He’s probably better as an ideological leader than Commander-in-Chief at this point; the movement that he had needs to coalesce again instead of staying at home. That’s the nascent true left that hasn’t existed in the United States since FDRs New Deal.
To clarify here, I am an avid Bernie supported that drove hours from my small town to go to his rallies and me and my wife donated the max allowed every year he was running. Going back and reading my initial comment I can see where i may have come across on the other side here. Where I said “at least they can vilify Trump” I guess what I was referring to is the Democrats like to hang out in the center, if Trump gets elected he would pull everything to the right, and all the democrats get to just be slightly better than him. Trump lowers the bar and it is easy for them to keep playing the good guy while they keep fucking us. If Bernie was elected, he pulls everything to the left, the democrats become the bad guy, and the jig is up for them. Him running independent doesn’t work because the DNC has the money and pull, running as a dem doesn’t work because the DNC will never let it happen. i e . we are fucked.
Trump is perfect for them, their overlords get tax breaks, and they get to easily float over the low ass bar that Trump sets for them.
It sounds like we are on the same side, my ignorance is purely in my writing skills.
I spent some time thinking about this, and I’m interested in your take, because I agree with basically everything you say, and especially:
i e . we are fucked.
I truly don’t think Biden can win at this point. The way I see it, supporting Biden as a candidate, arguing that he’s the lessor of evils, that we just have support him to beat Trump; its not only supporting genocide, its basically committing to a failed strategy because you are too blind to see any other way.
To make it short: I don’t think Biden is going to be the nominee. Not after this week. Not after they’ve been hiding him as much as they have. His cognitive decline is real, and his ludicrous position on Gaza is setting the stage for global conflict.
I’m gonna say that after this week, Biden’s polling is going to dip into the thirties, and in 4-6 weeks he’ll be polling at 35-40%. He’s not going to change his position on Gaza and he can’t win the national election with his position on Gaza. The student protests have highlighted that point.
Do you think Biden will be the nominee after his reaction to these student protests?
Nominee? Like the primaries? Yes, the DNC is too selfish to prop up any other sentient human. The only way he isn’t the nominee is if they remove him or if he drops out. And in the General I will vote for any meat bag with a pulse over Trump. Hell, pulse is optional. And I am pretty sure any American who isn’t activity trying to burn this country down will do the same. Tramp will not only continue to not give a shit what is happening in Gaza, he will capitalize off of it. Same in Ukrane (That war is his fault) he will also start wars here. Unfortunately, it is the lesser of the evils. And Biden is far less bad… he is a passenger, Trump stomps on the gas. This country will never be fixed peacefully. To many powerful people will lose too much money if it is ever fixed.
I can find an article from every month since Hamas attacked where he calls for a ceasefire, investigation into atrocities, or an end to Israeli funding.
Buddy, lemme tell you something, if you know anything about politicians and how they get their news. It's a lot slower than you realize.
Biden knows what's going on ahead of time because his attention is there. Bernie might've been getting this as hand-down info for all we know. Plus, he's probably gathering up quite a stockpile of claims backed by facts to use against Israel.
Yea, Bernie just kicked off an investigation against Novo Nordisk regarding price inflations on medication (over $1000) when it costs ~$300 in Canada and Europe (I'm fudging the figures cause I cant remember). The man's only got so much time in the day
It’s a deluge of the commenters who totally aren’t russian shills but just coincidentally happen to be spreading the same messages (don’t vote! Both sides bad!) in the run up to a presidential election. It’s just the darndest coincidence.
(disclaimer: I am a leftist and voting for Biden despite his policies)
It’s just the darndest coincidence.
It’s not. Go talk to your coworkers, neighbors, or fellow students. It doesn’t matter how they’re going to vote, most of them are like “BOTH SIDES ARE BAD!!! But I’m voting for [asdf] because [qwerty]” or they use it as an excuse as to why they aren’t going to bother voting. It’s very American.
Source: (Turd Sandwich / Giant douche)[www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7pfsneLSSM] episode of South Park aired in 2004 (FUCK! that’s 20 years ago). I was there. Everyone was like “HAHA SAME. That’s why I’m completely checked out. I’m so fucking smart.”
Listen, I’m typing this up because this sort of absolutist rhetoric is just fostering online division and you’ve gotten a lot of upvotes for it. Yes there are Russian shills (especially on Lemmy). But this is a very common opinion, and pretending it’s not isn’t serving anyone or fixing a problem. Calling people you don’t know and can’t know Russian shills is just name calling.
