All part of the attempt to sway the next election. Gives Cucker Tarlson an interview where he (Putin) proceeds to paint all of his actions as a poor humble Russian leader just trying to protect his own people from the big bad Ukranians. Then follows it up with an offer to negotiate peace, which shockingly the evil dictator Biden refuses to do. If only we had someone like the Cheeto Benito who’s interested in peace leading the US, everything would be so much better for everyone! Queue troll farm spamming Twitter
Next time you wanna reverse the flow of your internal plumbing and spew fecal matter all over your keyboard, do it on an account that isn’t a two-week-old keyboard smash. Maybe get some more posts in your history. One could see what this one is from orbit.
When can we expect the United States out of the dozens of countries they’ve illegally invaded and neocolonized, then? Can I expect you to sit there and be quiet if another world power decided they wanted to arm and train Mali, Niger, and Burkina Faso to start driving the settler military and its eagerly-tapdancing puppets out of the Motherland the same way you sit on your hands for Ukraine?
Or is this just about maintaining hegemon over the vassals and encircling, then unlimitedly genociding an entity that hasn’t even been Soviet for 40 years?
There’s no negotiation needed. Russia moving out of Ukraine and paying for all damage until everything is pre crimea. If that is all done, rebuild and paid for, then, they can negotiate for less punishment on top. That’s the kind of negotiation you start because both sides have something to gain and not one to keep his unjustified war territory.
Even if there is no punishment on top, if Putin ends up losing all he gained, heads will roll including Putin’s. If he can gain any amount of land in a negotiation and end the war, he can go back to his people and say that it was all worth it and many of them will buy it.
Not a single paragraph about the actual demands of Russia. Which they have stated often enough. Basically they don’t want NATO right on their doorstep. This is what this whole war was about. But somehow this is never seriously discussed in western media.
If buying stuff from the other side is your yardstick, NATO clearly wasn't a threat to Russia. Germany, Italy, France, and America were all some of Russia's largest import sources in 2021.
I am using your argument… to point out… your argument makes no god-damn sense. I don’t believe your argument. I am highlighting how, if you believed your argument, you’d find it fucks up your conclusion. But you don’t care.
You’re just making mouth noises to justify a conclusion you picked well before any argument-shaped sentences.
im straight up telling you what made me come to my conclusion and repeating it back to me doesnt make much sense to me if your goal is to convincing me otherwise.
You said Russia can’t be the aggressor, because Europe did business with them.
If we pretend that’s relevant: it’d mean Europe can’t be the aggressor either, because Russia did business with them. So I guess nobody invaded anybody?
Meanwhile in reality, Russia invaded Ukraine. Which is pretty goddamn aggressive. And exactly what Europe expected could happen. And in fact, part of what doing business with Russia was intended to prevent. Didn’t work. Doesn’t mean Europe was somehow at fault for the country that keeps invading its neighbors, invading its neighbors. A country that does so with such regularity, most of Europe is in the Stop Russia Invading Its Neighbors club (which borders with Russia, how dare they!), and Russia still invades its neighbors who aren’t in the club. Whilst telling them: this is the stop-us-invading-you club’s fault. Which is fucking nonsense.
Anyway your hot take on all this has been shuffling cards in search of relevant excuses, so I think we’re done forever.
This whole shit storm has been about one thing. Putins legacy as the czar that reformed the USSR. That’s it. He wants to lift the iron curtain high once more. It’s all dick stroking by a madman.
Russia said since 2014 this was about NATO. Even before they protested strongly the NATO expansion. So how can it not be about NATO? You’re either completely uninformed or lying.
Uh… yes, we do? I mean not only about NATO, but definitely also about NATO. Even liberals like Jeffrey Sachs and radlibs like Noam Chomsky and undead ghouls like Henry Kissinger agree.
It’s an element but anyone saying the war was started because of NATO is clearly bullshitting. Now if you were to ask why the war is still going on despite both sides wanting peace, NATO is a pretty succinct and accurate explanation.
Well if you insist on not taking Russia seriously - then you must be very pleased with the result. Maybe you should call Putin a Hitler a few more times, that will solve everything :D
I’m a Lemmygrad Andy, if there’s any tankie in this conversation, it’s me. Person’s on ee they’re probably only parroting outdated propaganda because they’re a neo-reactionary, (or an outright fascist) not because they’re communist.
Putin’s agenda of steering the American right into self-destruction to neutralize their geopolitical opponent is going to result in a lot of lot of neo-fascists hitting themselves out of confusion, so keep your eyes open for that.
It is discussed, it doesn’t stand up to any reasoning as to why they captured the Crimean peninsula. They also stated that it was because Ukraine couldn’t stop the rise of Nazism. So which is it? NATO or Nazis?
Ukraine is an independent country and if they want to join NATO they can, having a legitimate grievance doesn’t excuse an invasion.
