Rishi Sunak says people ‘can’t be any sex they want to be’ in new swipe at trans community

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has launched yet another attack at the trans community by saying that people “can’t be any sex they want to be.”

He made the remarks during his closing speech at the 2023 Conservative Party conference on Wednesday (4 October) afternoon.

At one point, Sunak said that people shouldn’t be “bullied into believing people can be any sex they want to be” as he made clear his stance on trans people.

“We are going to change this country and that means, life means life. That shouldn’t be a controversial position. The vast majority of hard-working people agree with it,” he began. “We shouldn’t get bullied into believing people can be any sex they want to be. They can’t,” – Rishi Sunak

“It also shouldn’t be controversial for parents to know what their children are learning in school about relationships.

“Patients should know when hospitals are talking about men or women,” which was met with a large applause.

He went on: “We shouldn’t get bullied into believing people can be any sex they want to be. They can’t.”

“A man, is a man, and a woman, is a woman, that is just common sense,” he added, to yet more noise from Tories in attendance.

Many on social media site X (formerly known as Twitter) reacted to the comments, accusing Sunak of making “persistent attacks” and labelling him “disgraceful”. “A man, is a man, and a woman, is a woman”

One wrote in response: “Trying to distract people from his government’s corruption and incompetence by attacking some of the most vulnerable people in society. Vile.”

Needlessly stirring up hatred where it is unjustified to make a cheap political dig, before going on to claim the country is wonderful because of its tolerance. Disgraceful excuse for a PM,” another went on to add.

Sunak can go and do one. Pandering to middle class transphobes isn’t the election winner you think it is,” someone else echoed.

“The persistent attacks on not only one of the smallest but most at risk communities is vile. Absolutely disgusting party through and through including anyone who supports them,” a social media user weighed in.

It comes after Health Secretary Steve Barclay outlined plans yesterday (3 October) to ban trans women from accessing female NHS wards.

This has since been backed by other senior Tories such as Home Secretary Suella Braverman.

LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall criticised the announcement, labelling it a “cynical attempt to look busy” instead of actually improving women’s healthcare.

Addressing party members in Manchester, Mr Barclay said: “We need a common-sense approach to sex and equality issues in the NHS – that is why today I am announcing proposals for clearer rights for patients.

“And I can today confirm that sex-specific language has now been fully restored to online health advice pages about cervical and ovarian cancer and the menopause.

“It is vital that women’s voices are heard in the NHS and the privacy, dignity and safety of all patients are protected.”

The post Rishi Sunak says people ‘can’t be any sex they want to be’ in new swipe at trans community appeared first on Attitude.

TheyHaveNoName,

Yes, I’ve heard from all my friends and family in the uk over the past few years: they’re not worried about low pay, high mortgages, fuel cost soaring, crumbling transport, NHS waiting lists, unaffordable rent and housing. No, they hide at home to avoid roving gangs of transgender warriors convincing them that they have to change sex. What an arse he is

tony,

What a knob.

OmegaMouse,
@OmegaMouse@feddit.uk avatar

How long til we can vote the tories out?

moreeni,

I’m sorry but the only way to have your rights guaranteed is to fight for them, not vote

OmegaMouse,
@OmegaMouse@feddit.uk avatar

In what way would you suggest?

moreeni,

Is ignorance a national sport in the West? Organise, rally people, strike, protest, annoy the shit out of lawmakers who threaten you.

Gather a big force that could potentially organise a big riot.

Sun Tzu said:

Subjugating the enemy’s army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence.

That means you, most likely, won’t have to actually riot, if they see the community is organised they won’t risk a direct confrontation and would give in to your demands.

There are tons, tons of guides online on how to protest, organise, even how to go full guerilla. Just do not let your existance depend on a freaking vote.

OmegaMouse,
@OmegaMouse@feddit.uk avatar

Ignorance? I’m well aware of the methods you’ve suggested, I was just wondering what exactly you were referring to when you said ‘fight for them’, and what you consider to be the most effective method.

Unfortunately I don’t think it’s as effective as you think (at getting people to give into demands). Thousands of people protested after Liz Truss’ resignation asking for a general election last year. Rishi isn’t going to call a general election any earlier than he needs to because he knows the conservatives are likely to lose. That said, yes I do think protests are a good way to drum up support and encourage people to vote. Despite what you may think, voting is important.

moreeni,

Those protests were so big I only found a single article about them. Protesting means doing at the very least what the French were doing. Block roads, wreck havoc, make transphobes disappear. Raising a big group of people would only work if they were organised and could, ahem, do something to the government.

