Holy shit. I just talked a cis guy on the internet down from "Let kids be kids" and got him to see why gender-affirming care for teens absolutely cannot wait.
This is one of my greatest achievements. I have a legitimate urge to take a victory lap.
@Impossible_PhD Damn. That was frikkin' perfect. And I feel that description so much, especially about shoe sizes. I'm a 14 in women's sizing. I have three pairs of Pleasers, only one of which really fit me properly. Sigh. :blobcatcry: :blobcatangry:
@Impossible_PhD@shaggyzed I don't think I've ever seen Pleasers shoes, but the way you've described them in that post, I'm guessing they turn the "annoying repetitive jokes" from one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum.
Which is hard to resolve because there's just the one brand trying to be the Spinal Tap of shoe making.
@Impossible_PhD Hi ! I've seen that your instance does not allow such long image descriptions. Here is still the transcript, so everybody can access the image's content :
when say let kids be kids I mean in my opinion let them be as they is and they can change at the age limit.
The problem ss that this isn't a harmless option. There are real, immediate, permanent, and dire consequences for forcing a kid to live through a puberty that isn't right for them.
You seem like a dude. Imagine, for a moment, that you're twelve, and all of a sudden you start growing boobs. Like, at first, seems like a novelty, right? Hey, look at this! Your friends make some jokes about them. Everyone laughs.
Now you're thirteen. They're still making jokes, and you're getting tired of the jokes. You try to laugh, but it's the same joke they've been making for a year now, and it's tiring. And your tits are still growing. Now they're big enough that you have to wear a bra any time you're out of bed. You can't work out shirtless, like you like. The sweat trickles down underneath and makes your skin stick to itself. They jiggle when you run. It hurts.
Now you're fourteen. Your tits are still growing. Why won't they stop fucking growing? You had to throw your bras away last month and get a hunch of new ones, and your parents told you that they were so expensive that you're going to have to go without new clothes for school this year, or only get thrift ones. Your friends are still making those stupid fucking jokes. You're starting to distance yourself from them. It's lonely after school.
Now you're fifteen. The doctors say your tits are unusually large for your stage of puberty and they're still growing. They say you'll get used to them, and if you don't like them, you can have them removed when you're eighteen. In three years. But there's a six-to-eight-month wait for the surgery once you're on the onramp, so it's closer to four years anyway. You had to get new bras again, and your parents made you get a job if you want new clothes for school. The customers at Burger King laugh at your tits. It's the same joke your friends started making when you were twelve. Why does everyone think it's so fucking funny? You haven't talked to any of them in a couple of months anyway, especially after John asked if he could squeeze one. Fucking gross. You had to quit the track team because they bounce so much, and the only sports bras that'd keep them properly immobilized so you can still run cost $100 per bra. The girls at school won't be your friend either, because you're a man, and they think a man with tits is gross.
Now you're sixteen...
Are you starting to get the picture here? Every single trans man lives through this if he doesn't go on puberty blockers. Every single trans woman grows thicker brow and jaw hones, has a voice that breaks and drops forever, grows and broadens, in ways that can never be undone. A torture she has to live with for the rest of her life.
I am size 11 in Men's shoes (EU 45). On the larger size, but not too bad. But in women's sizind, I'm a 13--there are only 5 manufacturers in the entire United States who make women's shoes in my size, and one of them is Pleaser. Yes, the Pleaser who makes stripper shoes. There are entire types of women's shoe that I literally cannot get, and if I want a pair of sneaker —plain old fashioned sneakers— I have to order them online and hope they're comfortable, because no store in my entire city stocks Size 13's.
Puberty blockers would've kept me from having to live this for the rest of my life.
And that's why it's an out-and-out cruelty to force trans teens to live through the wrong puberty.
I remember I had a convo with a cis gay former therapist of mine who wasn't on board with puberty blockers, but was with trans healthcare overall, only to find out he had been grossly misinformed about how puberty blockers work hence his concern.
| when I say let kids be kids I mean in my opinion let them be as they is and they can change at the age limit.
The problem is that this isn't a harmless option. There are real, immediate, permanent, and dire consequences for for forcing a kid to live through a puberty that isn't right for them.
You seem like a dude. Imagine, for a moment, that you're twelve, and all of a sudden you start growing boobs. Like, at first, seems like a novelty, nght? Hey, look at this! Your friends make some jokes about them. Everyone laughs.
Now you're thirteen. They're still making jokes, and you're getting tired of the jokes. You try to laugh, but it's the same joke they've been making for a year now, and it's tinng. And your tits are still growing. Now they're big enough that you have to wear a bra any time you're out of bed. You can't work out shirtless, like you like. The sweat tnckles down underneath and makes your skin stick to itself. They jiggle when you run. It hurts.
Now you're fourteen. Your tits are still growing. Why won't they stop fucking growing? You had to throw your bras away last month and get a bunch of new ones, and your parents told you that they were so expensive that you're going to have to go without new clothes for school this year, or only get thnft ones. Your friends are still making those stupid fucking jokes. You're starting to distance yourself from them. It's lonely after school.
