Germans fear migration more than climate change, study finds

Europeans — especially Germans — are increasingly keen on curbing immigration and are less focused on climate change, according to a study by a Danish-based think tank.

Europe has seen a sharp rise in the share of people who say that reducing immigration should be a top government priority, according to a study published Wednesday. Germany is topping the list.

At the same time, there was less desire to prioritize fighting climate change in the same countries, according to the survey commissioned by the Denmark-based Alliance of Democracies Foundation think tank.

Nearly half of German respondents put focus on migration

Since 2022, an increasing number of Europeans say their government should prioritize “reducing immigration,” rising from just under 20% to a quarter.

Meanwhile, concern about climate change was on the slide across the continent.

“In 2024, for the first time, reducing immigration is a greater priority for most Europeans than fighting climate change,” the report said.

“Nowhere is this reversal more striking than in Germany, which now leads the world with the highest share of people who want their government to focus on reducing immigration — topping all other priorities — and now nearly twice as high as fighting climate change,” the report read.

bamfic,

Eliminate all borders and let any humam on earth live anywhere on the planet they want to.

Benchamoneh,

I’ve got news for you guys, one of these things is going to radically affect the other.

Maybe the key to getting old people to care about climate change is to frame the mass displacement and migration that will occur as a direct result of it.

wondrous_strange,

That is pretty genius for sure but I think the issue is that these people think that once shit hits the fan they will be able to stop the desperate masses at their border by legalisation or whatever.

Buddahriffic,

Whatever is machine guns.

Reddfugee42,

Now show the fears by age and you’ll notice a recurring theme

TheControlled,

If you are starting to like a European, especially a German, make sure to ask them their opinions on Syrians and Turks. Their answers may surprise you!

They sure as fuck surprised me 😰

hessenjunge,

I, as a German, once asked Syrian and Turkish friends on their opinion on Jews. Their answer “The only thing Hitler did wrong was not finishing the job.” sure surprised me as did other really shitty experiences with non-friends from the same Region.

Do I hate Syrians and Turks now? No, because I’m not a fucking asshole that generalizes whole groups of people.

TheControlled, (edited )

My favorite thing about arguing with racist Europeans is that they are CONVINCED they aren’t racist, even though they literally just told me that Syrians are disgusting people who need to go home. Or this totally true story you just said.

kaffiene,

You have no basis to make a claim about the poster you’re respinding to. Not good faith

hessenjunge, (edited )

TheControlled@lemmy.world (Nomen est omen?) removed any doubt you might have had about his character with this last comment.

He’s also the type of person who hears a radio alert about a wrong way driver on the Autobahn and thinks “One? There are thousands (and all of them are racists)!”

RizzRustbolt,

Where are Germans afraid of migrating to?

KISSmyOSFeddit,

uncontrolled migration is largely caused by the effects of climate change on poor southern countries.

Amoxtli, (edited )

The Germans have a guaranteed welfare system for migrants. That is one major reason they are the preferred destination, and able-bodied people who go to another country just for welfare, are not good people, which coincidentally linked to increased crime. It seems to me, white folks try hard to convince people they are not racist. Then they live safely in their gated communities.

meekah, (edited )
@meekah@lemmy.world avatar

I’m pretty sure the increased crime among refugees here in germany is largely due to the laughably long wait times (months, if you’re lucky, on average 3 years) until their case gets reviewed, and them only gettting a tiny allowance (max. 182€ per month) and not being allowed to work during that time. Of course they end up committing crimes more often in such a situation, it’s not because they are bad people.

Amoxtli,

Gewalttaten nehmen drastisch zu: Zahl tatverdächtiger Ausländer springt nach oben - n-tv.de - n-tv.de/…/Zahl-tatverdaechtiger-Auslaender-spring…

meekah, (edited )
@meekah@lemmy.world avatar

Das kann viele Gründe haben. Rassismus in der Polizei ist nur einer davon. Heißt immer noch nicht, dass Flüchtlinge generell schlechte Menschen wären.

edit: hast du deinen Artikel eigentlich selbst gelesen?

