r/The_Donald now on Lemmy (edit: not anymore)

It was banned on Reddit because it is racist, hatefull and spread Conspiracies.

In my new community I expect the exclution of racist communities. It is easy now with defederation. Nazis can do whatever they want on their instances, but the instances I want to be part of should not amplify their shit and flush it into our timelines.

The instance-admin of !thedonald did not reply to my message. Big instances seem not to defederate with them.

The new TD may not be a success, the point is not to give Nazis a platform like it is happening now. Fans of TD are racists.

Where are the instances that show face against racism?

edit: to contact the admins: @donut @TheDude @smorks

edit2: @TheDude deleted the community :)

Ado,

Defederating from an entire instance for one community seems a bit overblown tbh. Blocking would prob be effective enough. That said, beehaw will likely be most proactive in removing td nonsense from its feed

HobbitFoot,

I don't think it is. R/The_Donald was a cancer on Reddit, spreading around and harming other communities. If an instance is willing to tolerate a community like that, I don't see the value of anything else in that instance.

Ado,

Welp, spin up an instance and block everything you dislike

june,

when i was a christian there was this story that would be told that went something like this:

"one day a kid was caught by their parent doing something they knew they weren't supposed to do. it was just a small thing with no real consequences, but it was against the rules of the house and therefore the kid was being disobedient. when the parent confronted the kid about the behavior the kid argued that it was harmless and that it was ok. the parent, seeing an opportunity to teach the kid a lesson, said 'ok' and left. several hours later the parent called the kid into the kitchen where they'd made brownies. the parent offered the kid a brownie who readily accepted. as the kid reached for a brownie the parent stopped them and said 'oh, but first you should know, theres a small piece of cat poop in there, but it's ok, it's just a small piece and i put it in that corner over there'. the kid reeled in disgust and said they didn't want the brownies anymore. 'why?' the parent inquired, 'it's just a small piece and won't hurt anyone as long as they stay away from that small corner'. the kid, then realized the importance of obedience in every way."

total bullshit story, but like all christian bullshit there's a kernel of truth in there. one small nazi ruins the whole batch of brownies.

GarbageShootAlt2,

I promise you lemmygrad will be faster because they don’t play with kid gloves when it comes to “respectable” reactionaries.

eric5949,

If they want that community on their instance I don't want to interact with their instance. I guess at this point I should just spin up my own instance and federate via whitelist.

bob,

it's really easy, I spun up my own instance in a morning. Ok, I am a sysadmin and programmer, but it really wasn't very difficult and didn't require much beyond creating a VPS and DNS entry along with basic abilities at the command line to use the ansible playbook.

Kichae,

Leave it to Redditors to be OK with everything turning into a Nazi bar.

Lols,

a better analogy is dropping the whole town the nazi bar is in

Ado,

Yes, the vast universe of Lemmy is like a fucking bar lmao. Great analogy

Jcb2016,
Jcb2016 avatar

No it's not that. Lots of us never interacted with that sub. Just block them no need to defederate a while instance

HobbitFoot,

If the instance won't kill the sub, the members of the sub will take over that instance.

I'm seeing some people testing the waters of some subs to see what they can get away with.

guyman,

Users need the ability to block entire instances. Problem solved.

FlaxPicker,

so because the donald was on reddit, the entire reddit community was taken over?

GarbageShootAlt2,

It had a massive impact on the “culture” of the website and would have kept spreading quite effectively if the admins weren’t pressured to quarantine it for PR reasons.

DLSchichtl,

Yes. Do you not remember that? They took over the front page for months through vote manipulation and pinned post abuse. So many of reddits policies and procedures were created BECAUSE of the_dickbag. And when they let the sub reach critical mass before soft banning it, it's implosion sent hate exploding through subreddits. Now it's soaked with rot and can't be saved. Stamp this shit out at its roots here and now, or the fediverse will suffer the same.

catshit_dogfart,

At the height of it, yes. It filled up the front page every single day and made the site absolutely reek.

It’s what made me stop browsing /r/all, drop off most default subs, and stick to only my subscribed subs. Brigading and spamming is the whole point.

finder585,

Dude, it is one community with a whopping 9 subscribers and every single post is sitting at negative.

Y'all need to calm down.