And even if it was true and was accepted, what a disaster it was because it bolstered a floundering NATO, grew membership and increased military spending across the continent. Truly a genius move.
I think you’re missing a paragraph that tells how the border between Russia and NATO increased twofold since (and as the result of) the invasion.
“Hey it’s all about NATO. We always wanted less NATO at our doorsteps, and you can see we tried our best to achieve this. That backfired, yes, but we ask you once again to… Ask all those countries nicely to withdraw from NATO. Having NATO at our borders is not healthy for our people, you see… With all those bio laboratories… And parent№1+parent№2 policy that you force on everyone…”
If this war was about having NATO on their doorstep, why is it an invasion of a non-NATO country twenty years after the first neighbours of Russia joined NATO? It's never seriously discussed because it's either a lie or unfathomably stupid, and whichever of those two it is doesn't much matter.
Just for a second, imagine you're a neutral country in eastern Europe. Russia has been fucking with Georgia and Moldova since the fall of the Soviet Union, and now it invades Ukraine for the second time within a decade. Russia has never touched a NATO country despite bordering several of them for literally decades. And then Russia acts all shocked when you say you want into NATO
Yeah and Russia protested strongly every time. But Ukraine was their red line. Just because you didn’t read it in western media doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
I don’t condone the invasion but it was predictable and a colossal “failure” of diplomacy if you look at it charitably. At worst it was a long term plan to force Russia into a conflict with the aid of western media to obscure the reason why this war was happening. Russia is acting just like the US would.
Read the message you were replying to. I asked specifically how do you force a country to invade a other country (that is not yours). You told about Cuba, so naturally I wanted to confirm if you mean the situation was caused by desire of Soviets to start the aggression.
It was the other way, the “Cuban” missile crisis happened when USA wasn’t happy when USSR responded in kind to USA placing missiles in Turkey. So it should be called “Turkish missile crisis” and really “USA missile crisis”.
Just the western popular propaganda conveniently omits who was the instigator of entire issue, but it’s not that hard to find.
Please explain how exactly do you force someone (who suggests to be reasonable) into conflict, basically force them to invade anyone.
Well imagine if China were to make a military pact with Mexico and started delivering “defensive” weapon systems to them. There would be protests, sanctions, meddling and attempts for regime change, and if those didn’t work there would be invasion.
For the US to invade another country it actually takes far less. Getting bombed is super easy.
Do you live in some alternative reality where the US didn’t invade Irak and Afghanistan? And is bombing countries all over the world for whatever reason? Oh let me guess that is TOTALLY different!
We all live in a reality where the US did invade Iraq and Afghanistan. And here is the thought process of me trying to understand your reasoning behind mentioning these events in current context:
The US asked many times for Iraq and Afghanistan to not try to oppose them. According to the US, Iraq and Afghanistan bombed its own citizens (who call themselves the people of the US) for several (at least 8) years and finally the US decided to intervene.
But in fact it must have been caused by someone else, like China or Russia. They provided Iraq and Afghanistan with weapons and/or proposed them the place in alliance against the US, which is why the US didn’t have a choice.
From the very start of those invasions, the whole world decided to stand against the US and provided Iraq and Afghanistan with all the weapons and resources they could need in order to protect themselves. Massive sanctions were applied against the US to stop its war machine.
The US massively increased pressure on free speech and started to jail its own citizens who speak against the war. This also caused at least 1 percent of the US population to migrate elsewhere.
Because this all (or at least some of it) happened with the US, there is no problem in assuming that it would be fine to happen with other country (like Russia) and nobody should say a word against that country’s right for protecting its interests.
If this is what really happened then you are correct and this not “totally different” but exactly the same.
But if there are differences, I hope you can explain them without involving any kind of “injustice” towards Russia.
But if there are differences, I hope you can explain them without involving any kind of “injustice” towards Russia.
Geography? Hey wait, you’re trying to trick me! If I explain the differences I loose the debate!
My point is that from Russia’s point of view (true or not) NATO is a hostile military alliance that has slowly been encircling Russia for the past decades. Russia’s protests were ignored so after the 2014 coup supported by literal Nazis (from their point of view) they started to use military interventions. US / EU / NATO did double down on arming Ukraine with weapons so they saw themselves “forced” to invade.
I’m not excusing any of this - but these choices and events made this war predictable and inevitable. I’d go so far and say that if Putin hadn’t invaded Ukraine he would have been deposed by the militaristic powers he cultivated. It’s like poking a bear and then crying foul when he eats your face.
Thus my example about China arming Mexico. The US would react in the exact same way, and we have ample historical evidence for that. And it’s not my point that this excuses anything, it’s that these things are predictable so we do carry a responsibility to deescalate, demand negotiations so Ukraine gets their land back while Russia gets security guarantees. But judging by the complete troll answer in Tuckers Putin interview that isn’t in the cards right now.
