'Everyone in the World Needs to See This': Footage Shows IDF Drone Killing Gazans

Adding to the mountain of evidence that Israel is engaged in a genocidal war on the Gaza Strip, Al Jazeera on Thursday aired footage of what the news outlet reported was an Israeli drone targeting four Palestinians in Khan Younis last month.

Those killed by the unmanned aerial vehicle in the rubble of the southern Gaza city appear to be unarmed teenagers or young men. According to a translation of the coverage, they were not identified in the reporting.

Tariq Kenney-Shawa, Al-Shabaka’s U.S. policy fellow, said: “This is among the worst footage I’ve seen. Not only were these boys clearly unarmed and present no threat whatsoever, but they were struck multiple times even after stumbling/crawling away. There is no way they could have been considered combatants. This is unreal.”

Atomic,

“Everyone in the world needs to see this” - Proceeds to not link what needs to be seen anywhere.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The thread has become rather long. It’s already posted down below but here it is again.

NSFL(Death + Gore): Video mirror

Bombings at 1:00, 1:50 and 2:15

And here is slo mo footage of the missles

NSFL (Death + Gore): imgur.com/a/e1XWdfY

Atomic,

I was talking about the author of the article. But thanks

UltraBlack,

question is how much of this shit is true

MeanEYE,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Mountain of evidence from Al Jazeera, but JerusalemPost and YNet are not to be trusted. I sense double-standards. Also, would love to see that mountain of evidence.

AmosBurton,

Aljazeera is exactly the same. You are just blind to it because it’s showing you what you want to see.

andy_wijaya_med,
@andy_wijaya_med@lemmy.world avatar

This is soooo fucked up. :(

Live_Let_Live, (edited )

it was hamas IED not an IDF drone

zazo,

Does the fact that’s an obvious lie (you can clearly see a second missile come from the top left) make you more or less likely to support the IDF? Anything’s fair in war and genocide right…

IndustryStandard, (edited )

There is video evidence that it’s a second missile posted in the comments already… Did you miss it?

Nsfl imgur.com/a/e1XWdfY

davepleasebehave,

care to come back on this comment?

DTFpanda,

Fucking morons will continue to vote for Genocide Joe anyway

ZeroTHM, (edited )

“Oh no, that’s so sad.” - Biden

"Finish the job. " - Trump

Pretty sure Palestine is cooked.

DTFpanda,

Cucked into believing he cares suddenly before an election? Meanwhile sending billions of dollars of weapons to Israel? Are you really that gullible? And no idea what Trump has to do with this. You’re right though, Palestine is cooked.

kenopsik,

Fucking morons will continue to vote for Genocide Joe anyway.

And no idea what Trump has to do with this.

Because Dictator Donnie is the only other option. Believing any other candidate is even a viable choice is delusional. American politics is fucked so voting for 3rd party is not remotely helpful. You either vote for Joe or are complicit in the MAGA agenda.

DTFpanda,

This thinking is why you only have two options. This thinking is designed by the establishment to get you to vote for shit sandwich A or shit sandwich B. But you know what, you actually do have power with your vote to either not use it, or to vote for someone other than a shit sandwich. So while you are more than welcome to continue eating shit, I’m tired of it. A vote for uncommitted, a vote for Bernie Sanders, a vote for Princess Unicorn, etc, does not in any way shape or form equal a vote “for the other guy.” Blame me all you want, but it’s people like you who keep voting for genocidal geriatrics for why we’re stuck in this miserable corporate-run “democracy.”

TheControlled,

I want an objective, non-obsessive-downvoter, explanation as to how anyone in the world knows what really happened? I understand this question feels smarmy, but there so much emotion in this. But how do we know these guys weren’t Hamas?

Please just be chill, I’m not picking a fight or anything like that.

scorpious,

youtu.be/2vI1il5DkQQ

TheControlled,

This is very interesting.

Prandom_returns,

Nobody knows. It’s just that people are now so riled up that they would amplify anything and everything that aligns with their view.

And titles like “Everybody needs to see this” are just annoying.

But seeing that two different accounts posted that on different instamces, with the same name… Who knows.

Best to take it all with a grain of salt and not become “we did it reddit 2.0”

mochisuki,

Blocked, bye

TheControlled,

This is insanity. To be blocked about what I asked? How I asked if? Unbelievable avoidance.

Live_Let_Live, (edited )

it was hamas IED not an IDF drone

the second projectile could also have been hamas as well

MeanEYE,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Even landmine would make more sense. You can usually see projectile falling from the sky in wide shots like these and there are none.

TheControlled,

That’s speculation based on a tweet from Israeli propaganda. You can see the missiles in the video.

SpaceCowboy,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

The video footage was from a month and a half ago, which means Al Jazeera should’ve been able to find out the identity of the men that were killed. They could definitely have gotten a comment from the IDF in that time frame.

Why didn’t they do that? Then we’d have confirmation that they’re civilian, or at the very least some explanation from the IDF. Whether someone is willing to believe what the IDF says is up to the viewer, but it should be included with the story. But they didn’t do that, and considered it unfit to air on their English language channels where it would face more scrutiny. Their Arabic channels are very different than their English language sites, and more willing to air straight up propaganda. The internet is also willing to share propaganda with no effort to verify they were civilians just an emphatic “there’s no way they can’t be cilivilians!!!” Most news organizations understand that Hamas routinely caches weapons and wear civilian clothing when thy move to other locations, but this isn’t given any consideration in this write-up.

Are they civilians? We simply can’t know because of the shoddy journalism at work here. But the point just seems to be to maintain outrage, and a lot of people aren’t looking for the normal information that should be there in a properly researched news story.

kaffiene,

The burden of proof is on those doing the killing

SpaceCowboy,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

I don’t know how things work where you’re from, but where I’m from, the burden of proof is on those making accusations.

abracaDavid,

Lmao this isn’t small claims court. Those people were straight up murderer from long distance with missiles that American tax dollars very likely paid for.

SpaceCowboy,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

So when there’s a murder case, the prosecution doesn’t have to prove someone committed murder, it’s the accused has to prove they’re innocent?

rottingleaf,

Yeah, it doesn’t when the accused admits it and says “but they were all Hamas”. Since that moment the murder is proven, and “them all being Hamas” is what the accused is expected to find some court-worthy proof for.

SpaceCowboy,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Didn’t see any such comment in the article. You’re assuming an answer that wasn’t given and wasn’t even asked for. You’re building a fantasy story to prove guilt in your mind.

Meanwhile in the real world, there was at least $200K worth of munitions used in that video. You have to be really naive to think the decision to use such munitions didn’t go through the chain of command. So multiple people decided to use some very expensive munitions to kill some random civilians? Why? Because Israel is just that evil?

Stop inventing narratives in your mind and try to think more critically. The IDF isn’t going to have a drone following some random civilians, and then use three expensive smart bombs to take them out for no good reason. There are a lot of civilians in the area, there’s no need to use allocate that much hardware if the goal is to kill completely innocent civilians.

Your narrative depends on Israel not only being evil but also incredibly stupid in their use of resources. Given the lack of information given, lack of even basic levels of journalism, it’s far more likely to be propaganda.

radicalautonomy,

Ffs I have been reading your apologist bullshit on Lemmy for far too long. Touch grass.

MeanEYE,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Burden of proof is on those making claims. If you claim this is Israel killing Palestinians, you need to prove it’s Israel. Otherwise it’s some poor guys who lost their lives from an explosive. I didn’t even see the bomb falling.

kaffiene,

No, completely rational. This was probably Palestinian youths blowing themselves up to make Israel look bad. What was I thinking?

TheControlled,

I agree with your points. I’m gonna reply to you but be talking to anyone reading too. Thanks for your comment and critique.

Flat out though, the IDF is killing civilians. This is known.

But based off the comments and videos, I don’t think anything is known at all, but it seems unlikely these were civilians. Bizarrely, nearly everyone in this thread, and everyone who is going to downvote me, seems to want them to be civilians.

I would assume people would prefer them to be Hamas, who are terrorists and at the very least complicit in the massacre and kidnapping of Israeli civilians.

Outrage eliminates critical thinking and then anything that reinforces that outrage must be true.

I trust Al Jazeera, and I mourned their closure of Al Jazeera America as I was a supporter. But I could never trust anything they wrote about Israel and Gaza. It was barely veiled propaganda. This video is incindiary sensationalism because we are given zero context, but lots of guessing. By releasing this grizzly footage without context, that shows intent to exploit emotions and let us fill in the gaps. People really suck at this.