Lupus108,

Have you read the linked story? Because it stands exactly counter to what you are saying.

Auzy,

The problem isn't just that community, it's the people who follow. They're not the kind of people we should try to attract here.

They're probably the same people who were active in fatpeoplehate and other malicious subs too, and it's better not to wait for that to happen. If it doesn't get handled now, their toxicity will likely spill over into other communities

iAmTheTot,
iAmTheTot avatar

It's not overblown. It's sending a message to the admins of that instance.

Blocking the community itself is the smallest Band-Aid in the world. The kinds of users who join that instance for that community aren't going to be quarantined to just that community.

guyman,

Users can block individuals and communities, but not instances. I think if we give users the power to block instances, then everyone has the tools they need to ignore the content they don't want to see. Blocking users is nice because they don't realize their being blocked and are less likely to get around it. It also has the added benefit of only blocking them for you, so nobody gets control over what others see.

Lols,

its entirely overblown, the smallest band-aid in the the world is entirely appropriate for one user shitposting

Tsinc,
@Tsinc@feddit.de avatar

sh.itjust.works hosts it. They should kick them out.

Alexmitter,
Alexmitter avatar

As soon as they brake rules they absolutely should be banned.

guyman,

Nah. Users need to ability to block entire instances. It's crazy this is overlooked.

tookmyname,

I don’t think it’s overlooked. It’s probably just not been implemented yet.

minorsecond,

You can on kbin, but I don’t know how to on lemmy yet.

ewe,

Yeah, defederation isn't an answer to this, or if it is, it's an absolute last resort. First they have to do something wrong, then the instance should ban them, if they fail to act and the community is doing something wrong, then you talk about defederating.

Felemuso,

Hm, is it possible the community was already kicked by the instance? I don't find it.

rist097,

Well I think that is strength of Lemmy, everyone can have space on their own without anyone shutting them down, of course if crimes are commited this is a question for law authorities. If you don't want to see their content, you can either defederate or block their community.

I really don't understand this thinking that you cannot tolerate people with different opinion than yours to exist on the internet. Again if they break any laws, you can report it to authorities.

GarbageShootAlt2,

Wild how the government can dictate what is bannable but users can’t

ThePrideOfGoffamCity,

Everybody likes to preach tolerance to all, until they run into somebody who’s actually different from them

uptoke,

The Paradox of Tolerance as defined by Karl Popper in The Open Society and Its Enemies:

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

Coeus,

Is the community gone now?

Tsinc,
@Tsinc@feddit.de avatar

no, https://sh.itjust.works/c/thedonald

ThesePaycheckAvenging,

90% posts from the same account. Hardly a community.

Coeus,

If it gets too bad I'll make sure to block it from my instance.

dreadedchalupacabra,

"Leftwingtears" "Why do people keep banning me, this is only equal discourse!"

I can't with these people.

HobbitFoot,

Most communities on Lemmy are 90% posts from the same account.

UrbenLegend,

Definitely better to just block the community in other instances instead of total defederation. Admins can do so pretty easily. I know beehaw is usually pretty proactive about this kind of stuff.

And yeah…fuck Donald Trump. He’s fucked up the US so hard and has put our country into such a mess. I hope they nail his ass straight to jail.

iAmTheTot,
iAmTheTot avatar

I support defederatiom personally because it sends a stronger message from the community. Blocking the community is "I don't want to see this." Defederating is "we don't want to see this."

guyman,

Unfortunately, users don't have the option to block entire instances. We need to rely on our moderating overlords to do it for us.

HerrLewakaas,

It would be pretty easy to filter content from specific instances in a Lemmy app without Lemmy explicitly supporting it on the server side. I'm working on an Android app right now, as soon as all the basic stuff is done I'll implement it.

UrbenLegend,

Yeah I guess it does put pressure on instance admins to remove the offending community from their instance. I am just not sure if we want to cross that line into penalizing everybody on an instance for simply being near a bad community though. I also think doing this kind of proactive censorship also forces these people into deeper echo chambers as they get more and more isolated.

iAmTheTot,
iAmTheTot avatar

If the admins are okay with running a Nazi bar, I don't want to associate with anyone in that Nazi bar.

