Hamas has repeatedly rejected any kind of temporary ceasefire. I can’t see why this would be any different.
Was Hamas even involved in the drafting of this deal or did the US and Israel just throw this together to paint Hamas as unreasonable when they reject it again? None of the articles I’ve read have made any effort to clarify who drew this up beyond vaguely gesturing at Israel, US, and Egypt.
As best as I can find this is basically a deal that gives Israel it’s biggest ask in exchange for maybe not bombing during Ramadan. So yeah something they cooked up to make Hamas look unreasonable.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. I don’t know what the terms of this one are, but past cease fires have basically required Hamas to surrender. Giving up their only leverage, hostages, and allowing IDF to strictly control everyone and everything going in and out of Gaza, free to shut off power and water as they feel, and block aid.
As you say, they have very little leverage. What they can offer is returning the hostages and a guarantee of safety for Israel and in exchange, they can get peace and relative freedom. At this point they should probably negotiate for whatever they can get, because the alternative is complete destruction. Belligerence hasn't worked out well for them, perhaps they should try something else.
I wouldn't expect any trust and goodwill considering their stated goal is to genocide Jews and destroy Israel.
As you say, they have very little leverage. What they can offer is returning the hostages and a guarantee of safety for Israel and in exchange, they can get peace and relative freedom.
The only peace Gaza is getting out of an Israeli occupation is a worse version of the West Bank.
Yeah, which is why this shit is still going on. Hamas would be extremely naive to think a temporary ceasefire is anything more than a promise to start bombing again later after they’ve refreshed their troops and stockpiled more weapons.
Hamas has repeatedly rejected any kind of temporary ceasefire.
Palestinian officials have advocated for a permanent ceasefire, with the expectation that any concessions they extract from the Israelis will be forfeit as soon as a temporary ceasefire closes.
Was Hamas even involved in the drafting of this deal
Right now, the primary advocates on behalf of the Palestinians are Qatari and Egyptian officials with sympathies toward their Arab neighbors. Any actual members of Hamas have been playing cat-and-mouse with Israeli assassins, which has in turn made the Israeli demands for a proper accounting of hostages very difficult.
After all, if you clearly state how many hostages survived the carpet-bombing of Northern Gaza, the Israelis can use that figure to coordinate their strikes in and around the southern end.
Egypt is essentially preparing a concentration camp in Sinai to house refugees from a seemingly inevitable Rafah campaign. I have some doubts about how well they’re advocating for Palestine’s interests.
The interests of Palestinians and the interests of Hamas aren’t the same thing. Egypt is doing the right thing by building refugee camps. But they also don’t want Hamas to be able to move freely in their country and link up with elements of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Hamas is a terrorist organization, it’s a tricky balance between helping the Palestinian people without giving the Hamas terrorists among them free movement in Egypt.
A lot of Hamas will die. The question is, how many Palestinian civilians do you want to die along with them?
Their interests seem pretty aligned on the issue of stopping the genocide. I don’t know what other interests you think they have that conflict with the well being of Palestinians but I doubt they’re even in the same ballpark as that extremely pressing, immediate issue.
Have you learned nothing from the “war on terror”? You can’t kill a distributed, loosely connected, highly entrenched resistance by bombing it away. If America couldn’t manage it in Iraq, what makes you think America Jr. is gonna pull it off? Shoving Palestinians off their land is the goal here, not killing Hamas.
Also fuck you for calling Egypt enclosing an undeveloped patch of desert with a wall a “refugee camp”. Clown.
Do you see the distinction between the US fighting a war on the other side of the world and Israel fighting against terrorists within home made rocket range?
The US had the option to pull out. Israel does not have the same options. Their survival is on the line.