I’m really glad a bunch people, especially people like you, replied. It was fairly easy to separate the wheat from the chaff (that doesn’t mean only people who confirmed my suspicions btw) They/you spoke in terms of fact, objectivity, not in guesses, assumptions, and emotion.

To anyone who reads this ramble: If any journalist, holy-person, video, podcast, head-of-state, or meme is demanding your outrage, do not trust them because that is what propaganda looks like. This is a foundational aspect of media literacy and resisting the influence of power.

SpaceCowboy,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Flat out though, the IDF is killing civilians. This is known.

Every military in pretty much every war kills civilians. There is a distinction made between collateral damage and a military that deliberately targets civilians.

On October 7 Hamas deliberately targeting and killed civilians. This is known.

What we’ve seen from “alternative media” is a deliberate attempt to create a false equivalency between what Hamas did (genocide) and what Israel id doing (war). The video we’re commenting under now is one of many such reports.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence, But the non-stop barrage of disinformation that people are gleefully going along with eventually does lead to questions about the motivations behind this.

I mean Al Jazeera reports the casualties like a scorecard in a sport. The Hamas casualties are included in the same number of the total Palestinian casualty number. The Israeli casualty numbers are civilian casualties only. They don’t include IDF casualties in their numbers as they do with Hamas casualties.

It’s a war so there’s no way to know the exact numbers especially when the war is ongoing. Hamas has admitted 6000 of their fighters have died, and as with all wars we can assume the real number is much higher. And that’s 6000 fighting men they admitted to. There’s no number given for the military support personnel (which are valid targets in a war) that the IDF killed.

And I’ve noted that as the numbers for casualties have flattened nobody reports it anymore. Does fit the genocide narrative I suppose. If it were a genocide then you’d expect civilian casualties to increase as the “brave Hamas fighters” that are “protecting the civilians” are eliminated. But instead the civilian casualties are decreasing. Numbers simply don’t fit with the genocide narrative so they don’t get reported.

I just look at what both sides are saying and the truth is somewhere in between. The actions of Israel makes sense to me. Terrorists when into villages and murdered everyone they could find. That’s an act of war. Given the the casualties the inevitably come with a ground campaign, I wouldn’t want to do that. Unless of course the terrorists took hostages and I had no other choice. And since that’s what happened, here we are.

For the actions of Hamas they only explanation I have is that they’re psychopaths. If your goal is to negotiate, you don’t murder a thousand people. They wanted this war, and they took hostages to force Israel into a ground camping to maximize the Palestinian death toll to gain international sympathy.

What’s disturbing to me is how easily people are going along with the plan that was made by these psychopaths. They created a war which would inevitably lead to deaths and had their cameras ready to broadcast the propaganda. And a lot of people swallowed and got into a competition to prove how dedicated to the cause they are. To the point where they are being overtly being antisemitic now. What’s the goal? Keep Hamas alive so they can continue this cycle of violence forever.

Israel isn’t going anywhere, and hatred of Israel is only going to cause the deaths of even more people. Everyone needs to calm down with the constant outrage and think about the best way to end the violence. Spreading lies to keep everyone outraged and hating isn’t going to accomplish this.

It’s not helping Palestine in any way. There territory is shrinking as the continue to choose violence. I’m under no illusions that Israel is the good guy, it’s a country full of both good guys and bad guys like every other country. But when you choose violence the only thing that matters is which side has the stronger military. And that is clearly Israel. For the Palestinians the best course of action is to somehow let go of their hatred and negotiate for whatever they can get. What they can get at a negotiating table now is much less than what they would’ve gotten decades ago, but it’s more that they’ll get a few decades from now.

The dream of a Palestinian state is almost dead now and Biden is desperately trying to resuscitate it. Which is something that only people that get the news from reliable sources understand. The “alternative media” take is just that he’s “Genocide Joe.”

It’s gotten crazy how far the non-stop outrage has caused people to stray from reality. Most of the efforts of activists have been at best ineffective because they’re too disconnected from reality to have a message that makes sense to anyone that still lives in reality. At worst the activists are prolonging the war and are increasing the number of deaths in the conflict.

Ok now I’ve been rambling.

To anyone who reads this ramble: If any journalist, holy-person, video, podcast, head-of-state, or meme is demanding your outrage, do not trust them because that is what propaganda looks like. This is a foundational aspect of media literacy and resisting the influence of power.

You said it. Though it’s definitely understandable to be outraged by something that happened, you gotta stop and think about why someone is putting it in front of you. The mainstream media it’s their job to report the news and they have an incentive to be considered trustworthy so they’re going to make an effort to get the story right. Even then they get it wrong sometimes. Random person on the internet? They probably want to get clicks and don’t care if what they’re saying is a straight up lie. Or worse, they want you to be a part of a cause that serves their interests but don’t actually care about you.

heatofignition,

The problem is that according to due process, you need to prove somebody is guilty of something before they are jailed. These people weren’t jailed, they were basically executed from a distance. The burden of proof is on the Israeli military to prove that they WERE Hamas, not on people horrified by the footage to prove the negative. And so far (and historically) the IDF seems to not care to do so, and in lots of cases have given “proof” as justification for one action or another that later turned out to be bullshit.

Not to mention the numerous cases of the IDF killing people in “Press” vests and helmets, or people literally actively waving a white flag. In my opinion, they don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt given their record.

TheControlled,

Staying on the topic at hand, and only that, this is war. Killing an enemy on the field has no system of public review. Everything is internal. Neither IDF or Hammas has to provide proof of anything to anybody for any reason except when propagandantistic PR is at play (like you mentioned). At least not now. There will surely be tribunals after this war is “settled.” The only direction proof goes is up the chain of command. I won’t pretend to understand the complexity of target selection and acquisition (especially foreign nations and certainly not terrorists), but I know that that’s how it works. There is no burden of proof, whatsoever.

Those are the cold facts.

Opinion, etc: I hope you don’t read this as some kind of defence or exoneration of any malicious, evil, callous, or accidental killing commited of innocents. I unequivocally do not want or excuse killing civilians. Anyone who does is hideously evil. However, I think a reality check is necessary.

The “burden of proof” is a security blanket most of the world enjoys and vaguely understands. When they see some horrible violence of war, fed to them without context by compromised sources, it’s easy to make assumptions and demand justice. And many of those times, you should, just ideally without the assumptions and propaganda. This isn’t one of this times. I know that the IDF is commiting war crimes, but this video is just war.

WaxedWookie,

Killing obvious civilians is a warcrime. While there are circumstances where this is ambiguous, this example isn’t - Israel needs to overcome the very reasonable conclusion that these were civilians and prove that they were enemy combatants.

Understanding that 60-70% of the Palestinians Israel have killed are children, this will be a tall order.

TheControlled,

What makes it obvious?

WaxedWookie,

The video shows 4 people in civilian clothes casually wandering along chatting while unarmed.

Putting aside the thousands upon thousands literal children Israel has slaughtered in the past few months while spewing genocidal rhetoric (because Hamas?), what evidence do you have that this isn’t a warcrime and that they’re combatants? The video contains absolutely nothing suggesting anything of the sort, and no evidence has been presented.

When people say they want to commit a genocide, then kill tens of thousands of civilians, I tend to believe them - why are you so incredulous?

Prandom_returns,

You still really don’t understand how evidence works, huh?

WaxedWookie,

You kill a bunch of people, you’d better be damn sure it’s justifiable - you know - by looking at the evidence. Basic rule of law stuff.

Where’s the evidence? We both know there isn’t any - much like there’s nothing that would justify Israel’s broader genocide.

How do you think evidence works?

Prandom_returns, (edited )

“Know” lmao.
“Basic”, but too complex for you to understand.

WaxedWookie,

Feel free to reach out if you’d like to take a break from defending warcrimes by a genocidal regime and provide any evidence.

Prandom_returns,
  • Not a proven warcrime
  • Provide evidence of what??

Now you’re just repeating the same words over and over again with no correlation. Holy shit. Did I get baited into a “discussion” with ChatGPT 1.0? There’s no other explanation

WaxedWookie,

Evidence that these civilians are in fact combatants. I’ll wait.

Prandom_returns,

Oh my god this is hilarious. I’ve sent 20 messages explaining that theres no evidence one way or the other, and you still parrot the same shit over and over again. Come on, rub your both braincells together, Karen, figure it out.

Your whole argument is that I’m a genocide denier, and I’ve stated many times saying theres an active genocide in Gaza, committed by Israeli forces. You literally have no argument.