DLSchichtl,

Yeah I guess it does put pressure on instance admins to remove the offending community from their instance.

Yup. And that's the point. Clean up your shit, or get cut off.

I am just not sure if we want to cross that line into penalizing everybody on an instance for simply being near a bad community though.

Yes, we do. We need to skip gayly over that line with laughter and mirth. It needs to be common decency to stamp that shit out at the roots. If a nazi starts showing up at parties, do NOT stay quiet about it. That's how these hate groups worm their way in. Acceptance through ambivalence is absolutely a thing and they bank on it every time. "Oh, it's just a nazi. Ignore him." NO. Shout that fucker out of your community. Don't let them get comfortable. Let them know that their shit will NOT be tolerated.

I also think doing this kind of proactive censorship also forces these people into deeper echo chambers as they get more and more isolated.

Good. Keeps them isolated and out of vulnerable youths ears. Let them echo til their little hearts explode. They aren't welcome in decent society.

UrbenLegend,

While I understand where the sentiment is coming from and hate Trump with the passion of a thousand suns, I have never once found that to be a way forward in real life. It leads to the kind of divisive politics that we see in America today, where people draw these hardcore lines that divide us and as a result we don’t actually talk and figure out the root cause of our issues and instead seem content on screaming our side is better, our side is right.

Fascism is a disgusting thing, but there’s a socioeconomic reason why people in the US are getting radicalized towards it and we aren’t going to figure that out if we’re all busy generalizing that group as disgusting people. Just my two cents.

minorsecond,

I agree. It may help send a message that the community isn’t tolerated, hopefully getting it removed.

DLSchichtl,

They lose their shit at the thought of federating with Facebook, but when it comes to nazis they pump the brakes. Shows peoples true colors.

No tolerance for intolerance, lest tolerance be destroyed completely. No quarter for hate.

WorkIsSlow,

Facebook attempts to join- "We must stop this to prevent corporate power and growth." Bigots join- "Let's hear them out."

niktemadur,
niktemadur avatar

Let's hear them out

...I mean... they might have something to say that we haven't heard and been repulsed by a thousand times already!

rbhfd,

Difference between instances (Facebook) and communities (DT). Latter is easily blocked by users themselves, former might threaten the longevity of the fediverse.

Not saying I agree with that, but comparing the two is not fair.

DLSchichtl,

You think becoming infested with hate speech isn't going to threaten the fediverse? Sure, we can all individually block the hate, but a new, clueless user who joins for the first time is going to see that hateful rhetoric and everyone else ignoring it. That is DANGEROUSLY close to acceptance.

maegul,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

So, from what I’ve gathered, many consider the broad lesson learnt from various defederation dramas over on mastodon is that making a genuine attempt to voice concern with the instance admins prior to defederation is almost always the better way to go. It avoids drama and inconvenience while promoting a better ecosystem of cooperation between instance admins and their users.

Obviously at some point when there aren’t better options and users need to be protected, use defederation, that’s what it’s for.

But at this point, I’d try to talk or have our admins talk to the instance admin first.

finder585,

Exactly, defederation is a nuclear option that affects everyone on both instances.

Zander,
@Zander@pawb.social avatar

Just blocking the community doesn't prevent the users in that community from harassing minorities and generally spreading disinformation and hate. It's offloading extra moderation work to every instance who federates with them. Unless that instance is also okay with fascists interacting in bad faith, of course.

UrbenLegend,

It could be extra moderation work, but I think it’s a bad line to cross to assume everyone on an instance is guilty before they’ve actually done something bad.

Bad comments can come from anywhere though and mods still have to remove them.

HobbitFoot,

No one is saying everyone in the instance is guilty; people are saying that the instance is going to become toxic to the point where it becomes hard to tell.

If you are in that instance and don't want to tied to this rhetoric, talk to your admin about banning the Donald.

UrbenLegend,

No one is saying everyone in the instance is guilty

Defederation is basically treating them like so. I mean, I get it, moderation is hard AF, but pre-emptive defederation when we haven’t even seen a ton of toxicity from sh.itjust.works yet is not a good precedent.

meldroc,

Yes! Hold the instance owners accountable for allowing that shit to fester and be rebroadcast.

Nine people dining at a table with a Nazi means you have ten Nazis.