Die überproportional vielen Ausländer unter den einer Straftat Beschuldigten erklären Soziologen und Kriminologen mit verschiedenen Ursachen. So sind die meisten Zuwanderer junge Männer, die in jeder Kriminalitätsstatistik auffällig stark vertreten sind. Hinzu kommen die bei Ausländern in Deutschland besonders oft schwierige soziale Lage und womöglich eigene Gewalterfahrungen im Herkunftsland oder während der Flucht nach Deutschland, die die Hemmschwelle zur Gewaltanwendung sinken ließen.

Zudem passierten viele Straftaten in Ausländerunterkünften und in deren Umfeld, wo einerseits die Unterbringungssituation extrem angespannt ist, andererseits Polizei und Wachschutz besonders präsent sind. Ferner haben Soziologen aufgezeigt, dass die Anzeigebereitschaft deutlich höher ist gegenüber Menschen, die als nicht zugehörig zur eigenen Gruppe wahrgenommen werden.

Das Bundeskriminalamt hält aber auch fest: Der Anteil der einer Straftat Beschuldigten unter allen Ausländern ist im vergangenen Jahr sogar gesunken Weil aber zugleich deutlich mehr Ausländer in Deutschland leben, ist die absolute Zahl ausländischer Straftäter dennoch gestiegen. Ein Zusammenhang zwischen Zuwanderung und Anzahl registrierter Straftaten ist damit offensichtlich.

Unfassbar guter Journalismus daraus so eine Überschrift herbeizudichten…

werefreeatlast,

I came to say this exactly. Also I just realized that I would love to move to a beautiful beach area in one of the Pacific facing tropical countries…places where poor people migrate away from… Does that make sense? That having money protects you from climate change? If basically a middle class person from the US can be rich in these poor countries, does that mean that they are less affected? You can afford fruits and vegetables if you have money? What if more rich assholes move into the area? Do they also get to still afford fresh bananas, and strawberries? Something tells me that they would quickly saturate the area like here in Seattle where every event seems to be packed to the brim with people. There’s just a packet room no matter what you choose to do. Hiking? Shoulder to shoulder. Swimming? Sardines in a can. Etc.

Wanderer,

I remember everyone was shitting on Poland but now everyone realises they were right all along. Everything they warned about happened. The people that denied it now have egg on their face.

cupcakezealot,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

germans being racist and xenophobic? shocker.

NatakuNox,
@NatakuNox@lemmy.world avatar

Welp, solve climate change and the migration crisis will go away. (along with stopping the exploitation of resources and interference in poor countries affairs.)

theacharnian,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Yet, in typical European fashion they would much much much rather interpret “reduce immigration” to mean “be mean to poor people here” than to mean “help stabilize developing nations and allow their economies to grow without squeezing them out using our country’s dominant economic position (so people don’t become economic migrants) and without support for bombing them every other decade (so people don’t become war refugees)”, which of course includes “address climate change (so people don’t become climate refugees)”.

No upstream thinking, just fascism fascism fascism.

Badeendje,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah … that is one way to look at it. But the experience of a lot of people out in the world is that migrants who lived their formative years in dog eat dog situations have a different way of dealing with the world… and that shit is also scary.

I have encountered kids as young as 12 with machetes on a chain around their neck under their shirt… like what the fu…

eatthecake,

The article does not address any of that, it’s your interpretation. I would like lower immigration into my country and that absolutely requires raising other countries up economically and preventing war and climate catastrophe. This was just a survey on what issues people are concerned about. It did not ask for solutions.

theacharnian,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Yea right, I’m sure AfD voters are all for raising up other countries.

Buddy, I’m Greek. I know first hand what German right wingers think of “irresponsible southerners”. So far up their righteous asses that expending economic resources for a European country that basically buys everything Germany produces was too hard for them to swallow. Don’t tell me they would not turn uber-protectionist the moment helping some brown people place comes up.

eatthecake,

Funny that you’re Greek. I recently had a conversation with the middle aged son of Greek migrants where he complained that the suburb he grew up in changed because of the later wave of migrants from elsewhere. No self awareness at all.

theacharnian,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

He integrated successfully.

conditional_soup,

Ameribro here. I’ve hosted a German exchange kid. She was really, really worried about immigration and “preserving German culture”. I pointed out to her that:

  • Culture is not a fixed thing, it’s always drifting a little bit, with or without immigrants. That’s why old people always complain about how different everything is.
  • Germany is actually younger than the US as a state by about a century, and contemporary Germany has really only existed since either the end of WW2 or the fall of the Soviet Union, depending on your view. (IMO, the collapse of East Germany is non-trivial. Her mom was an East German and described to us how they had an entirely separate culture with different groceries and everything and all that just vaporized into nothing when the wall fell, replaced with West German culture almost overnight). So, what does it really even mean to be defending German culture?
  • There’s always hardship when a new group of people arrive, but over time you usually end up with something that’s better than what you had before if you can learn to embrace it. US culture has, in spite of our issues with racism, tangibly benefitted from immigration over the centuries.