People egging on the Palestinians to do more violence are just getting Palestinians killed. These backwards medieval notions that it’s like the crusades and Israel will just go away is just getting people killed and accomplishing nothing else. It’s this “River to the Sea” bullshit that’s causing women and children to get killed in the crossfire between psychopaths and a modern military. As it goes on Palestinians get less and less. But the asshole oil-rich Arabs that fund them and the psychos in Iran that arm them don’t give a shit. Palestinians are just being used as cannon fodder to make wealthy Arabs not feel completely humiliated over all the wars they lost against Israel.
because I think you have bad intentions. Like you will post this to show that Israel are ready for ceasefire but Hamas is the the one that doesn’t want to compromise. I might be wrong. Anyway, that’s why I asked you.
“Israel is not sending a delegation to Cairo for talks on a deal for a ceasefire and release of hostages from Gaza, an Israeli official told CNN Sunday.”
“Another diplomatic source played down the prospects of an imminent deal, saying progress was slow and it was unlikely there would be a breakthrough within the next 48 hours.”
The official said the reason was that Hamas had not responded to two Israeli demands: a list of hostages specifying which are alive and which are dead; and confirmation of the ratio of Palestinian prisoners to be released from Israeli prisons in exchange for hostages.
This is in theory what we're waiting on. That sounds reasonable at first glance, but we do have to remember that we are only hearing from one side.
Rabbi Colonel Eyal Karim’s remarks 14 years ago stirred controversy at the time and remain on an Israeli religious website today
He responded that in the interests of maintaining warriors’ morale and fighting fitness during armed conflict, it was permitted to “satisfy the evil inclination by lying with attractive Gentile women against their will”.
His nomination on Monday as the military’s head rabbi by its chief of staff revived public debate over Karim. Yedioth Ahronoth, Israel’s best-selling newspaper, weighed in with a front-page headline that read: “New chief military rabbi: rape is permissible in a war”.
The independent experts affiliated with the U.N. Human Rights Council said the allegations constitute “egregious human rights violations,” adding to criticisms of the Israeli war effort in Gaza as its military reportedly prepares a ground invasion of Rafah.
“We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers,” the experts said. “At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence.”
The release adds that some photographs of women in degrading circumstances had been distributed online by Israeli soldiers.
There has, to my knowledge, not been a single first-hand account of a woman saying “I was raped by Hamas”. All of it is based on anonymous eye witnesses, dead bodies Israel assures us were raped, or doctors speaking on behalf of returned hostages they refuse to name and have yet to come forward.
For as much rape as supposedly went on it sure is strange that there aren’t at least a few victims speaking of their experiences, if only just to confirm it happened. I’m happy to believe women when there are women to believe.
There has, to my knowledge, not been a single first-hand account of a woman saying “I was raped by Hamas”.
No sudden influx of women into Israeli rape crisis centers, either. No hospitals on record with a surge of sexual assault victims. It appears to be an entirely fabricated claim, intended to deflect the more embarrassing nature of the incident (Palestinian rebels overwhelming a poorly administered IDF checkpoint) by re-contextualizing a kind of massive prison break as a Clockwork Orange orgy of ultra-violence.
I’m happy to believe women when there are women to believe.
Well, unless they’re Palestinian women, in which case they can’t be trusted because they are Hamas.
It’s impossible to avoid bias. I’m much more concerned with credibility from multiple independent sources to get to a comprehensive history of the conflict and a way to resolution.
It’s impossible to avoid bias completely. It’s very much possible to recognize your bias and train yourself to have emotional detachment from a given subject. Ask a Buddhist monk, or a seasoned intelligence analyst.
Philosophical ramble below, you can stop reading here if you’re not in the mood.
Most people unfortunately never get to the stage of realizing they can detach themselves from emotional bias, so they read and believe whatever they have already read and believe and want to be true.
Side note: it’s much easier when you’re on the spectrum, or learned as a child to shut your emotions off (I’m not sure this can be learned in adulthood). It seems like many victims of childhood abuse take it in the other direction - emotional overreaction.
Over the last five months we’ve witnessed more than 30,600 Palestinians killed, more than 12,300 children and 6,300 women killed by Israel. With more than 70,000 injured. 99 Journalists killed too.
We’ve seen over 360,000 homes destroyed. Nearly 400 schools, 267 Places of Worship, over 130 water wells bombed and destroyed. 23 out of 35 Hospitals don’t function anymore since they’ve gotten shelled. With the other 12 only partially functioning. Over 85% of everyone in Gaza has been displaced.