Wander, (edited )
@Wander@yiffit.net avatar

You've got a good point. Ultimately every instance is responsible for its users and their behavior. Harassment should not be tolerated.

SIJW needs to make a decision. IMHO it's perfectly fine to say that your instance is not prepared to deal with that kind of shit regardless of how open and accommodating you want to be.

If they believe there's a space for "moderate trump supporters" that's their decision but they are on the hook for any harassment caused by their users.

Lols,

the users in that community is one person

krolden,
@krolden@lemmy.ml avatar

Seriously. Defederation should be a last resort against spammers and outright attacks on other instances, not because you dont agree with a single community.

catshit_dogfart,

Historically this group has been responsible for an absolute shitload of spam and outright attacks.

I was doxxed by them. They had links to a discord group that included my full name, address, email, and phone number. There was a whole list, it’s one of the first reasons they were quarantined. There was a comment that read “anyone with spare bullets can send them here”.

This is a lot more than “I simply don’t agree with that community”. They are trash who will trash up any platform they can reach.

lukas,

Sounds like a great place to practice OPSEC. But sucks if you get doxxed for real. I hope you're safe.

catshit_dogfart,

And it was absolutely a case of negligent opsec.

I suspect what happened is that I posted pictures on reddit that I also posted on Facebook. A reverse image search links my reddit account to my facebook account, and therefore a real name and name of city. With that, the rest is public information.

It was a wakeup call that the internet contains the best and the worst of humanity, and the worst will come after you at the earliest opportunity.

minorsecond,

Wasn’t The Donald originally a subreddit making fun of trump? I saw that TD was created here but my assumption was they wanted to restore the original purpose. I haven’t looked at it since then though.

Edit: Nope. It is in fact a pro trump community.

BraveSirZaphod,
BraveSirZaphod avatar

At the very beginning, yes. The tricky thing with having fun pretending to be bigots is that you eventually find yourself surrounded by actual bigots who very much missed the fact that you were joking.

ShittyKopper,

see also: gamersriseup

Seraph,
Seraph avatar

“Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they’re in good company.”

bob,

... Albert Einstein.

just joking, it was Descartes.

falsem,

Trump was a joke until suddenly he wasn't.

Montagge,
Montagge avatar

No, he's still a joke. It's just America is a joke too.

silicon_reverie,
silicon_reverie avatar

He's still a joke, just one that stopped being funny a long time ago.

HobbitFoot,

Maybe for the first few weeks, then it stopped being a joke.

Tsinc,
@Tsinc@feddit.de avatar

theres a antifascist placeholder on https://lemmy.world/c/the_donald

minorsecond,

I think that’s the one I saw originally.

bumbly,

Friggin hilarious that one

This community exists solely to document Trumps crimes.

If you support tr*mp. If you were a member of reddit’s biggest hate community, then you will cry. You. Are. Not. Welcome. Here.

Fascism is a curse on this world.

This is a safe space for those who oppose conservatives scum.

support abortion rights.

support trans rights.

support women.

support minorities.

Destroy fascism. Destroy hate.

Amazing sidebar

watup,

God please just stop with your whining. Just block them and be done with it. How self-centered can you be to demand defederation just bc you can't deal with a political worldview thats different than yours? Screw you dude.

mrnotoriousman,

Always love when far right MAGA chuds call their fascist hate "different opinions" and other similar shit. We all see through your bullshit lol.

demvoter,
demvoter avatar

Nazis are not allowed a fucking platform! Saying that one race is better than another one is not a fucking “political worldview.” Jfc.

dreadedchalupacabra,

Found the Trump supporter.

ANuStart,

"political worldview"

Wasn't aware that violence and bigotry was a political world view

Go join your friends in your little safe spot at the_donald

ElleChaise,

Imagine believing hate is a valid world view... Sad.

niktemadur,
niktemadur avatar

Low energy. Losers!

PerogiBoi,
@PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

Hero worship of a con man is not a valid ideology or worldview.

aegisgfx877,
aegisgfx877 avatar

Its a cult, and cults always end the same way no matter how big they get.