She wasn’t receptive to it. A lot of Europeans who hold anti-immigratiom views insist that it’s different for Europe when they have immigrants than it is for the US. I’ve yet to have one persuasively explain why that’s true and not just whiny exceptionalism.

SlopppyEngineer,

And Germany’s population, and with that the economy, would start shrinking without immigration. That’s what a fertility rate of 1.7 gets you. Things would go downhill fast enough.

realitista,

People would just start blaming the politicians for the rampant inflation and reduction in services that a scarcity of workers creates, and then vote in some fascist to “fix” it, first and foremost without allowing immigration. He will overthrow the media and judiciary and “fix” it by starting wars with the neighbors or doing ethnic cleansing at home.

barsoap,

All countries are going to go sub-replacement within a couple of decades. Aside from our constant inability to reform the pension system Germany is actually in quite a good spot: Those 1.7 are very stable, there’s no grand fluctuations, and no real reason to suspect it will suddenly crash. It’s a rate which, yes, leads to a degree of gerontocracy but it’s not catastrophic for the economy or pension system in the sense that improvements in productivity can make up for it.

I suspect it will rise again and then hover around 2 but for that to happen spooks like climate change related hesitancy will have to go (will happen with time, the earth can easily sustain the overall projected population levels) and the sources of immigration will have to dry up to a noticeable degree, which will also happen with time.

tmjaea,

Unfortunately we do have such narrow minded people in Germany. Even sadder they apply this mindset onto their kids

Wanderer,

Why do people need to act the way you think they do?

Why can a group of people not enjoy the way they live and want to keep it. Why are you right for saying a country should be forced to change?

conditional_soup, (edited )

I’m making an observation that any resistance to change is just wishful thinking. Even if you tried very hard to preserve a culture as it is, the causes and conditions that created that culture are also subject to change, and so the culture that arises from those causes and conditions will change as well. You’ve attached yourself to your idea of what your culture is (or should be), and decided that since you prefer that idea, then it’s acceptable to use force against other people to attain it.

I, personally, think that using the might of the government to enforce cultural values is not only crazy, but also stupid, deadly, and wasteful. Not everyone agrees with me, and that’s fine, you’re free to disagree and join the ranks of other whacko authoritarian countries that use violence to enforce cultural norms. But that’s not the kind of place I want to live, myself.

By the way, I noticed your username, Wanderer. That wouldn’t per chance be a reference to one of the names of Odin, would it? I know Hedonism’s quite popular among, well, certain groups, so it caught my attention.

Wanderer,

You seem to conflicting everything I had said and what the argument is about. No one is saying the government should force culture to remain static. That’s such a ridiculous premise and such a bad faith comment.

The issue is Germans enjoy their way of life and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Germans have seen the culture change with an influx of immigrants that do not reflect or adapt to German culture.

No one should dictate how a country should change but it is being forced to change by immigrants in a way that Germans do not want. If Germans want their culture, they do not want people coming over and bringing another culture that is replacing their own why is that bad? Why should an American try to control a foreign culture? Should have the right the live how they want and Germans culture and liberty differ to that if others and that is in jeopardy.

My name is based on the fact that I love experiencing other cultures, travelling, living in different places. Also that I Wandered over from Reddit so it’s a bit of a mixed comment. I’m not sure what you are alluding to. Can you be more clear?

conditional_soup, (edited )

Wanderer is one one of the names Odin uses while travelling the earth. Hedonism is also quite popular among Neo Nazis. It is an unfortunate truth that Nazis end up embracing and adopting things that other people also enjoy, so I was trying to ask about it politely.