Voting is only impactful to a certain, little, extent, when the government tells LGBTQ community they don’t and/or shouldn’t exist and the plan to fight back is to vote harder then something isn’t right.

Mrkawfee,

Their term ends in January 2025 but Sunak will call an election before winter when it’s too cold to go door knocking and flyering so likely in the Autumn meaning there will be another year of this madness.

java,

We shouldn’t get bullied into believing people can be any sex they want to be.

Does it work like that? From my understanding, a lot of biological and psychological factors play a role. I’ve listened to a couple of lectures about that, I was surprised how complex it is. I’d expect from someone in his position to be more educated on the topic. But he probably doesn’t care. For him trans people is just a safe enemy to create and to attack. Too many politicians on the West follow Putin’s and Orban’s steps. That’s worrying.

sapient_cogbag,
@sapient_cogbag@sh.itjust.works avatar

We shouldn’t get bullied into believing people can be any sex they want to be. They can’t

They can’t

Sounds like a challenge for transhumanist tech to solve 😎✊⚧️Ⓐ💻.

(Other people have covered the factual incorrectness here - the short of it is that (1) gender =/= sex and (2) “sex” isnt some monolithic thing but a complex, multi-axis thing itself - most of these axes are changeable to various degrees as well ^.^)

apotheotic,

I just want it to end. I’m so tired. I’m so very tired. Why can’t people let trans people exist.

Chariotwheel,

Because a lot of the usual minorities are not acceptable to dunk on anymore. Wider society has accepted gay people mostly as normal, so it's not as acceptable as it used to be to have a go at them. Trans people? Now, they're not seen as normal, so they just getting harder on them.

Additionally there is a trend of US politics carrying over and people like Joanne K. Rowling and her transphob friends that lobby against trans people.

Kirkkh,

Right…because a person isn’t a “sex.” That’s like saying people can’t be a tooth or strand of hair. Gender is something people do. Genitals aren’t sentient. I feel like this isn’t that hard to understand.

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Genitals aren’t sentient.

My penis disagrees, but he’s kind of a dick.

Occamsrazer,

Maybe I’m not understanding your comment, but in certain contexts, gender identity is not relevant but biological sex IS, such as in treatment or early diagnosis of cancers that are specific to one sex or the other. Hospitals need to be able to communicate verbally and in email or written correspondence about these things, but if language is obfuscated to the point where it is not clear what that individual’s risks are (based on their sex), then it is only that individual who will be worse off for it. This point doesn’t need to be extrapolated to larger contexts for political power, but it should also not be ignored because of possible implications to larger gender identity questions.

crapwittyname,

The terms AFAB and AMAB serve perfectly well for this medical purpose. Equally, an extra column for gender. Gender: M, Sex: F.
Not that tricky really. Doesn’t need to go any further than that.

Angry_Maple,
@Angry_Maple@sh.itjust.works avatar

To be honest, it might not hurt for them to do some of those tests anyways in some circumstances. Some people might go through their entire life without knowing that they have both types of internal reproductive organs. Hell, some people don’t know that a majority their organs are inversed from the normal positioning. (Uncommon but not unheard of.)

Aside from that, I would argue that at the medical care level, it could/should be considered private medical information. Let’s say hypothetically that someone has severe PCOS. Having PCOS increases the risks for certain cancers, but it’s still unnecessary for anyone other than their doctor to know about it.

If you’re in the emergency room, they’re probably going to be doing various tests on you if you have severe symptoms. If you have severe abdominal pain, you’re probably going to get an ultrasound. You’ll probably get bloodwork tests that look at various hormone levels. (Pregnancy and a certain testicular cancer share some of the same flags. Certain hormone levels can also indicate thyroid issues.)

If someone goes to their doctor with complaints about their own reproductive system, I would hope that their doctor tests and treats them for that problem. Again, intersex people DO exist, so proper investigation should be a thing already. Even with CIS people, not everyone looks the same, and I think that it would be a shameful reason to let a person die.

