Would you be in favour of assisted dying being introduced for terminally ill patients in your country?

With the discussion of whether assisted dying should be allowed in Scotland befing brought up again, I was wondering what other people thought of the topic.

Do you think people should be allowed to choose when to end their own life?

What laws need to be put into place to prevent abuses in the system?

How do we account for people changing their mind or mental decline causing people to no longer be able to consent to a procedure they previously requested?

BonesOfTheMoon,

We have that in Canada. I think dying with dignity is important and why suffer in agony when you can plan it out if you’re terminally ill?

But it made Canada show how poor its social supports are for this guy: …citynews.ca/…/ontario-man-applying-for-medically…

When this news broke everyone came out of the woodwork to help him and he is no longer applying for MAID.

My coworker’s husband has end stage COPD and has been in and out of hospital a lot lately. She says she felt pushed for him to accept MAID, but they didn’t and he is doing somewhat better now. It’s temporary obviously but I also understand not wanting to lose him. There have been other stories where some people feel the decision was made irresponsibly, this is a good article about it: www.newyorker.com/magazine/…/the-death-treatment

I don’t know what I think about MAID for mental health conditions. Not that I don’t think they are debilitating, but I wonder how sound of mind someone who is suffering so much is in. I really don’t know the answer to that.

Kalcifer,
@Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works avatar

Canada currently has assisted dying (referred to as MAID — Medical Assistance In Dying). The issue that I see with it, in Canada, is that it is a conflict of interest; Canada has public healthcare, so all patients are seen as a net drain on the system. Because of this, It is in the government’s best interest to reduce the cost of healthcare by lessening the number of patients in hospitals. In my view, it is, therefore, in the Canadian government’s best interest to encourage assisted dying over treatment to the absolute limits of what is ethically or legally allowed.

Yerbouti,

It’s actually really really hard to have access MAID. Multiple doctors needs to give consent and they have no financial interest to do so. I’ve read an article about this and even if it was easier to access MAID, the overall savings would be negligible.

Kalcifer,
@Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works avatar

I wasn’t making a claim regarding how easy or difficult it is to get MAID; I was only stating that it is a conflict of interest for a public healthcare system to provide it.

Geek_King,

It bothers me that in the U.S., we extend that courtesy to pets who are suffering from terminal issues. But we expect loved ones to hang on and suffer for no real reason other then the vague notion that the imaginary sky man would disapprove.

My grandma passed away 2 months shy of her 101st birthday. I visited her a few weeks before she passed, she was gaunt, skeletal, couldn’t see us and was reacting to hallucination caused by their body slowly shutting down. She didn’t even know my Mom and I were even there, and when we told her her daughter was there to see her, she said “No, I don’t believe it” while staring blanking into the corner of the room. She wasn’t suffering from dementia, it was cancer that came back which was killing her. What reason would we not allow a loved pet to suffer though that, but a blood relative, hell yeah, let them lay and suffer for weeks, months, years.

I don’t have any grand ideas on how to prevent abuse, I just think it’s humane to not let a thinking being suffer needlessly.

cm0002,

It’s the same for the young end of the spectrum, I’ve seen lots of kids and adults who were born with a bad disability to be permanently wheelchair bound unable to care for themselves or even communicate. But “they were breathing on their own when they came out, so we can’t do anything about it now” because sky daddie might be mad

And then ofc the whole stress added onto the parents who will have to primarily care for the child for the rest. Of. Their. Lives.

MisshapenDeviate,
@MisshapenDeviate@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I think a legitimate concern for that one is what do you define as a disability worth terminating the baby’s life for. Some would likely abuse it for eugenics.

snooggums,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

Not being able to live without any assistance and no hope of improving seems like a reasonable criteria. In fact, with that criteria they can remove the assistance and let the child (or adults) suffocate and die right now, but they can’t use drugs to ease the suffering and speed up the process or it is ‘murder’.

There are many things we can put in place to mitigate the concerns about eugenics, like requiring two doctor’s to agree that it is appropriate in addition to consent of family/guardians/other legally responsible persons.

SpaceNoodle,

None of us could live without any assistance.

snooggums,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

With minimal reading comprehension you could have inferred that the assistance in the example was breathing for the person since they would suffocate without the assistance.