But there was no resistance to this geopolitical “gambit”. And now everyone is presenting a completely false version of history.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Putin’s point of view does only represent a sad guy who lives in lies and outside of real information from the outside world. Real Russians have almost no interest or connection to their own country and decisions “it” makes. They’re only trying to survive. They only know about NATO from state media. There was even an interview (possibly not one) that NATO gave for Russians to make them understand what’s really happening. But state media is not interested in such things or would have called it all lies. Logic they force on citizens is always twisted and there is no point in last 10 years at least where I could say Russians actually had a point of view of their own.
NATO is a hostile military alliance that has slowly been encircling Russia for the past decades
It also expanded last year. When do you think Putin will hit Finland? Why did he not protest before that happened? Oh right, you only want to describe Russia’s point of view, not the logic behind it.
The quote is also not much different from something like “NASA has been slowly washing people’s brains for past decades”. You can’t seriously explain someone’s actions while assuming it’s fine for them to be out of touch with the reality.
US / EU / NATO did double down on arming Ukraine
You sure? They have been arming Ukraine before the invasion? Did they also not arm the rest of Europe? Putin allowed that?
I’m not excusing any of this - but these choices and events made this war predictable and inevitable
I’d ask you to provide sources on this. Are there any reputable experts or otherwise sources that correctly predicted the war? Are there so many of them to call it obvious? Why was it not at all obvious to Russian citizens at the very least?
Thus my example about China arming Mexico. The US would react in the exact same way, and we have ample historical evidence for that. And it’s not my point that this excuses anything, it’s that these things are predictable so we do carry a responsibility to deescalate, demand negotiations so Ukraine gets their land back while Russia gets security guarantees.
We have historical evidence for something that never happened?
Where is the logicality in your comments? Did you mention the US invasions to Iraq and Afghanistan to say how they were predictable? That some other countries could prevent those from happening by giving the US security guarantees?
Why not mention how Poland provoked Hitler to start the world war, according to Putin?
Careful there, people might think you are a Russian bot.
Did those countries make a part with China who planned to force the US to attack its neighbors? Yeah I think not.
Cases you mentioned do not have any power to justify Russian aggression.
So I repeat the question: how exactly is it possible to cause a country that is adequate to invade another country? You said it was the plan of the US or NATO or something. Tell us how did they achieve the state where Putin is embarrassing himself by fighting the US/NATO “aggression” at the Ukrainian territory, and how that helps him.
I doubt many here will defend the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Neither of these invasions should have happened, BUT no they are not the same. In case of Afghanistan the US supported the Northern alliance in a pre-existing civil war. Iraq was lead by a brutal dictator who had been involved in wars of aggression (Kuwait) and genocide (Kurds).
I could list some of Russia’s justifications for invasion, but they are just as flimsy as the US justifications for killing hundreds of thousands of people and devastating many countries.
My point isn’t to justify Russia or the US, it’s pointing out without a popular push for peace these wars will keep happening. Instead we’re seeing a completely brainwashed majority scream for total war and just eat up the propaganda.
So invading Ukraine fixes what for Russia, exactly? The fastest way to make more of Russia's neighbours join NATO is to show them that they're safer in NATO. Like Finland.
Ukrainians mostly weren't interested in joining NATO until Russia took Crimea. Russia pushed Ukraine towards NATO.
“Ukraine applied to integrate with a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008. Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych”. Then the Euromaiden protests happened. Then Crimea etc.
It’s pretty safe to assume that both Russia and the US meddled in the respective election through NGOs and whatnot. My point is that these are geopolitical games which both sides play and which should be reported as such. Then we’d have a chance to protest for peace negotiations. But as is there is an overwhelming amount of pro-war sentiment.
Public support for joining NATO among polled Ukrainians was very clearly the minority up until Russia invaded.
But as is there is an overwhelming amount of pro-war sentiment.
There's an overwhelming amount of anti-invasion sentiment. People that support arming Ukraine support Ukraine's right to not have chunks carved out of it just because its neighbour has a bigger army.
So what? My point was that there were no concrete plans to expand to Ukraine when Putin took Crimea in 2014. If the problem is NATO expansion why invade a country where NATO is not expanding to?
I guess ignoring how Ukrainians ran the russian puppet heading their country out of the country just before the Crimean invasion of 2014 is convenient for your point.
Appeasement does not work. It has never worked. It didnt work in Sudetenland, it didnt work in Crimea, and it would never have worked with Donbas, either.
Oh no, i compared facsists to other fascists. But keep going with the false equivalences, thats certainly the way to convince the voters thats working for u.
In case u other readers havent been paying attention, russia is still threatening Poland, Lithuania, and Finland just as they have been for their whole history.
