Haven’t some particularly haenous talking heads on TV literally already said this? Perhaps not in directly declaratory language at someone, because that’s begging for a defamation suit, though I have absolutely heard Republican scum make this exact accusation in the general case several times against trans people.
These people also never consider that they’re measuring the wrong thing. If they’re taking the position that the effects of testosterone from birth in trans M-to-F kids gives them an unfair advantage due to bone density and muscle mass, then they’re failing to take into account that there are a number of natural health conditions that produce elevated testosterone levels in women as well.
I’m not saying this to be funny, but women with stubble especially around the chin often have elevated T levels, often due to PCOS. There truly are some women who are “built like a man” and they’re not trans - at least certainly not in the way we use the term today. They’re natural, their bodies just work differently.
Banning trans kids isn’t going to level the playing field in the way they say they want to. Measuring things that testosterone affects like bone density would.
Most sports are dominated by people with genetic gifts. But having a little extra testosterone from a genetic quirk is a completely different thing than having extra testosterone because you were born with testes.
It is one thing to have a quirk of the same organs, it’s another to be born with a different organ that effectively produces performance enhancing hormones.
But fine, then ban cis-women with unnaturally high testosterone.
Yet the end result is the same, an advantage over those that don’t have it. Why is one fair and one unfair?
Sport is arbitrary rules we decide. Some trans athletes are going to be better at some sports, not because of their trans status but because they work hard and train lots. It is just as unfair to exclude them in case another trans athlete has a genetic advantage, that most research says they don’t have.
Yep. T level testing was a popular trans exclusionary test until the transphobes learned that there’s significant overlap in t levels between trans women and cis women.
This was one of the Onion’s more brilliant articles. Absolutely loved it. I showed it to someone who rants about trans girls in sports and they got quiet. The truly good Onion articles make the object of their satire instantly recognize the logical fallacies in their own argument and get uncomfortable.
Should a trans woman be allowed to beat the shit out of a woman in a UFC fight? I’m not questioning this person’s decision to transition, I’m questioning the rule that separates genders in sports (the UFC thing has happened and it resulted in a broken skull).
Why don’t you ask a woman fighting in the UFC? I’m sure you think you’re white knighting for them but those women are tough as nails. They aren’t death matches and all through my wrestling career if a woman wanted to wrestle they had to join the regular team. I wouldn’t doubt a woman UFC fighter having a long history or competing with men.
Unpopular opinion (on Lemmy and coming from a guy who doesn’t have an issue with trans people): Transpeople are people too and aren’t going to just go die and a ditch because the thought of losing to one makes you upset.
I used to have strong opinions about this, but then I realised that I’m not trans, I’m not female, I’m not an athlete, and to be completely honest, I couldn’t care less about women’s sports. And judging by the fact that a women’s premier league football ticket costs about £5 and the stadiums are mostly empty, most other people don’t care either. Certainly less than seem to care about the sanctity of women’s sports.
It’s probably going to be more complex than a blanket yes or no, and will involve individual sports bodies doing things on a case-by-case basis.
Pick your battles, people. Insisting that trans women be allowed to compete in women’s sports is just not a winning argument, even among people that might be willing to otherwise oppose other trans restrictions. All it does in reinforce anti-trans attitudes.
Let’s just leave behind some human beings from being allowed to participate in life, why even let them be in society at all, maybe they should be sent away for the convenience of picking political battles
How is sports the only aspect of life? And even then, they are not blocked from participating, as they can complete with other cis-men in those divisions. It’s interesting, trans men don’t have this issue because they simply can’t compete with cis men. I guess they don’t get to participate in life by your definition?
Having a featherweight division in boxing helps, but there is no issue because there is no advantage. But, again, trans men that can compete with cis men are rare, although not nonexistent.
Sometimes you make a decision in life that affects your future in a meaningful way. Becoming a trans is one of those things. Sadly there’s no good solution to the problem it causes in sports right now so the only possible answer is to not have them in the competition.
They are not saying to leave them behind, and comparing this to not participating in life is an unfair exaggeration. The situation is far too complicated for that. It’s not just about politics here, there’s other people involved that would be put at a disadvantage, others that would abuse the situation to gain money, etc.