Millions are at extreme risk of starvation and disease brought by a deliberate famine and water crisis.
Emotional detachment of things one has no personal involvement in, in order to see the situation as clearly as possible. If you are living in Gaza or have family or a good friend there then yes it’s much harder and maybe nearly impossible. I can also understand the need for emotional attachment to feel purpose by campaigning against something, but again, attachment is the enemy of objectivity.
What do you mean, I listed objective facts about what has happened in Gaza in the last five months. I think awareness is important, there is a lot of misinformation. And I am involved, my taxes fund and defend this.
The US has been supplying Israel with these weapons, knowing exactly what they are being used for, and defending Israel on the international stage by vetoing UN ceasefire resolutions repeatedly.
I don’t get what you’re advocating for. Do you support or oppose ethnic cleansing?
I can’t believe you linked some weird article to say “Why should I feel bad for them? I don’t even know those people!”
I hope you’re not seriously comparing Palestinians dying, or anyone for that matter, to an actual animal. Is being apathetic to animals also part of your argument?
I advocate for Palestinian emancipation because they are human and deserve basic human and civil rights, like everyone.
Immediately, I would prefer an actual permanent ceasefire and an end to the decade long permanent occupation. I would prefer the apartheid state to be dismantled and a new state with equal rights for both Israelis and Palestinians to take its place. For the millions of Palestinians refugees to have the Right of Return.
You mean the annexation of at least 60% of the West Bank since 1967 with Palestinians subject to Military Law, weaponized Setter Violence, denied civil rights, denied rights to movement, water, and property?
Due to the de facto annexation of the West Bank, a Two-State Solution is no longer a practical solution. The West Bank has been divided into bantustans and require an expulsion of hundreds of thousands of settlers. It’s been a one-state reality because of the Settlements built by Israel on the West Bank. Which is why a single Binational State that would ensure equal rights for all Palestinians and Israelis is the most viable resolution.
You’re denying the investigative journalists by multiple major Human Rights Organizations, including B’TSelem (a Jewish Israeli Human Rights Org operating within Israel), detailing exactly how Israel is guilty of the Crime of Apartheid by the definitions laid out by the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (Apartheid Convention) and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (Rome Statute). You could read the first few pages of any of those reports I linked, calling them childish is laughable.
A war crime is literally a crime that happens during a war.
Crime occurs in normal day to day life too. Both of these things are terrible.
What’s important is those who do the crimes (whether in war or otherwise) face justice. Generally Israel prosecutes soldiers that commit crimes. I find it doubtful Palestinians will prosecute Yahya Sinwar for his war crimes.
But, at the moment, it’s war crimes vs. bigger war crimes. The question is, is the perpetrator of war crimes willing to stop war crimes when it’s the only conceivable leverage to stop bigger war crimes? Big war crimes likely doesn’t give a fuuuuuck about the little war crimes though - they literally killed the hostages in several situations. They are just pitching a tent because it’s an excuse for them to do even bigger war crimes.
See condemning Hamas is a joke to you. I see people cosplaying as Hamas as Palestine protests. Cosplaying as genocidal maniacs.
Condemning Hamas would have been the smart move for the Palestinian movement. But it’s too dominated by hatred to make smart moves. Which is why it’s only the young and naive that support it.
I see people cosplaying as Hamas as Palestine protests. Cosplaying as genocidal maniacs.
I can’t take you seriously.
First, Israel has committed war crimes against Palestinians for decades. When nobody plays by the rules there is no point in quoting the rules.
Very few people condone killing civilians or taking hostages. Most people support the liberation of the Palestinian people and peace.
Which is why it’s only the young and naive that support it.
Only the naive think that the situation is anywhere near as cut and dry as you seem to imply it is. And only the gullible think any fraction of the population worth mentioning are cosplaying as or celebrating the actions of Hamas.
And only the gullible think any fraction of the population worth mentioning are cosplaying as or celebrating the actions of Hamas.