My hole point is that Russia is portrayed as a demonic, irrational Hitler that can’t be reasoned with. So all their demands are irrelevant and negotiations useless. And nato and the US empire is just a well meaning benevolent force that nobody has any reason to oppose. So we have to keep the war going!
That is the propaganda. And so far all the replies have basically confirmed this.
I guess ignoring how Ukrainians ran the russian puppet heading their country out of the country
A very euphemistic way to describe a coup. It’s amazing how much liberals start to sound like January 6th MAGA chuds as soon as it’s about a foreign country.
Context and nuance sure are dead, arent they, folks? Those of you reading that dont have opinions bought and paid for by the russian govt, please look more into the euro maidan protests. The Ukrainian ppl overwhelmingly rejected russian interests running their country.
It sickens me how much fascist deflection there is on online spaces. Take note that immediately the russian trolls/bots try to conflate any and all politics with trumpism in hopes of muddying political rhetoric in YOUR respective countries. Bc when u cant convince the proles to vote for trump/johnson/bolsonaro/orban/la pen, u can still convince them not to vote against them either.
Very interesting how these efforts have been ramped up in time for election season in the most powerful nation on the planet. Stay sane folks.
“The white conservatives aren’t friends of the Negro either, but they at least don’t try to hide it. They are like wolves; they show their teeth in a snarl that keeps the Negro always aware of where he stands with them. But the white liberals are foxes, who also show their teeth to the Negro but pretend that they are smiling. The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and as the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the “smiling” fox.” – Malcolm X
Republicans and Democrats descend from the same genetic ancestors: white supremacy and Amerikan exceptionalism. Still a dog, just built different between the two.
You mean when the occupiers of Turtle Island couped Poroshenko Yanukovych and installed a regime full of Banderite proto-nazis on the take from Anglo settlers? Yeah, I remember that; my next door neighbor got his old home ransacked, raided, and eventually flattened by the fighting that came to his city. He barely made it out alive; and STILL has to look up and down the street before he opens his door so we can talk-- just so he can make sure someone’s not trundling down the drive to drag him back. I remember that well.
I don’t want you to be on the internet, but that’s not a decision I get to make, just like Russia doesn’t gets to decide what its sovereign neighbors do. Because they’re not Russia’s, and don’t have to do what Russia says.
If might makes right, then NATO has the right to absolutely roll over Russia and make it their bitch. But that’s not how international law works, and everyone except Russia is still trying to play nice, as much as they can.
Their demands are irrelevant while on the soil of a sovereign nation without authorization or sufficient leverage. Both of which are not only lacking but severely so.
Because they don’t get the option to choose. It’s not that difficult. Those countries weren’t clamoring to join NATO until Russia invaded, so its their own fault.
Basically they don’t want NATO right on their doorstep.
NATO is not the anti-Russia club. They’re a defensive pact. Why would you be concerned about your neighbours agreeing to defend each other? Like a neighbourhood watch, perhaps. Maybe you’d be upset if you’re planning to do the thing they’re defending against. Which is all the more reason for those neighbours to band together.
You know, you have a point. But I’ll note both instances had the UN request NATO intervention. Russia could have blocked either with their veto in the UN Security Council, but they didn’t.
Not to mention the actual voting on intervention was in the start of 1992, when the comprador Russian government (the same one btw that got promised by USA they won’t add former socialist countries to NATO) was choking on USA boot.
Yugoslavia would levy a disagreement about NATO’s status as a “defensive pact”; as would every Nazi who’s historically headed that “dEfEnSiVe AlLiAnCe”. They’re just bodies on tap for the Five-Eyed Empire. As offensive as they’re needed, at that.
NATO was founded pretty much explicitly as the anti-USSR club. And it doesn’t even matter what it factually is - it’s what Russia perceives it as. See their final ultimatum: en.wikipedia.org/…/Vladimir_Putin's_December_2021…
That’s how Putin claims to perceive it, but that’s also what he would claim if his actual goal was to control his neighbours by force. And don’t forget Finland and Sweden responded to the invasion of Ukraine by joining NATO. If Russia perceived NATO as a threat, then Finland joining would make them more likely to be attacked. Clearly Finland feels NATO is making them safer or they wouldn’t have joined. And since then, Russia has moved tons of their military away from NATO borders and into Ukraine.
In other words, I trust the actions of Finland and Russia more than I trust the words of Russia.
Because it’s invaders demanding unprotected targets. It’s the dumbest propaganda imaginable. What is it doing in your mouth?
“We want the Stop Russia Invading Shit Alliance to be further away from Russia! To prove we’re serious, Russia will invade countries that aren’t yet part of the alliance.”
I wonder if you guys realize that Russia is achieving it’s war objectives? West-Ukraine won’t join NATO anytime soon, because they know what will happen. This war also has seriously long term destabilizing effects on Europe - at least on their democracies (refugees, tax burden / austerity).