I’m not saying that Americans should control your culture. All I’m saying is that it sounds like you want to use the force of government to steer your culture to be a certain way and to force compliance, and that’s a very dangerous thing indeed. Such movements, however well intentioned they may seem in the moment, often get co-opted by people with bad things in mind. Where do you draw the line on what a good German is? Someone who speaks German? Someone who eats German food? Someone who demonstrates a strong Christian faith? Maybe the government decides that good Germans don’t join labor unions, and if you question the government, well, that’s not being a good German, is it?

And how far should the government go to guarantee German culture? Does it stop with preventing just Slavs and Brown people from immigrating, or will you remove the ones who’ve immigrated already? What about the children who grew up there and are German in all but skin tone, should the government kick them out too, or do you separate them from their family? What about if people speak French in public, should they be arrested? (Yes, ofc, but that was a bad example) These kinds of things never end well, imo. I’m just trying to suggest that you don’t step on the rake, not control you, but don’t let me get in the way of a good time.

Wanderer,

Well I don’t know anything about that.

The fact the think having an immigration policy is enough to make someone a Neo Nazi is an incredibly low bar. It’s this sort of stupidity that is pushing people away from the left.

You are conflicting things. I don’t know where you are getting this all from. You must understand that German culture exists. You must understand than at least some Germans, if not most like their culture. This is about people that are not German with a culture that is not German coming to Germany and pushing out German culture. That’s what people have an issue with. If German culture changes no one has an issue with that, it’s the fact that change is being forced by outsiders that is the issue.

All your arguments are just ridiculous. I’m not talking about German government we are talking about culture. I honestly can’t understand why you are changing the narrative.

Again. On about different things. It’s like you live in 1984 and not the real world. Why do so many people pretend immigration doesn’t affect a country? Why live in that denial?

Halcyon, (edited )
@Halcyon@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

If something like a “German culture” ever existed, it never existed isolated and unchanged by other cultures. It’s a short-sighted illusion to think that. And that illusion is used to justify racist and xenophobic positions. Culture is defined by communication, by change and exchange, and thrived when borders were crossed peacefully.

conditional_soup, (edited )

On the question of Nazis, I must beg your pardon. I know an actual IRL Nazi (or perhaps more), because I knew them before they were Nazis. What I now know on hindsight to be bad faith questions about cultural preservation and immigration was my initial introduction to their new ideology.

As for my concerns about the government, I raise them because I am telling you that you’re asking for a one-sided coin. You want government policy to enforce a German culture without the authoritarianism. This is a nonsense thing that belongs in the realm of dragons and unicorns. I am speaking to you as a citizen of a country who has fucked up horribly many separate times and continues to do so, in the hopes that I might help prevent another horrible fuck up.

Wanderer,

Reducing immigration is not an authoritarian policy. Its crazy you think it is.

That’s a basic government policy.

conditional_soup,

On the question of Nazis, I must beg your pardon. I know an actual IRL Nazi (or perhaps more), because I knew them before they were Nazis. What I now know on hindsight to be bad faith questions about cultural preservation and immigration was my initial introduction to their new ideology.

On the question of immigration, I think what’s being asked for here isn’t just modest controls. You might say that, but the language about Germans feeling forced out of their own country would suggest to me that the order of the day is something a little more robust. I think I can be forgiven for that estimation. You can’t have it both ways, if you start giving the government extra power to start flexing on immigrants and non-conforming cultures, it’s eventually going to get used against you, too. You’re never so deep in the in-group as you might think.

barsoap,

You can’t have it both ways, if you start giving the government extra power to start flexing on immigrants and non-conforming cultures

The number of people going for cultural enforcement narratives is tiny compared to those being somewhat at unease at the speed of change, or concentration of change in particular areas – “Kreuzberg isn’t Germany” kind of thing no it was never Germany in the first place it’s always been Prussian and they’re not getting any less civilised with immigration, either, Berliners have always been rude. They’re fucking proud of being rude, it’s what passes as culture in that excuse for a city.