This isn’t being called out, people just looking the other way.
A lot of people will say Netanyahu is a horrible leader. And in all likelihood he’ll be gone in the next election. Nobody is willing to call out Hamas, or any Palestinian leadership. So Palestinians will always be stuck with bad leaders. It’s why this conflict was inevitable. Hamas would never be removed by Palestinians, they’d be stuck with them forever if it weren’t for this current action. Too much support from naive people.
“Talks took place in Doha, the Qatari capital, on Saturday and were expected to move to Cairo on Sunday as the scale of looming starvation pushed the US to start air-dropping food into the enclave.”
The Israeli agreement apparently happened in Doha, but won’t be official until they sign the agreement in Cairo… where they may not actually show up.
It’s passed Sunday into Monday, so we’ll see where it goes, but I’m frankly not optimistic.
Its curious to see how the media narrative has turned in the wake of some of these primary votes. Biden’s gone from “Israel can do no wrong” to “We’re doing everything we can (short of denying them more weapons and diplomatic cover at the UN) to stop these atrocities”.
I have to wonder what happens as we close in on the general election and Trump goes all in on being pro-Palestinian genocide. Do the Democrats rediscover their love of human rights and rules based international order? Or do they all double back and try to out-compete the Republicans on the “We Love Israel” front?
It goes a bit beyond that, even. Israel is pivotal to the control of the Suez canal and a point of military access into the Persian Gulf for Western forces. They’re the guard dog of the Middle East, a central trading hub between the Mediterranean and the Indian Ocean, and an agricultural hub in a region notorious for drought. There are lots of reasons to support Zionism that go beyond just getting a bundler with an AIPAC affiliation channeling donor cash in your direction.
To quote old Smoke’n Joe Biden, “If Israel did not exist, we would have to invent it.”
We uhh… we actually control the Suez. Well the Egyptians administer it. But the Sinai Peninsula is a UN peacekeeping mission. Which always has an American Infantry Battalion deployed.
The writer said in an article in Maariv newspaper that “the outbreak of the January revolution coincided with the Israeli security assessment that President-elect Mohamed Morsi, a Muslim Brotherhood man, intended to cancel the peace agreement with Israel and send more Egyptian military forces to the Sinai Peninsula.”
“At that stage, Israel was quick and willing to activate its diplomatic tools, and perhaps even greater means, to bring Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi to power in Egypt, and convince the then US administration under President Barack Obama not to oppose this move.”
Sisi runs the intelligence from his presidential office and sends all agency reports to Israel. This is evidenced by the fact that the entire region is being arranged for the benefit of Israel, both politically and militarily. Egypt is now losing its authority over the Red Sea and oil wells, and is losing its ability to bypass water obstacles, and is also losing the Nile.
We have the CIA. We do not need a cut out to influence Egypt. And arranging the entire region to the benefit of a genocidal regime is going to cause a lot of problems as the years go on. We should cut them loose.
Edit to add - Intelligence flowing to Israel first is also a problem. We’ve caught Israel lying about intelligence stuff multiple times since October. I guarantee you we can get better quality intelligence by developing our own sources.
We have the CIA. We do not need a cut out to influence Egypt.
The CIA doesn’t operate in a vacuum. We’ve got the Five Eyes Intelligence Alliance throughout the western world. The CIA routinely collaborates with Mossad. And there have been numerous partnerships with the FSB and MSS during the Bush/Obama Eras of the War on Terror.
Edit to add - Intelligence flowing to Israel first is also a problem. We’ve caught Israel lying about intelligence stuff multiple times since October.
We’ve caught Israeli spies in the US going back to the 1950s. We still work with them regularly.
Israel didn't like the terms and they have most of the leverage, Anthony Blinken said there were a lot of "non-starters" in the offer. What exactly those were I don't think has been made public.
Soldiers wear uniforms. Hamas scumbags wear civilian clothing to blend in which causes an increase in civilian casualties. Which is the reason why non-uniformed combatants don’t get the same protections under international law as unformed combatants do.
