. And making a human means you’re responsible for them until you or they die. That’s the biggest mistake people make. They make a human, then wash their hands of then.
You can both be right, you know. Many of us also agree with what this person was saying.
I used to want kids. I will refuse to have kids unless I can afford them, and until I can GUARANTEE that their human rights won’t be stripped away by the whims of stupid people who are completely disconnected from reality. I won’t bring a new life into a world that’s rushing towards climate oblivion, either.
I’ll sterilize myself before I’m ever forced to have kids.
And there is part of the problem in the eyes of those with power… That thought that you have a choice in sterility. A choice to not have kids didn’t used to exist and you attempting to keep warm and have some pleasure basically guaranteed that you would have more eventually. So that must be stripped in order for you to continue the cycle of having kids not by choice and add to the population that gets fucked over.
No one should have a child unless they are willing to commit themselves to that child 100%. I have a daughter. She’s the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me. And if anyone willingly took substantially less effort than I’ve taken to try to raise her in a safe, healthy environment and prepare her for her future as best I can- fuck you, you should have worn a fucking condom.
Interesting/sad how simply due to circumstance, somebody’s absolute honest best at max effort/sacrifice can still be raising a kid in a favela.
Consider the top vs. bottom billion: I expect the latter half’s kids would appear neglected if they were suddenly transported to the former’s McMansions overnight.
That’s not to say the kisses and the love are any less, but the clothes and the education and the soccer practice? I’d bet certainly.
I hope within by two generations from now this kind of pondering is only possible from a historical perspective. The kids deserve it.
I also have kids and love them dearly. However I think that it is important that parents have their own interests and time for their own lives, independent of their roles as parents. Of course with very young children there’s barely time to sleep, but humans grow up quickly! 😄
If having kids causes you to be poorer what would the results look like?
The reality is that the more kids you have the worse you are at capitalism: You can’t work as much, you can’t take on more demanding jobs and you’ll make life choices that are less lucrative to care for the kids.
Yeah but you also don’t get trashed at the bars every weekend and you live longer healthier life. It isn’t as clear cut as you are making it. I agree being a dad has hurt parts of my career but it has probably helped other parts.
Can only speak for myself, but thankfully I have no interest in more demanding, lucrative jobs to improve my stats in such a rigged and inherently evil game as modern capitalism.
Doing just well enough with a loving family sounds well-lived to me. They can keep their McMansions and rooftop wine tastings.
The source you linked tells that more developed countries have less kids, which is almost unrelated to how “affordable” having a child is, which infact have the opposite trend.
Thanks much better, however “Correlation does not imply causation” which is obvious in this case (and as the source itself say, the correlation is probably about education instead etc). The problem is much more complex and trying to explain it with a simple correlation is a bit naive, however you can’t deny how much of an economic struggle raising a kid is for the average income family…
I never claimed having kids wasn’t a financial endeavor. I’m just pointing out that people with more income have on average less kids… because they do. I didn’t suppose the cause of this correlation at any point. But yes, I’d agree education is a huge part of the cause of this correlation.
I make ~$200K a year. As a father of 5, I wish I had not had a single one. I love them, but the stress of taking care of them coupled with the future of the planet makes me regret life choices.
I find it interesting that you cite the stress of raising them as a factor in your regret. Could you not tell that was going to be an issue around the time number three came around? That’s not intended to be accusatory btw. I’m genuinely curious.
Maybe they meant it like “there is now stress for helping pay for college at a higher cost than when they were born.” Or being stressed knowing if the family lives in a HCOL area (typically where those salaries are offered), they might not be able to live there as well with the current trends in housing costs.
TLDR: things have changed for the worst for newer generations, parents can see it.
Not OP, but I’ve found that the older they get, the harder it gets. Schedules are all over the place, and they start advocating for things they want to do that don’t fit neatly into the family calendar (vs when you were able to choose everything for them).
Expectations for parents have also skyrocketed. Your “best” now is far different than what the 1990s parents were expected to deliver. And, of course, you love them and want to provide them everything they need, so you bend over backwards to make it happen. That’s what society demands, too.
I don’t have as many kids as OP, and I can’t fucking imagine wrangling five in the current world…😳
My wife finally are in a point where we can afford to have children, but we are kinda getting a bit old to have children. So we are also choosing the dual income no children life style,
But a big part of that is our age and how long it took to get to a comfortable place financially.
Now we want to focus on saving for a house and retirement.
I don’t know about this commenter, but don’t forget that everyone is different.
Hypothetically, you might be good having kids in you thirties, but one or both of them might have a condition or disability that gets worse with time.
I know people in their early 20s with bad arthritis, and a lot of people want to be able to chase after and run around with their kids. Sometimes chronic pain/illness can remove that option.
“When we advise clients about having children, we honestly don’t even give them the full real details and the real numbers,” said Shannon McLay, founder of The Financial Gym. “It’s one of those things if you see the math of it all, it might make you decide to not have children.”
what a whole generation of pulling the ladder up behind you will do to a society. Party of family values doing everything they possibly can to destroy familes.
Holy shit, what an incredibly unethical thing to do. “We’re lying to the people who come to us for advice because if we told the truth they might make a decision we don’t like.”
The plebs aren’t breeding enough future workers for us to exploit to deliver the promised renumerations to our shareholders.
We MUST find out the reason why! No it can’t possibly be that extracting all the wealth into our dragon hoards, I mean, hedge funds is the reason why they’re too broke to support children.
It can only be a LiFeStYlE cHoICe! Like being homeless or poor.
Friend of mine wanted kids. Can’t afford it. Both her and her partner work full time, though money was too tight for them to feel comfortable. It’s heartbreaking, really.
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