The AfD, sure, is talking about deporting Germans with foreign surnames – prompting wide-spread protests by everyone else. Conservatives may or may not get their underwear in a twist over pork-free options on the menu, the question they’re asking themselves is “will I be allowed to eat pork in the future”. There’s a feeling (and do I need to emphasise this: feeling) that their dietary habits are under attack by Muslims on the one flank, and the Green party and their “vegan dictatorship” on another. Meaning: The reaction is not tied to immigration as-such, it is simply a resistance to change, or advocacy. It’s perceived as political, and it arguably even is – Greens want their veggie day in canteens to lower overall meat consumption, while Muslims are saying “yo we don’t want to choose the vegetarian option every day can you folks eat something else but pork for once”. And it’s not like Rinderrouladen would be any worse without pork so that’s not an issue, at least not a culinary one.

The solution? Keep things simmering on low flame. Mind the rate of change, mind the reaction, don’t call people racist or climate deniers or whatnot for wanting their pork chops. Pork chops are good. Noone is going to take away pork chops. Pork chops will exist in the future. You don’t alleviate fears by getting out the rocket stove.

On the flipside you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone on any side of the political spectrum who argues that there should be pork Döner. In fact, it’s illegal to call a vertical pork skewer Döner: You can have veal or lamb, also poultry but then you have to explicitly mention the type of meat. Turks brought it here, everyone likes it (even Nazis!), Turks (by and large) don’t eat pork and not necessarily for religious reasons, Döner never contained pork, pork doesn’t belong in Döner just as Rostbratwurst isn’t made with goat meat.

The left has always been good at identifying structural issues, the right at hitting emotional chords. The left needs to get better at it, much better. People are worried about pork chops being under attack? Then, simultaneously with your veggie day initiative, say that certain traditional recipes should be protected, along the lines of “don’t let Nestle and Kraft tell you how to make your pork chops! Defend our culinary tradition!” and voila noone’s going to worry about pork chops getting outlawed. Simple as fucking that.

Amoxtli,

Culture is identity. Isn’t that obvious from looking at different people all over the world? It is true, there is a clash of cultures because everyone is proud of their identity. Nationalism is extremely powerful because it is human instinct to look upon kinship. Humans are social animals.

conditional_soup,

Sure, but you don’t need the force and violence of the state to enforce identity. It’s something people are quite capable of figuring out on their own without being at gunpoint.

Vub,

Preserving German culture and worrying about immigration - you had an AfD or nazi kid in your home.

Zacryon,

an AfD or nazi kid in your home

Mostly the same thing.

Vub,

Agreed.

eatthecake,

There’s always hardship when a new group of people arrive, but over time you usually end up with something that’s better than what you had before if you can learn to embrace it. US culture has, in spite of our issues with racism, tangibly benefitted from immigration over the centuries.

Now tell that to the native americans and see how well they take it.

conditional_soup,

“if we don’t do to other people what we did to native Americans, they’ll do to us what we did to the native Americans” is a reasonably common white supremacist talking point in the US, often presented adjacent to the great replacement.

kaffiene,

I don’t agree with your analysis. German culture clearly predates WW2. You’re conflating political entities with cultures and that’s not how any of this works

CHINESEBOTTROLL,

I mostly agree with your conclusion, but this is a very american (I.e. ignorant) response to her concern and i am not surprised she wasnt receptive. I think you underestimate the difference between a country like yours (which has always been a ‘salad bowl’ of cultures united by a commitment to liberalism) and mine (Germany, which is essentially a big tribe of tribes). This difference is even more stark if you look at a place like Denmark.

Here are a few of your points that gave me this impression:

Germany is actually younger than the US

Her concern is (to me) obviously independent of the state we happen to live under. Germaneness is not tied to a political entity. East Germans were German, Volga Germans are German and the German speaking people under the hre were German. (“German” Americans are not German btw.) This also makes your comment about

Her mom was an East German and described to us how they had an entirely separate culture

baffling (to me).

US culture has, … tangibly benefitted from immigration over the centuries.

The us is in many ways a much worse country than Germany (or almost any EU country). I don’t see why we should strive to emulate that model.

Zacryon,

The us is in many ways a much worse country than Germany (or almost any EU country). I don’t see why we should strive to emulate that model.

Besides the point. Immigration does not necessarily lead to “bad” legislation.

conditional_soup, (edited )

I think the question that really needs to be answered is how you plan on enforcing cultural normality. If, as you say, Germans have had a strong identify regardless of historical causes and conditions, it sounds like they’ve figured their culture out throughout the decades and centuries without someone pointing a gun at them over it. So then why should the force and violence of the government be necessary now, and to what extent? Are we just talking arresting brown people, or should we start arresting anyone who speaks something besides German in public, since they’re eroding the culture too?

