Why is it that the people who brag about being "self-made" aren't?
If you turned out successful odds are you had help, a lot of it, and a good amount of luck on top of that. Imagine being so self absorbed that you don't give credit where credit is due.
@RickiTarr I have little formal education in my profession, but I'm not self taught, I'm self learned. I've had thousands of teachers, all of whom took some time to share their knowledge, mostly for free.
It starts with one's parents. My father worked long hours, mother didn't pursue a career outside the home, my teachers didn't pursue more lucrative careers, my compatriots paid for the government to invest in education at all levels, my mentors provided uncompensated guidance, the list is incomplete.
@RickiTarr Don't remember who said it, but I still remember the line about being born on third base and thinking you hit a triple. Think that applies here really well.
@RickiTarr the whole “I built this” crap! The “self made” types ALWAYS overlook everything involved in helping them build anything. Did you cut the lumber and smelt the metal to build that hammer? Did you ship it, truck it, stock it? How does one seriously ignore that stuff and then claim that they alone did anything? Weird.
@RickiTarr having grown up among the literal crazy Rich Asians whose families inspired the book and movie, I feel I can confidently say that the biggest thing anyone who grew up rich hates (other than poor people) is the idea that they were only successful because of family. Everyone has a chip on their shoulder about this. So if one person admits to it they all have to ;) would you be able to start a 10 restaurant chain w/o daddy’s money, probably not.
@RickiTarr If you acknowledge you had help (family money, legacy university admissions, etc) then you might have to help other who need that same help instead of looking down on them.
If you "did it yourself" then you don't owe society anything so you can be a conceited prick.
@RickiTarr A lot of people are brainwashed into thinking that giving other people credit for something they might have helped with is a shameful thing. Pride does that. Ego too. Humility makes one give credit where credit is due. Most who don't are egotistical assholes.Elon, Trump and others..
My honest belief for this answer is schools. From kindergarten through PhD dissertation defense, Schools 100% absolutely drill into young people's heads that getting help is "cheating".
People carry this lesson with them into adulthood. It's one of the things that is hardest for me to break with new engineers.
Asking for help and getting help on something is not bad and it's not cheating.
I am with you on the importance of education., but
after a few years in the field I find my experience at odds with your general assessment. The schools I've seen, public and private, generally all have collaborative projects in their classes, and cooperation is always a key goal integrated into the pedagogy itself.
I would suggest some folk don't like to ask for help, maybe that's why they gravitated to becoming the engineers (they like to make their own kit)?
I can honestly say that the only K-12 school collaboration I experienced was in high school theater (which is collaborative by default). But that was an extracurricular--not a core course.
Not one of the core courses included collaborative projects.
Are your tests at your school also collaborative? That was not my experience. My general experience was that tests had to be done all by myself, in a specific arbitrary period of time, and with absolutely no additional resources or assistance from others to help complete.
I did have a few professors late in my college career that allowed for "take home" exams, particularly in my upper level physics classes. Pick up the test from the professor, you got a week to do it using whatever resources you like, and... good luck kid! Those were good tests!
@1dalm@RickiTarr no government can claim to be encouraging social mobility if they don't fund education for all properly. My education was almost entirely state funded*, and I really don't understand why that's not a good thing for everyone
*A year in the US was mostly funded by a charitable trust in the US, with some UK trusts and a bit from the US government
@RickiTarr In our society in the Western world, no one is self-made or independent. Anyone with a lot of money has it because they got it from many people. Perhaps legitimately, perhaps through less legit ways. Nonetheless, that money didn't just happen. It's the same with independence. We all rely on others for goods, services, food, roads, materials, whatever, but we aren't smelting ore, making implements from raw iron, and farming and hunting with those things. Get real!
@RickiTarr Exactly, then get pissed off when we try to claw some back through taxes. I'd like a billionaire to explain to me why they don't have to pay for the infrastructure they so much benefit from.
@RickiTarr Ricki: Self made is but a myth...lol. I think along the way, these so called "self made" people become narcists due to getting help from everyone 😂😜. Then they'll develop this "me" only mentality and forget about how they got there... I mean, I'm sure there are individuals that succeeded on their own, but I think that's a rare scenario...
@rlstone4dems It's just this idea that they worked hard, and yeah I have no doubt they did, but so does everyone else, so they are missing the vital component
If Bill Gates had been born into a family living in a favela in Rio, or even an outport in Newfoundland, I don't think there's much chance of him being anywhere near as successful. Born into a fairly well to do family, with the right connections, at the right time helps enormously.
@Sir_Osis_of_Liver@RickiTarr Gates might not be the best example. His father was a lawyer, but his money really didn't have much to do with Gates' success. The guy was a brilliant coder as a kid. He got his start because his school held a rummage sale and bought a computer.
We'd never have known he was brilliant at coding if he'd never had access to a decent school, let alone one selling off computers.
He's about 20 years older than I am. The schools that I went to only just got computers for office staff in the early '80s. That he had access in the late 1960s, early '70s is pretty remarkable.
I was one of the first years that had access to the school's computer lab, with then new Commodore PET 4016 or 4032. We had one class a week, and no after hours access.
I just want to be clear, Gate's talents for coding and business were the determining factor in his success. I'm just saying he started with a tailwind that helped enormously.
@Sir_Osis_of_Liver@farbel@RickiTarr I sometimes think about Mozart having been born into a musical family, his father with a secure job as a court musician. How many Mozarts have been lost to us because they weren't born into such favourable circumstances?
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