Bad guys don’t look the way you imagine. Real life is not a Holywood stage (I know some Americans struggle with this fact)

Let’s try this one more time, all together now: “An out of context clip on twitter, containing unidentified people in an unidentified area, during an unidentified time, is not evidence”.

Based on the level of responses you gave me so far, I assume you’re confused by that as well.

WE, the people watching, cannot know, whether the targets were “The bad guys” (you know, pew pew pew), or the good guys. Being unarmed could be an indication, BUT IT’S NOT EVIDENCE. Life is not a movie, nor a Battlefield game.

Okay, this is as low as I can go I think.

WaxedWookie,

There we go. The fact that there’s evidence of the murder of a group of apparent civilians and no evidence they were combatants or expectation of it is the problem. You don’t get to go killing whoever you please, shrug your shoulders and say “eh - I dunno - Hamas I guess - who cares”. This applies doubly in the context of the ongoing genocide - Israel have made it crystal clear they can’t be trusted.

To look at a genocidal regime killing a bunch of people that gave no indication they’re combatants, shrugging your shoulders and saying there’s no evidence they’re not guilty doesn’t cut it. It excuses the commission of the genocide (which is just thousands of instances of this kind of thing with an imposed famine and displacement), and represents a total disregard for the rule of law.

Prandom_returns, (edited )

Christ almighty.

The one’s doing the killing have to collect evidence. Not fucking random Karens on the internet who can only watch a twitter video and try to deduce information using their fucking salt lamp.

Do you imagine the bad guys to be “Hey Karen look at us! We have skulls on our shirts, and I’m wearing an eyepatch! Kill us, we’re the bad guys It is important that twitter people recognise us!”.

You have to be trolling. You just have to be. I refuse to believe people you’re a real person writing all that unironically

WaxedWookie,

Yes - the IDF need to provide the evidence, haven’t, won’t, and can’t, but you defend them nonetheless.

What we have at present is evidence of a warcrime in the context of a genocide - it’s encumbent on the IDF to prove this killing was justified.

A genocide isn’t a single act - it’s many acts like this one you’re defending.

Prandom_returns,

So, you “know” IDF has no evidence? How? Do you expect they contact every twitter Karen with evidence during an active war? Are you fucking high??

What we have at present is evidence of a warcrime

No, we literally do not.

it’s encumbent on the IDF to prove this killing was justified.

Correct, but not to facebook/twitter Karens, nor to the public. Only to the investigating authorities.

WaxedWookie,

I expect Israel to have a better justification for killing a group of people than “they looked Palestinian.” - that’s genocidal. This is a high-profile example largely because it appears so unambiguous. Israel are going to need to present the evidence that this was justified, or it gets thrown on the pile of killings amounting to that genocide.

We have video footage of a bunch of civilians being targeted in a drone strike - until they’re shown to be enemy combatants (not happening) this is evidence of a warcrime. Your logic could be used to justify nuking Tel Aviv - we can’t know the entire population aren’t enemy combatants, and it’s not for us to prove or ask for proof, so stop worrying about it, Karen.

If you believe the IDF need to prove the killing was justified, why are you defending them not doing so, and if you believe this is a genocide, why do you deny that the killings that make up that genocide are unjustified (remembering that they literally haven’t been justified)?

I’m pretty happy to change my tune on this instance if credible evidence is presented, but I’m also comfortable saying that I know that won’t happen at this point.

I don’t think calling me a Karen for opposing warcrimes and genocide is having the desired effect, but you do you, champ.

Prandom_returns,

I expect Israel to have a better justification for killing a group of people than “they looked Palestinian.”

Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. It’s not clear from the video.

We have video footage of a bunch of civilians being targeted in a drone strike

We don’t. No evidence they are civilians. No evidence they are combatants. If you have proof other than “they look civilian”, give us proof.

this is evidence of a warcrime.

It is not. No proof this is Gaza. No proof it’s an IDF drone strike. No proof that it happened last week, last month, last year or last decade. If you have proof “IDK it looks like it”, give us proof. And not just one of these things, but ALL.

If you believe the IDF need to prove the killing was justified, why are you defending them not doing so,

Nobody said IDF don’t have proof. They just don’t have to share it with the public, no matter how hard you want it. I’m not defending them, I’m trying to show you that your logic is flawed, and you can easily be swayed by misinformation and propaganda.

and if you believe this is a genocide, why do you deny that the killings that make up that genocide are unjustified (remembering that they literally haven’t been justified)?

What I believe is my deduction from actual, confirmed, reputable sources. Not a random twitter video. My opinion that is a genocide is just that - opinion. And unlike you, I don’t claim I have proof. Because none of us have.

I don’t think calling me a Karen for opposing warcrimes and genocide is having the desired effect, but you do you, champ.

You’re not opposing genocide. You’re literrally sitting in your warm home, half a world away, reacting to random videos on the internet with an angry emoji for internet clout. “Genocide bad” is as useful as “Bad things are bad”.

You said I have bad reading comprehension and you deduced that I called you Karen because you “oppose warcrimes”? Holy shit, either read again, or read more.

WaxedWookie,

Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. It’s not clear from the video.

We’d need the IDF to justify the killings. They haven’t won’t and can’t.

Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. It’s not clear from the video.

You think you can go shoot up a school, then say it was in self-defence without evidence and get away with it? How’s the principle different here?

We don’t. No evidence they are civilians. No evidence they are combatants. If you have proof other than “they look civilian”, give us proof.

The burden isn’t on those killed to prove their innocence - the killers need to do that. Rule of law - really simple stuff you seem incapable of grasping but get all pissy when I point that out.

It is not. No proof this is Gaza. No proof it’s an IDF drone strike. No proof that it happened last week, last month, last year or last decade. If you have proof “IDK it looks like it”, give us proof. And not just one of these things, but ALL.

…except the IDF admitting it was them. I know they have zero credibility, but when they admit to this kind of thing, I think it’s reasonable to believe them.

Nobody said IDF don’t have proof. They just don’t have to share it with the public, no matter how hard you want it. I’m not defending them, I’m trying to show you that your logic is flawed, and you can easily be swayed by misinformation and propaganda.

Absent anything at all suggesting they were combatants in the context of a genocide Israel is committing? I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

What I believe is my deduction from actual, confirmed, reputable sources. Not a random twitter video. My opinion that is a genocide is just that - opinion. And unlike you, I don’t claim I have proof. Because none of us have.

Again, the IDF admitted to the killings. You saw video of a bunch of people being killed for no discernible reason, and you’re defending that.

And the rest? You can stop reaching - it’s not doing you any favours.

Prandom_returns,

We’d need the IDF to justify the killings. They haven’t won’t and can’t.

You haven’t received a detailed breakdown of war and casualties via mail? Weird…

You think you can go shoot up a school, then say it was in self-defence without evidence and get away with it? How’s the principle different here?

What the fuck are you on about…

The burden isn’t on those killed to prove their innocence - the killers need to do that. Rule of law - really simple stuff you seem incapable of grasping but get all pissy when I point that out.

You are literally insane. Nobody has to prove anything to you, you absolutely delusional person. You are a fucking civilian half a world away. I don’t know how are you not getting this.

Absent anything at all suggesting they were combatants in the context of a genocide Israel is committing? I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

Karen “just knowing things” again

Again, the IDF admitted to the killings. You saw video of a bunch of people being killed for no discernible reason, and you’re defending that.

Just because don’t know the reason, doesn’t mean that IDF didn’t have one, and no, they don’t have to mail you the reason while the there’s an ongoing war.

Okay, now I’m really done. This went from a fun ‘feed the troll’ deal, to talking to a mentally problematic person who thinks the world revolves around them and they should get detailed war reports delivered to them, to justify every war casualty.

  1. You don’t understand how war works
  2. You still don’t know what evidence is
  3. You still think the bad guys should look like the bad guys from Holywood movies, otherwise they’re good guys
  4. You still think you can watch a video and know things from “intuition”.

All four show me that this is a completely meaningless conversation and a general waste of my time.

Now, tell me how I’m a genocide denier, even though I agreed that there’s genocide in Gaza, and tell me how I’m defending IDF, even though I think IDF and Israeli government are terrorists. That’ll make a good point! Lmao

Continue living in your cocoon of safety and self-righteousness sucking up all the propaganda and every conspiracy theory, thinking that your reactions on facebook/twitter videos help the people of Gaza.

Whe could continue this circle of me trying to explain things to a rock, but I’d rather use my time elsewhere.