I also wanted to respond to your remark about emulating the US. You don’t give rich old white men enough credit, they’ve managed to turn the country into a shambling wreck all while keeping everyone else locked out of governance. Maybe if we’d had those other voices, we wouldn’t have Donald Trump soliciting a billion dollar bribe to roll back all of our environmental protections.

barsoap,

Are we just talking arresting brown people, or should we start arresting anyone who speaks something besides German in public, since they’re eroding the culture too?

The fuck are you on about.

If you want to get a handle on this I suggest you start with concepts such as the assimilation capacity of a population as well as the possible speed of different kinds of natural cultural drift. If you want to avoid to avoid fuelling xenophobic ressentiment, what you need to make sure is that cultural drift caused by new arrivals is lower than what people accept, in that case people become more tolerant of that kind of shift, though of course that has a limit (and that’s fine). OTOH if you exceed it, people become less tolerant of shifts. In other words: Culture is a non-newtonian fluid. You create resistance by pushing too hard, if you go in gently there very well might be no resistance at all.

The erm force applied to that non-newtonian fluid is more or less number of arrivals multiplied by germane cultural difference multiplied by economical impact. When Germans flock to Sweden the Swedes worry about those “closed up and private” people, they’re somewhat taken aback by directness but secretly also somewhat glad that there’s someone actually complaining in public, not just in private. In the numbers that we’re talking about the Swedes aren’t worried in cultural terms, though there’s some gripes among some around housing prices in rural areas (not among the Swedes selling the houses, of course). Berliners are way more worried about Swabian arrivals.

And, really, let’s take Sweden as an example because they’ve been so… Swedish about the whole thing. Over decades their immigration worked just fine, they had a certain number and that number didn’t exceed the assimilation capacity, and then Swedes said “we are the best so of course we’ll take in more” and more came and assimilation failed – and the Swedes, being Swedes, never complained in public. It’s a high-trust environment, of course you trust others, even if government policy led to, one way or the other, segregation: Arrivals live in one place, native Swedes in another. Which then makes it even harder for the new arrivals to even acculturate much less assimilate, leading to more segregation, leading to more difficulties. At some point a dam broke and Swedes stopped complaining in private and complained in public – the backlash. Which led to people who were born in Sweden from perfectly assimilated parents suddenly found themselves on the outside of their own culture.

If, instead their politicians had started early saying “we need to actively work against that segregation, we need to change our public housing policy to make sure that neighbourhoods are mixed, and if that doesn’t suffice we need to limit the number of new arrivals” things would’ve went very differently – such a policy would have increased assimilation capacity. But that would’ve implied things such as Sweden not being perfect which is unthinkable to a Swede… at least to say aloud. Fucking swots.

conditional_soup,

What I’m on about is that there are plenty of people who would be quite happy to make it the police’s business to enforce cultural norms. Governments probably should do more to ensure plentiful housing, but assimilation is something that just happens over time. The US has had its own assimilation woes many, many, many times, it’s never been the happy melting pot we tell the world we are. We’ve had cultural enclaves and backlashes and all of that, but what always happens is that the assimilation takes hold within a generation or two, regardless of how the older generations might feel about it. It’s something people are quite capable of figuring out for themselves, without getting the cops involved.

Imo, people should be free to live and work where they please. Borders are the tools of tyrants, imo, but I don’t think we’re ready for that conversation.

barsoap,

What I’m on about is that there are plenty of people who would be quite happy to make it the police’s business to enforce cultural norms.

And it’s going to stay that way, or become worse, if migration is mismanaged.

Borders are the tools of tyrants, imo, but I don’t think we’re ready for that conversation.