Occamsrazer,

Yes, everyone is unique to some degree. For instance my wife’s uterus is slightly tilted. It rarely matters, but every once in a while it causes discomfort. Knowing this, doctors don’t need to over react to additional and unexpected discomfort during pregnancy. But this isn’t relevant most of the time, so hospitals focus on factors that help quickly and efficiently diagnose the issue. Age and sex are probably the biggest of these factors, along with medical history. Gender identity is usually not important, though in some cases it could help identify someone who is intersex. But these cases are rare enough not to warrant their own check box, much like a tilted uterus.

crapwittyname,

Gender identity is important in all contexts because it helps you to make someone feel comfortable. This is critical in providing medical care.

m0nky,

Okay, someone please help me understand as I genuinely want to.

I fully understand gender neutral (I am bringing up my own children to not restrict their behaviour and personalities due to gender norms because of the the sex they were assigned at birth), I understand being born ‘male’ but feeling more like the societal definition of a ‘girl’ in terms of both physical and social characteristics. I understand the difference between sex and gender.

I understand and believe that our body is our own and if somebody wants to change their body they should be able to do so as they see fit, including changing it to meet the societal norms in terms of appearance of another sex.

But here is what I don’t fully grasp (but would like to) - why is it wrong to say that those born with a biologically male body should go to the male ward in a hospital? Isn’t that where they would receive the best treatment for themselves? Aren’t gender pronouns useful when distinguishing between biological differences in the medical field?

I don’t mean any offense to anybody with these questions. I fully support everyone’s right to identify as anywhere on the spectrum of the social construct of gender. Also, if there is a more suitable community for me to ask these questions in, please do share it.

Chetzemoka,

Hi, I’m a nurse so let me chime in here from direct experience.

those born with a biologically male body should go to the male ward in a hospital? Isn’t that where they would receive the best treatment for themselves? Aren’t gender pronouns useful when distinguishing between biological differences in the medical field?

NOPE! Unequivocally NOPE. We don’t separate hospital wards based on gender (in the US). Your gender has absolutely zero fuck all not one thing to do with your general biology and medical care. Doesn’t change or impact what we do in the least regarding your internal organs - heart, kidneys, lungs, all get approached the same.

What does change what we do is your weight which affects medication doses. And in very, very, very niche specific situations the anatomy of your genitals changes what we do. (Say, if you’re having a problem urinating, the length of your urethra and any potential obstacles like a prostate will matter.)

But see, here’s the things about that: We can’t approach the genital anatomy of two different individuals who both identify as male with the exact same treatment plan. The exact things we do are hyperspecific to the particular anatomy of that individual person. So if we’re dealing with a trans woman who didn’t have bottom surgery and still has a vestigial penis, then it doesn’t make any difference that she’s trans. We need to approach the anatomy that is present in front of us, whatever shape and condition it’s in regardless of the sociological characteristics of the person to whom the anatomy is attached.

I think part of the confusion in the general public with medical care is the assumption that everyone who identifies as the same gender as you has very similar anatomy to you. Let me tell y’all, I have seen more genitals than a Las Vegas prostitute, and there is more variation than I would ever have imagined. You can’t go by a person’s stated gender and know exactly what you’re gonna get, even if that person is cis. The number of times you lift that gown on somebody and go, “What the fuck is going on here?!” that has nothing to do with a person being trans or not, y’all just have no idea lol.

All medical care is approached specifically toward you as an individual person. Your particular responses to medications (which we can’t predict by the way - there’s an absurd amount of educated trial and error involved) and your particular anatomy. And 90% of the time, the response to anatomical variations is just “Huh, that’s unusual. Anyway, you can pee without any problems, right? Ok good idgaf ¯_(ツ)_/¯”

The only time your sociological characteristics come into play is when I’m talking to you about your life, providing education, trying to understand your obstacles to medical care.

ryi,

A couple points to get you started:

  1. It isn’t really the case that said wards are specialising in the way you’re describing, but if they did, why wouldn’t you want (e.g.) all women (cis or trans) who are expecting their blood test results to reflect a certain balance range of hormones, or whose body fat locations and distributions are coded to be the same to be treated together? Especially after SRS, what benefit do you see from placing them in a “men’s” ward?
  2. I understand you’ve drawn a distinction between “sex” and “gender” but “biological sex” isn’t binary, it’s bimodal, and although we don’t yet fully understand how it comes to be that people are gay or trans, there are a lot of compelling reasons to suggest that a lot of people may be trans for biological reasons. In which case, if you want to look at it from a diagnostic perspective, you’ll struggle to meaningfully define what “biologically female” means, and you’ll be more inclined to see it as “has had/not had high exposure to testosterone during formative years”. And as a trait, that can occur also to cis men and women alike, for multitudes of reasons. Biology just happens to be quite complicated, is all.
m0nky,

Thanks for the reply. I’m going to pick out a couple of specific points to check my understanding.