WaxedWookie, (edited )

You haven’t received a detailed breakdown of war and casualties via mail? Weird…

Believe it or not, proof doesn’t need to be mailed to me, but it does need to be provided. It hasn’t been. Who do you think it needs to be provided to, and when should that happen? It hasn’t and won’t go to the ICJ. Similarly, the world hasn’t recieved one via the same public channels Israel used to confirm they killed these civilians. I guess there’s still Palestinian children that still draw breath, so I’m sure they’re prioritising addressing that.

What the fuck are you on about…

Israel would be the school shooter claiming self-defence in this analogy. You don’t get to kill a bunch of people, make excuses, and not prove them. Neither does Israel.

You are literally insane. Nobody has to prove anything to you, you absolutely delusional person. You are a fucking civilian half a world away. I don’t know how are you not getting this.

Again, supplying the evidence for the high-profile killing of multiple civilians via the same channels they used to confirm it was them would be sensible. The irony of someone busy arguing against the rule of law calling me insane isn’t lost on me.

Karen “just knowing things” again

Yeah, but mostly just asking for evidence to justify the killing of multiple civilians rather than defending those killings.

Just because don’t know the reason, doesn’t mean that IDF didn’t have one,

Sure they shot up that school and admitted to it, but they probably had a good reason for it. Uh huh - I’m insane.

and no, they don’t have to mail you the reason while the there’s an ongoing war.

You understand that this makes you look dumber than most of the things you’re saying right? Also, I know genocide is a big word and war isn’t, but this isn’t a war.

they should get detailed war reports delivered to them, to justify every war casualty

You’re doing the stupid again.

  1. You don’t understand how war works

Not a war - a genocide.

  1. You still don’t know what evidence is

If you’re to be believed it can’t exist, and isn’t needed in any case - Israel are probably fine, and can be trusted, right?

  1. You still think the bad guys should look like the bad guys from Holywood movies, otherwise they’re good guys

I think you need a reason to kill a bunch of people - there isn’t one here.

  1. You still think you can watch a video and know things from “intuition”.

We know a regime that’s currently committing a genocide and a laundry list of warcrimes killed 4 people with no apparent reason to do so. On the one hand, I’m saying we’d need to see evidence justifying these killings to know they’re not a warcrime. On the other, you’re saying nothing is evidence, and because Israel doesn’t need to provide the fictional evidence to me personally, it’s all fine.

All four show me that this is a completely meaningless conversation and a general waste of my time.

Noone can waste your time but you.

Now, tell me how I’m a genocide denier, even though I agreed that there’s genocide in Gaza,

You’re defending the warcrimes that make up that genocide.

and tell me how I’m defending IDF, even though I think IDF and Israeli government are terrorists.

You’re defending the warcrimes the IDF is committing.

Continue living in your cocoon of safety and self-righteousness sucking up all the propaganda and every conspiracy theory, thinking that your reactions on facebook/twitter videos help the people of Gaza.

Is that the cocoon where we observe a bunch of warcrimes committed in commission if a genocide and assume it’s probably fine? If a bridge isn’t too your taste, how about some lunar real estate?

Whe could continue this circle of me trying to explain things to a rock, but I’d rather use my time elsewhere.

Me challenging you on your total desregard for the rule of law, warcrimes, or the ongoing commission of a genocide isn’t a me problem.

I’ll be sorry to see you go - it was quaint hearing about this genocide that’s happening without Israel indiscriminately targeting civilians and your care for the rule of law as you defend the killing of those civilians while throwing around weak insults.

Prandom_returns,

Yeah, just repeating the same things over and over again. Equivalent of a crazy cat lady.

WaxedWookie,

Yeah - fuck me for needing a reason to belive a genocidal regime drone striking civilians isn’t committing yet another warcrime, I guess.

Never mind that your logic could be used to defend the Nazis gassing millions of Jews because they don’t need to mail me justification for every person they killed - we don’t need to call for evidence - we need to give them the benefit of the doubt, right?

Prandom_returns,

You are literally crazy, and you’re creeping me out, weirdo.

WaxedWookie,

The moron defending warcrimes during a genocide with arguments that would defend Hitler is creeped out by the rule of law - I’m shocked.

You’ve been in the process of fucking right off for about a dozen posts now - get to goose stepping, Rudolph Jitler.

Prandom_returns,

creeped out by the rule of law

Naw, just you.

WaxedWookie,

Yet you keep coming back for more…

Is this some kind of humiliation fetish deal? I’m flattered but not interested - if nothing else, given the dumb, inconsistent nonsense you’re spouting, I’ve got concerns about your capacity for consent.

What did I say about trotting on, again? Get to it.

Prandom_returns,

You’re flattered? You’re getting creepier with every message.

Can you generate some more nonsense?

WaxedWookie, (edited )

Yes - being flattered and disinterested in someone that just keeps coming back for more embarrassment is the creepy bit. It’s long past time you fucked off - this block is for your own good.

Try to work on your credulity - assuming civilians (and UN aid workers yesterday) being executed in drone strikes by a genocidal regime is all above board is evidence of a severe cognitive deficiency.

Edit: I guess we can throw the Iranian consulate on to the pile too.

Prandom_returns,

Hmm. Some more unrelated garbage and frothing rage. Do you want me to get the manager?

TheControlled,

They aren’t listening, they’re reacting, like the others.

WaxedWookie,

Where’s the evidence justifying the killing of these people? Or do we not care about the rule of law?

I guess in the context of the genocide Israel is committing there’s not much room for that kind of thing.

TheControlled, (edited )

Stop being hung up on the unarmed thing. All the badguys in movies are armed to make it clear to the audience and make it “justified”. Unarmed soldiers and military personnel make up a much larger chunk of casualties than you realize. Terrorists don’t just toss their guns to the side and claim immunity. They are still targets.

Anyway, I’ve made my points clear, I’ve explained various things using traceable, sound logic. You seem to have to not read it or comprehended it. I’m not going to waste my time with unreasonable, volatile people.

WaxedWookie,

Literally zero evidence that this killing is justified in the context of a genocide that the Israeli government and IDF won’t shut up about, where the majority of their targets are women and children.

Don’t go pretending you know a thing about reason or that you’ve made any meaningful point whatsoever.

Prandom_returns,

I think that person has very strong pre-concieved notions… At this point a rock on the ground is “evidence” to them that the rock is in cahoots with Israel, because children in Gaza, because obviously.

That video is evidence of nothing, but certain death of 4 unknown people, at an unknown location, recorded at unknown point in time.

Again, disclaimer: There’s an active genocide in Gaza, performed by Israel against Palestinians. Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

Atomic,

What you are saying is just not true.

You can’t go and kill unarmed, non combative, un-uniformed people however you’d like.

You do need to prove that the people you are killing are actually combatants. Especially when you send a missile down someone’s head just walking on the street.

Prandom_returns,

Why do you assume there’s no proof?

Atomic,

Why do you assume I have that assumption?

Prandom_returns,

Because of this sentence:

What you are saying is just not true.

It’s absolutely true. We don’t know if IDF is collecting proof or not. And IDF absolutely does not need to provide proof to the public. Only to the people who are investigating the war. (Just like the person you are replying to stated)

Atomic,

“Neither IDF or Hammas has to provide proof of anything to anybody for any reason except when propagandantistic PR is at play”

That is simply not true. They do have to provide proof to somebody. You said so yourself. To the ones investigating. I can assure you. They are definatly included in these “anybody”

Prandom_returns,

Why did you cut off the next sentence in the quote?

TheControlled,

You’re right, you can’t do that.

Also you’re wrong, you don’t need to prove that. At least not publicly which is what you seem to be implying. Intelligence has to prove that these people, or some of them, are Hamas, likely of some significance, maybe not. Then they have to be identified, monitored, and tracked for a strike opportunity. Then, when the entire chain of command is in agreement that that’s their guy and this is the best time, they attack.

In your version, the drone operator seems to have infinite ammo and gleeful fire-at-will orders. Killing anyone who is “just walking down the street.” Maybe the soldiers on the ground operate that way, but not drones or jets.

Atomic,

“In your version, the drone operator seems to have infinite ammo and gleeful fire-at-will orders. Killing anyone who is “just walking down the street.” Maybe the soldiers on the ground operate that way, but not drones or jets.”

Where are you getting this story from? I sure as hell didn’t even come close to mention or talk about anything of the sort.

