clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

I'm reading Janette Sadik-Khan's "Street Fight" -- her book about her time as transportation head of NYC, building bike lanes, bikeshare, and pedestrian avenues

She prints this "city of the future" model from the 1939 World's Fair

Massive highways circling mammoth buildings; virtually no non-car routes; hilariously few trees

I'd love to read about: How did this become the vision of "the future" back in 1939?

What are some good books on that? Any recommendations, I'm all ears!

LaChasseuse,
@LaChasseuse@mastodon.scot avatar

@clive I blame Corbusier. He thought everyone would rocket commute between work and home.

mousebot,
@mousebot@todon.nl avatar

@LaChasseuse @clive I second Corbusier .

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@mousebot @LaChasseuse

yep yep, others in this thread agree

benjamingeer,
@benjamingeer@zirk.us avatar

@clive @mousebot @LaChasseuse For an influential interpretation of what people like Le Corbusier were doing with public space and why, I recommend Seeing Like a State by James C. Scott.

ktoddbrown,
@ktoddbrown@social.coop avatar

@benjamingeer @clive @mousebot @LaChasseuse I was just going to recommend Seeing a Like a State. Really fantastic read!

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@ktoddbrown @benjamingeer @mousebot @LaChasseuse

A superb book -- read it years ago, gotta go reread

Good suggestion!

mousebot,
@mousebot@todon.nl avatar

@clive @ktoddbrown @benjamingeer @LaChasseuse lol I've also read and enjoyed it, but I feel like I learned more from against the grain. I must got my corbusier from elsewhere. maybe all that is solid melts into air.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar
Lyle,
@Lyle@cville.online avatar

@clive Good intro to Le Corbusier’s arguments. Reportedly he was very charismatic and dynamic, he would hand illustrate his arguments on butcher paper and then give the drawings to the audience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toward_an_Architecture?wprov=sfti1

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@Lyle

Right on — thank you!

Lyle,
@Lyle@cville.online avatar
clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@Lyle

Oh I’ll check that out — I love Tati but hadn’t heard about this

oblomov,
@oblomov@sociale.network avatar

@clive it became a vision of the future because it was the obvious way to extrapolate the changes that were happening already.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@oblomov

Yeah good point

schwbby,
@schwbby@mastodon.social avatar

@clive there have been a lot of references to Le Corbusier and Robert Moses in the replies. This article in a book I edited does a good job of making sense of the cultural moment: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.5555/2811094.2811124

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@schwbby

Aha superb!

atthenius,
@atthenius@fediscience.org avatar

@clive

Seeing this image makes me realize that someone took this pic literally.

We have an Apple TV in my home with whatever default screensaver…

Sheikh Zaid Road in Dubai is very close.

https://youtu.be/2DDfL6uOUOw?si=wv6b9a4hix5pMeH1

KevinMarks,
@KevinMarks@xoxo.zone avatar

@atthenius @clive It almost makes sense in Dubai as for most of the year it is too hot to walk outside, while still being ridiculously over the top.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@atthenius @KevinMarks

Yeah — all you want to do is leave one air-conditioned building to get into an air-conditioned vehicle and exit immediately at another air-conditioned building

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@atthenius

yikes, it really is, isn't it?

jemmesedi,
@jemmesedi@c.im avatar

@clive

The exhibit at the 1939 World's Fair was called "Futurama". It was part of GM's "Highways and Horizons" pavilion.

There is an eight minute video about Futurama here:

https://youtu.be/aMSp4d2rOzE?si=UJRxB1lJ5KgTFTsr

Here is the 23 minute promotional film for Futurama from 1939:

https://youtu.be/sClZqfnWqmc?si=IvaxUGwcO4ef39N4

Watching the promotional film will give you a good sense of the rhetoric and ostensible values informing Futurama.

I can see that other people have suggested readings about urban planning. You might also like to consider Futurama and its vision of the future USA in the context of industrial design - Futurama 'was dreamed up by industrial designer Norman Bel Geddes.

Wikipedia has an entry on Bel Geddes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Bel_Geddes

You can learn more about Bel Geddes in an outstanding history of US industrial design between the wars, Jeffrey Meikle's "Twentieth Century Limited".

https://alt.library.temple.edu/tupress/titles/179a_reg_print.html

That design history will help you make sense both of Futurama and the car dominated USA that came into being in the decades following WWII .

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@jemmesedi

Very cool -- I'll check out that promo video! thank you

peterme,
@peterme@sfba.social avatar

@clive @jemmesedi I was coming here to suggest Futurama. To directly answer your question, it became the vision for the future because GM paid for it!