Im the hopes of avoiding a similar stupid post, that does not mean I think anyone who need needs a machine should die. That was an example of a situation where doctors can currently let a patient die through ‘inaction’ by removing the assistance that is taking care of vital functions like breathing. Think brain dead people or someone whose cancer is so bad that they refuse care that could keep them alive, but have no option to end the suffering faster.

cm0002,

Good investment and R&D for better early pregnancy testing would be a good start, if we can accurately predict disabilities early enough for an abortion it would head off a lot of issues later on

But for post birth disabilities, yea, but it’s hard to even have that conversation because many would just shut the conversation down entirely with “life is life” or some BS like that

DessertStorms,
DessertStorms avatar

if we can accurately predict disabilities early enough for an abortion it would head off a lot of issues later on

That literally already is eugenics.
And the fact that you consider people advocating that disabled lives have just as much value as abled lives as "BS" tells me you really don't care, because even if you won't admit it, you are a eugenicist.

JimmyBigSausage,

Agreed!

cm0002,

^ see, found one already lmao

Yea no, to cross the line into eugenics the state or other authority needs to mandate that X or Y disabilities need to be aborted even over the objections of the parents

Simply giving the parents and their doctors the tools and legalities to detect and come to their own decisions, is not

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

If life is life… why do I have to pay a monthly tribute to a labded lord? I thought my life is sacred!

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

We all know things won’t get better anytime soon.

Hope yall find what peace you can in this life.

MxRemy, (edited )

I was in favor of this until I started reading Marta Russell. She lays out the history of using the concept of assisted dying to do things like get rid of people with disabilities, increase profits for hospitals, decrease funding for home nurses, convince people who are no longer productive that they shouldn’t live anymore, etc etc. It seems like a good idea on paper, because bodily autonomy and stuff, but capitalist ghouls coerce people into it.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@fedia.io avatar

Anything can be corrupted by capitalist ghouls. I wouldn’t let that fear stop me from doing the right thing. People shouldn’t be forced to suffer, and should be allowed to choose when to die.

DessertStorms,
DessertStorms avatar

Anything can be corrupted by capitalist ghouls.
People shouldn’t be forced to suffer

Can you really not see that capitalist "ghouls" (they're just people) have already corrupted society enough, that they are the very reason people are suffering in the first place, and that making those who are suffering kill themselves off the "reasonable" solution, instead of ending the suffering enforced on them by capitalists, is very actively playing along with said capitalists, rather than the ones whose suffering you claim to be concerned with?

WookieMonster,
@WookieMonster@midwest.social avatar

Cause nobody ever died of slowly and painfully of cancer except that capitalist forced it on them? Come on. Capitalism sucks a lot, but it’s not the source of ALL problems.

Hjalamanger,
@Hjalamanger@feddit.nu avatar

May I ask were you live? I live in Sweden and would personally trust our medical system not to abuse such tools but depending on were you are I do understand that you might be worried.

Anyways I don’t really see it as a problem with assisted death but with the system using it

snooggums,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

Guess everyone should suffer because there is the possibility of abuse that we already know about and could take steps to avoid.

zephorah,

In Oregon, you have to be able to administer it to yourself. It’s not something someone else does to you.

Some people get it as an insurance policy of sorts. So it’s an option during end of life care, but not necessarily one they take.

I am curious about what happens with the med if left unused. Like, do people tuck it away like spare antibiotic eye drops?

corsicanguppy,

It’s done with a medico in attendance, who then takes the apparatus and spare media on leaving.

PerogiBoi,
@PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

Then you have let the capitalists win. They do not want people to have autonomy over their bodies because they still pay tax and consume products.

A big proponent of capitalist propaganda is to induce the fear of the government. I can assure you that governments are so large and so hampered by rules that this very creative scenario where the government forces everyone to die is hilariously out of the realms of reality.

Governments exist off of taxes. To kill their own tax base for no reason goes against their whole modus operandi. Just think about the positions that are being dispensed to you and by whom and why they might want you to receive a message like this next time.

tobogganablaze,

We already have it in Switzerland.

I’m all for it. I actually had to promise my mum to off her in case she ever get’s dementia. (She had to care for her own mother with dementia for almost a decade, to the point where everyone in the family was just glad when she finally died).

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@fedia.io avatar

Get something on paper. I have no idea what the laws are like in Switzerland, but a verbal promise may not be enough.

tobogganablaze,

She already made sort of will for the case when she’s mentally impaired which would give me power over medical decisions (not quite sure what all the proper english terms here are).