It’s not. Go talk to your coworkers, neighbors, or fellow students. It doesn’t matter how they’re going to vote, most of them are like “BOTH SIDES ARE BAD!!! But I’m voting for [asdf] because [qwerty]” or they use it as an excuse as to why they aren’t going to bother voting. It’s very American.
It’s just not my experience, no. But to be fair I haven’t had fellow students for awhile, so maybe there’s something very confusing about the demented rapist or the experienced statesman for teh kidz that I’m not grokking. I just can’t imagine it though.
The kids are sick of this shit. Like he said, that episode aired 20 years ago. So for people who are 20, this shits been going on their entire lives and for all they know, will keep going on for the rest of their lives if they give in and accept Bernie. So a lot of people are understandably disenfranchised, and think maybe trump again will be what it takes to shake up the democrats, or make things bad enough that we actually get some revolutionary change. It’s really not that hard to understand.
You think it wasn’t exactly the same for us? We were the bungholes who voted Nader in 2000 and brought about the fantastical Iraq War II: Fuckin’ Mushroom Cloud Brah!
Clinton was all we could get after 12 years of insane right-wing bullshit, and he did some good things but it wasn’t nearly enough. You’d take it too after two reagans and a blood-for-oil war.
You were, what, twelve the first time trump was illegitimately elected? And now you’re so mad you’re going to push for it again because the Democrats aren’t doing enough? That’s . . . really familiar. If it was anyone else but trump, you might have a point.
But thinking “maybe trump again will be what it takes to shake up the democrats, or make things bad enough that we actually get some revolutionary change” is - and again, that was us 20 years ago - is insane. And horrible. And Not. A. Real. Plan. Anyway.
Not only will it fuck us up, we’ll all be so much further away from ‘revolutionary change’ if there ever is another election. Because the mechanisms and institutions that Make Things Go will be very damaged.
Be mad! But don’t be stupid. Work the system by participating and changing it. Not voting, or letting chaos reign is such a dumb way to think about it and it won’t even work. You ever learned anything from anyone? Well how did they find out anything before Wikipedia? They lived it already. Trust us, we get what and how you’re pissed about Democratic politics, but anything except direct participation WILL fail. And if trump gets in, we’ll be behind square one.
It’s also people so lost in the sauce they can’t see reality in front of them.
Check out this argument I had recently on lemmy. I was saying to someone that voting is important, even if we disagree with Biden on some very important issues, because abstaining is as good as voting for Trump.
And this person, who I think is the owner of the entire instance they’re registered on if their username is anything to go by, repeatedly and aggressively insisted that voting can never accomplish anything.
Reviewing their profile showed they’re pretty consistent in this belief. They seem to seriously think the ONLY option is violent revolution, and nothing short of that is worth a thing.
Too late Bernie, we’ve seen you sit on the sidelines in silence like the rest of the DNC while Palestinians got slaughtered. His silence and refusal to call it out made him complicit.
Bro, the only comment you’ve made on this account that has more upvotes than downvotes is one that you deleted. I think it’s safe to say that the inverse of whatever you say is true. Let’s try it out.
“Just in time Bernie; we’ve seen you active in the forefront protesting unlike the rest of the DNC while Palestinians got slaughtered. His agitation and willingness to call it out made him a leader.”
I think you’re right that Bernie was late. He has been criticized for decades for being weak on Palestine. He wouldnt say the word “ceasefire” until the Democratic Party gave him permission.
But please look at the bigger picture. The movement for Palestinian liberation needs numbers and we need solidarity. Bernie may be “late” but hes on the right side of history. Everyone who joins the movement today is “late” but we can’t afford to turn them away.
And let’s be honest, Bernie is the best Senator of our lifetimes (so far). No other Senator is giving such powerful pro-Palestinian speeches. The Senate floor would be so much darker and more evil without this one man’s voice.
I thought about digging up the video of Bernie vigorously complaining about aid for Israel without any improvement in their behavior from the 1980s. But I feel like I've sent it to you before along with some others, the last time you raised this totally bizarre argument.
But something even more fundamental occurred to me
You're saying that Bernie Sanders is in lock step with the DNC?
Bernie Sanders?
DNC?
You, uh...
Are you under the impression Bernie Sanders is a Democrat?
The warm and loving friendship between Bernie and the DNC, with him always agreeing with everything they wa
You know what
Even typing a sarcastic reply to this is a waste of time.