Koolaide

TerabyteRex,

being racist isnt an accrptable world political view

niktemadur,
niktemadur avatar

And anybody who still attempts to normalize this as "a political worldview" - after all the vulgar and berserk shit that has kept on coming down for the past seven or eight years - is acting with malevolent motives in (their tiny little) mind.

aegisgfx877,
aegisgfx877 avatar

Racism is not open for debate, if someone is racist then they are excluded from the topics of politics and human rights. And being a racist does not give someone a personality either. The far right cannot handle those facts.

killbot_gamma,

intolerance is the cancer that kills the tolerant society. is it really that hard to say racism bad?

anjo_bebo,
anjo_bebo avatar

I know right? But but but both sides should be able to.... No the fuck they shouldn't.

daniel, (edited )

I guess racism is a worldview? As long as individuals can just never visit that dark corner of the Internet, it doesn’t need to be technically defederated, thereby not blocking other non-fascist and racist communities. (To block those communities, just visit: https://kbin.social/magazines?q=thedonald and hit the ∅ )

rist097,

I opened that community, I didn't see any racist posts

GreatBigJerk,
GreatBigJerk avatar

Support for Trump is inherently racist, homophobic, transphobic, and misogynistic.

rist097,

Not being from USA, I could not really care any less about Trump.

But your take is just insane in my opinion.

To me it seems like that the hate towards Trump is purely political, and I did not really see a strong evidence of him being that wildly racist

guyman,

Good lord. These are the people wanting to control what others see. It's insane the hoops they have to jump through to seem legitimate.

Just say, "I don't like Trump and I don't want anyone else to see support for him." You'll come across as more genuine.

Dio,
Dio avatar

No it isn't. Get your head out of the sand.

GreatBigJerk,
GreatBigJerk avatar

lol, okay

aegisgfx877,
aegisgfx877 avatar

Im just going to put this out there, if you enable any criminal to commit more crimes, then you are culpable for the crimes he commits. The same goes for supporting any political candidate who commits crimes, you are supporting those crimes as well, including all past and present and future crimes.

I have no problem with criminal who have paid their debt to society and are generally repentant of what they have done.. so once donny has done his time and publicly repents for the crimes he committed, then I'll be fine with him too and his supporters.

rist097,

Supporting Biden and Clintons also makes you complicit in crimes they committed all over the world? I have nothing against that statement, but you should really keep the same standard for everyone and not be selective.

guyman,

If you don't want to see it, you have the tools to block the community. Users should also have the ability to block entire instances. Instead of trying to push your agenda onto everyone else, maybe join an instance like beehaw that is already doing that. You'll be much more welcomed there and won't be ruining things for people who prefer to moderate themselves.

!deleted107246,

deleted_by_author

    •
    GreatBigJerk,
    GreatBigJerk avatar

    Banning white supremacy is not the same thing as making an echo chamber.

    !deleted107246,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    demvoter,
    demvoter avatar

    Deplatforming works. Don’t give any oxygen at all to fascists.

    Using a differences-in-differences approach, we show that on average the network disruptions reduced the consumption and production of hateful content, along with engagement within the network among periphery members. Members of the audience closest to the core members exhibit signs of backlash in the short term, but reduce their engagement within the network and with hateful content over time. The results suggest that strategies of targeted removals, such as leadership removal and network degradation efforts, can reduce the ability of hate organizations to successfully operate online.

    Source

    !deleted107246,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    GreatBigJerk,
    GreatBigJerk avatar

    Defederating helps because it limits their reach to a wider community. They're currently a small group because Lemmy and Kbin are new. If they're left unchecked, they will grow.

    You are never going to eliminate groups like this, but deplatforming them prevents their ability to radicalize more people.

    dreadedchalupacabra,

    I'm Jewish. They think I have secret space lasers that start forest fires. No, I don't have to "give them a space so I don't have an echo chamber", a lot of them want me dead. This isn't about politics.

    rist097,

    There are actually moderated instances that have similar views as yours, you should look at beehaw.org. No reason for you to be exposed to the content you are sensitive to if you don't want to. This is the beauty of lemmy in my opinion

    guyman,

    Great point! I think beehaw is a wonderful place for those who want others to dictate what they see. This solves the problem for everyone, except those who are going out of their way to push an agenda on others.