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@fedia.io avatar

Okay, good. I hope you never have to use it, friend!

tobogganablaze, (edited )

Yup. On the other side I have a slight feeling she’s actively trying to spare me from it. She’s 60 now and just picked up climbing and caving … and not the “guided tourist” stuff. I think she’s now looking into diving …

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@fedia.io avatar

That’s awesome! Glad to hear it!

corsicanguppy,

promise my mum to off her in case she ever [gets] dementia

My dad has what we call a ‘DNR’ order after his time as an EMT prolonging the life of some elderly people who didn’t. He also now has a ‘living will’ after an affliction that will kill him in the next decade and is not feasibly preventable. Before his brain is too far gone from oxygen deprivation and he can’t be judged fit to make the call, he’s got provisions and criteria to end his life. He still had to meet with a psyche to ensure it’s what he wanted, a blessing since a former EMT who’s worked on the Water has more than enough information and no need to ask permission.

WookieMonster,
@WookieMonster@midwest.social avatar

I have no idea about Switzerland, but a lot of these death with dignity laws do not include dementia and the like. You may want to check out what the legal options and realities are.

I’ve watched both of my grandmas head down this same road, preparing for my mom to do the same. It’s absolutely terrifying and I was seriously looking at moving somewhere that would give me the option, only to find it doesn’t exist currently in my country (US).

bloodfart,

No.

I used to think yes but canadas maid (I should have known by the abbreviation) program has been a crazy disaster and completely changed my mind.

bionicjoey,

It was introduced in my country (Canada) and immediately the government started talking about expanding access to it for people with intellectual disabilities; and worse yet, people with treatable conditions where the treatment is just very expensive. That freaks me out quite a bit.

I think it’s good for it to be available but there need to be significant guardrails on its availability. My cousin and his wife recently used it for her father, and based on my understanding of his situation, I think it was probably a lot better than letting him die slowly.

Redredme,

Say, didnt you guys hear about that one party which was hugely popular in germany once? The guy in charge was called “the boss” and they had a very specific greet.

They too extended it to people with disabilities.

I dunno… But it seems somewhat relevant…

PerogiBoi,
@PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

Brain dead take. The Nazis also breathed air so you better start holding your breath.

corsicanguppy,

you guys hear about that one party which was hugely popular in germany

Evil people can accidentally do humane things under completely evil reasons. The question is always what the victim actually wants.

But I completely respect your ability to make this false comparison and then loudly express concern for it, as reminding us how evil can even coerce people into a bad decision for purely inhumane reasons of cost around the alternatives is a way we can work to avoid that kind of mis-use of this process. We need to be reminded every moment about it.

Redredme,

The moment the state decides if your life is valuable enough or not is the moment we are talking about fascism. It is that simple.

And yes, I’m all for assisted death. But the keyword is assisted. And if you yourself cannot decide if you want to be assisted it just can’t happen.

A politician can not decide for you if you deserve to live or not. A life canot be valued. And that was what was implied.

zephorah,

Some terminal illnesses, I think I’d prefer this route. ALS, for example. No fucking way am I doing that.

If it’s not a play on eugenics, just giving the terminal choices in how they go out, I don’t see the problem.

Perhapsjustsniffit, (edited )

Disabled Canadian here. Spinal cord injury. I think assisted death is necessary in any society and I am glad we have it. That’s said… That some are choosing death over starvation or homelessness due to disability is not ok. If we give the option for assisted death we also need the support structure to avoid such unfortunately necessary choices for some. I have 3 young kids. I’m fully disabled now at almost 50. I went from a salary when working of almost 100,000/year to $12, 440.61 on disability. Even if I could find work that would make exceptions for my disability I could only earn $6000/year before I would lose my disability altogether and have to work full-time. $6000. Try live for a year on that, but that’s what the feds say justifies full time employment for someone like me. $12,000/ year is no walk in the park but half that would be devastating.

If my major purchases (home etc)were not paid off we would be homeless for certain. A single grocery bill for us for two weeks is well over $300 and we grow all our own vegetables, chickens and eggs out of necessity. If we had a mortgage and car payment we would be seriously considering one less mouth. We are lucky because we live rurally and have some stability in owning our home otherwise MAID would be a consideration. Not because I don’t want to live but because I couldn’t afford to.

sun_is_ra,

I Would be in favor of assisted dying being introduced for anyone who need it.