I looked over your profile. Long story short:
The US and Ukraine ripped up that treaty years before by refusing to abide by the terms of the Minsk Agreements. [emphasis mine]
Anyone with an ounce of integrity would be anti US, anti EU, anti Ukraine.
Navalny was ostracized in Russia because of his white nationalism, not because he opposed Putin.
Just curious -- what sources of news / world politics information do you usually read? Where did you learn this about Navalny and the Minsk agreement, for example, or about how silent Bernie has been on the Israel issue up until now? I am interested to learn to deprogram myself from all the Western propaganda that maybe I've been taken in by, and I'd like to be able to expose myself to some honest news. What would you recommend as a good place to get started where I could learn this stuff too?
Or just pulled out of his ass. I'm pretty sure the Bernie Israel thing is just made up because of the impact it would have, not anything this person even read in some propaganda piece.
@anticolonialist Answer me you perfectly honest person -- you say things like "I suspect everything you know about both countries has come from US propaganda" -- okay sure, where do you get what you know about both countries? And about Biden, or Bernie Sanders? Why would this straightforward question lead to sudden silence?
I think it is fairly obvious that they're just deliberately saying weird and inflammatory shit to pollute the discussion. I mean, it worked on me.
But yes, if we're going to take it seriously enough to write down reasons why they are clearly not being honest, "all the people on the 'left' look the same to me, I put Bernie Sanders and the Democratic Party in the same category, doesn't everyone on the American left do that?" is a fairly big one.
Let us be clear: The Palestinian people today are experiencing nothing less than a humanitarian disaster. Thousands are already dead, including many children, and more are wounded. Hundreds of thousands have been forced out of their homes. These people, deeply impoverished before this war, now lack food, water, fuel, shelter, medicine, and other basic necessities. Unbelievably, more than 400,000 Palestinians, driven from their homes, are now sheltering in densely crowded U.N.-run schools. Dozens of medical facilities have been damaged, and 35 U.N. aid workers have been killed. The aid trickling into Gaza is just a fraction of what is needed. In a few days, hospitals will run out of fuel, and ventilators and incubators will shut off. This is a desperate, desperate situation. I echo Secretary Blinken’s call for the immediate release of all hostages. He also called for the consideration of a humanitarian pause by all parties. To my mind, a pause is essential for the protection of civilians as required by the laws of war, as well as for the provision of robust supplies of food, water, and medical aid to address the growing humanitarian catastrophe.
I mean the moderates would probably vote for him because he's not Trump. And he'd handily gain the Muslim vote (which as we've learned recently has outsized impact on several background states) due to his stance on Palestine and general rejection of intolerance.
I don’t think Leftists would. All it takes is one hint of anything not 100% in alignment with whatever that individual Leftist believes, and they’ll drop support.
In 2016, toward the end of the lead up to the primaries, Bernie polled higher than HRC when they were each given as an option to oppose Trump. I was in rural New York at the time and it was surprising to see so many Bernie signs. Somehow, he was able to reach blue collar America where other, recent Democrats have lost ground.
As a populist, Bernie was a stronger candidate against the other “populist” (Trump) than the institution candidate (HRC). Naturally, the DNC would rather lose against a wannabe-dictator than back someone who doesn’t swallow their entire load.
One of the biggest mistakes from the DNC was indeed pushing for HRC in 2016. And the more corporate/centrist Dems continue to resist and fight the progressives today.
Biden fucking sucks. Only genocidal racists and corporate facists still support him.
Trumps beyond a fucking criminal, and in a hypothetical head to head, probably worse.
Bernie is the only other American politician of the previous decade who has been competitive at a national level, and enjoys widespread popularity. Democratic apologists will have you forget the rat-fucking, but not everyone is blind.
Just so you know I don’t consider myself a genocidal racist or corporate fascist but I will be proudly throwing 100% of my support behind Biden and will encourage all around me to do the same. You should vote Biden by the way…
Its like what they say about Trump. Not fascist by #1 with fascists.
Have you heard that german phrase? “If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis.”
Biden has had so many opportunities to do better and he’s refused to do so at every turn. If you vote for this guy, you support the genocide of Palestinian people, and the conversion of Israel into a fascist pariah state. Biden is in complete support of Bibi, and everything happening in Gaza right now. He’s worse than Trump when it comes to cracking protestors heads (happening, right now). Claiming the right to protest when you are supporting and announcing that order must prevail? He’s dismissing the students right to protest and affirming the Universities and polices right to criminalize the protest. And its killing his extremely limited chances at success. You just can’t see it because he’s a Democrat and you can’t see past the color blue.