    WhiteOakBayou,

    Maybe you should switch to beehaw. I think they align more with your interests

    Dio,
    Dio avatar

    Haha, you likely have a point. Judging from most of the whinging responses, a lot should consider joining beehaw.

    genoxidedev1,
    genoxidedev1 avatar

    Currently blocking everyone that downvotes this post, wish me luck!

    density,
    density avatar

    Where is that info available?

    genoxidedev1,
    genoxidedev1 avatar

    If you're on kbin hover over "more" below your comment, click activity and then look at "reduces" which are the downvotes. I'm unsure how to do it on lemmy though I will have to look.

    Edit: same works on posts (all posts not just yours)

    WHARRGARBL,

    Thank you!

    TheDeadGuy,
    TheDeadGuy avatar

    Careful, some people might be downvoting because they don't want the community to get attention

    genoxidedev1,
    genoxidedev1 avatar

    True, and I thought of that as well, but I'll just have to take the chance that 1 of those 16 people is like you said because I don't want to have anything to do with the other 15

    TheDeadGuy,
    TheDeadGuy avatar

    Your numbers may be backwards though, that group of people aren't really early adopters

    Plus they've been banned for a while and have a few platforms of their own by now

    genoxidedev1,
    genoxidedev1 avatar

    Well anyone who doesn't support that community should either upvote the post or not vote at all I don't care if this post gives that community attention, let the users that support Trump go over there so that we know where they are. Makes it easier to get rid of all of them at once.

    I just want to be proactive, so if my blockhammer hits someone who is not in favor of that community thats their problem but really I am not a power user so neither of us would miss out on anything anyways.

    rist097,

    Allowing the community to exist is not the same as supporting what it stands for.

    A lot of people including myself, do not really care about Donald Trump (not from USA), but just supports free speech in general.

    genoxidedev1,
    genoxidedev1 avatar

    If you don't care about Trump you wouldn't miss that community anyways. The Venn diagram between apathy and support might as well be a dot in a circle. Free speech should have limits tolerating intolerance is stupid and has been proven time and time again, it's sad that people just forget history. I'm from Germany and I still do not support the regressive party of the USA.

    rist097,

    I never noticed it being banned as I never cared about it. People who noticed are people who interacted with them, either supporting it or going there to get offended. But one of the reasons leaving reddit is censorship of different opinions, I don't want the same to happen here.

    I saw plenty of leftist being intolerant, but noone thought about censoring them. Being from a country that had great casualties due to nazi invasions, I am careful to who I am calling a nazi. Leftist calling everyone they disagree with a nazi, is trivializing how horrible those people really were.

    razorwiregoatlick,
    razorwiregoatlick avatar

    Thanks for doing me the favor. Since I will get blocked shortly let me just say before I go, Donald Trump is the biggest piece of shit ever elected. He is a national embarrassment and you all look like fucking sheep following him as he steals your money and makes fun of you! Peace out dumb asses!

    Secus,

    Feel free to leave and go back to Reddit. You don't get to decide what any other user here interacts with.

    AlmightySnoo,
    @AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world avatar

    FYI you can block a community. And I'm not a fan of echo-chambers. Whether you like Donald or not, I believe that as long as the content is not illegal, users should just block that community if they don't wish to see or amplify their posts. You're merely reinforcing their belief that they're being "persecuted" on the internet.

    WorkIsSlow,

    I think conspiracy theorists and nazis should feel persecuted.

    I don't think the answer is to give them a platform as if their ideas are somehow valid or worth discussing. To treat those ideas as equal to others is to elevate them.

    tux,

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

    We have to be intolerant of intolerance. The paradox of tolerance is a great read.

    guyman,

    That's fine, but understand you don't speak for everyone. That's why individually blocking users and instances is the right move. Falling down the path of dictating what others get to see is tyranny. Users should have the option to block entire instances as well.

    WorkIsSlow,

    Indivually blocking users, communities, and instances still allows those communities to grow. Saying, "if bigotry bothers you just don't look at it," does nothing to get to the root of the issue. The problem is not just that some people don't want to see bigots. The problem is that we are allowing for a place that nurters the growth of bigots.

    DLSchichtl,

    The problem is not just that some people don't want to see bigots. The problem is that we are allowing for a place that nurters the growth of bigots.