!why wouldn’t you want (e.g.) all women (cis or trans) who are expecting their blood test results to reflect a certain balance range of hormones!<

Are you referring here to individuals who have undergone hormonal replacement therapy? If so, yes, that I totally understand and hadn’t considered.

!“biological sex” isn’t binary, it’s bimodal,!<

Okay, so in very simple terms, we’re saying that biologically, man and woman isn’t such a clear distinction, for a very simple example, some men have much higher levels of testosterone, etc.? If so, I can understand that too. But, I suppose it is the actual biological parts that are different, which I was thinking about.

So, if somebody with born as ‘female’ body parts undergoes hormonal and sex changing therapy, their reason for being in a hospital is probably more important than the sex they were assigned at birth, and so they should be able to choose the best option for them?

Am I right in thinking the main issues is that we have created a society in which sex and gender were separated and defined so distinctly, that for transexual individuals, there just is no ‘correct’ option available to them?

ondoyant,
@ondoyant@beehaw.org avatar

But, I suppose it is the actual biological parts that are different, which I was thinking about.

one thing i think is important to recognize is that, while gender is socially constructed, so is sex to some extent. we have a number of features we generally say are “male” or “female” characteristics, including genitalia, but keep in mind that there are around 1-2% of the population that are born intersex. the way we determine sex assigned at birth is almost always through an inspection of genitalia, but for some people that isn’t conclusive.

in a lot of places, doctors will attempt “fix” these natural variations, deciding for the child which category they belong in. there is enough variation from “male” and “female” characteristics, and enough people with traits from both categories, that the categories themselves can’t really be said to have a purely biological origin, even if statistically they are highly correlated.

Am I right in thinking the main issues is that we have created a society in which sex and gender were separated and defined so distinctly, that for transexual individuals, there just is no ‘correct’ option available to them?

that’s very much part of the problem. lots of trans people really don’t fit neatly into the boxes doctors currently expect of them, especially once they’ve gone on hormones, and sharply delineating sex categories like doctors do measurably leads to less positive health outcomes for trans people. the intersex population is also affected by this kind of marginalization.

the reality is that the health of a person has a lot more to do with their specific traits than it does with the collection of traits a sex category expects them to have, which is in reality composed of a cluster of related physical, cognitive, and social traits that can vary independently of one another, and affect our health in specific ways. assuming any of these traits are one way simply because of how somebody’s genitals are supposed to be is almost always going to be more wrong than just allowing people to describe and denote their personal experience as they see fit. checking M or F on a box is, unfortunately, not really the same as just saying you have a penis or a vagina. it implies a lot more than that, even if your personal experience does not align with that implication.

m0nky,

I feel much better informed on the issue now. Thanks.

geophysicist,

Good explanation!

TwistedFox,

As someone who is not LGBTQ+ but is trying to understand it myself, the biggest key to "getting it" is separating sex and gender. Sex would be your biological make up, regardless of genital configuration. That's your classic XX vs XY vs the rare "non-standard". It's important to note that there are multiple types of different physical configurations that are "male or female" - Anatomical, Hormonal, Chromosomal, and Cellular - and they frequently do not line up 100%.

Gender is separate from this as a mental construct/thought pattern. For most people, these two things line up, and that is your standard Cis person. A Trans person is where their mental configuration does not match their physical configuration. When this causes significant mental distress we call it gender dysphoria. For the rest, we call it being Trans, non-Binary or something else.

Isn’t that where they would receive the best treatment for themselves? Aren’t gender pronouns useful when distinguishing between biological differences in the medical field?