We’re better off supporting Cornell West at this point, and he’s ran his campaign like an idiot. Biden has no chance because it just isn’t in him to hold Israel accountable.
That’s not true. Bidens changes may get tighter, but the logic of what I said is consistent. Vote for anyone but Biden, and you increase the chances of trump.
You just don’t fucking get it. Biden cant win. He doesn’t have a path to 270 unless he 180’s on Gaza. It was a low probability in December when his polling was in the 30s.
Its not a low probability any more, its done. Biden can’t win. He has completely lost at this point.
You either run someone else or vote 3rd party.
Saying your voting Biden at this point is basically saying you want Trump to be president.
Ah, the old I know you are, but what am I defense. Clearly, you’re incapable of critical thinking if you think your contradictory logic is actually a way to stop trump from winning. Again, you’re being an apathetic pos trying to get people not to vote. Fuck you, for doing that and fuck you for supporting trump.
I’m not apathetic you dense mf. I’m evaluating the situation and making a judgement. Biden has broken his path to 270 and continuing to argue for him as a candidate is basically ensuring a Trump victory.
That’s you. You can’t see past the tip of your shortsighted nose.
The question is not whether you like or don’t like Biden. The question is not about the morals of lesser evilism. The question is about is the left going to be able to organise in the future, or is it going to get crushed by force. Is that an end result you can get behind that might justify the means of checks notes spending five minutes to do the possible within the limits of the current material conditions, i.e. turn up to the fucking ballot booth.
Biden’s blown any chance he had. You’ve got a better chance of getting Maryanne Williamson into office.
Who? I mean sorry I’m European but if I haven’t heard of her no she doesn’t have a chance. Ballots aren’t decided by policy, first and foremost they’re a popularity contest and the first step in that is be known. Second step, make sure people believe you can win, appear to have enough support to actually be worth a shot. Then policy comes into play. Biden has the first two nailed down because institutional inertia, policy don’t matter if your other candidate doesn’t reach that bar.
Despite the flaws that Biden has shown, including his inaction regarding Gaza, or action depending on perspective and topic, he has gotten quite a bit done. However, he is bipartisan in a time where we do need a hard and stalwart, more progressive candidate and leader. We have been pulled so far to the Right as a country that fairness so often seems like some distant memory. What we need is a sharp twist of the wheel and, honestly, I think all of us together can accomplish that with four more years under Biden. A way to stop Trump and buy time for us to carry the momentum that all this growing anger and frustration is giving us.
Let’s use the system as it is, get our people in, improve it, and knock out all these corrupt old bloods.
Let’s use the system as it is, get our people in, improve it, and knock out all these corrupt old bloods.
This fantasy is a talking point Democrats have been laying out since 2008. It hasn’t worked. Capitulation to the lessor of two evils only emboldens evil.
Supporting Biden at this point is basically handing the election to Trump. He’s blown it. He can’t win without the youth vote and no amount of siccing the police on the college kids or wagging your finger is going to fix Biden’s fundamental flaws. Biden can not win without 100% of the 18-24 year olds and 100% of the progressives.
We’re actually better off rallying behind literally anyone else.
Supporting Biden at this point is basically handing the election to Trump.
Holy contradiction, Batman! If you support Biden, it actually lessens the chances of Trump being elected. Also, your solution at this point is to be as apathetic as possible and discourage everyone from voting in turn handing the election to Trump? Real genius like thinking there, champ.
It was never in the cards, sorry to say. To be leftist means to grow stronger every time you lose. The Democratic Party would rather lose to Trump than win with a scary socialist.
In another timeline Bernie won the Democratic primaries in 2016 and was ultimately elected president of The United States of America. His policies are so popular that both republicans and democrats overwhelmingly support him.
I bet you it’s pretty nice over there right about now.
The global pandemic, rise of fascism, the active collapse of global ecosystems, climate crisis and wealth gap are probably less of a problem there. But I bet they’re still stuck working in offices, so we have that going for us.
With how Israel has been killing journalists, this is not going to happen. Those mainstream media, that support Israel, know well enough what is happening. It’s not like they actually believe their own lies.
he’s a smart guy so he’s aware that no one will do this.
i used to like bernie but i’m learning that he likes to talk the talk, but doesn’t walk the walk (atleast not anymore). i regret donating to him, but part of me feels good that i did because it means that i can be just as clueless and mis/ill-informed as the people who support biden or trump.
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