    Ex-fuckin'-actly.

    guyman,

    It's good to be able to block a community. Unfortunately, some children think they should get to dictate what others want to see. It's also bad that users don't have the ability to block entire instances.

    WorkIsSlow,

    Blocking indivuals, communities, and instances is helpful for the individual, but it does not deal with the root of the problem. Allowing a space for bigotry to grow.

    This isn't the same as people wanting to block your favorite hobby or something. I don't think it's a good thing to provide a space for bigots to share their ideas.

    Wander,
    @Wander@yiffit.net avatar

    Admins can remove single remote communities instead of having to defederate the whole instance completely.

    Ertebolle,

    This seems like a good compromise; defederation is an extreme step and ought to mostly be reserved for behavior that threatens the whole network (rampant spambots e.g.).

    silicon_reverie,
    silicon_reverie avatar

    How does that work, exactly? I though defederation at the instance level was the only real tool.

    Wander,
    @Wander@yiffit.net avatar

    If you're an admin you can visit any remote community and click on "remove". You can even remote comments or posts from being visible to users of your instance. It's not ideal because it's on a case by case basis instead of it being an instance-wide silence which is often a better solution that doesn't require you to hunt down remote instances and remove them manually while it also doesn't break federation.

    PotjiePig,

    Mate just block it and move on. # You can't stop communities from being what they want to be. It will just form somewhere else. There's a fine line between keeping illegal stuff, harmful trolling and bots off the instance and just straight up policing free speech. At least there everyone knows where they are and can block them once.

    I'd much rather that than play whackamole everytime the Donald pops up under a new banner.

    CynAq,
    CynAq avatar

    I just preemptively blocked the community for my account. I'd recommend everyone do the same until, and if they prove to be a problem.
    I think instead of calling for pre-blocks or defederation of entire instances, we have to be vigilant and keep a close eye on the discussions going on around us.

    I'm saying this not because I'm an "enlightened centrist" living in a delusion of tolerance or a fascist in disguise. I am as left leaning, antifascist, and antiauthoritarian as they get. I'm just saying this as I know from experience that there's no real way to eliminate people with bigoted views from our communities other than on an individual basis.

    Ban an entire instance, you'll still have to block the individuals if they come one by one to stir shit up on your turf. Just skip the first part and go for the individual communities and users. They will simply find each other and form groups, as instances or otherwise anyway.

    I know it's not ideal, but there's no real way to prevent these fascist groups from forming anywhere there's a large enough number of people. We can only block our own interaction with them and form counter groups, and actively fight against their bigotry.

    I believe this is the sad truth we all have to live with, at least for the time being, because I can't see defederation as an effective tool.

    Hawne,
    Hawne avatar

    Totally agreeing. I remember of my BBS and Usenet days and we're facing a somewhat similar situation: in a distributed architecture we will be dealing with unsavory individuals and communities. We definitely will.

    I was talking about this exact situation the other day with a reddit-migrant (net)friend of mine. We were debating on how and where to move the (somewhat important) France subreddit, as for now the most populated French community in the verse is hosted on an instance relaying lemmygrad - which raises some concern.

    Well, I talked to him about the UN. Sorry to get a bit pseudo-political here but I think you'll get the idea.

    The comparison I used is that while it is quite irritating (at the moment, but not only) that Russia is sitting at the security council, it is still a good thing that it is still a member of the UN. Because what matters in the end is that we all can discuss issues and overcome conflicts in order to keep on living all together.

    And here in the fediverse we don't even have to deal with a network-wide veto from any unsavory community. Worst case, they're sitting on their "local security council" - meaning they're ruling within their own node, but as a federation we don't have to comply if thing s get really ugly.

    However in the end what matters is the federation - the UN. When talking about server-to-server or server-to-federation conflicts defederation must be the last resort, because what really matters in the end is the federation surviving. Without it we're just powerless and will soon get back to some shady reddit clone à la squabbles.

    Now, to get back to these usenet days. If you remember those days we had newsgroups varying from gardening to politics, but wa also had some less civil newsgroups including cp and alike. Most of these "worst contenders" were only relayed by a few major nodes but still they made their way through Usenet because of its very distributed architecture.