No one should be forced to live against their will.

Also its better to let a person die peacefully than having them die in gruesome ways (jumping in front of a car/train, jumping from a building, hanging themselves with family and loved ones having to see them in this state, etc …

DessertStorms,
DessertStorms avatar

Also its better to let a person die peacefully than having them die in gruesome ways

you know what would be even better? Creating a society where millions of people aren't suffering to the point where they see no other option in the first place.

sun_is_ra,

The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. you could create the society and still give people freedom to decide when to end their lives.

PerogiBoi,
@PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

What a great idea! Society should just simply not have any disease! That way there will be no suffering!

Why hasn’t anyone else thought of that???

PerogiBoi, (edited )
@PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

We humanely end the suffering of our old cat or dog. Heavens forbid we let grandma go out peacefully. Sorry gramma ya gotta slowly drown in your own blood because I’m afraid of theoretical scenarios in which the government decides to kill everyone.

dragontangram88,
@dragontangram88@lemmy.world avatar

No. It should never be legal. You will see an increase in people trying to get power of attorney over their spouse, or relative, so that they can advocate for assisted death, when that might not be what the patient actually wants. I don’t want to see abusive people having the power to legally murder other people.

Cris_Color,
@Cris_Color@lemmy.world avatar

Thats not a take on the subject I’d seen before. Thanks for sharing your thoughts

HarbingerOfTomb,

1000% yes

letsgo,

No, for several reasons.

Death is final. There is no coming back from it.

A cure, or at least an effective treatment, might be just around the corner. HIV used to be a death sentence; it isn’t any more (and from what I understand, carriers can now have unprotected sex without passing it on). I wonder how much medical research into treating HIV wouldn’t have been possible without sufferers to try out potential treatments. Maybe it would still be a death sentence today if assisted suicide had allowed people to escape it.

There is no way to be 100% certain someone isn’t being pressured to die. If they answer all the questions correctly, that only shows they know the right answers; it doesn’t show they are being truthful.

Justifying assisted suicide on the basis of the worst cases is not sufficient. There will always be worst cases. Let’s say we define a limited set of the worst cases; those are now effectively solved and everything else jumps up a level. There is now a new set of worst cases. How long before someone catching the common cold gets put to death? You may say this is ridiculous but the worst case justification means that the cold WILL eventually rise to the top, and there WILL be arguments like “giving evolution a helping hand”, or “for the benefit of the species”, and as we will by then be routinely applying AS there’ll only be a low bar to jump.

If palliative care isn’t producing sufficient quality of life, we can put people into a medically induced coma (IANAD so there may be good reasons we can’t, but idk). There they stay until (a) a cure or treatment is available, or (b) they die naturally anyway.

Obviously this needs sensible public healthcare in place. Where medical treatment is expensive and life is cheap, this won’t work. I’m in the UK where healthcare is provided by the state and we have the luxury of considering life to be priceless.

For those who say we euthanise animals - well society in general doesn’t want to pay for their healthcare and doesn’t consider their lives to be infinitely precious. Also there is the question of how much they understand what is happening to them; maybe the terror of being hooked up to a machine would make their QOL effectively non-existent anyway.

Croquette,

Any person should have the choice to die at the moment they want with dignity.

If you’ve lived 40 years of a terrible life and want out, you should be able to.

The legislative side of this issue would be a mess, but the work has to start now.

Illuminostro,

The reason it’s not legal is because dead peasants don’t increase profits or pay taxes.

Croquette,

I didn’t write it in my post, but that’s a 100% correct. Keep the machine running.

rowinxavier,

The bioethicists have ready worked out the kinks of assisted suicide laws and I would defer to them. You don’t offer it to people who cannot make the decision, you make sure people are fit to make the decision before they become too impaired, and you have plenty of checks for elder abuse, family pressure, and so on. Ultimately right now I can choose to end my life and that knowledge has made bearing some really painful medical things much easier.

We can all do things that make us less safe. We can drive, we can eat unhealthy food, we can drink alcohol, we can smoke, we can have unprotected sex, we can go base jumping, and so on. There is a concept called Dignity of Risk, meaning that while we have a duty of care, a responsibility to protect someone, we also have to respect that person enough to let them make choices, including choices we disagree with. If we don’t have this then we treat people as less than human and in the process we are stopping them living the life they want.

If we are going to say life choices should be in your hands then I think death choices should be too.

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