And regarding your statement

“Intelligence has to prove that these people, or some of them, are Hamas, likely of some significance, maybe not. Then they have to be identified, monitored, and tracked for a strike opportunity. Then, when the entire chain of command is in agreement that that’s their guy and this is the best time, they attack.”

Do you have any source for that being the way they operate at every single strike. Any source that this is how it went down from what we saw? Or are you just guessing?

My money is on the later.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Seeing as israel regularly bombs civilians without evidence they are military, and they also use an AI system to pick targets, and the fact that these guys are clearly not armed, makes it very unlikely they were Hamas and very likely they were civilians.

The IDF is welcome to provide evidence of the contrary. Their track record of mass slaughtering civilians, especially children, sure isn’t helping them.

TheControlled,

This reasoning is based on emotional assumptions and simplistic, naive logic.

The IDF doesn’t have to explain anything, and neither does Hamas. This is war, not a riot.

The source you gave is from a biased organization.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Ah yes the biased Washington Post.

Trying to spread IDF propaganda while pretending to be neutral lol.

TheControlled,

Global Village Space? Thats where your link goes.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Which quotes a Wapo article. And gvs has a good mbfc rating.

But anyone against israel is biased right?

TheControlled,

Dude, I really don’t give a damn about Israel. Seems like a nice place to visit. I know they’re killing civilians and I’ve said that. So why are you pushing me like I’m some shill? Because this video? There’s no evidence of any kind except observation. Anything else is conjecture, but there’s useless emotional conjecture and detached, deductive, logical type conjecture. I use belong in the latter.

I don’t know your source but I looked them up and they seem fine, with a possible bias as the founder is Pakistani, but who knows. A quote from another org inside of an article is not how to win people over. If you like a quote, go to the quote directly.

You’ve turned me off the conversation, with your baseless and cliche accusation, however. Insufferable.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Edgy so neutral.

MeanEYE, (edited )
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

They don’t know, they are just making assumptions that people got killed in Gaza. Even location is just bombed houses, of which there are plenty in the region and doesn’t necessarily mean it’s Gaza. And you get down-voted for simply doubting because that’s what people here do, hate on Israel and grasping at straws. Meanwhile, no one asked why were they being filmed. How did the person filming know that bombs will fall on those 4 guys in 5 or so minutes. Why did that one guy keep walking in the same direction and not try to save his life by running somewhere and hiding. I personally find all those things suspicious. But that sort of thinking doesn’t fit into idea that Israel is having fun killing people. So you, and now me, will get down voted.

TheControlled, (edited )

I would also like to know why this camera drone is there, and why it’s following these guys, and how the operator has the best luck getting perfect footage.

Edit: This seems to be leaked footage from an Israeli intelligence/targeting drone. If that’s true, then that would prove that at least one of these were military targets.

Based on the video and logical deduction, this scenario seems to be the most probable.

If someone has another hypothesis on this subject, I would be very interested to read it. Assuming you don’t just downvote and attack me.

MeanEYE,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

It was also pointed out, and I somehow missed it, the fact there was secondary explosion which no one tried to explain. If they weren’t armed and this attack was done via drone, why would there be smaller secondary explosion?

IndustryStandard, (edited )

Someone already posted slow motion footage of the missles in the comments. It shows a second missile hitting.

Nsfl imgur.com/a/e1XWdfY

MeanEYE,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Well spotted. I missed those.

Tardil,

Looks fake

irreticent,

Not any more fake than your account.

Tardil,

Que?

irreticent,

Tu cuenta es falsa.

Tardil,

I’m just new. Why u so mad bro

Mastengwe,

You got the “tard” part right.

michaelmrose,

Everyone needs to see this footage that is nowhere in the article. Everyone SHOULD see this its obvious murder without justification. www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEOcBkoz6HM

rottingleaf, (edited )

Ironic that it’s “Anadolu English” with Turkey doing the same kind of thing, though. We live in hell, but there are islands of paradise admittedly, and when one finds them one knows it.

Live_Let_Live,

it was hamas IED not an IDF drone

michaelmrose,

The secondary explosion proves they were terrorists? You sound like a conspiracy theorist.

anarchy79, (edited )
@anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

Everyone needs to watch this instead of keeping track of Ukraine. Swear to god Hamas attack was a Russian distraction tactic. The whos and the whats and the whens and the wheres on Israel-Palestine is the new thing. Who cares about some old war in Ukraine? We have moved on, it’s back to the jews again.

Wag the dog. And nobody sees it. BTW taking odds on Grump winning the election outright. When they give them another chance you know they reeeally want them to win, right?

somethingchameleon,

How come no US politicians, democrat or otherwise, include removing support for Israel as part of their campaign?

Evotech,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    somethingchameleon,

    Who cares about them, really?

    They’re not more important than anyone else on this planet.

    Emerald,

    Odd phrasing in that first bit 💀

    Evotech, (edited )

    Idk if you have participated in the us political system much but like there’s a lot of Jews

    Going against them and potentially being branded anti-Semitic is political suicide

    anarchy79,
    @anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

    Acnshually, jews

    RatBin,

    I think we can move past this while fighting actual antisemitism, which may be on the rise for all I know.

    BreakDecks,

    Calm down, Kanye.

    pavokk,

    He’s got a point. AIPAC i one of the strongest lobby organization in the US. They make and break politicians all the time.

    BreakDecks,

    If you think AIPAC represents all Jews, you are absolutely an antisemite. No surprise you think Kanye “I like Hitler” West has “got a point”.

    Criticising the Israel lobby is fine, but maybe don’t blame Jews for everything Israel does…

    michaelmrose,

    Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an important or essential part of what being Jewish means to them

    pewresearch.org/…/pf_05-11-21_jewish-americans-07…

    BreakDecks,

    “Caring about Israel” is a very generic metric, and I bet things have changed a lot since 2021. I know plenty of people who support Israel’s right to exist, but also want Bibi imprisoned for life for what he’s doing to Palestinians.

    Jews are not a monolithic group. If you can’t criticize a government without condemning an entire ethnic group, that’s your failure.

    michaelmrose,

    I can condemn a group of people who are voluntarily a member of a religion (not the ethnic group) while understanding that individuals should be judged as individuals.

    BreakDecks,

    Then point the finger at a group that deserves it like Zionists, rather than broadly pointing the finger at Jews. Most Jews, especially in America, are secular.

    nomous,

    And they’ve been very successful in convincing everyone that Israel = Jews; so that any criticism of Israel is defacto antisemitic (nevermind that Palestinians are a Semitic people).

    We should be clear that Netanyahu and the far-right fundamentalist Likud party in Israel is the problem.

    davel,
    @davel@lemmy.ml avatar

    Putting the star of David on their flag was chefs-kiss propaganda.

    eatthecake,

    Im starting to think that what a lot of people learned from the holocaust wasn’t ‘never let this happen again’, but ‘never let this happen to the jews again’. The people of gaza are being wiped out because we, the west, can’t hold a Jewish state accountable for their actions, because that might make us nazis in the eyes of morons and their propagandists.

    TheFriar,

    because that might make us nazis in the eyes of morons and their propagandists.

    You mean the Israeli state?

    RatBin,

    The many faces of totalitarianism; we need to discuss this better, or have representatives who can at very least acknowledge that. By the way, none of these people seem to have at hearth the peace of the region. Until than, our hands are tied.

    rottingleaf,

    Im starting to think that what a lot of people learned from the holocaust

    That always happens when you try to teach a crowd a moral lesson.

    But, to be frank, there were institutional things learned too, culminating in the UN being created. Too bad it wasn’t reformed significantly after decolonization happened, and for the Cold War, and as a result by now it’s completely irrelevant. Its rules are being used to justify things opposite to stated when those rules were written.

    anarchy79,
    @anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

    Sure.

    theonyltruemupf,

    Piss off “the Jews”? Can we please condemn Israels violence without antisemitism?

    Evotech,

    They are Jewish…

    michaelmrose,

    I don’t worry about pissing off white people in America by pointing out the shitty things they collectively were responsible for in the pre civil war era even though not every white person in the 1800s owned slaves or supported slavery.

    davel,
    @davel@lemmy.ml avatar

    How are we almost six months into this genocide and people are still conflating Jewishness with Zionism?

    Most Zionists are not Jews, and many Jews are not Zionists, in fact some Jews are fervently anti-Zionist.

    whoisearth,
    @whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

    I’ll tell you the nasty truth. You’re right, but if a politician ran a campaign to strip Israel of all their benefits of American Exceptionalism they will be crushed in the polls. They won’t just lose they will be decimated.