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@jemmesedi @peterme

Ohhhhh that makes sense

Lyle,
@Lyle@cville.online avatar

@clive I’d like to put in a word for my colleague Peter Norton’s work. I’m trying to get him on here. https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262516129/fighting-traffic/

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@Lyle

Norton's book is amazing! I read it and interviewed him a few years back for this piece: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/fight-scooters-common-19th-century-battle-over-bicycles-180973510/

lkanies,
@lkanies@hachyderm.io avatar

@clive this doesn’t answer your question (looks well covered already), but if you’re not already listening to the 99% invisible podcast series on Power Broker, I highly recommend it. I assume you know the book (about the guy who built nearly all the highways in NYC, among lots of other stuff).

It’s not the answer to your question, but boy howdy is it on topic.

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/power-broker-01-robert-caro/

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@lkanies

Yes yes -- some other folks pointed this one out too!

It looks fab

Swalsh,
@Swalsh@mastodon.social avatar

@clive The_Power_Broker by Robert Caro explains exactly how - in actuality - it started, was executed, and continued (through ~1975). I don't remember if there was mention in there specifically of the Worlds Fair.

Swalsh,
@Swalsh@mastodon.social avatar

@clive Robert Moses had a significant influence on the World's Fair according to Yale: https://yalealumnimagazine.org/articles/3850-robert-moses-and-the-worlds-fair

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@Swalsh

Aha, cool, thank you!

andrewfeeney,
@andrewfeeney@phpc.social avatar

@clive I thought this was a photo of Dubai at first.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@andrewfeeney

lol indeed

RoyBrander,
@RoyBrander@urbanists.social avatar

@clive

I recall a short-story by Gibson, "The Gernsback Continuum", where the future imagined by SF pioneer Hugo Gernback kept appearing, nothing but those towers and people in white robes.

Check out the movie of Wells' "Things to Come" for an early view of the towers-and-white-cities future.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@RoyBrander

I read that in the 1981 issue of OMNI where it first appeared!

great, great story

roadskater,
@roadskater@mastodon.social avatar

@clive @RoyBrander The story entirely aside, the very title of Asimov's "The Caves of Steel" seems apropos.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar
LaChasseuse,
@LaChasseuse@mastodon.scot avatar

@clive See Corbusier's book "The Radiant City"

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@LaChasseuse

ooooo good, thank you!

kvnweb,
@kvnweb@hachyderm.io avatar

@clive @LaChasseuse second that rec! Also if you want a broader context for the evolution of transport policy in the US adjacent to Corbusier, I highly recommend Christopher Well's Car Country https://archive.org/details/carcountryenviro0000well

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@kvnweb @LaChasseuse

That looks phenomenal -- ordering now ... thank you!

kvnweb,
@kvnweb@hachyderm.io avatar

@clive @LaChasseuse It really shaped my entire understanding of US history. It's an extraordinary book.

Tbh, seeing William Cronon's name on the cover is why I picked it up, and it lives up to that endorsement!

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@kvnweb @LaChasseuse

🤘 🤖

kvnweb,
@kvnweb@hachyderm.io avatar

@clive @LaChasseuse Another thing it's great for is as a jumping off point to primary source material.

The best two things I learned about from it were Toll Roads and Free Roads (1939 Bureau of Public Roads feasibility study on interstates PDF here: https://enotrans.org/eno-resources/1939-toll-roads-and-free-roads-report/ ) and Building the American Highway System: Engineers As Policy Makers (hard to find but you can get it from big university libraries)

https://www.amazon.com/Building-American-Highway-System-Technology/dp/0877224722

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@kvnweb @LaChasseuse

very cool

meena,
@meena@glitch.social avatar

@clive I can imagine that someone that close to the invention and sudden industrialization of cars would've thought that we're moving into a glamorous future on four wheels, becoming trans-human

instead of, you know, leaving behind our health, safety, and the democratizationing force of walking and talking and playing in the streets.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@meena

yep yep

the Manifesto of Futurism really channeled that

meena,
@meena@glitch.social avatar

@clive reads first paragraph on Wikipedia

wow that sounds like fascism…

Ctrl+F fascism

"In article 9, war is defined as a necessity for the health of human spirit, a purification that allows and benefits idealism. Their explicit glorification of war and its "hygienic" properties influenced the ideology of fascism. Marinetti was very active in fascist politics until he withdrew in protest of the "Roman Grandeur" which had come to dominate fascist aesthetics."

ah,

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@meena

lol yeah

The dots are so closely crowded they scarcely need connecting

philmoscovitch,
@philmoscovitch@mstdn.ca avatar

@clive No book rec, but here's the Anaconda Standard, 1924, via Paul Faerie:

In the city of 2024...there will be three-deck roads; speedways through the heart of town; skyscrapers with entrances for automobiles as high as 15 stories; monorail expresses to the suburbs replacing street cars and motor-omnibuses; ever-moving sidewalks and underground freight carriers which will go in all directions, serving all railroad stations and business districts...

philmoscovitch,
@philmoscovitch@mstdn.ca avatar

@clive The city of 100 years from now, in fact, will have a good many big and little movements with meanings of their own only dimly intelligible. The Swedish architect is proceeding on the theory that motorcars are going to increase and multiply indefinitely. How can he be sure but that by 2024 aircraft will have relegated the automobile to the limbo where old-fashioned horse and buggy now repose.

philmoscovitch,
@philmoscovitch@mstdn.ca avatar

@clive It would be fascinating to see a compendium of these for various cities. The Halifax equivalent was essentially still around in the 1960s, and we are in the middle of redeveloping a key component of the downtown expressway that never got built other than one pointless interchange.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@philmoscovitch

This is great, thank you!