Why would there be a difference between gendered wards in the quality of the care? Health care is tailored to the patient, where in the hospital they are located shouldn't affect it.

geophysicist,

Healthcare is tailored to the patient, and thus the specialists in the flavour of healthcare needed are assigned to the relevant wards. It’s a recipe for medical mistakes if the patients get mixed

Lazylazycat,
@Lazylazycat@lemmy.world avatar

What are you on about? When I (a woman) got eye surgery and put on a mixed ward afterwards to recover, how did it affect my treatment?

geophysicist,

Ah sorry, I didn’t realise that eyes were especially different between the sexes

Emperor,
@Emperor@feddit.uk avatar

When I was in hospital I was on a floor devoted to ailments of the leg and foot. This was divided up into wards of 5 with them being all male or all female. The only difference in treatment between the wards (as far as I could tell) is there was a male nurse as part of the team overseeing two wards (one high visibility, one standard). I’d imagine he would have been able to provide the same level of care on a female ward but it could possibly have been handy to have him on male wards for the older,. possibly more confused, patients who might accept more direct instructions from a male nurse. However, I saw no evidence for this.

anothermember,

Is this like shooting for the moon in Hearts (if enough people get that reference)? Find yourself losing so you hit every single bad point for no other reason than some esoteric reward?

Jaysyn,
Jaysyn avatar

Hitler thought the same way.

You guys need to flush the completely in this upcoming election.

rbesfe,

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

echodot,

Pointing out that people are pointing out that the Tories are like the Nazis all of the time isn’t a defence, it’s just admitting the indefensible and side stepping the issue.

If people quote Nazi like things it’s going to get brought up. My challenge to you, is to be better.

13esq,

You’re expecting that labour would be politically further in your favour. How optimistic.

smeg,

Don’t do that “they’re just as bad as each other” thing, Labour are clearly not this bad, and fortunately there are other parties to vote for!

13esq,

Am I bitter that the only way the party of Labour will take power is by being Tory lite? Perhaps.

DeathWearsANecktie,

Women’s voices must be heard*

*Unless they’re pro-LGBTQ women’s voices, in which case they can stfu

Sunak is a grade A wanker

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe not, but they can be any gender they want to be.

NightAuthor,

Also worth noting though, there are more than 2 sexes.

AllahFucksKids,

Doesn't have to go that far. How about just saying the truth: you can't make people call you what you want. Have whatever sexual proclivities you want, but it is downright irrational to get mad at people for not being pleased with Trans people wanting to be accepted for their sexual proclivities by the general public. A dude in a dress getting mad at people for not calling them a woman is just so fucking selfish and entitled I just can't understand it.

PoliticalAgitator,

And do you ever intentionally misgender cis people and refuse to use their legal names because they don’t measure up to some standard of yours, or do you reserve that shittiness for trans people exclusively?

AllahFucksKids,

Sure do. Accidentally called my cycling instructor Ma'am during a cycling class. Said "Yes Ma'am" when I meant Sir. You know what he did? He laughed. Because he's not retarded fighting some imaginary war against the pp in his pants.

PoliticalAgitator,

Sure don’t then. You openly admitted it was an accident, you just wanted to share the story so you could call trans people “retarded”.

We both know what would happen if you deliberately misgendered him and flatly refused to use his actual name because you decided your take on them was more important than their identity.

But you won’t, because he’s not on your list of people you consider it socially acceptable to be a cunt to.

AllahFucksKids,

Ohhhhohoho please, go on lmao enlighten me? What does your adorable little brain think would happen?

Fair point also, I misread that it was not intentional. Lol look, here's my address I'f you want someone to kick my ass so bad come on over:

131 NW 85th Pl Miami, FL 33126

Come on through, show me what that cycling instruction woulda done HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

KSPAtlas,
@KSPAtlas@sopuli.xyz avatar

You’re the one posting your own address here lol

PoliticalAgitator, (edited )

Thanks for removing all doubt that you’re a fucking idiot with the political views of a fucking idiot.

AllahFucksKids,

It feels good to be a fucking idiot lol. Very freeing to not be offended by words on the internet. I'd say you should try it, but it requires a level of indifference you clearly lack lol. Enjoy being the White Knight of the internet, I hope it pays well and you aren't poor! Hope your car isn't a piece of shit! Hope you can afford your own home! Have a nice life (jk btw, your angst smells of poor working class and I just literally can't get enough!) ;)

PoliticalAgitator,

I suppose if you’re going to lift your dogshit opinions from people like Andrew Tate, it makes sense that you’d also LARP as them on the internet too.