Now you're fifteen. The doctors say your tits are unusually large for your stage of puberty and they’re still growing. They say you'll get used to them, and if you don't like them, you can have them removed when you're eighteen. In three years. But there's a six to eight-month wait for the surgery once you're on the onramp, so it's closer to four years anyway. You had to get new bras again, and your parents made you get a job if you want new clothes for school. The customers at Burger King laugh at your tits. It's the same joke your fnends started making when you were twelve. Why does everyone think it's so fucking funny? You haven’t talked to any of them in a couple of months anyway, especially after John asked if he could squeeze one. Fucking gross. You had to quit the track team because they bounce so much, and the only sports bras that'd keep them properly immobilized so you can still run cost $100 per bra. The giris at school won't be your frend either, because you're a man, and they think a man wth tits is gross.
Are you starting to get the picture here? Every single trans man lives through this if he doesn't go on puberty blockers. Every single trans woman grows thicker brow and Jaw bones, has a voice that breaks and drops forever, grows and broadens, in ways that can never be undone. A torture she has to live with for the rest of her life.
I am Size 11 in Men's shoes (EU 45). On the larger size, but not too bad. But in women's sizing, I'm a 13--there are only 5 manufacturers in the entire United States who make women's shoes in my size, and one of them is Pleaser. Yes, the Pleaser who makes stripper shoes. There are entire types of women’s shoe that I literally cannot get, and if I want a pair of sneaker--plain old fashioned sneakers--I have to order them online and hope they're comfortable, because no store in my entire city stocks Size 13's.
Puberty blockers would've kept me from having to live this for the rest of my life. And that's why it's an out-and-out cruelty to force trans teens to live through the wrong puberty.
@Impossible_PhD I'm a cis man so feel free to ignore this question. OTOH, I'm asking this question from the point of view of a parent that might need to face this in the future if their kids start feeling that way.
Would be an endgoal a society were we're not longer man and woman, but just people? Would also help if people would not care how other people dress?
Context: I'm trying to raise my kids so they don't think in terms of 'this is an activity for men, this other one for women'.
@mdione@Impossible_PhD „No men and women“ no. „Less pressure from others“ yes. More self-determination. More options. Maybe think of it as „gender-styles“. It’s okay to stick to „traditional“ roles if that makes them happy - unless they press other to comply.
My main problem as a nonbinary person is, that others categorize me by sight and insist on their (binary) judgement, which is especially bad in german because of our totally binary gendered language.
Second problem, somewhat related: Too many places have two and only doors - real and metaphorical -, where a broader entrance made for all would be better for everyone.
So, let people find their gender (style). Find your own and enjoy the diversity. Don’t assume their gender (be neutral until they tell you) and don’t let them press you into their roles. Don’t build unnecessary categories and make rooms open, safe and suitable for all.
> "No men and women" no.
> Maybe think of it as „gender-styles“.
I would just leave it as "styles". I think that all the current clasifications (LGBTQ+ and, yes, C[is]) are still clasifications that not necesarily reflect every body.
I have a she friend. She had a boy friend. Then she dated some women and men, so she was bi. Then two guys, so bigamous. Now back to one guy, and now a kid. What is she? What was she?
It sounds like a white person saying "I don't see color."
These facets of ourselves are central to who we are and our experience in the world. Many, probably the significant majority of us, find a LOT of joy and vibrancy in our identities. I like being a lesbian, beyond just liking women, and neither you nor anyone else gets to take that away from me.
Especially as a member of the dominant group, it's not okay for someone--you--to try to collapse those things.
@Impossible_PhD@jaddy that's exactly what I'm trying to understand. I hope nothing I say here is taken as an attempt to negate what you want to do with yourself, maybe it's because I've been 'formatted' in a culture that does not have other words for this.
On one side it looks like you want to have a label for yourself. Ok, yes, naming things make them exist... maybe I should go and read... philosophy? epistemology?
I'm not sure anymore. It would be an interesting chat over some beverage.
@mdione@jaddy in general, any attempt to collapse complexity of identity is just a veiled attempt to force minorities to conform to the dominant way of being, sometimes with small accommodations but often not even that.
Identities like trans or lesbian--these words with distinctions--are how we come to understand our own experiences. I didn't realize I was trans until I was 35 because I thought people like me couldn't be trans. It was only through expanding and exploring that identity--
@mdione@jaddy
--that I could recognize and embrace one of the most important parts of who I am.
So, yeah, when a cis, het guy talks about making that all go away? What I hear is a world where I would've been trapped in manhood forever, with no way out, because there weren't words for me to describe who I am. And saying "oh, we can just do/be whatever" is an absolute fairy tale in a world where prescribed gender is everywhere.
And even if it weren't, that's not a resonant experience for me.