There is no political border surrounding Franconia. Well maybe district borders, but those are fuzzy and approximate when it comes to culture. Noone is stopping anyone from crossing in or out. But if suddenly Bavarians, culturally Bavarian that is not just as in the state, started to mass-migrate into Franconia boy would you see backlash: Franconians are perfectly entitled to want to stay Franconian instead of becoming Bavarian. Different language, different traditions, different mentality, different majority religion, different Idendidäd.

conditional_soup,

Yes, I’m familiar with what you’re talking about about. We’ve had similar backlashes even within the US before. The thing is, it’s something people can, have, and do figure out without arresting anyone. People are smart and generally want to do what they believe to be the right thing and have a peaceful life, that’s broadly true across our species.

barsoap,

You’re the only one around here talking about arresting people. Maybe you share – culturally – more in common with some people that you dislike than you realise or you wouldn’t be preoccupied like that.

conditional_soup,

As I said elsewhere, I’m speaking as a citizen of a country who has repeatedly and severely fucked up, and continues to do so, in the hopes that I might save someone else the embarrassment of becoming a citizen of such a country. To wit, I must ask how you plan on enforcing immigration controls without law enforcement.

barsoap,

To wit, I must ask how you plan on enforcing immigration controls without law enforcement.

Oh no. You weren’t talking about border guards, you were talking about arresting people for having brown skin, or speaking different languages, for the “crime” of “eroding the culture”.

Heck I erode Italy’s culture every time I’m there simply by being convinced that pineapple on pizza is a perfectly valid thing to do. So far, none of them ever suggested arresting me.

conditional_soup,

Saying “I want cops but the difference is that this time they’re the good guys and don’t hurt anyone” doesn’t really move the needle for me. You can’t use the power of the state to use its force on people only it’s totally rainbows and sunshine this time.

barsoap,

Saying […]

Who said that? Who, here, aside from you, is talking about cops? Are those cops here in the room with us right now?

conditional_soup,

You, unless you want the law to enforce itself via magic. So, again, how are you enforcing these immigration rules without cops? Oh, wait, by calling cops “guards”? Call them the rainbow patrol for all I care, a cop by any other name is still a cop.

barsoap,

We do have borders, yes. We have an asylum process, we have an immigration process, we have a process for working permits, we have a naturalisation process, it’s all very well regulated and yes you can get through all of that without ever coming into contact with anyone in a uniform, short of a border guard.

What we don’t, and won’t, have is what you propose, and that is arresting American tourists on the subway for loudly speaking English. Or making it more difficult to open a Nigerian restaurant than a German one. That’s all your imagination, you’ve been told so multiple times by multiple people, and you still don’t seem to be able to understand it.

conditional_soup,

I want to be clear: I couldn’t give a crap about whether Americans get arrested. Nationalities are a construct made up by tyrants; people are people, and they deserve to not come to harm regardless of where they happened to be born.

So, it sounds like you’re proposing, what, no changes? What exactly is it, then, that people want to in order to deal with immigration, if not more cops and more aggressive laws?

barsoap,

There’s some room for better policies, integration courses etc but much of it is simply the east not being as experienced at integrating people combined with them still feeling fucked over by reunification.

In such a situation it then doesn’t exactly help to build a centre for 200 asylum seekers in a village with 300 inhabitants. Don’t recall the actual numbers but there’s been a couple of these “WTF would you ever do that” situations. Might even have been AfD fucks doing that they certainly aren’t above employing accelerationist tactics. Might’ve been inexperience and carelessness. Might’ve been a bureaucrat who has beef with the district administrator.

Oh: We need to re-work the history curricula. Make room for things like the Armenian genocide. Mandatory language development screening for kids and if necessary mandatory Kindergarten are already in place in a couple of states, it’s generally a good idea not just for immigrant kids, you don’t want kids to start primary school at a disadvantage. Muslims definitely should continue the process of naturalising Islam, that is, continue the move away from source-country Islams (plural) towards a domestic one. Can’t find English articles about the discussion/process within Germany right now but this might be of interest. Bit out of date it’s been taking up speed but it’s giving an overview.

raspberriesareyummy,

I should get my emigration plans ready, I hate the German boomer racism and how it infected the younger population. Fuck racists, no matter how they label themselves.

alyth,

I’m in the same boat, almost left in 2022 but didn’t go through with it. Time will tell if I made the right call.

raspberriesareyummy,

At least I am all good with living in other countries - done 4 1/2 years in one and 1 year in another and only came back for work contractual reasons. That changed - and it’s good to know the option is not just hypothetical :)

maegul,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Anyone have an understanding of how much migration Germany has lately? Is this all still a hang over from the Syrian refugee intake under Merkel? Is Germany a favoured destination generally within Europe? Or are Germans just “sensitive” about darker coloured people (which would be a bit odd given the Turkish migration that occurred after the war, unless that never went well either)?