    Why?

    Because despite what you say, many of those Jews you are referring to are actually Zionists once cutting off the hand that feeds their homeland is threatened.

    Non-Jews need to understand that unlike Christianity there is a level of identity politics steeped in nationalism, religion and culture are all so heavily intertwined it’s hard to break through. I’m speaking from experience. 3 of my kids are Jewish.

    I feel sorry for those sane Israelis that are powerless as their insanely right wing government kills any hope they have for a safe future thanks to destroying an already tenuous relationship with all their neighbours in the ME.

    davel, (edited )
    @davel@lemmy.ml avatar

    Because despite what you say, many of those Jews you are referring to are actually Zionists once cutting off the hand that feeds their homeland is threatened.

    Many who have actual ties to the occupying state, or who still consider it a “homeland” despite what they’re seeing before their eyes, probably.

    Non-Jews need to understand that unlike Christianity there is a level of identity politics steeped in nationalism, religion and culture are all so heavily intertwined it’s hard to break through.

    That Religio-nationalism isn’t alien to us. Look at American Christian nationalism. Second Thought: The Growing Threat Of Christian Nationalism

    Settler-colonialism isn’t foreign to us either: we created it. The Jewish state is a settler-colony created by and still supported by & deeply dependent on Global North colonizers. America itself is a settler-colony: we genocided the indigenous peoples and settled here.

    whoisearth,
    @whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

    Point being it’s an extremely nuanced situation right now and it’s disgusting but there’s no easy fix.

    rottingleaf,

    They won’t just lose they will be decimated.

    offtopic: “Decimated” means “reduced by 10%”, that is, multiplied by 0.9, that is, in the ancient Rome it meant “every 10th executed”. Seems closer to “just lose” than to “crushed in the polls”. While correcting people writing in their native language which isn’t mine is stupid, in this case the term is Roman, so.

    whoisearth,
    @whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

    I will accept the pedantic response lol. I was not aware.

    Atomic,

    Other meaning: “kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of.”

    The word has more than just one meaning of “reduction by 1/10”, even if that’s originally where the expression comes from. But im sure a smart guy as yourself already knew that.

    rottingleaf,

    In general how a word is used is what it means in the language, prescriptivism is cancer. I just felt that its original meaning is worth preserving too, and there are many ways to say “badly hurt”.

    Atomic,

    The only cancer is you going around trying to “correct” people when there’s nothing to correct.

    They used the word “decimated” accurately.

    You’re not preserving the original meaning. You’re just being an ass.

    rottingleaf,

    The only cancer is you going around trying to “correct” people when there’s nothing to correct.

    How does it feel to be such a moron that you can’t be bothered to look up the word “prescriptivism”, don’t know it, thus don’t get what you are answering and still decide to throw insults?

    You’re not preserving the original meaning. You’re just being an ass.

    What’s certain is that I don’t seek for evaluations of my actions and statements from apes who guess the meaning of words while having Internet access.

    EDIT: and guess the exact opposite at that

    Atomic,

    “While correcting people writing in their native language which isn’t mine is stupid, in this case the term is Roman, so.”

    That is your quote. Moron. You fully admit you are trying to correct people.

    But sure, try to make it about “prescriptivism” if that’s what you want you absolute clown.

    rottingleaf,

    Why’d you write this after I said how much exactly I value your opinion?

    Atomic,

    Well, first I would have to actually care about what you value and not.

    rottingleaf,

    You seem to, hell knows why

    bartolomeo,

    Most Zionists are not Jews

    Where did you get this from? It sounds wrong to me. The early Zionist terrorist groups (Haganah, Lehi etc.) were singularly Jewish groups, with mass immigration of Jews to Palestine being one of their top priorities (getting the British and Palestinians out being another).

    To vote in the World Zionist Congress you have to be Jewish.

    Or maybe this is a question of definition- how do you define Zionists in this case?

    davel, (edited )
    @davel@lemmy.ml avatar

    As Genocide Joe has been saying for decades, you don’t have to be a Jew to be a Zionist. You just have to believe in the project of Atlanticist Jews settler-colonizing the Palestinian people’s land.

    .
    Another reason the imperialist US government is Zionist is that Israel is its unsinkable aircraft carrier in oil-rich Western Asia. As Biden has been saying for decades, “were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to .”

    bartolomeo, (edited )

    Ok, now I see what you mean. Thanks.

    Edit: holy shit, yea.

    As early as mid-1895, Herzl described his expectation that in supporting the emigration of Jews, “anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies”.[2]

    The Israeli government’s alleged collaboration with antisemitic politicians abroad has been criticized as a manifestation of Zionist antisemitism, in that it seeks to highlight Jew-hatred in order to provide further incentive for Jewish immigration to Israel. In this context, anti-Zionists have criticized the Zionist movement’s alleged complicity with or capitulation to antisemitism since it gained traction in the 19th century, and some anti-Zionists have also categorized Zionism as a form of antisemitism. The Austrian-Jewish anti-Zionist writer Karl Kraus regarded antisemitism as the “essence” of the Zionist movement and used the label “Jewish antisemites” to describe Jews who identified as Zionists.[3]

    michaelmrose,

    jpr.org.uk/…/conflict-israel-and-gaza-what-do-jew…

    pewresearch.org/…/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-…

    pewresearch.org/…/u-s-jews-have-widely-differing-…

    The majority of US/UK jews are both pro-Israel and not against what is going on in Gaza

    I couldn’t find a worldwide survey but it doesn’t seem altogether unfair to conflate the jewish religion with the worldwide bastion of that religion any more than it would be wrong to conflate Catholics and the pope. This does NOT mean its ok to harm people based on what they believe. Adding to the sum total of harm does nothing to alleviate the suffering in Gaza.

    rottingleaf,

    Israel isn’t any kind of bastion, Judaism doesn’t have a central authority like the Pope and those smaller ones it has are not in Israel.

    davel,
    @davel@lemmy.ml avatar

    I couldn’t find a worldwide survey but it doesn’t seem altogether unfair to conflate the jewish religion with the worldwide bastion of that religion any more than it would be wrong to conflate Catholics and the pope.

    This analogy doesn’t work. You’re conflating the Jewish people with the Jewish religion. Catholicism is not an ethnicity, and many Jews aren’t religious, in fact quite a few are atheists.

    michaelmrose,

    The fact that Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion is confusing. Nobody should be condemned for the ethnicity they were born with. Religions are voluntary associations.

    davel, (edited )
    @davel@lemmy.ml avatar

    Indeed. And the Jewish faith isn’t monolithically Zionist either, not even in Palestine itself: Edah HaChareidis

    JPost, 2017: Tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews in New York protest IDF draft law Anti-Zionist Satmar Hasidic group joins Israeli Orthodox in campaign against Orthodox conscription into the IDF.

    Daily Mail, Oct. 2023: Thousands of pro-Palestine protestors shut down Brooklyn Bridge after flooding NYC streets alongside orthodox Jewish members to condemn Israel’s war in Gaza - as businesses are plastered with ‘Zionism is Terrorism’ stickers

    JPost, Mar. 2024: Ultra-Orthodox Jews block Israeli highway in protest of IDF draft

    drislands,

    There are plenty of American Jews that don’t support what Israel is doing.

    michaelmrose,

    Does it matter? Support or oppose people are being killed by missiles from drones not unkind words tossed from across the ocean.

    drislands,

    In the context of the conversation we’re currently having? Yeah it does matter, because the person I was replying to suggested that all Jews support what Israel is doing.

    Crikeste,

    And some of the strongest critics of Israel I’ve seen throughout all this have been Jewish. Wild to cast their protest to the side and generalize them.

    drislands,

    Right? Some absolutely braindead takes in here.

    davel, (edited )
    @davel@lemmy.ml avatar

    It matters insomuch as they are protesting/committing acts of civil disobedience or hounding politicians or not donating to AIPAC or whatever else they can do from across the ocean.

    mwguy,

    Because it’s wildly unpopular here. The attacks on 10/7 have convinced more people who would normally be supporters if Gaza/Hamas to not be. And the persistent polling that shows supermajority support amongst Palestinians, plus the continued ransom (and likely perpetual rape) of hostages, combine with the consistent pledge of “we love it and we’ll do it again”, and the fact that Americans are still being held hostage; Palestinians should be glad the US hasn’t entered the conflict ourselves.

    tocopherol, (edited )
    @tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Is it really so unpopular among actual people? It’s politically not popular, but people in the US are beginning to see the IDF and Israeli government for what they are. I have been seeing Palestinian flags and other shows of support all over since October, and Western media makes little attempt to justify the atrocities by the IDF in their reporting.

    mwguy,

    Oh absolutely. Israel’s popularity has taken a hit in the US (Down to 58%, source but the Palestinian Authority’s support is down to 18% (same source).

