Canonical has poisoned search results for many apps plus a Linux distro name. For example, Googling “Spotify elementary OS” returns an auto-generated page on the Snap Store site that requires using a terminal, installing a whole package manager as root, and missing out on details and updates in AppCenter.
elementary would point you to Flathub where you can install w/two clicks and then get AppCenter integration.
@michelamarie I do, and they give the exact same results. The problem is not with the search engine, but I edited the text to say "Google" instead of "search" because I wanted to be clear I meant online, Internet searches, but character limits are a thing.
@cassidy Dunno why more don't come out and say what it is. Snap and Canonical with this shit and more is a threat to the open source and free desktop and it shouldn't be supported by any FOSS projects.
A follow-up: would it be a good idea for Flathub to do something similar? I.e. have pages that explicitly list instructions to install each app on each distro listed in the Flathub setup guide.
e.g. flathub.org/apps/com.example.App/ubuntu could have an "Install Example App on Ubuntu from Flathub" page with tailored instructions for getting set up with Flathub then installing the app.
If your answer differs from above, can you comment why?
@cassidy Given distros with graphical package managers are already integrating Flatpak support into them, I think it'd be a bit redundant, assuming their users are using those solutions... with Snap, they're explicitly having to provide instructions on ensuring Snapcraft installed, whereas Flatpak is usually integrated comparatively seamlessly, as distros are generally broadly and actively supporting it within their software...
@WolvericCatkin there are a number of supported distros that don't include it/require setup. For example, on elementary OS which uses Flatpak, you can't just search AppCenter by default; you have to download the .flatpakref file from the web, open it, tell Sideload you trust the app, and then choose to install. That makes sense for elementary, but for a newcomer saying "how do I get Discord on elementary OS," would the web page be a help? Is it appropriate for Flathub to be the one hosting it?
@WolvericCatkin to be clear I'm not saying you're wrong, just trying to make sure we understand the problem space and question being asked. :) An alternate answer could be "yes, but only for distros that don't come with Flathub," or something, too.
@cassidy I think something to that effect would be useful.
I think ideally, a guide covering enabling Flatpak on a spread of distros (which could also clarify ones who support it out of the box) would help, without encroaching on resources provided by distro maintainers. This could then be pointed to by forum users for specific distros, if it would provide a useful software source for a given query...
@mks_h there is a section on each page that links out to the "get set up" docs for each distro and tells you how to use the terminal to install the app.
This idea is really for the SEO and linkability of “Install Discord on Ubuntu” or “Install Workbench on Fedora” or “Install Dippi on elementary OS” pages.
I’m not sure if it’s a good idea, but that’s what’s being proposed/discussed, at least.
That page also tells user to install via snap but apps are allowed to recommend what package management system they like.
However the fact that snaps are Spotfiy’s own recommended method for installing on Linux makes this Snap Store result much less of a problem in my eyes.
@tcb yeah, perhaps I should have used Discord or any other app as my example. The point is that the Snap Store hosts auto-generated pages for every combination of app and distro to get people to use Snaps, even when it's more complicated and not even a verified app.
@cassidy While I find those pages a bit obnoxious, maybe Spotify isn't the best example: the snap is an official package from Spotify. It's not obvious to me that it would be better to redirect people towards a modified third party version.
@jamesh they are auto-generated for literally every package and distro combination, regardless of author or verification status.
So sure, replace the Spotify Snap with the Discord Snap which is not an official or supported package from Discord, and is exactly the type of “modified third party version” you’re talking about.
@cassidy Looks like I'm the only one who voted it's completely fair so far :P
In all seriousness though, just because you dislike a technology doesn't mean it's automatically bad when they make it easy to find. There are others who like what you dislike, and we're all free to say "I don't like using this app or app ecosystem, I want to use this one instead." We seem to get along fine with this mindset when it comes to desktop environments, office suites, choice of coding setups, and hypervisors, and most package managers, but as soon as Snap enters the chat people start yelling. I don't get it. Canonical made their solution to app installation stick out in a world where no one else cared to stick out. If someone else cares, they can do some clever SEO too.
@cassidy I think it's more search engine's fault than Canonical's, but they don't get out completely free either, as they're who are pushing SEO boundaries in the first place.
@cassidy I'm spoiled by the Arch Linux wiki, and the Gentoo one before that. With Endless OS I only needed help once or twice, but turned to the forums soon
@cassidy SEO spam is getting out of hand. It’s getting harder and harder to find information online with the first several pages of results often being regurgitations of the same article (which had no content in the first place). And a lot of these results are from large corporate websites.
@cassidy One question I'd have at this point, is whether Ubuntu has permission to promote their solution as preferable for ElementaryOS... if not, they're effectively misrepresenting the stance of another organisation... even if they do, the fact ElementaryOS aren't documenting it directly is questionable and somewhat confusing, and potentially tarnishes their reputation, if it doesn't meet the typical standards of their software...
@WolvericCatkin I mean it is technically informational and not necessarily inaccurate or blatantly illegal or anything. So there is almost certainly some fair use argument when it comes to trademarks. It’s more about the social angle than the legal angle.
@cassidy Yeah, to some degree, this is only really a problem because it's more of a blindspot on the part of Elementary themselves... most distros have pages which can be indexed by search engines, where the packages they distribute can be viewed, as well as usually, a dedicated forum for their community, providing a reliable source of relevant answers from community members... the fact neither come up in the results, indicate they aren't as relevant, or simply don't exist...
@cassidy wait, Google's results aren't canonical's responsibility. If it's the search inside Ubuntu that's bending things in an anti elementary way then that sucks. If it's Google then why does the os you search from affect it's results?!
@cassidy Unacceptable, but also perhaps some elements of 'stop naming distros after common English words challenge, difficulty: impossible' in some respects...
@baljemmett it’s not unique to elementary OS. Canonical auto generates a different page for every combination of app and distribution including RHEL, Pop!_OS, Debian, Manjaro, openSUSE, etc.
@cassidy@baljemmett so you're saying Ubuntu/Canonical acts as a man in the middle between Google and the results presented in any browser installed in Ubuntu?!
@cassidy I think this speaks to a much larger problem, which is that search engines absolutely suck. They point to outdated information, require SEO which makes it so content is promoted based on bizarre rituals rather than actual usefulness, and are subject to decisions of executives that are focused more on advertising dollars than usability.
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