And yes, I’m well aware of the injustice being done to trans people on every possible level, and that needs to change, this battle itself though is just not the same.
*Edit: I’m reading further down that this “problem” it causes might not be as big as I heard it was in the media. So take this comment with that in mind if you will. It only proves the complexity of the issue though.
Except there is no choice involved. Its not “becoming trans” anymore than its “becoming tall” or “becoming gay”. Those are all things you are born with. Now a trans person may choose to medically transition or not; they are still trans either way. “Trans” and “cis” are adjectives and both are things you are born with regardless of what you do about it.
Also, what you are saying applies to the individual. For the government, and for things such as these sporting events, they will not ‘be’ female until they undergo their transformation.
Unpopular opinion (on Lemmy and coming from a guy who doesn’t have an issue with trans people): you shouldn’t be allowed to compete in sports that have biological birth sex restrictions as a trans athlete if it puts you at an advantage. So basically, if you were born biologically male, you shouldn’t be allowed to compete in female sports–even after you’ve transitioned.
My niece is a competitive swimmer. If a trans woman kept her from winning the competitions she’s trained so hard for, getting up at 4am for practice, spending weekends training or at meets, etc, thats absolute horse shit.
If we're considering testosterone to be a PED, perhaps we should ban everyone from sports...
On a more serious note: why not advocate for putting people into "testosterone-level groups", similar to how boxing, etc, do it with weight classes? Rather than just excluding trans women from competing.
I also feel I have to ask: how do you feel about your niece losing in competitions to cis women who have biological advantages, such as higher (natural) testosterone levels, longer limbs, bigger hands, smaller busts, etc?
There is more to it than just “current testosterone levels” because (like you mention in your question at the end) biological birth sex as a male would likely afford the person with a larger frame, muscles/skeletal structure, bigger hands, longer legs, etc.
And to answer your question: no I wouldn’t have a problem with cis women competing with each other. Obviously, natural differences exist and set people apart. But sport and competition is predicated on a foundation of fair play, personal excellence, and mutual respect among participants.
Any artificial advantage or thumb on the scale, for whatever reason, undermines the integrity of the competition, devalues the effort of athletes, and erodes the spirit of the game.
Naturally occurring differences like extra testosterone, height, or flexibility might be advantages but they aren’t unfair because they are inherent to the individual’s unique physiology and not externally imposed or artificially enhanced. That’s the line we’ve drawn for sport and competition for centuries.
My niece is a competitive swimmer. If a trans woman kept her from winning the competitions she’s trained so hard for, getting up at 4am for practice, spending weekends training or at meets, etc, thats absolute horse shit.
So if that trans woman also worked hard, got up at 4am for practice, and also spent weekends training and going to meets, she doesn’t deserve to win after her own hard work?
Just a note, there’s some studies that have shown that a massive proportion of high tier female athletes actually have chromeosone issues that would put them into the intersex category.
I’ve heard the same argument from ‘whataboutist’ rightoids from Reddit when they started bitching about Lia Thomas and people blaming Katey Ledecky, a cis woman, for being trans. Also, this same group loves to bitch about Fallon Fox forget about Patricio Manuel, complain about Nyla Rose and twist the story about Mack Beggs.
If your niece loses then maybe you should teach her to lose gratefully rather than just jumping to blame someone else for her shortcomings no matter their gender, height, weight, natural talents, hormone levels, zodiac sign, etcetera
I don’t know any of those names except Katey ledecky.
My niece is a great sport and competes mostly against herself and works on beating her times. I don’t even know how she’d feel about something like that. She’s a great kid and she’d probably grin and bear it.
But I think it’d be horse shit if she had to. We separated men and women’s sports for a reason. We dont let 20 year olds compete in little league. We don’t let Olympians use performance enhancing drugs. Competition and sport needs some bounds for fair play.
Ensuring a level playing field is crucial, acknowledging natural talents and physical differences, while drawing a line at artificial or external enhancements that could skew competition. It’s about maintaining the spirit of fairness and respect in sport, so everyone has the opportunity to compete and excel based on their natural abilities and dedication.
At an elite level? Where it’s your source of income? Where you stand to inspire young girls?