DarkThoughts,

Ukrainian refugees are causing kinda the same backlash at the moment.

maegul,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Ah right. Obvious guess I should have made.

PlexSheep,

I’m a German and I don’t really notice much of it. The region I’m in already has quite a lot of people that aren’t “traditionally German” and behave differently and speak languages other than German in public, it can be a little weird or unsettling sometimes, but many of them have good reasons sto stay here and immigration benefits society in the end I believe, also what is normal anyways. Maybe I just don’t worry about it as many others in our nation apperently do?

maegul, (edited )
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Maybe I just don’t worry about it as many others in our nation apperently do?

Well the polls would suggest that.

it can be a little weird or unsettling sometimes

I find this striking. Some places just aren’t used to major migration events, and from this it seems to be true for Germany and even you however accepting you are. And not to be an immigration absolutist about it, but Europe might benefit from realising how common migration is elsewhere in the world.

mryessir,

In some districts immigration rate is at 60%.

One has to experience certain interactions and opinions on the streets. I know we need migration and there has been plenty of people perfectly assimilating but we are struggling with the integration part currently.

I sincerly think most of the issues I observe are due to German/European Rap Music which is nowadays mainstream and way out of line. Teenagers across the board adapt arabic phrases from said music and butchering the language. Let alone adapt the text literally.

Teachers and people working at the kindergarten I know of describe the migration rate at almost 90%. And the majority of parents do not show willingness to educate+integrate, they say. But I don’t know of any numbers!!

Darkonion,

It’s literally the same issue. Changing climate is going to force mass migrations. Don’t like brown people? Maybe do everything you can to make sure their countries of origin remain liveable and prosperous. I’m guessing many would rather that then coming to some xenophobic land of full of a-holes in order to carve out some semblance of a future for their families.

ichbinjasokreativ,

I’m in the weird position of wanting both - closed borders and a reversal of climate change, so the next election is going to be interesting for me. They seem to be mutually exclusive in party programs

DdCno1,

It's not interesting, it's simple: Don't vote for fascists, no matter what. This means AfD and, if by that point, Conservatives are willing to form a coalition with them (I hope not, but Merz scares me), those are impossible to vote for by any decent human being as well.

avidamoeba,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

The AfD > 20% 😷

https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/d3d52164-24f6-4ba7-8b96-ca09621bbe9a.png

PlexSheep,

We’ll seem this is only predictions. They are not an election and much can happen.

avidamoeba,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

The only sustainable solution to migration is reducing the reasons to migrate. Tackling climate change would reduce perhaps the biggest reason for migration we’re ever gonna see. So if you have to choose between curbing climate change without reducing migration, and curbing migration without reducing climate change, you should probably go with the former. The latter is only going to reduce migration temporarily and accelerate it long term. If they can even reduce migration in the near term.

Lileath,
@Lileath@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

NPD or “die Heimat” would work for you, right? Since you seem like you would like the slogan “Deutschland den Deutschen”.

PlexSheep,

Don’t ask people to vote for Nazis, not even ironically.

Wanderer,

Climate change is changing fast with the easy things like solar and battery explosion. The green parties are going to lean into this and act like they caused it, when really they won’t change anything. The right won’t be able to stop it. Neither party will make much of a difference on this IMO.

The current parties have done nothing on immigration, they have not listen to what the population wants. Because of that they need to lose votes and someone that listens to the people need to be voted in.

demonsword,
@demonsword@lemmy.world avatar

I’m in the weird position of wanting both - closed borders and a reversal of climate change

then I guess the weird epiteth of “enlightened idiot” fully applies to you

PlexSheep,

I mean, wanting regulations for immigration is a valid political opinion, no? It’s not something that is inherently extreme right. It’s just hard to find a party catering to both because of the modern Kulturkampf.

demonsword,
@demonsword@lemmy.world avatar

Most people aren’t migrating of their own volition but fleeing war and famine. People I’ve seen advocating for “regulations for immigration” would rather have those people dying of hunger or exposure at their borders instead of letting them in.

PlexSheep,

Yeah, those people exist. I’m not one of them, but I can still see how someone would want their country to be a little less open about immigration. It can be comforting if people are a bit more like you, I guess.

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