    And when you look at specifically questions around Israel & Hamas’ handling and justification for conflict it’s no-contest (source. Nobody thinks Hamas’ actions were justifiable. That pew poll is pretty nuanced and lays it out pretty well. Most of Palestinians support is primarily focused on the human cost of the war; which the US is seen to be mitigating with it’s air drops and the port we’re building.

    It’s not really surprising either. The older you are the more you’ve experienced Hamas/PA tactics and PR and the less susceptible you are to it. And Hamas is getting fairly good coverage here. There’s rarely a news article pointing out that US citizens are still being held hostage, for example.

    FanciestPants,

    Possible unpopular take, but suddenly cutting off support for Israel may be evaluated as the path that results in far more blood. Because of Bibi’s absolute shit response, there’s a good possibility that many groups in the region (Hezbolah, Iran, etc.) are standing quite ready to exterminate Israel and all of its roughly 9.3 million residents (2021 numbers). While the US cutting off support may be a short term solution that a lot of people could agree with, Bibi has made clear that he is willing to play chicken with the entire population of Israel, and so if the aid stops and the possible invasion from the regional players starts up, then the US has to decide whether to let a “former” ally get exterminated, or get involved at that point when many more actors could be involved in the conflict.

    DragonTypeWyvern,

    Israel is a nuclear nation, they’ll be fine. What will happen is they’ll ally with Russia and sell off access to the tech we’ve been dumb enough to give them.

    mlg,
    @mlg@lemmy.world avatar

    Bruh the 4th guy just kept walking at the same pace like he already knew IDF was gonna send the third strike just to kill him too.

    anarchy79,
    @anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

    “Drone, say KILL ALL HUMANS”

    Drone: “KILL ALL HUMANS”.

    Then they had brunch.

    moitoi,

    State of shock, the human can’t do anything else than what he was doing. It’s a survive strategy of the brain. This alone shows the psychological impact of a genocide on the people in a milionian of second.

    YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH,

    Most moral army in the world™.

    APassenger,

    “God said this is mine.”

    fox2263,

    Despicable and deplorable

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Can’t imagine war being any other way.

    meliante,

    You’re a disgrace. A perfect fit in Israel, I bet you’d be buddies with fuckhisfaceyahoo or you wish you were.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    So I am despicable for thinking war is disgusting. Thanks I suppose. Goes to show how all these Hamas supporters think.

    mightyfoolish,

    People are replying to you because you are trying to downplay genocide. You also just called people getting mad at children dying as Hamas supporters. You are being obtuse.

    liuther9,

    He is getting paid for these comments for sure

    mightyfoolish, (edited )

    It’s something we will never know. I did hear Israel has a division of people meant to astroturf reddit and other sites (which is supposed to be against reddit’s terms of services). Always be careful when dealing with internet strangers.

    Interestingly, someone who defended Israel tried to shift some of the blame to the Romans last week (yes, I do get it was sarcasm but now all I hear in my head is: “The Romans, also are Hamas.”)

    snugglesthefalse,

    The other way would be that they weren’t genocidal and maybe the problem wouldn’t have happened in the first place. Israel and Hamas are both despicable groups but there’s a clear instigator in Israel.

    Maggoty,

    Hi, resident American combat vet here. This is egregious by any standard but a genocidal regime. It’s a pretty clear rule, if they aren’t armed or uniformed, you don’t shoot them.

    MeanEYE, (edited )
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    If it were like that, it wouldn’t be as bad. But internet is full of videos proving otherwise, USA soldiers included.

    Maggoty,

    Oh? There are videos of US soldiers shooting civilians just walking around without guns and in civilian clothes?

    Please send them to the Pentagon and NYT. There’s some people who would be very interested in them.

    stewie3128,

    Here you go: wikileaks.org/wiki/Collateral_Murder,_5_Apr_2010

    Maggoty,

    And the US Army released the investigation done that day. There were RPGs on the ground there. There was also a pattern of attacks going on with that unit and kneeling around the wall isn’t how any reporter I ever met overseas took a photo. Hell half the time they waved at us to make sure we knew they were there.

    It sucks that the Reuters guys embedded with anti coalition forces, but it’s a risk just like embedding with us was.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    So now you trust US army for analyzing their own footage, but not IDFs analysis of their own.

    Maggoty,

    The IDF hasn’t earned it.

    They blew up a group of reporters standing in the open, clearly marked, with nothing else around them.

    They refuse to let Gazans evacuate the combat area through their lines.

    There are multiple cases of them shooting unarmed civilians. Including their own hostages.

    And they refuse to either let aid agencies do their job or to provide that aid themselves, fomenting a famine.

    There has been zero accountability for any of the war crimes above.

    Also, the US Army didn’t just release a puff piece statement. They declassified their on the ground investigation that was done as a routine matter right after the engagement. When I say pictures of the RPGs, I don’t mean video stills to argue over. I mean actual pictures taken by soldiers.

    MeanEYE, (edited )
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    They blew up a group of reporters standing in the open, clearly marked, with nothing else around them.

    So did USA, multiple times. Link. You don’t even have to search hard to find it.

    They refuse to let Gazans evacuate the combat area through their lines.

    There was a humanitarian corridor before. Not sure why there isn’t one now. But claiming they won’t let them pass is not really true since they did let them pass.

    There are multiple cases of them shooting unarmed civilians. Including their own hostages.

    Same with USA, see Collateral Murder leaks page on WikiLeaks. Direct video link

    And they refuse to either let aid agencies do their job or to provide that aid themselves, fomenting a famine.

    I’ve never seen this. From the news I read, aid is going in there but civilians are being beaten by Hamas and stolen supplies from. There were also reports of shooting at people getting the aid because IDF soldiers were afraid of stampede. So either people are getting aid and getting shot at or not.

    Edit: As claimed by COGAT, there’s no issues for aid to get to the people. UNRWA is not allowed though due to their ties to Hamas.

    There has been zero accountability for any of the war crimes above.

    Even if there is to be accountability, it won’t come now but long after the war. And it’s nothing new for any guilty party never to get condemned for anything. USA did it number of times, China does it all the time, etc. Hell even NATO bombed refugee convoy in Serbia killing thousands of civilians without armed escort and nothing. This is nothing strange. Rules for the big countries are not the same as for smaller countries.

    Also, the US Army didn’t just release a puff piece statement. They declassified their on the ground investigation that was done as a routine matter right after the engagement.

    Actually no. They did cover up things multiple times. Also many videos leaked, which is the reason why Julian Assange is a wanted man across the globe as is Edward Snowden. You think they are hiding abroad in countries who oppose USA because they expect fair legal process? No, they will be swallowed by the darkness the moment they enter any country allied with USA.

    Also let us not forget that in Iraq, at peak there were 29k civilian deaths per year. PER YEAR. And war went on for 6 years. So where are calls for genocide there?

    As far as I can see you guys are picking favorites and turning blind eye. While pointing fingers at others.

    Maggoty,

    Every international aid NGO out there is saying Israel isn’t letting in enough food. But you’re going to cite a puff statement from Israel on Twitter? That dog doesn’t hunt.

    And I feel for that reporter but his facts don’t align with reality. That’s a story I’ve seen in a lot of people with moral injury PTSD. If you convince yourself the facts are different then you can get some relief. It does not however change the meaning of words or the actions of the group the reporters were in.

    It’s also a far sight from shooting unarmed civilians who are just walking.

    michaelmrose,

    There are. See “collateral murder” or the guy we literally prosecuted for this which Trump pardoned. We also kicked down a lot of doors and dropped a lot of missiles on slim intelligence knowing we were killing hundreds of thousands of innocents in aggregate. None of this info is secret. We kidnapped people in Iraq and tortured them to give up names of their confederates and kicked down doors and murdered people based on this intelligence. See the Salem witch trials for why this method of intelligence gathering isn’t worth shit.

    At one point we dropped missiles on people purely based correlating data about sim card usage to speculate on who was associating with terrorists in a program we now know is mathematically impossible to have been accurate.

    Not only do we have hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths on our hands directly there is all the indirect harm we are responsible for by supporting bad actors.

    None of this justifies anyone else’s bad acts. You just ought to be more aware.