If women’s sport is opened to biological males, it is only a matter of time until the top level is entirely dominated by biological males. In most physical sports college men regularly beat women’s world records. It’s just simply not fair.
Yes.
I work like other people.
Coaching and community events.
It’s like you don’t see women who happen to be trans as women.
Maybe your elementary school understanding of this isn’t the best.
That’s easy. We just declare “woman” has no solid meaning, it is just whoever says they are a woman. Then we will declare there are zero biological differences between the sexes, some women are just stronger than you. Get gud, scrub. Go against any of these declarations, you are the bigot.
Really depends. For people that never went through puberty of their birth sex there’s effectively no difference in terms of strength.
After adulthood it’s definitely debatable, after a few years of treatment physical capabilities mostly align but not entirely, and while unlikely it would kinda suck for the rest if someone did win olympic gold bc of anatomy differences or something (plus countries with a history of cheating potentially could abuse it by sending an athlete that is not actually on HRT). I also don’t think the ability to compete in high level sports is anywhere near a fundamental human right.
However it would also suck for the transwoman in question having to choose between high level competition in the sport they likely poured their life into and transitioning (as there is no way a transwoman on HRT could ever compete at the highest level vs males in sports unless it’s something where cis women can, too).
Personally I’d argue for pro sports requiring proof of consistent HRT for x amount of time (based on studies of at what point physical capabilitues are equal for the vast majority) should be sufficient. If against all odds we end up with a disproportionate amount of transwomen winning competitions (we won’t) rules could still be changed.
At an amateur level it makes very little sense to restrict transfems, the difference isn’t great after a while on HRT and so much of the point of amateur sports is usually on a social level that if you restrict transpeople from playing/competing with their own gender, you will often remove a large reason for wanting to do that sport in the first place.
When climbing started to become a televised sport, they changed the entire format to support televised timings. When they have athletes who are way taller or way shorter, the routes etter needs to take that into account for the setting for the comp.
Honestly, I think the sports and or rulesets could take a pass and see if there’s anything they can do to find a middle ground that can suit trans-athletes and cis-gendered athletes more equally.
That’s said - I’m not very competitive of me, so my opinions Wil always be biased. While I think competitions push the sports I also have seen firsthand the toxicity and negativity high level sports bring. So basically, I think inclusivity and sportsmanship is more important that integrity of the competitive nature.
Ah yes, being male means that you are always better at all sports than female sportspeople. The mark of maleness is so strong that even after you are no longer male, the maleness lingers and makes you powerful enough to have an unfair advantage and beat all the women. /s
No transperson kept your niece from winning, did they? It’s a boogeyman waved before you to justify making people feel excluded from society because they challenge gender norms.
If a transwoman ever beats my daughter at sport…I’ll be proud of the team for being inclusive. If a transwoman outperforms my daughter and obtains a scholarship ahead of her…I’ll ask why scholarships have to pay for her education.
Are trans women keeping her from winning competitions? Last I heard they aren’t dominating anything.
getting up at 4am for practice, spending weekends training or at meets, etc
Nice job on the appeal to emotion too. It isn’t like trans people still have to put in the work to do well and have their own challenges to overcome. They have to compensate greatly.
To be clear about my opinion on trans people in sports (because we always ignore transmen here), I am waiting for sports and exercise scientists to do more research and make more conclusions. The science is too nebulous on it. Women’s medicine is centuries behind, and trans medicine even further.
1 out of how many? Should we discount feats of atheletes like Lebron James or Michael Phelps?
And to be clear once again, I want more information and data and science behind this. Is this win an anomaly? Due to some biological advantage Thomas has? Is it because they were born male or is there something else? What is the overall data looking for competition?
And once again we’re talking about high level competition which needs it’s own set of rules. For lower division or tiers I don’t think it matters that much.
Lia had a very close win in a meet where she mostly placed in the middle of the pack. She wasn’t dominating the meet. Using her well deserved win as an example of “dominating women’s sports” is at the very least extremely disingenuous and amounts to exactly what I identified as the thrust of the example for your argument.