    People not wanting to have any interaction with those newsgroups could either connect to a node ralaying them while not downloading their headers, or they could connect to a more "safe space" node. And on the other hand people who wished to interact with those newsgroups had to connect to anode relaying them, just as simple as that.

    I am convinced we're heading towards a similar architecture and situation. As the fediverse grows we definitely will encounter bad people and bad communities, and sometimes we will look as bad people or bad communities to others. This is my truth, tell me yours, that's the way it goes. And it's not really a big deal.

    I'm saying it's not a big deal because in the end, with a distributed architecture, the only censorship that really matters is yours. Your own filters, your choice of either connecting instance or followed communities and individuals. Due to its very nature, in a distributed architecture you are the one setting up your own barriers. Hardware and network distribution cannot and shall not do this part of the job for you, and server-to-server defed should only be the worst-case scenario in order - for instance not to relay (and mirror) cp, and for openly bot-friendly instances.

    Now mind you, am I saying there is no safe space? Well, to a certain extent. Just as in a centralized architecture each of us will make their own "nest" so to speak and will interact with the people and communities we choose. We can board a plane with a nazi without being "tainted" by its naziness and if it really unsettles us we can always ask for a separation curtain - as in, individual defederation. Those are already programmed and will be available in the next versions, allowing any user to just ignore some communities even if they are relayed by their instance.

    In a distributed architecture, we must all deal with this double-edged paradigm: We WILL encounter people and communities we don't like, but we do NOT HAVE TO suffer from them. Individual filters (and soon, individual defed) are here to help us establish our personal way of cherry-picking whatever this network has to offer.

    This is usenet on steroids. There is no premade safe space and it shouldn't be, because what matters in the end is the network and not its junk. In a distributed architecture it's mostly up to the end user to set their own junk filters.

    cendawanita,
    cendawanita avatar

    @CynAq you don't have to defed entire instances, if the instance themselves are willing to keep to their own principles. If that's not kept or they've changed their position, it is actually Fedi culture to date, to defed (this is on instance to instance basis). Federation isn't being connected to everyone, it's practicing the right to associate. That's why if you don't agree with your instance, unlike closed systems, you have the right/freedom to move.

    (The problem is the moving so far only carries your social graph not post history. So yes there is a penalty - but this also incentivize users to also push their admins to act more representatively. Assuming that's what the majority wants)

    cendawanita,
    cendawanita avatar

    Anyway, what does then tend to shake out is that the bigger instances need to decide if it's open for all or not, and the social consequences of that, and more small to midsized instances émerge.

    imaqtpie,
    imaqtpie avatar

    This is a fantastic comment. Defederation just causes more problems, as counterintuitive as that seems.

    The threadiverse as a whole has a great number of smart, reasonable people. I would like to believe that we can build a system that allows us to flourish and them to simply exist.

    But if we can't then we always have the option

    GarbageShootAlt2,

    Why should they get a platform? Why should they be allowed “to simply exist”? Because the Marketplace of Ideas will sort itself out and make sure the best ideas “flourish”? I regret to inform you that the real world doesn’t work like the thought experiments of classical liberalism, and TD’s namesake is ironically a great demonstration of that.

    Reactionary spaces should be stamped out.

    GunnarRunnar,

    What's the "more" when you defederate from problematic instances?

    It's cowardice if you ban hate speech from your platform but don't moderate the content coming from other instances that aren't up to your standard. It's having your cake and eating it too.

    It doesn't make sense that you don't trust your instance to moderate the content. Besides, isn't defederation public knowledge? So you can't just gaslight your instance's users willynilly, you'll be caught if you start defederating from pettiness.

    lixus98,
    lixus98 avatar

    I think this type of posts will have an opposite impact to what we want, we are just giving it the attention it needs to become what it was on Reddit, my recommendation? Block it immediately.

    JasSmith,

    I had no idea it existed so I went ahead and subscribed. I like to get my news from across the spectrum.

    Tsinc,
    @Tsinc@feddit.de avatar

    Doing nothing and hope that not many will find them? No, spotlight on them. The instance has to act.

    lixus98,
    lixus98 avatar

    I understand, there's many people that want nothing to do with a community like that, me included, but ultimately it will being attention to it, because some sympathize with these points of view. Hopefully the admins of shitjustworks take measures to make sure there's no racism on their instance.

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