It’s ludicrous to say that Russia’s protests about NATO are bogus - because they protested about it for decades, ever since the US broke their agreement with Gorbachev to not expand NATO eastwards. It’s just a historical fact that you want to alter in order to justify not negotiating. I’m used to these “alternative facts” level of brainwashing from trumpists but not from liberals.
More countries joined NATO, Russia’s slaughtering a generation of Russians, their money is gone, their equipment is gone, and their big scary mercenary force openly tried to overthrow the government. Wow. What victorious progress.
At this rate NATO’s gonna disband because there won’t be a Russia.
U.S. and Ukrainian officials say that the best Ukraine’s military can hope for in the coming year, especially without more American aid, is to defend its current positions. Even so, Biden officials say they are not entertaining the idea of pressing Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, to negotiate with Mr. Putin.
This is the most eloquent. If you can’t fight a war for win, then it’s reasonable to try to gain some better results through negotiations. But the white masters don’t care about the losses of aboriginals.
Are you implying that white masters exist and implying that a European country can’t decide what’s better for it without consulting with white masters at the same time? Can I say that you are brainwashed by black masters?
Bad take. Why negotiate with an aggressor who is literally invading and trying to absorb a neighbor. You would be rewarding that behavior and Russia gets to stop their unpopular war at the same time.
he doesn’t get to invade and then negotiate to keep part of the place he invaded
Are you at all familiar with any history at all? How do you think such treaties usually go? Or did you think borders spent the last couple millenia shifting mysteriously without reason?
The wider international community has largely rejected wars of conquest as legitimate in modern times.
The exact same argument could be applied to Israel and e.g. the Golan Heights, but I don't think you'll find that to be a particularly popular position.
Are you so naive to think that Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and even the 2013 coup in Ukraine were not acts of conquest of the US empire? Perhaps you’re correct that the wider international community has rejected acts of conquest, but this certainly doesn’t include the USA, who is quite literally a rogue state.
I mean, Putin won’t either, the negotiations are just for gaslighting and propaganda. Basically it’s about not negotiating with terrorists, America has plenty other wars going on and even without Ukraine intends to increase military spending. They don’t need it, but it’s not up to them if it ends.
Basically it’s about not negotiating with terrorists, America has plenty other wars going on
This level of double think is really amazing. Within one sentence, “US has plenty of wars” -> good guys, Putin has one war -> terrorist, literally Hitler.
I’m not condoning Putin btw. It’s just baffling all the excuses that are made for US aggression vs Russian aggression. Can you imagine if China put their weapons into Mexico? They’d be stupid to do that. But that’s what Ukraine wants. In the end it’s Ukraine, Russia and the tax payer that looses.
It’s not about moral arguments or right or wrong. No matter the reason or circumstance, the US would never allow it. Any president not being aggressive about “Chinese weapons on our doorstep” would be ousted. My point is that a decision was made which was a red line for Russia. But we only ever talk about Russia not the deliberate crossing of the red line.
It’s just baffling all the excuses that are made for US aggression vs Russian aggression
It can't be both. Which is it? Because the point here is that America giving Ukraine weapons is more justified specifically because of Russia's aggression.
Neither. Both can be wrong. Russia protested and warned about NATO eastward expansion for decades. So what do you do?
What pretty clearly happened is that certain elements pushed for NATO inclusion and (mostly exclusive!) EU trade well before 2008. Russia pushed for a more Russia friendly regime. Both sides interfered until the result became a devastating war.
So every sensible person should protest in favor of peace negotiations. But that doesn’t happen. The western media portrays any peace negotiations as useless or as a ploy. I mean read the article.
Russia could stop making all of its neighbours feel like they need protection from it, perhaps.
(mostly exclusive!) EU trade
Alright, please explain to me step-by-step how you expect Ukraine to join two separate and incompatible free trade areas. Because that's what the argument at the time was about: which FTA to join, the EU-led DCFTA or the Russia-led CISFTA
Russia pushed for a more Russia friendly regime
"The EU wanted a trade deal with Ukraine and Russia wanted to choose Ukraine's government." Why are you acting like these are equivalent?
But that doesn’t happen
I don't think it's my place to tell Ukrainians to submit to subjugation
how you expect Ukraine to join two separate and incompatible free trade areas
Well aren’t you explaining it perfectly? Ukraine would have to leave the one and join the other.
And yeah I agree with all your sentiments, Ukraine should be free. But we can also agree that Russia is not acting completely randomly but out of self interest. And also that Russia is perfectly capable of invading a country and fucking up their shit. Right? We can agree that one should take Russia seriously? And be smart and careful?
It’s not about Russia being right, it’s about not being stupid and provoking them. Ukraine absolutely had a right to join NATO and it was absolutely clear that they would get in trouble and shouldn’t have tried it. Fuckers like Stoltenberg shouldn’t have encouraged it.