I hate to break it to you, but he’s not really a trillionaire like he claims. He’s just a rapist who is desperately overcompensating so he can pretend his father’s abuse was good for him.

I don’t know if you’re 12 and think that’s what cool looks like or a genuine adult that hasn’t realised what sad fucks your far-right idols are, but it’s genuinely embarrassing to watch either way.

AllahFucksKids,

Lol. I'm not a conservative.

HopeOfTheGunblade,
HopeOfTheGunblade avatar

Could you please explain your understanding of being trans? Because what you're describing doesn't match what I've been told about the condition.

bandoodle,

I think that’s maybe where you’re misunderstanding it. This person would not be a “dude in a dress”. They would be a woman in a dress but with a male body. So next time you see an identifiably obvious trans person, think of them as the gender they are, trapped in the opposite-sex body (like it’s a medical problem with their body), and be glad that’s not one of your battles in life, and empathetic to those who are trying to live the life they should be able to.

AllahFucksKids,

Trust me I get that this is a legitimate medical issue. There's studies that show transitioned trans people are much happier. It greatly improves their life. I'm not denying that. I'm just trying to say: asking others to be empathetic is a waste of time, and quite honestly a bit childish. It's really NOT that important to the rest of us. I personally would NEVER say anything mean to a Trans person, in real life. If I see you want to be a woman I'll treat you that way no problem. No skin off my back. AT THE SAME TIME you cannot expect to get that reaction from everyone. Trans people should just have a bit more self awareness to the fact that it is asking too much to be ridicule free, or immediately accepted. Black people were slaves for hundreds of years and still get racism today, their only crime was the color of their skin. The Trans road will not be a short one, they better buckle up or they won't make it to the destination.

HeartyBeast,
HeartyBeast avatar

A dude in a dress getting mad at people for not calling them a woman is just so fucking selfish and entitled I just can't understand it.

Generally, I tend to follow the IETF guidance on protocol - be conservative in what you transmit, be liberal in what you accept. If someone wants to be known by a particular gender, go for it. You are deliberately trying to wind someone up by using a different pronoun, it's not surpring they get grumpy. What harm does it do to you? None.

But if you accidentally do it, I agree it's probably not something to get mad over, just something to correct you on.

AllahFucksKids,

Let me be clear, I do not intentionally misgender people. I'm not conservative. I still don't see how people get mad at others for this. Am I wrong for seeing that BOTH parties are dickheads? I know I said "a dude in a dress" but I'm not going around talking like that to people in person. I couldn't give less of a fuck. That being said, I'm still aware it's just a dude in a dress. I'm still aware that you're asking too much if you think you're going out in a dress with a 5' O clock shadow and people aren't going to fuck with you.

HeartyBeast,
HeartyBeast avatar

That being said, I'm still aware it's just a dude in a dress.

That’s sounds like a particularly unempathetic way to think about the subject. You could be talking about someone who has taken the big step to have recently undergone surgery and/or hormone treatment to handle dysmorphia and has embarked on a difficult journey. A little kindness doesn’t go amiss.

AllahFucksKids,

On this I cannot disagree. I do lack empathy for many things. My life has been very hard too. Homeless as a minor hard. That teaches you one important lesson. Your problems are your own.

HeartyBeast,
HeartyBeast avatar

I'm sorry that. But I think the lesson to take away is that we desperately need better support for the homeless. Your problems shouldn't just be your own. Hope life treats you well and things look up

AllahFucksKids,

Thank you. I wish you well also.

0x815,

“It is vital that women’s voices are heard in the NHS and the privacy, dignity and safety of all patients are protected.”

As if the PM’s and his peers’ comments were not enough to clearly show that they don’t care about the people: just yesterday, U.S. company Palantir closed in on the UK health data contract with the NHS as per Bloomberg. So where is this privacy and dignity?

DJDarren,

It’s just hit me; this election cycle is their Lovely Horse. They’ve mined what they can from the coffers for now, and have no interest in presiding over the next few years of absolute fuckery, so they’ve got Dougal on keys and Jack on backing, and are fixing for a gracious defeat.

lemonflavoured,
lemonflavoured avatar

They don't need to have an election until late January 2025.

DJDarren,

Yeah, but they’re laying the groundwork now.

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