Man, I wish we lived in a world where everyone could celebrate with Lia and her struggles weren’t trivialized by an adolescent understanding of the world instigated by toxic conservative ideology.
Brave to transition. Brave to compete. Brave to win despite no one wanting her to.
As someone who is constantly cast as the underdog, who has to overcome that narrative, Lias story is my story and I’m happy for her.
I’m not attacking her or trivializing her athletic abilities. But pretending that she doesn’t have an unfair advantage over her competition isn’t a good solution to the problem. Sports are separated by gender for good reason. Lia transitioned later in life after she went through male puberty.
Women’s sports are important and must be protected.
The problem is she’s trans. The most important thing to these people is trans people should be treated as lesser woman. If the Michael Jordan of woman swimmI ng showed up and started crushing all the competition because of biological advantage they would have no problem. Even if genetically she was intersex as long as she was born with a vigina she would be “playing fair.” There is nothing fair about the genetic lottery and competition isn’t about beating every other competitor. At the end of the day these people can’t let go of, “not getting a trophy” and that’s thier biggest issue.
I don’t think people care in friendly matches, but people forget how many young girls’ lives are impacted through scholarships or grants given through high school sports. When these competitions can change the course of your life, perceived fairness becomes much more important, not just for the athletes but their families as well.
My experience has been that even suggesting that someone might not be a hateful monster for questioning trans involvement in competitive sports, gets you banned from communities, and labeled a transphobe on Lemmy.
You realize that most trans women undergoing HRT have less testosterone in their systems than many of their cisgender competitors, right? Women naturally have some testosterone in their body; if they have PCOS, then they have a lot (in comparison to other cis women). Trans women on HRT take medicine to block testosterone, so while their body might generate the most of all, the amount bioavailable to them after the medicine neutralizes it is less than non-PCOS cis women have. If the sports debate was about testosterone providing an unfair advantage, then we would ban cis women with PCOS from competing, but we don’t.
In the case of teenagers, it’s even simpler - contrary to propaganda, very very few doctors are willing to put a minor on HRT. Instead, they simply give them puberty blockers to delay the onset of puberty until they’re over 18 and can decide for themselves whether to go on HRT or not. So, a 17yo trans girl is developmentally equivalent to a 10yo boy - her muscles are massively under developed compared to any of her cis competitors.
So whether adult or teen, a trans woman winning at sports is not someone with an unfair advantage; rather, it’s someone with a massive disadvantage managing to win despite her handicap.
Yes we understand that but biologically born males are still winning sports competitions when pitted against biological women. It’s a fact and it’s a problem. They need to be taken out of the competition or given their first place alongside with giving the real woman a first place who actually came in first place as a real woman. In these situations I think would be okay to have two first places if that trans man woman feels so strongly about competing in these athletic competitions.
It's not a problem because it's not happening to any meaningful degree. Trans women continue to be under, not overrepresented in high end sports, because there isn't a meaningful advantage after a couple of years of HRT. Please provide examples of this problem you claim exists.
When the punishment for expressing yourself on the matter is immediate aggression, and being labeled a bigot and transphobe, possibly getting kicked out of school and losing everything you’ve worked towards up to this point, we can’t rely on women coming forward.
You know… like the same circumstances women face standing up for themselves in every other aspect of their lives.
Which is, of course, why randomized anonymous surveys with large sample sizes show that this is actually a thing for a large number of women who are just too terrified to speak up oh no they don't, damn. Kind of cuts the legs out from under that sort of "silent majority" argument, which is almost always used to advertise the views of the noisy minority.
To you. To the women performing in these sports, it means quite a bit more. Riley Gaines, Taylor Silverman acre two who have been very outspoken about their experiences. Most people feel pressured to not speak up, lest they be labeled a bigot.
Riley Gaines, who tied for fifth behind a number of cis women? Yeah, she looked at her future in sport and decided that grifting was easier and would pay better.
Taylor Silverman, the skateboarder? You want to tell me about the super secret male advantage she lost to? I'm not seeing it. Are you going to claim that banning trans women from chess was reasonable too?