Yeah, a real compendium of this stuff is what I'm after

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

I mean this sort of thing is familiar from depictions in radium- and silver-age sci fi

and the european Futurists were obsessed with machinery, speed, force, etc

But how did this sort of urban vision coalesce?

migurski,
@migurski@mastodon.social avatar

@clive strongly recommend the book Roads Were Not Built For Cars for a history of this time period: great coverage of the political and technological forces that took popular support for cycling and later transmuted it to car infrastructure

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@migurski

Aha, yes -- I read that years ago, when I was writing a column for Smithsonian about reactions to the advent of the safety bicycle, and interviewed the author

I'll pull it off the shelf and re-read -- good call!

migurski,
@migurski@mastodon.social avatar

@clive The book doesn’t say this but my take-away was that we’ll all be subject to the whims of the rich. When they like bikes, we get bikes. When they like cars, we’ll get those instead.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@migurski

When I spoke to him -- this was back around 2018 I think -- Reid made an interesting prediction, which was that e-scooters and e-bikes would soon bulk up and become more rugged ...

They were jusssst easing into the mainstream back then, and were a bit flimsy

He predicted they'd go the way the bicycle itself went: From a more-slender and janky design to something more rugged

He kind of nailed it -- both categories have produced burly, hefty entrants

migurski,
@migurski@mastodon.social avatar

@clive especially in Cargo Dad category!

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@migurski

truly

migurski,
@migurski@mastodon.social avatar

@clive also I think this 1893 prediction is interesting: a lot of it comes true though not quite in the way the pre-ICE author believes. It at least gives a hint for why people might have been motivated to try new urban forms

https://sfba.social/@morgan/111993211375266986

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@migurski

Wow, that one is wild!!

migurski,
@migurski@mastodon.social avatar

@clive he thinks we’re all going to be pedaling in this future, instead of seated in enormous heated moving chairs surrounded by cup holders and honking angrily at one another. Otherwise it’s pretty dead-on? 🤔🤪

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@migurski

Truly!

Pappy,
@Pappy@thepit.social avatar

@migurski @clive

I want to live in 1993

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@Pappy @migurski

seriously

CelloMomOnCars,
@CelloMomOnCars@mastodon.social avatar

@clive @Pappy @migurski

"The surface will be hard and smooth"

Just a reminder that horses had no trouble with unpaved roads, but bicycles did.

When bicycle riding was a posh thing, the posh people riding bicycles were the ones who pushed for paving the streets. And they got their hard, smooth surfaces.

https://www.vox.com/2015/3/19/8253035/roads-cyclists-cars-history

It's all about where the power sits.

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@CelloMomOnCars @Pappy @migurski

yep

Reid's work is amazing on the cyclist lobby and how it paved the way -- metaphorically and metonymically -- for cars

migurski,
@migurski@mastodon.social avatar

@clive @CelloMomOnCars @Pappy Peter Norton is another great speaker on this topic, based on his 2017 NACTO keynote https://nacto.org/event/nacto17-lunch-plenary/

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@migurski @CelloMomOnCars @Pappy

Yep, Norton is great! I talked to him and to Carlton Reid a few years back when I wrote about the rise and fall of the bicycle for Smithsonian mag

mooch,
@mooch@social.lol avatar

@migurski I love this. This is my favourite bit:

@clive

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@mooch @migurski

lol yeah

The age old prediction that a new type of technology is so awesome it will end war by making disagreements between humans impossible

18+ NaturaArtisMagistra,
@NaturaArtisMagistra@mastodon.world avatar

@migurski

The next "alloy" is graphene.

mvexel,
@mvexel@en.osm.town avatar

@migurski @clive 150 mph! 🚴💨💨💨

I love the closing words about the bicycle bringing world peace.

migurski,
@migurski@mastodon.social avatar

@mvexel @clive Yeah, similar to predictions about air power effectively making war intolerable in the future

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@migurski @mvexel

yeah absolutely

crashglasshouses,
@crashglasshouses@kolektiva.social avatar

@clive fascism

clive,
@clive@saturation.social avatar

@crashglasshouses

very true

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