I don't think I've ever suggested that Russia is acting randomly. I agree completely that Russia is acting in Russia's interests. I just don't think it follows from that that everyone else should just lie down and and let Russia do whatever it wants, so if countries that have the power and will to oppose Russia's morally objectionable actions wish to do so then good on them in my book.
I don’t think I’ve ever suggested that Russia is acting randomly.
I’m not sure what you are suggesting except “Total victory or death (for Ukrainians)”.
But you clearly said that this was not about NATO. Which means there are no clear reasons since the stated reasons by Russia are a lie, which means there is nothing to negotiate.
EDIT: It should be our responsibility not to fuel the war into an endless conflict, but to push both sides to negotiate a diplomatic solution. But this can’t happen if the reasons for the conflict are consistently misrepresented by the media.
I'm suggesting that NATO should arm Ukraine to defend itself for so long as Ukraine wants to keep fighting.
But you clearly said that this was not about NATO. Which means there are no clear reasons since the stated reasons by Russia are a lie
No, it does not mean that. If Russia achieves its goals then it acquires millions of new citizens, a lot of the world's most fertile land, a very strategically valuable port (that it was leasing until recently), and the water supply for that port. These would all make Russia significantly more powerful.
Of course, I don't think that Russia deserves a goddamn thing out of any negotiations. Ideally the only negotiations will be how Russia will pay reparations to Ukraine. But again, it's not my place to tell Ukraine what to do. I just think that we should put Ukraine in a position to be able to decide for itself. If Ukraine decides to negotiate and accept some losses in order to end the war, that's Ukraine's call; the point is it has to be strong enough to be able to make the decision, not have it made for it by Russia.
No, it does not mean that. If Russia achieves its goals then it acquires millions of new citizens, a lot of the world’s most fertile land, a very strategically valuable port (that it was leasing until recently), and the water supply for that port. These would all make Russia significantly more powerful.
Well you’re basically spelling it out - the objective is to fuck Russia. I don’t really have anything against that except: 1. It costs the lives of many Ukrainian and Russian people and 2. I prefer at least some balance of power instead of letting the US run unopposed and roughshod over the world
The objective is only "fuck Russia" if by "fuck Russia" you mean "prevent Russia from violently stealing a bunch of stuff from another country". If that's what you mean, then yes, the objective is fuck Russia. If that's what "fuck Russia" means, Russia deserves to be fucked and brought it upon itself.
It costs the lives of many Ukrainian and Russian people
NATO has no leverage to make Ukraine keep fighting. If Ukraine decides it would rather capitulate, what is NATO going to do about it? The thing that is costing Ukrainian and Russian lives is Russia's attempted land grab. The deaths stop immediately if Russia just goes home.
I prefer at least some balance of power
We already have China. Russia can't play in the same league as America, it's not even close. The EU and China are pretty much the only entities that currently can. I could see India getting there reasonably soon.
We're gonna need some evidence that the first one was a NATO coup for that to be persuasive. Because frankly it is not that weird at all to me that a president suddenly and unilaterally making an enormous and unpopular shift in policy sparked large protests and opposition. Never mind that Ukrainians completely destroyed Yanukovych's party at the election only months afterwards. Never mind that Yanukovych fucking fled the country. Was Ukraine meant to just patiently wait for him to come back after he abandoned his post?
And yes, I have read the transcript of the Nuland-Pyatt call. It is not persuasive towards your claim of a NATO-backed coup. It shows that America wanted to influence who came to power afterwards, but it's very clearly reactive and not proactive. And I'm sorry, but negotiating with leaders of a movement to try to persuade them who they should work with is just not a coup.
Russia protested and warned about NATO eastward expansion for decades.
As if NATO is an entity that expands by itself huh.
Countries. Decide. To join NATO. Recent inclusions only prove that Putin’s struggle is not about NATO at all but about Ukraine. Or, more specifically, about repeating a big win in a small war that would get him whatever his ill brain imagined.
I've seen this Boris Johnson argument several times on here and never once seen anything even remotely approaching a convincing explanation of what leverage Boris ever had to do this. Like a deal for a white peace with Russia was on the table and Boris somehow twisted Zelenskyy's arm into fighting by threatening to not send weapons that wouldn't be necessary if there was peace anyway?
Putin offered a solution for negotiation plenty times. It is solely Ukraine, not even USA, with the power to end this war. But Zelensky does not want to “mysteriously” die at the hands of USA, for denying USA’s terrorist economy their profits.
There is nothing to negotiate. USA/NATO must and will lose, and its power shrink and disappear off this universe.
Putin’s “solution” has been to give him what he wants to stop his invasion. This is how bullies, terrorists, extortionists and facists “solve” problems they create. If you agree with that solution then you’re one or all of those too.