People who are speaking up about this are bigots and sore losers. Trans women don't win disproportionately, there's no meaningful advantage, and all anyone ever has are anecdotes, almost all of which fail to check out to any meaningful degree. Riley Gaines didn't even go down a slot so what the fuck do you want here? Trans women don't get to compete, regardless of fairness? Because if so, say it with your fuckin chest. Don't try to pretend it's about fairness.
It’s “been in the news” because it’s an alt right “wedge issue”. There is nothing meaningful here other than to advance hateful ideology to rubes, both siders, and those looking to be anti trans with plausibility
Your second link didn't load for me. Your first was a propaganda network with a woman complaining about a trans girl being beaten by two cis girls. Ki d of seems like the girl in fourth should have been practicing harder like the girls in first and second did. Your news sources are lying, shading the truth, and using loaded language, to make and keep you angry so you don't make good decisions in life, and you should consider getting new sources.
Is current testosterone the only consideration? Or could having higher testosterone earlier, even though you’re on par with peers now, give you a musculoskeletal advantage?
There are some published studies but I won’t link them because they are very specific. They tracked thigh or quad muscles specifically. Feel free to look them up though.
Building muscle is a lot more difficult for me. You could politely ask any trans people if you have more questions about transitioning.
Also don’t worry about saying the wrong thing, you’re all good.
that sports argument is so disingenous, “newspaper” headlines were screaming about a woman who finished a marathon at 14000th place in common bracket and 6000th in female only bracket
No dramatic change is needed. Athletic boards need to provide guidance on who will be accepted to compete and athletes with have to decide if they can abide by those rules. Many of us chose not to compete, it’s no sin.
Most trans women aren’t in competitive sports. The conversation isn’t about MOST trans women. It’s a trans strawman people use to call others bigots when they want to look like they have statistics on their side.
It actually doesn’t. Studies show that trans women perform on par with cis women in athletics. This wishy-washy attitude essentially amounts to “you can only participate if you lose”
Here’s an NPR article interviewing a known geneticist and talking about Trans Athletes. Their general consensus is that there is a lack of data to make an assertion one way or the other for if trans athletes have an edge. And that’s without taking into account the vast differences between each individual trans person and where they’re at genetically/hormonally. Trans athletes aren’t a monolith that are all the same, they can have fundamentally different circumstances and genetics between each person.
Honestly any automatic ban of trans-athletes is stupid. Michael Phelps has a natural genetic advantage when it comes to swimming, but no one of note is coming for his gold medals or saying he can’t compete.
There’s not a huge amount of data about this yet, and the true patterns will become more apparent as we have more data, but the data we do have suggests no inherit advantage over cisgender female athletes.
Please try not to use your own understanding of a subject as a measure of its possibility…its an unreliable metric.
You asked for a link to available research and rexeives one. I’m sorry it didn’t match your pre-conceived notions. Welcome to science, where we make the best decisions we can based on available evidence. The evidence that currently exists says there’s little to indicate a difference exists. Do you have a better suggestion aside from just making up some data and seeing what that says?
You literally linked something that says they don’t have enough evidence to come to a conclusion, it’s completely worthless and you only linked it because you agree with it
Males are stronger and bigger than females so I don’t think we have to think very deeply about whether it’s equal in sports.
My understanding is still that chicks with dicks are on average bigger and stronger than chicks without dicks.
You are using a source that literally says “we don’t have enough information to come to a conclusion, but here’s what we do have” and presenting it as fact because you agree with it. I would call your understanding quite unreliable.
What we do have enough information on is the differences between the male and female body. Studied for centuries. There are significant differences between the two that lend themselves to physical advantages. Pretending biological males are not at a physical advantage over females is absurd and not based in any kind of science or reality.
Except science and reality as it exists today. I literally stated up front that there was little evidence. That doesn’t change what the existing evidence shows.