@Impossible_PhD@jaddy so an ideal world would be the freedom to try new experiences, and adopt (or not) things from them, without being judged?
It's interesting because I used to label myself as a geek and hacker, but now I feel like I outgrew those labels. True, cis mostly white but poor male¹, I had many advantages that you probably didn't.
¹ Part of the reason I want to outgrow labels comes from my origins. I was born in South America, but I have mostly European 1/2
@mdione@jaddy yes, and growing out of labels is a normal thing--as is growing into them.
Labels and identities, self-made, are ways of describing ways of being. To destroy the way of describing how you are a thing is to destroy your ability to be it at all. We cannot live a life we cannot imagine, and we cannot imagine a life we cannot describe.
@Impossible_PhD@jaddy Two things to note, if it makes any difference: I'm not from US, and I don't live there. Black people to me are just people with a culture at first sight quite different to mine.
Again, I understand currently some positions have to be taken strongly just to defend a space for them to exist. I just wish you didn't had to.
Ah! Now I think I get your point. You'd like to free all beings from the (internal/external) burden/pressure to find/have/build an identity (and labels) by making the differences disappear, right?
But wouldn't that make us like drones? Not being seen as individuals, interchangeable.
I guess it would deny most basic questions all humans ask: Who am I, what's the purpose of my life, what am I good for? And ultimately: Why should I live?
But that's just academic. A society without noticable differences is simply not possible. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality. We are not interchangeable, because in certain aspects, we need different things than others.
Trivial example: "Everyone likes and eats pineapple" - "Ah sorry, I'm allergic to that. Please don't give me anything with pineapple". So, in a way, allergies kind of define this person.
In a society where pineapple stuff is though to be common, they must take care of themself, inform others of their special needs, rely on their acknowledgement and respect or they will suffer, get ill or die.
Meaning: There'll always be a norm, a mainstream, a kind of common majority, therefore there'll alwys be some who don't fit, can't fit, suffer, get ill or die from it.
Every difference to the (non existent) "norm" comes with some burden, because of the difference. (you scrape along the norm simple by being yourself)
I agree that we should lessen that burden, but denying or being blind to it won't help. It would only make being different harder.
So, the best way to make life easier is to embrace diversity, rsp celebrate infinite diversity in infinite combinations 🖖
@mdione gender abolition, which is what you're describing, is not a real goal. It's what feminists fought for in the 90s and early 00s, but has been largely abandoned for a simple reason:
Gender abolition in practice becomes the abolition of womanhood in less time than it takes to cook an egg. As such, attempts to do so end up reinforcing patriarchal systems of oppression, not tearing them down.
There's a lot of reasons for this, but one of the big ones is the deep-rooted treatment of the--
@mdione
--feminine as the marked or aberrant gender, while masculinity is natural. This comes from patriarchy itself, which treats being a man as a default state of humanity, when it isn't.
And all that ignores the fact that a lot of us--myself included--love our genders, and would never willingly give them up (th other main reason degendering immediately becomes the extermination of the feminine--men like being men).
What trans folks want is a de-charging of the power dynamics attached to--
@mdione
--genders, to stand down the policing of gender boundaries, and to throw the doors wide to more gendered categories, not fewer.
To draw an analogy, we want gender to have the same level of stigma and import as choosing what kind of cuisine to have when you go out for dinner. Right now, we're in 1950s America. You can have steak, or you can have seafood. We want 2020s America, with not just Mexican and Italian too, but Etheopian and someone's weird fusion ideas and so much more.
I have a girl and a boy, and the boy sometimes uses 'girly' clothes handed down from her sister. He uses and likes pink, and luckily my daughter has gone through the pink phase. Yes, not that it would be bad if she just kept on it, I hope you understand what I mean. The only thing we're not so sure about is to allow the boy to use dresses outside the house, mostly because we haven't seen others, and we're immigrants in a country we don't know that well.
@mdione That last part is a social and national question I can't answer for you. It has little to do with gender and much more to do with social safety, which is a problem of patriarchy, not gender.
@Impossible_PhD thanks for posting. I am mostly ignorant about this particular debate, but I feel for anyone, cis trans whatever, who has to make this kind of consequential decision this early in life. Having such a devolved sense of self that young...
@BuschnicK I mean, a lot of people DO have a pretty developed sense of self by the time they're teens. Not mature for sure, but they know who they're attracted to and who they are, pretty fundamentally.
The standard deviation must be huge though. And for better or worse as a society we've decided to exclude teenagers from voting, driving, smoking, drinking alcohol, working, signing contracts etc. I for one wouldn't have trusted myself getting a tattoo at that age. Let alone do more permanent body modifications to myself...
@BuschnicK Edit: apologies. Wow, the autocorrect on my phone fucked that up.
And I honestly don't care what you feel about yourself as a teen; it says far more about you than anyone else. I care about what the data says, and the data is crystal clear. Trans teens know what they're doing, make the right decisions, and are very happy with the outcomes many years down the line.
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