If you’re going to misuse the term “fascist”, at least fuckin spell it correctly. Jesus, and this is supposed to be a representative of the ‘greatest empire on earth’ but ain’t none of its settlers are literate.
Then you might not have known about CIA’s failed coup in 2003 (Orange protests) or the one succeeded in 2013 (Maidan protests), or the leaked Nuland-Pyatt call.
Westerners are THE most brainwashed “model” citizens that live in dictatorships, parrot the same state/military propaganda and project everything they do onto their “enemy” countries.
Nothing of what you said is relevant to the situation in Ukraine.
I swear Putin cocksuckers are THE most brainwashed “model” citizens that live in dictatorships, parrot the same state/military propaganda and what-about everything they do onto their “enemy” countries.
Be original, Western parrot. We know you are a model citizen of some English Fascism country. (Yes, INGSOC from Hitler days is very much still alive, and none of it is socialism.)
No blame here! I’m just stating a fact that the United States doesn’t want this war to ever end. It has a material interest in keeping Russia bogged down as long as possible. This is true regardless of whether you blame Russia or not.
Pounding the table doesn’t make nonsense worthwhile.
Russia alone can end this war. The US cannot continue it, if they just leave. Nobody forced them to be there. Nobody is keeping them there. It is their war of aggression, for territory. Negotiating for anything besides “fuck off already” is pointless.
Stop blaming anyone else.
Stop pretending ‘you didn’t do diplomacy about our invasion, so the invasion marches on’ is anything but blame.
Fact: the war could be ended by diplomacy. Deal with it.
Also, let me be clear - the United States will never give Ukraine enough aid to win this war. Never. The point is to keep the war going forever, not to actually beat Russia. The US has zero interest in the war ever ending, you have to realize this. It’s better for a geopolitical rival to be tangled up forever.
No negotiating, no decisive victory, just an endless quagmire that acts as a permanent drag on the US’s rival and strengthens NATO. This war is the best gift Russia could have given the US. Get it?
Again, slapping the table with ‘fact!’ ‘deal with it!’ ‘period!’ sounds childish and adds nothing.
Especially when you’re still blaming America for Russia invading Ukraine.
Like it’s our fault they’re still there. They can leave. We can’t keep them.
And if we did what you’re suggesting, and just let them have Ukraine, they would invade someone else. We know this - because Ukraine’s not the first country they’ve done this to. NATO only exists because they keep fucking doing this. All of their neighbors joined a defensive pact because of it.
But oh no no no no, if we don’t politely talk to them about it, that’s us causing this war to go on. Fuck off.
Especially when you’re still blaming America for Russia invading Ukraine.
Show me where I did that. I don’t recall.
My only point has been that America doesn’t want the war to end, and this is very obvious. Neither giving Ukraine enough supplies to win nor negotiating with Russia, just endless war.
America is not giving Ukraine enough supplies to win. This doesn’t blame America for Russia’s invasion.
America is not willing to let Ukraine negotiate with Russia. This doesn’t blame America for Russia’s invasion.
I can only conclude, based on the fact that America clearly isn’t trying to end the war, that it doesn’t want the war to ever end. This isn’t blaming America for Russia’s invasion! America baited Russia into a quagmire and sprung a trap on them, but that doesn’t change the fact that Russia fell for it. Russia may prove me wrong and show that it can somehow benefit from this, but this looks like a pretty obvious win for America.
Russia fell into a trap of America’s making, but that doesn’t mean America forced Russia to invade Ukraine or America is to blame.
Hell, America has even said that Ukraine will be allowed to join NATO after the war is over. Why not allow Ukraine to join right now? Because America doesn’t want Ukraine to win! America wants the war to last as long as Russia can sustain the fighting, because it hurts Russia.
I don’t know how much more clear I can be that America is not to blame for Russia invading Ukraine. You are so moralistic you actually can’t comprehend geopolitics as anything but a story about good guys and bad guys; you interpret any criticism of America’s handling of this war as siding with Russia, as if I support a war of aggression. Playing blame games is for children. Grow up.
America has not stopped Ukraine negotiating with Russia.
Repeatedly insisting that America is - by any means - deviously prolonging the invasion, is blaming America for the continuing invasion of Ukraine. You flat-out shrugged and treated the continued war as a given, when you blamed America for not negotiating.
Negotiating for fucking what, by the way? There is only one term that matters: leave. It is 100.0% up to Russia to do that.
America baited Russia into a quagmire and sprung a trap on them
… “bUt HoW aM i bLaMiNg AmEriCa fOr ThE iNvAsIon?!”
For the same reason people now associate conspiracy theories with the right when it started out as left-wing callouts. It’s too dangerous when used against them, so they sullied the concept so that nobody could use it.