    Maggoty,

    The collateral murder video is sold without context. The Army’s report has pictures of the RPGs on the ground.

    Trump had to pardon that guy because the military was going to put him in prison.

    None of this is a culture so reckless we’re just bombing random civilians walking down the road. Even the torture had to be kept secret from everyone else and resulted in court martials until it was just completely removed from the normal military.

    We’ve certainly had our problems but at the end of the day the difference is we at least try to have accountability. We keep fighting against war criminals and forcing them to find other ways to work.

    michaelmrose,

    What kind of accountability do we have where even the few people punished for the direct crimes are let off

    Maggoty,

    We absolutely put war criminals in prison before Trump, and we will again. One high profile shit stain doesn’t invalidate over a decade of prosecuting war crimes.

    jimbolauski,

    There was a 2nd explosion right after the 1st was that a 2nd missile or an IED?

    Linkerbaan, (edited )
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Another israeli bomb you can see it flying from the top left of the frame.

    Here’s a slow mo compilation with red circles: NSFL (Gore + Death): imgur.com/a/e1XWdfY

    Credit to this Twitter user

    jimbolauski,

    Thanks for pointing that out its hard to spot with the rubble in the background.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    If you’re interested, I found a clearer post, I updated my previous comment, it shows the bombs pretty well.

    locke,

    What’s the context? Why were they targetted?

    SmilingSolaris,

    You’ve seen the context for months now. They were born in Gaza. That’s the context.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Right, so why let other two million walk normally?

    goferking0,

    You mean the ones they’re starving?

    Maggoty,

    They have killed other people just for walking around.

    theneverfox,
    @theneverfox@pawb.social avatar

    They have not! Only those who have done suspicious things, like standing in a bread line

    locke, (edited )

    Ok, so you believe they were just random targets and nothing significant happened before this footage to make them become targets?

    Have they been identified?

    mamotromico,

    Wouldn’t be the first time.

    locke,

    That’s true. On the other hand, a lot of propaganda is constructed at the limit of what’s believable.

    tocopherol,
    @tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    They don’t bother to identify them, if they are male between the ages of 16 and 50 they label them a potential combatant. They have been bombing civilians indiscriminately for years, but they have upped the intensity to levels unseen in years.

    Scrof,

    Source: your asshole, I presume.

    tocopherol,
    @tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    It’s been a common practice for militaries all over, it’s not a secret, you can read about it elsewhere if you like. You are right though, my source is my personal knowledge of the subject.

    dbilitated,
    @dbilitated@aussie.zone avatar

    Israel is killing everyone who lives in Gaza so they can take their land

    MeanEYE, (edited )
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Then they are doing a shit job, considering almost 2 million of them remains. Either that or that’s not the goal.

    dbilitated,
    @dbilitated@aussie.zone avatar

    Hitler didn’t eradicate the Jewish people. Are you saying that means he wasn’t actually trying?

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Nope. Am saying that your comment is wrong. If Israel was trying to do systematic destruction number of deaths would be far higher in such densely populated area. And it’s not.

    nomous,

    Oh well it’s ok then I guess, they haven’t built gas chambers so it’s not efficient. Two missiles for 4 people really isn’t cost-effective, I see what you mean.

    In your opinion, how efficient does it have to be before they’re trying to “systematically destroy” Palestine?

    mwguy,

    Gaza isn’t large. You could legitimately destroy 90% of standing structures with 10-20k tomahawk-esque missiles. You could like do the same thing with 5-10x the number of artillery shells.

    SwingingTheLamp,

    Genocide is not the goal, but we have been able to accurately predict Israel’s next action every step of the way by simply looking at the script for what a genocidal regime would do. But genocide is not Israel’s goal. It just looks that way. Maybe a weird coincidence.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Why should I believe you or anyone, and not people who are on the ground there. We hear aid is provided, we hear aid is taken away from civilians by Hamas beating people, we hear people selling aid packages to others civilians. We hear all sorts of things. But all you people do is ignore whatever narrative you don’t like and focus on one thing. By that measure you can say USA is killing innocent civilians when they dropped that aid package which crushed some of them.

    SwingingTheLamp,

    You don’t have to believe me, but I’m happy to show my work:

    The state of Israel has always rejected the one-state solution and the right-of-return. (It makes political sense, as the Jews would be outnumbered in their own state in a few decades.) It has also rejected or sabotaged a two-state solution by expanding settlements, a process which has ramped up in recent months, so there’s nowhere for a second state to exist. Thus, the people of Palestine cannot live in Israel, and they cannot live in Palestine. No other nations would take that many refugees, so they also cannot leave. The, uhh, remaining solution is to kill them, and the IDF feels no compunction about doing exactly that. For decades, genocide hasn’t been the avowed goal of the state of Israel, just the inescapable conclusion of a cruel logic.

    That brings us up to last October. So what would a genocidal regime do in Israel’s place, if it wanted to exterminate a group of people with enough plausible deniability to avoid triggering intervention by the rest of the world? Cut off incoming food, water, and energy? Check, Israel has done that. Contaminate the groundwater? Check. Destroy the energy, sanitary, and transportation infrastructure? Check. Render civilian homes destroyed or unlivable, and destroy businesses? Check. Destroy the health care system? Check. Drive the population toward the border with progressive waves of attacks? Gaza City -> Khan Younis -> Rafah, check.

    And all of this, after several Israeli government officials stated explicitly that the goal is, at least, ethnic cleansing.

    theparadox, (edited )

    We hear aid is provided, we hear aid is taken away from civilians by Hamas beating people, we hear people selling aid packages to others civilians. We hear all sorts of things.

    Which of these potentially terrible things negates what has been done to the people of Gaza? The destruction of their infrastructure - housing, universities, hospitals. The killing of civilians. The living conditions. The starvation.

    So there is some, but not nearly enough aid. So some bad actors are taking advantage of the unimaginably fucked up situation there. How does that change the fact that Israel is at best using collective punishment (a war crime) and at worst committing genocide?

    TheJims,

    If the bombs a bullets don’t get them the famine certainly will.

    Keeponstalin,

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3592b215-a67f-4d8e-8a59-6cfb3b527b04.jpeg

    filister,

    Eradicating 1.5%, more than 3% injured of the population of Gaza, destroying more than 35% of the civilian buildings in Gaza, man-made starvation. And now a planned assault on Rafah, where a big chunk of the population is living in nightmarish conditions. Is this what you call little?

    And believe me the actual number of the casualties is much bigger, considering that there isn’t an independent verification of the direct and indirect casualties. I am sure far rights in Israel are elated.

    ZeroTHM,

    I’m not trying to be dense here, but is there a better way to conquer and take land? If taking the land is the strategic objective, how else should they proceed other than to clear it off its current populace?

    locke,

    If that’s their goal, aren’t they progressing rather slowly? Gaza’s population is growing, not diminishing.

    tocopherol,
    @tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Gazas population isn’t currently growing, over 32,000 Palestinians have been killed since October

    Maggoty,

    Yeah that’s a bit hyperbolic. They just want to force them out. Just a little ethnic cleansing.

    locke,

    They just want to force them out. Just a little ethnic cleansing.

    Yeah, that’s certainly easier to imagine.

    Emerald, (edited )

    No no no they just want to kill Hamas. If they kill everyone they see, then chances are they will eventually kill all Hamas as well. /s

    barsoap,

    “Intent to destroy in part or whole”. Number doesn’t matter, and consequently neither does not keeping up with population growth it’s still genocide.

    Keeponstalin, (edited )

    Israel was founded on Settler Colonialism and ethnic cleansing, both fundamental to Zionism

    The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 culminating to Plan Dalet in 1948, more details here.

    You can learn more in the Apartheid Reports

    Amnesty International Report

    Human Rights Watch Report

    B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer

    SuckMyWang,

    They cannot say because they were a threat. Unless they had intel on who these men were? But by the looks of it I can’t imagine any person who is a militant would be walking like these men.

    zenitsu,

    You people are brain dead beyond belief. “thEy dOnT wAlk liKe miLitAnts” lmao

    Zuberi,
    @Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    This guy seems mad lmao

    moitoi,

    Genocide. Genocide.

    catsarebadpeople,

    The goal is to kill every single Palestinian so that is why they were targeted

    Scrof,

    Where did you hear that? On Chinese TikTok?

    catsarebadpeople,

    No your mom told me

    zazo,

    How about people openly calling for the genocide of Palestine on live television?

    Keeponstalin,

    For being Palestinian

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