The reason there's a massive security apparatus around Palestine is not to oppress Palestinians or impose racial hierarchy, it is because they have been trying to murder Jews for the last 70+ years.
The violence against Israel is the reason for this. Hamas is a cause of the violence. They create the very situation they say they want to end.
If they want the walls to come down and the blockade to end, they need to show a commitment to peace, rather than a commitment to genocide.
The violence against Palestinians is the reason for this. Zionism/Israel is a cause of the violence. They create the very situation they say they want to end.
If they want the walls to come down and the blockade to end, they need to show a commitment to peace, rather than a commitment to genocide.
The violence started when Arab Nationalists started murdering Jews for legally buying land. Jews have been defending themselves ever since.
Unlike Israel, Palestine has no path to military victory. Constant belligerence is a self-inflicted wound for them; like someone who picks a fight with the bouncer every night then complains when they predictably get taken down and wind up with bruises.
I find it incredible that a trans person would simp for a society that would throw you off a building for being yourself.
I can confidently say that if Israel stops supporting settlers taking Palestinian homes, killing Palestinians indiscriminately, and no longer enforce apartheid Hamas would observe an end to violent hostilities.
It isn’t like Hamas can offer more than not being the instigator of violence, and if your calender goes back further than October you will see that Hamas arose to power in response to Israeli violence.
It's a nice thought and I'd hope the majority of the Palestinian people might... settle for that, but Hamas itself is founded on principles that are fairly extreme. Their charter is real rough, a paragraph early on about murdering all Jews everywhere is just the start.
Hamas has defined their government based on perpetual war and other problematic conditions. It's difficult to envision a lasting peace while they're still around.
They stated they'd accept a two-state solution in 2017, but honestly what they'd accept doesn't matter. They'd have two options: Adapt or go the way of the IRA.
I can confidently say that if Israel stops supporting settlers taking Palestinian homes, killing Palestinians indiscriminately, and no longer enforce apartheid Hamas would observe an end to violent hostilities.
I see thousands upon thousands of rockets launched by Hamas at civilians in Israel.
Hamas are a group of authoritarian goons that are paid by bitter oil-rich Arab billionaires to kill as many Jews as they can. If they stopped the money would dry up and some other group of authoritarian goons with Iranian made weapons would take their place. Their existence is dependent on hatred towards Israel, without that they wouldn’t exist.
They aren’t the rag tag group of freedom fighters your social media feed has led you to believe. They’re genocidal psychopaths that would slit your throat in your sleep if it would benefit them.
Did previous ceasefire attempts get any agreement? Or actually happen?
One difference is previous attempts were negotiated by Qatar, which has some influence with Hamas, while this was proposed by the US which has some influence with Israel. There’s also building global pressure to end the atrocities.
Especially since your phrasing appears to blame Israel, surely influence with Israel must give some hope?
More importantly, all you can do is keep trying until it sticks. I really think that’s a pattern regardless of the country or the violence: first attempt at a ceasefire rarely works but if you keep trying, it will eventually.
There was a short one earlier on for a shotage exchange. Since then Israel leaned even harder into ‘eradicating Hamas’ while slaughtering women and children as 3/4 of deaths, forced Palestinians into smaller ‘safe zones’, and other steps in genocide.
That is why there is reluctance to give up the hostages for a temporary ceasefire.
Being real, that depends on if Hamas and Israel want it. Seeing as Hamas literally has Israel’s destruction in their charter, any ceasefire is only temporary
Yes because "We'll let you do your thing for 6 weeks (and keep murdering and kidnapping your displaced homeless people) then continue genociding you" isn't a very attractive offer.
Biden and Hamas leaders said the aid convoy deaths could complicate negotiations for a ceasefire and hostage release deal. But Egyptian security sources said the incident had pushed both sides to intensify their efforts, in order to preserve progress made so far, Reuters reported.
Seems like the IDF firing into the crowds of starving refugees, causing crowd crush and killing over a 100 people and wounding 800+ was a really bad look, so Israel is onboard instead of threatening a Rafah ground assault.
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