futurebird, (edited )
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

Suppose you have a number in base 60. Is there anything remarkable or interesting about having a 49 in the 1s place?

Numbers in base 10 such as:

169, 769, 1249, 6649, 12709

lexi,

@futurebird I'm not sure although it reminds me of this: "These sevens are everywhere in this thing, and I have no idea why."

https://robertlovespi.net/2013/02/10/triangles-and-their-trideans/

n1vux,
@n1vux@mastodon.radio avatar

@futurebird
I don't know off hand what it is, but having the same remainder as a prime squared (7²) will have some forced properties.

A delightfully elementary, visual examination of these sorts of things popped up on YouTube recently; they looked at Base or Modulus of 12 as the composite example, and p² mod B is discussed for prime p, B= 7 or 12.
https://youtu.be/lJ3CD9M3nEQ?si=iE6x2yHtwoeRp-k5

n1vux,
@n1vux@mastodon.radio avatar

@futurebird
Refreshed my memory.
24 | p²-1 for all primes p > 3.
Or p²= 24 n + 1 .
So p² mod 60 in {25, 49} .
Whether this connects to Euclid's formula for Pythagorean Triples isn't obvious yet, but that 1², 7² are the predominant units in Ply.322 is suggestive at least on hypoteneuse column. Alas 169-49=120 is not a squared integer m² as desired, so not helping.

Alon,
@Alon@mastodon.social avatar

@n1vux @futurebird 1 mod 60 also works, as in 121. The full set of residues mod 120 is {1, 25, 49} (from 1 mod 24 and 0, 1, 4 mod 5).

trochee,
@trochee@dair-community.social avatar

@futurebird

49 is the first composite number whose prime factors are not factors of 60?

Trying to see if "eleven minutes to the hour" rings any bells (ha), but... no?

trochee,
@trochee@dair-community.social avatar

@futurebird I think the only composite number<60 AND no common factors with 60

51 is 3x17 (shares 3)
53 is prime, not composite
55 shares 5
57 shares 3 again
59 is prime

So I could imagine that Babylonian/Sumerian mathematicians might think of 49 as the "most prime-y composite, with a secret key associated with the first difficult number number (7)"

dalias,
@dalias@hachyderm.io avatar

@futurebird You mean in the ones place?

futurebird,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

@dalias YES.

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@futurebird not off the top of our head

futurebird,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

@irenes

Almost half of the numbers on plimpton 322 have a 49 in the 1s place. Maybe it's just because it's a perfect square? The most popular theory is they worked out the triples geometrically to find right angles for surveying. I was toying with having some students translate it and the numbers are much larger than I expected. And it's strange how so many end in 49 or 1 ...

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@futurebird ah! we wondered if it was going to be a Babylonian thing :)

could it have been conventional to round things off to 49 instead of to 0 for some reason?

futurebird,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

@irenes

Rounding would ruin the triples. So I don't think it's that.

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@futurebird we did once read a cool Donald Knuth paper (a computer scientist, not an anthropologist) which took a detailed look at algorithms found on ancient sources and compared them to how modern algorithms are written. depending on how much context exists for this tablet we definitely wouldn't discount the possibility of having a math person take a close look at it to figure out what it's doing.

futurebird,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar
irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@futurebird no, yeah, seeing patterns that aren't there is a real problem :/

c0dec0dec0de,
@c0dec0dec0de@hachyderm.io avatar

@irenes @futurebird when your brain is a pattern-finding machine, and that’s your evolutionary trick…
(I always forget this term)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

futurebird,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

@irenes

I think the underlined 9 should be an 8 ... then it works.

Still don't know what went wrong on the second line...

futurebird,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

@irenes

I don't understand the need to inflate the significance of this list. It's really remarkable that the numbers generally just work.

No need to claim that they were graphing sine curves or anything.

tlariv,
@tlariv@mastodon.cloud avatar

@irenes
It's the square of the smallest integer that's relatively prime to the base
@futurebird

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@tlariv @futurebird so it is, huh

tlariv,
@tlariv@mastodon.cloud avatar

@irenes
So in some way like a nine in the ones place in base 10
@futurebird

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@tlariv @futurebird haha, you could say that. just, not the usual reason that we think of a nine in the ones place being significant.

(note though that this is the 60s place not the 1s place)

tlariv,
@tlariv@mastodon.cloud avatar

@irenes
Well, there's a discrepancy between the description of the problem and the examples, but from a number-theoretical viewpoint I'm not sure that it matters
@futurebird

tlariv,
@tlariv@mastodon.cloud avatar

@irenes
Maybe a 4 in base 5 or base 7 would be a more useful analogy?
@futurebird

futurebird,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

@tlariv @irenes

What about 9 in base 64?

I do not get using base 60 when you could have base 64... and think of how crazy the theories would be if the Babylonians had used a base that's a power of 2 and all about computers. LOL.

tlariv,
@tlariv@mastodon.cloud avatar

@futurebird
Base 60 makes identifying multiples of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, and 30 trivial. That's pretty handy.
@irenes

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@tlariv @futurebird no, yeah, we've always thought base 60, or base 12, are both really good choices for a setting where people are going to be doing a lot of integer math. with our modern concepts of decimal points, and calculating devices that give us as much precision as we want, it doesn't really matter as much, but if you want the numbers to work out cleanly you do want a base with lots of distinct prime factors.

futurebird,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

@irenes @tlariv

Forget decimal time. I want binary time. Put 64 min in the hour.

tlariv,
@tlariv@mastodon.cloud avatar

@futurebird
Nope. I'm all in on the French Republican clock.
@irenes

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@tlariv @futurebird honestly if we were choosing a time format just to be annoying and quirky we'd probably go with Julian days.

the current Julian day is 2460338.6452315, for example.

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@tlariv @futurebird see, it's the number of sidereal days since January 1st, 4714 BC. the part after the decimal point is the time of day. convenient!

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@tlariv @futurebird specifically sidereal days though. don't go thinking noon is 0.5 or anything easy like that.

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@tlariv @futurebird if you haven't noticed, this is a danger you can encounter with mathematicians and math fans where sometimes people will be talking about the best way to do something and we'll start figuring out the worst, for completeness :D

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@tlariv @futurebird it's just generally less controversial

irenes,
@irenes@mastodon.social avatar

@tlariv @futurebird like if we were saying the BEST way to write times is something specific, and somebody else chimes in saying no the best way is something else, we're having an argument

if we're saying the worst way is this, and somebody else says no wait what about that other thing, we're both making productive contributions that enhance the discussion :D

trochee,
@trochee@dair-community.social avatar

@irenes

This is the essential joy of "wrong answers only" shitposting

@tlariv @futurebird

tlariv,
@tlariv@mastodon.cloud avatar

@irenes
I had a friend who sanded down a slide rule and recalibrated it in base 12. The. Whole. Thing.
@futurebird

futurebird,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

@tlariv @irenes

That's mental. But... I could use one of those for this little side project .... did they scan it?

trochee,
@trochee@dair-community.social avatar

@tlariv

This is a much nicer way of saying what I said here
https://dair-community.social/@trochee/111837192001064581

@irenes @futurebird

n1vux,
@n1vux@mastodon.radio avatar

@futurebird @irenes
I'm experimenting ... generating Pyth. triples via Euclid, I'm getting more 49 unit or remainder than i'd expect from chance, ×2.3 fold.

Not near as strong as you observed in as Plimpton 322, but enough to say there's a something, and that there was a system to P322's algorithm that favored 49 more strongly than Euclid's.

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