Available evidence indicates trans women who have undergone testosterone suppression have no clear biological advantages over cis women in elite sport. • The higher levels of red blood cell count experienced by cis men is removed within the first four months of testosterone suppression; • There is no basis for athletic advantage conferred by bone size or density, other than advantages achieved through height. Elite athletes tend to have higher than average height across genders, and above-average height is not currently classified as an athletic advantage requiring regulation; • On average, trans women who are pre-testosterone suppression still have lower Lean Body Mass (LBM), Cross Section Area (CSA), and strength than cis males. This indicates that the performance benefit experienced by these individuals cannot be generalized by examining cis male athletes; • Non-athletic trans women experience significant reduction in LBM, CSA, and strength loss within 12 months of hormonal suppression. It is important to note that this 12-month threshold is arbitrarily defined, and no significant studies examine the rate of LBM, CSA or strength reduction over time; • When adjusting for height and fat mass, LBM, CSA, and strength after 12 months of testosterone suppression, trans women still retained statistically higher levels than sedentary cis women. However, this difference is well within the normal distribution of LBM, CSA, and strength for cis women (Jassen et al., 2000); • LBM, CSA, and strength loss continues for trans women after the 12month initial testosterone suppression; • The limited available evidence examining the effect of testosterone suppression as it directly affects trans women’s athletic performance showed no athletic advantage exists after one year of testosterone suppression (Harper, 2015; Roberts et al., 2020; Harper, 2020); • Post gonad removal, many trans women experience testosterone levels far below that of pre-menopausal cis women. 5
The issue that I think is highlighted by the article is that it presupposes that the transathlete is undergoing hormone suppression. That isn’t a prerequisite to participate in most sports, and to require it would require disclosing more detailed medical information than might be prudent.
So, while the study is small, it is also not representative of many instances of trans athleticism. A transwoman not on HRT is just as much a woman as one who’s been on it for years, according to advocates, and should be equally eligible to participate in women’s sports. If that belief isn’t held, you’ll be labeled a transphobe and bigot as well. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
You’re a bigot because of your reactionary response to a situation that doesn’t exist. I can make up a scenario in my head and get upset about it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s happening. And you’ve been doing it all over this thread and projecting that anger onto trans people.
A transwoman not on HRT is just as much a woman as one who’s been on it for years, according to advocates
You’re also transphobic for implying that trans women not taking HRT are less women than those that do. They’re just women, all of them.
Not to mention the bigotry, the prejudice, the psychological trauma of existing in a world where people call you evil and an abomination and a cheat for merely wanting to play sports.
The ones that earn you grants and scholarships? The ones that can get you admission to good schools? Those ones that can help break a cycle of poverty that existed in your family for generations? Those meaningless old things!
Wait I thought people could be trans without medical treatments and counseling because gender identity is a construct and not reliant on one’s secondary or primary sex characteristics but rather reliant on their decision to identify with a gender they were not assigned at birth. Like I get it is the onion, but I thought people who think you have to have gender dysphoria or medically transition are called “transmedicalists,” and much like “terf” I’m fairly sure “transmedicalist” isn’t a compliment.
I’m not trans though so I could be wrong, but this is how it was clearly described to me by a nonbinary individual, a trans man, and a trans woman, all of whom I am friends with and one of whom I was dating at the time, so if I misunderstand so do they, I didn’t make it up myself.
My point of view is that if it was just a decision for someone that’d be alright and should be supported nonetheless. That being said I’ve never met someone who is trans and claims it was a choice.
If it’s ‘just’ a construct then it is a fundamental one that occurs at a very young age and you can’t just simply change that, so it’s not really a choice. Like the trunk of a tree.
Also there are many reasons not to transition medically. There are many risks involved and requires considerable resources. For example getting facial hair removed can take 30 sessions, so even if it’s free it costs you a lot of time.
Imagine you woke up in the wrong body tomorrow. Sure, you want to go back to the right body, but you might be OK with it as long as the people around you just see you for who you are. This can be done with a social transition, some clothing and makeup.
It is true that you don’t need medical treatments and counseling to be trans. However, specifically within the context of gendered sports, the places that do allow trans athletes to compete with other members of their gender tend to require testing of hormone levels. When I’ve seen trans people talk about the sports issue, they’ve been fine with this, often using it as an argument why it’s OK for trans people to compete with cis people of the same gender. Most of the stories reactionaries are trying to scare people with are about trans kids who have undergone medical gender affirming care.
So, yeah, I think there’s some nuance lost here, but given that it’s satire with punchy writing, I don’t think it’s terf-level. But I’m cis and I’d be happy to be corrected.
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