They had a few tik toks not too long ago regarding how they are not happy about the almost nude party that happened in Moscow. In short them saying its not fair they are sweating and bleeding for elites who do not care. They are right, but they need to take the final leap in logic that they are fighting for nothing. They could mutiny in mass and go home.
See, there’s this slow motion guillotine hanging over Putin right now, and for each month of successive losses, it’ll slowly be lowered until it reaches his neck.
Then, after a new favourite of the oligarchy and the generals have rubbed a few backs and made a few promises, said favourite will come up from behind and place his foot on the blade to force it through Putin’s neck.
Dude, the war has been over for over a year, Ukraine lost, they were never going to win, it was just the west trying to use their dead bodies to damage russia.
Not sure, a few dozen it feels like; less than a hundred I think. We usually get a few Chinese or Russian shill/troll/bot complaints from the MSNBC-pilled.
I feel like we are very similar in our understanding, but we ended up on two different side of the spectrum, where I think the government is the problem, and you think the government is the solution.
Russia have lost nearly 400,000 people so far. They’ve crippled their economy and industry, not to mention scuppered any progress they made since the 90s. Ruined their growth in international standing and currently bending over for China and getting reamed on tech for the war by Iran. They have lost countless flagship military installments and their hold over the black sea.
In the nearly 10 years since their initial invasion they have captured no more than 20% of Ukraine most of which was captured in 2014s Crimean annexation.
Russian industry expanded for the third straight year in 2023 as the government’s spending on its prolonged war on Ukraine helped counter the impact of sanctions imposed by the US and its allies.
Industrial production increased by 3.5% last year after 0.6% growth in 2022, according to data published Wednesday by the Federal Statistics Service. The rise in manufacturing among industries benefiting from military orders last year more than offset a slump in mining output, data show.
The figures show businesses have adapted to “the current external economic conditions,” the Economy Ministry said in a statement late Wednesday.
The scale of Russia’s transition into a war economy was underlined by the three fastest-growing categories of manufacturing — which include goods such as bombs and weapons, aircraft and rocket engines, and ships and combat vehicles. Output under categories like “metal goods,” “computers, electronics and optics,” and “other transport” jumped by as much as a third compared to 2022.
The 1.3% drop from last year in output from extraction industries, like mining, oil and gas, was largely due to a voluntary reduction in oil production, the Economy Ministry said in a separate statement. Russia, in coordination with its OPEC+ allies, pledged last year to reduce its crude production and maintain the cuts through 2024. The country stopped disclosing data on oil output last year.
The latest data offer some support for recent claims by Russian officials that the country has boosted its military production despite efforts by the Group of Seven and the European Union to break the Kremlin’s war machine through stringent sanctions including an oil price cap. Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said Monday that production of missiles for air defense systems had doubled, without providing figures. Previously, he said tank production had also increased by seven times.
The Kremlin plans to keep the economy on a war footing for at least the next three years, according to its budget plans, ramping up spending on arms production. That’s as Ukraine is running short of weapons to protect its cities, and vital aid from the US and the EU has been tied up by political disputes.
The war, now approaching its third year, has settled into a stalemate, making a steady supply of weapons and munitions crucial to both sides.
Russian defense plants have been put on round-the-clock production schedules, and reports abound in local media of converted shopping centers and bakeries that now also manufacture military drones. Kalashnikov Concern, Russia’s flagship arms manufacturer, has developed new types of weapons that it plans to present at the World Defense Show 2024 in Saudi Arabia next week, according to state defense-industry conglomerate Rostec.
Russia has also lined up supplies of weapons and other support from Iran and North Korea. Satellite imagery since October shows a steady flow of trade between North Korea and Russia that South Korea estimates includes more than 2 million rounds of artillery and several ballistic missiles.
They spent a long time building relationships across Europe, growing ties with the west. From sports sponsorships, to infrastructure partnerships to joint ventures like the ISS. They threw all of it away.
They also made a balls of the invasion, embarrassing themselves, losing a huge amount of high ranking officials and pissed off China in doing so.
They have tacit support from India because India is getting flooded with cheap oil but that won’t last forever as the Saudis get more and more annoyed and the US continues to ramp up production.
And their operations in Africa are hampered by an international warrant meaning Putin can’t attend meetings of their new “bloc”.
They are on a war footing, war booms the economy but their currency is artificially inflated and they have hemorrhaged young graduates and skilled professionals.so manufacturing might be up because every available man is getting paid a pittance to shove artillery together but the workers left in country fear conscription and can’t afford eggs.
The border has changed very little since I think fall of 2022 if I am remembering right. The important thing is that the median or mean age of soldiers for Ukraine has gone from low 30s to 43. They are out of troops, its over.
See, there’s this slow motion guillotine hanging over Putin right now, and for each month of successive losses, it’ll slowly be lowered until it reaches his neck.
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